Ideal Singh Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Ideal Singh Tusin ta sirr khah liya Bikramjit Take Asprin coz Reality Bitez !! :twisted: And Sir, You need not take painz at all, Freedom Fighter is doing it for you !! Understand this. Sikhs buy an island.. possibly unhabited and allow any number of Sikhs from outside India to migrate there. Don't worry we won't send a snatch squad to kidnap you from your beloved India. GurFateh Thanx for making me understand the plot of fiction !!! This fiction could be the best seller in Hollywood err bollywood... :? ehem whatever !!! :roll: And then you would be able to raise a good money to buy a Island Best of Luck !!! But Oooooopz!! Who is gonna finace such a movie... Oh Yaa :idea: Mr. Bikz is here to finance... so Mr. Freedon Fighter you need not worry about the finances... I would be the first to buy a ticket and watch the fiction movie... 8) I hope I am not the only one... :cry: And dont forget to have send a snatch squad to kidnap me coz thatz the only way Sikhz are gonna land at that place... Long live the myth of Sikhland... why don't we have an island for men and an siland for women joined by a bridge to avoid lust Dont worry Lalleshwari Penji we would create partitionz in that Island... Humly on your side... :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 this is a DISCUSSION ideal singh, im sure u know wat that is by now, whether this idea is possible or impossible it would be good to hear all sides of the arguement rather then ur next comparisons to making films ( :? ) ur making it out as is FF has already started his plans get it into ur head ITS JUST AN IDEA!!! :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 this is a DISCUSSION ideal singh, im sure u know wat that is by now, whether this idea is possible or impossible it would be good to hear all sides of the arguement rather then ur next comparisons to making films ( :? ) ur making it out as is FF has already started his plans get it into ur head ITS JUST AN IDEA!!! :roll: So you want to sit and chew Bubblegum ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 are u tryin to be funny or something????...... u need to grow up and not act the age u was in ur avator :twisted: oh n btw theres more chance of this island being made then anyone joinng your idealism religion :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 are u tryin to be funny or something????...... u need to grow up and not act the age u was in ur avator :twisted: oh n btw theres more chance of this island being made then anyone joinng your idealism religion :roll: I would love to be a five yr old all my life... who doesnt want to be... Is there any problem with that ? <Mod Note> Steel Bangle, Lets not bring your personal likes or dislikes for each other onto the board, if you want to settle this do it over msn or pm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Hey Guyz !! Please dont forget me to call for Kar Seva when the construction beginz... Please learn to measure first! You haven’t passed the stage of “simply talking†..- measuring is another thing. Just by bullying & making derogatory on otherz, we can not influence anybodyz opinion... Itz called Supression... and itz a useless phenonmenon... Do you think you are the first person who has coined this idea... somebody informed in this thread that Equador had offered to Sikhs to buy some land from them in 1985... I know it isn’t my call here to make judgments upon you but it isn’t right for you to say that to FF. Just like you have the full freedom of posting messages , he has the same. By the way, I don’t mean to be mean or in anyway…..FF made just a suggestion , but you out of your 461 posts - …how many actually make sense or how many of actually coin your ideas, points of views…some of the posts you make such as ( Obesity in Sikhism, Thoughts of the day, gizzilion more) are useless and a waste of time. Simply, by posting stuff you try to increase your post count…and increase your so called “rank†..My congratulations goes to you …that if you only post 39 more posts, you will be a jathedar. Let me know if your having a party. In addition, you try to act so intellectual …like you have got the highest IQ or something …but you don’t know a shyt other than how to use a thesaurus, dictionary, rhyming dictionary to make your posts sound so intellectual - and honestly you take the piss and annoy countless number of people. Any good plan is ready to be implimented only when it is baked in criticizm... time and again... ie. it is critically acclaimed... Instead of arguing un-necessarily: Let allow everybody come to have a look at the blue printz and cricially analyze it... LOL, FF is just throwing out an idea, doesn’t mean he has the blue prints on his hand?? Uh huh doesn’t take a genius to figure that out…. We can not launch such a big project on our own... for that we need to think and work as a team to produce some forceful dialogue Your not a member of the team , as possibly you could imagine the result of building with a child. But before that first of all we have to remove all the hindrances that would come in our way... Friendz!! I am not at all discouraging anybody... Just representing the facts as they come to my mind... so some of the queries may be out of sequence... kindly bear with by logic... Ok here I go Agree with FF, Facts? Please explain how something can be declared as a fact (a statement of truth) when one has no clue as to what he is talking about, 2. How are we gonna convince the Sikhz to migrate to a remote alien Island... ? When you say migration, you got think of the way the Sikhs will make their living there, what will they do as an occupation, raise kids, will trade be conducted, hospitals, schools, airports, governments, courts, emergency dept. ( Cops + Ambulance+Etc.), and sooo muchh more needs to be set up first for the Sikhs and planned out before you can even begin to think of Sikhs to migrate..Honestly, by the rate of Sikhs (in Punjab) are advancing there is veryyyy slight chance that Sikhs will ever do.BTW, what is it that you consider a Sikh??-Mona, Sardar, etc, etc..As all individuals have their perception of Sikhs, its just too complicate to isolate the word Sikh to just one definition. Like what about those people that ….call them selves Sikhs, but drink, smoke, whatever….- so where is it that you draw the line between a Sikh and a non-Sikh. 2a. How are we gonna educate them about this... ? Don’t even mix education and older generation together. ..You thinking of educating are older buddiya with media , don’t even try, as they know nothing besides Chuglian 3. How many of them would actually be ready to relinquish their acres of landz in villages or their pakka homes in townz and their jobz and pensionz and what not...? Please, don’t say I don’t think outside of the box, but the truth is ….wudn’t bother giving you a ratio , but not as much as you expect …like 100-200 hundred? ..As for Punjabi Sikhs …..it’s a lot different, as beginning a new life on a different island is basically starting a new life, especially those who are in their 50’s 60’s ….and etc, as they all rely on their jameen for food, shelter, clothing, and etc. Again, apney Punjabi Sikh aren’t civilized enough to move ,yeh?? ..Again the thing is ..where do you draw the fine line between a Sikh and a non Sikh. 5. Dont you think as soon as we would announce our planz, extremistz groups would become active to take advantage of the situation...? I don’t agree with FF, as there will always be Sikhs within the Sikhs that are out there to get someone. Records, medical, police, and fully checked. Take this as a fact..-What records?? ..LOL those papers telling how much jameen they have…and where are you to obtain these records…Medical?? …There is majority of people in pinds who haven’t ever heard of heart rate and blood pressure, and you talking medical ..?? …Police?? ..Indian Police is corrupt themselves, what do they know??… They would start wielding their swords and blazing gunz... Not in "Sikhland" they won't as they will not be allowed in! And who is to enforce this law…America at its highest point, can’t control things …and yet you think our Sikhs will be able to?? …America doesn’t agree with Illegal Immigrants, yet there is how many living ..and yet like America is fully developed nation -Most taraaki in the time allotted ( least in my opinion)…and Sikhland- I couldn’t even begin to imagine. Quote: 6. Are you aware that once we declare that Sikhs have a separate Soverign Entity, the Sikhz putting up in India would become alienz in their homelandz... LOL! what? Where did you come up with this nonsense from? This is utter garbage. "Sikhland" will be set up by Western Sikhs not "Indian" Sikhs! The "Indian" gov. cannot blame Punjabi Sikhs for anything as they will have nothing to do with it Now we are even getting more complex, Western Sikhs…so basically we are trying to alter their lives for the 2nd time?? …As first they had to immigrate from India and stand on their two feet in whatever nation they ended up in…and now we are imposing the idea of moving them to a Sikhland?? …What you think?? …..By the way, why western Sikhs…when majority of the western Sikhs are altering their views , religion, culture, ideas, and etc …are following the white man’s way. And those same western Sikhs were once eastern Sikhs….and majority of the western Sikhs =white man’s way coz they would have got no valid visaz to visit India...? They could be prosicuted on the suspicion of Spying coz they know so much about the mainland of India and its configuration...? Agree with FF. Errr, all Sikhs who do not have an "Indian" passport are considered aliens, thus it won't make any difference at all. I don't see your point. 6a. Dont you think that Sikhz would be put up in Jails like those Concentration Campz being considered as traitors...? Which Sikhs? How can Western Sikhs be put in "Indian" jails? Again why ONLY Western Sikhs, Eastern Sikhs are as much of sikhs as western sikhs..If you talking about the $$$ , I think all people who have immigrated are poor than those that continue to reside...Basically, means that we couldn't afford living in India and that is why we immigrated...Basically apna immigratant can be portrayed by this analogy: Beyias/Beyiranis: Punjab as Punjabis(Sikhs): Amerika, Canada, UK, (wotever other country). Again why only western Sikhs as they are the same individuals who originate from eastern Sikhs(Punjabi Sikhs) . Once we are declared aliens, would we be able to dispose off our belongingz...? I am afraid, there would be no taker for it...? Huh? Don’t get you here. 8. Without valid Visaz how are we supposed to land on our Sikh Island... ? Please use some common sense, "India" cannot stop ANY citizen from leaving the country. Once some Sikhs are out of "India" they may apply for "Sikhland" citizenship and then have dual nationality, one "Indian" and one "Sikhand". They may also come and live in "Sikhland". India cannot stop any citizen ..?? - Well how are you to board a plane, ship wotever the means of transportation without a proper documentation?? Once some Sikhs are out of "India" they may apply for "Sikhland" citizenship and then have dual nationality, one "Indian" and one "Sikhand". So why are we trying to isolate Sikhs from India in the first place, if we are still going to have ties with India in having “dual†nationality….and you know that has to be approved by the immigration of India as well..We can’t just say “ Oh yeah …well now I got a Indian passport and a Sikhland so I am dualâ€.. 9. Are you aware that most of Sikhz working in Army would be court-marshalled at first instance... ? If they were those Sikhs, that actually wanted to immigrate …then the army can’t stop them…You can un-list anytime… 10. Are you aware that jobs of the working people would be gone in no time and their saving of lifetime would be confusicated...? Would Sikhz be mentally ready for all this...? Well those thinking of to immigrate, should know better ..and plan their lives out ….as it is , no one is requiring them. 11. Are you aware that all properties of the Sikhz would be confusicated and no compensation would be given...? Again, what is Sikh?? …and again no one is requiring them to immigrate. 12. Once we have aquired a Island... Do you think Indian Government would wait for Sikhs to complete the construction of that Island and then deport all sikhz to that Island...? Well if the Indian government is going to deport us at one time or the other…if they have so much hatred against it, don’t you think they would deport us right away??…So, lol , that means camping on your lil island. 12a. Won't they throw out all the Sikhz out of Indian boundaries at first instance...? Firstly you are wrong, and secondly can you ever imagine Sikhs being thrown out of their own motherland Punjab? Do you think that they will just lie down and give up? There will be all out civil war my friend and the Sikhs will not be the only ones, the 20 million Christians and 120 million Muslims will also rebel. "India" would be in chaos and break in to many many pieces. Sikhs will cease Punjab and declare independence! That’s basically a redundant question…agree with this whole “civil war†thing with FF…so aren’t we basically repeating history here?? …Sikhs will cease Punjab?? Well , so why are we doing the island thing again if Punjab can be just as suitable. So why try to begin this whole process of building a new island, if at the end our apney will be happy with Punjab, so shouldn’t we be working towards getting Punjab isolated…, as that seams more reasonable then building a whole new island. I guaurantee you that no Nation would come to rescue us in that case... coz India is now the most powerful emerging power in this New World Order and nobody can now dare to question Indiaz Authority...? No nation??? ….Hmmm btw India is not the most powerful emerging power in this new world order and lol explain in depth what is Indiaz Authority …other than ..corruption, and stuff of that nature… 13. How much time and space it would take to complete the task of building such a Island... ? Probably a quarter to half of a millenium...? Is it worthwhile...? Errr, last time I checked it was around 10-15 years! Holy macro 10-15 years??..You think so?? Wow!!..-NOT ..Easier said than done…It is not going to be set up in 15 years, please give me a break. India’s been settled for god knows how many years - and its still not stable…so you think those same people that have adapted India’s way of living are going to construct a WHOLE new island in 10-15 years?? Gimme a break , more like if it was to be constructed, I won’t see it as I will be dead..and I don’t know about you folks…Although, long live you all..! It is much easier for companies to make small islands as their basez coz factories dont take too much space to accommodate 500-100 people. But to accomodate millionz of Sikhz itz not easy to apprehend... What? You don't seem to understand, "Sikhland" will be a FINANCIAL CENTER not an industrial one, we will have no factories, only service industries which hardly need any space... HUHHHH?? So why are we making the Sikhs immigrate there?? How will they make living if its not industrial?? Huh? BTW, Japan’s Osaka Aiport was just as matter of building the airport ..according to ideas of other airports…It wasn’t EVERYTHING starting from scratch…And I doubt , no people live there so its totally different situation if we are talking about people living there-as we have to factor in other factors as well ... 15. Ok, Now what we have bought an Island... a simple question really: What would be the name of that Island... ? What about Sikherica, SikhLand, Sikistan, Sikhasia... Kindly suggest... First of all, get the construction going first!! 16. What would be status of the natives already living there for centuries...? Automatic citizens with full rights. So what if they preach a different religion, we cannot possibly force them to convert. And if we are having just a Sikhland…why are we getting other nationalities/religions involved- FF, you said we’d have no guns or stuff..So are we to stop these people WHO ARE THERE FIRST, to oppose us??… 17. Wont they protest against this Invasion...? No, it will inolve their consent and they will be paid since it is their land we will be buying, also they will have dual nationality, Russian? and "Sikhland"... They can stay or leave, it is their choice. Why would they want to mix their nationality with basically what we call “aliens†…Why are they the ones that would have to leave?? ….Again ahh easier said then done. 18. How would we treat the agitating Natives...? Very well, they will be full citizens. And what about those who oppose becoming citizens as all would not want to become citizens of Sikhland. 19. Would they be treated as first grade Citizenz like the rest of the Sikhz or ab-originalz... the outcastz...? Redundant question ! 20. How would we tackle them ? There is a possibility that they may revolt againt us... Then we will definitely supress them... and hence the bloodshed... Errr, no, because THEY are the one's who want to sell the land. Remember, they are not selling the whole country, just a small part of it, which will make them very rich! Money isn’t always the best solution. So, basically we are just bribing them?? .. 21. Would they be treated as slaves...? Simply a N-O, as it would give a bad image to Sikhs... 22. Would they be forced to convert into Sikhism...? No. Natives will have the right to practice their religion/culture freely, only new immigrants must convert to Sikhism. So, if they have kids what if they wanta practice Christianity, and they have kids and they want to practice Islam …and then we have our Sikhism --Mix of three in one again results to what we have today…..So how will Sikhland be different from other nations ….. 23. Does SGGS advocate forced conversionz... ? Not sure , as never read the SGGS. 24. What if they refuse to embrace Sikhism...? That’s what I am asking, who is to be the government, who is to have voting rights , who is able to run as the PM (President) ( Only Sikhs or the original people as well) …Again, easier said than done. 26. Then what would we do when they would lodge protests with UN against the atrocities by Sikhs (sounds wierd)? First of all , who is to decide right and wrong..If the original people are going to have full rights that means they can run for office , and etc…lol , so Sikhs are ok living under a NON SIKH??? I didn’t think so ………So who is to be in the GOVERNMENT, and who is to DECIDE ??? Lastly, you talked about Alaska being purchased as NASA needed something without the interruption of Russia.. For your kind information ..Russia is the closest to Alaska, than any of the other 49 states. NASA?? - In my lifetime, I have never heard of space shuttle launching from Alaska …What NASA are you talking about?? Its so late in the night, I am like barely keeping my eyes open ....But I think I hopefully said everything the way I wanted to ..I will check tomm and make additional changes..but here is enough for now , yeh:P oh yeah ..mods ...lol please kindly do not issue a warning or whatever..as i have tried to reach Ideal singh in like all means of communicating..so afterall i am posting it here...jus one time lol there is conclusion i want to add, but i will add it tomm. as i said am like too tired:p 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Desikuddi Bhainji I agree with most of what you have written. The island idea takes the prospect of Sikh sovereignity one step nearer. If this idea ever gets off then it will be the first time since 1849 that Sikhs will have-; 1. A state that will look after their rights wherever they may be residing 2. A chance to practice Sikhism in a Sikh environment, without the intrusion of a non-Sikh government 3. Provide theose Sikhs with a pioneering spirit a chance to emulate their ancestors as in the Sikhs of the Canal Colonies, the Terai and Ganganagar in settling in and taming a new environment. Ideal Singh seems to bring up arguments which have no bearing on FF's idea. I am surprised that Ideal Singh and other indians on this forum seem to be so against the idea of a Sikh country outside of India. No doubt if FF wanted to argue for a Khalistan in Punjab, Ideal and his buddies would be up in arms but I don't quite see what they can have against a Sikh country outside India. Perhaps the past decade has made many Sikhs in India so anxious to prove their loyalty to India that they have nightmares even if a Sikh country is suggested outside India. It smacks of a slavish attitude. Perhaps we should now advise Ideal and his Indians to keep out of the affairs of western Sikhs, something which some pro-India Indian Sikhs are quick to advise when we say anything about the problems Sikhs have in India. My input into FF's idea is. The island chosen must be the most sparsely populated. There are thousands of islands around the world which are uninhabited. Some are quite large abd enough to accommodate a population of 50,000 or more. I can't see any island which would accommodate all the 2 million Sikhs outside India. I think the 50,000 needed could easily be found from Sikhs in the west. So no need to snatch Ideal Singh or any other Indian Sikhs. We may have got used to the easy life here but there are many who still have the pioneering spirit of our ancestors. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Wow !! This is a real Fun now... I am simply loving these "Arguements". Bikz... it is really a sad state of affairz for the Sikhz that they can not gell together as a United Sikh Cummunity... You are already farthering yourself from the Indian Sikh Community by distinuishing between Indian Sikhz and Western Sikhz or French Sikhz etc. etc. Just grease your mind a bit and recollect who made all the sacrifices in 1984... Indian Sikhz right or wrong ? So you now want to disown them ? Real Shame... Bear this in mind while refuting all my arguementz, I am NOT against the Idea at all !! Did I ever say that this idea is a Crap ? The movie thing was just to release the pressure a bit... What I am saying is that: We can minutely analyse the pro and conz of the idea... or that is not on... :roll: One party can give arguementz in itz favour and the other against... so whatz the big deal in there... :roll: ? Just becasue the idea seemz plausable doesnt necessarily meanz itz practical. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDEAL Singh Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 I would request Adminz and Modz to wait untill desikuddi has read my response... mostly out of context but still itz my reqeust... Thanx.... Dear Desikuddi... I am NOT speechless but I wont retaliate. And Cheer up!! Look at my post count... itz reset to Zero... < <--------------- < I think that answers your main concern of unwanted Jathedar. And anytime is IDEAL time for partying!!! About the rest of your refereshing sentimentz about myself... well, I dont really care much about them coz itz entirly your personal choice... Everybody has the right to feel anything about me... but what matterz is: How I (we) takes such ill directed insults ---> I just dont feel insulted just becasue somebody said a thing to me... so I didnt feel insulted at all at this lovely above post of yourz... It was a gallant effort indeed... It is all about what is our attitude in life... Negative or Positive... I am here on this forum not to please anybody, if anybody is annoyed then thatz there attitude problem not mine... neither I am here begging for appreciation for my postz... actually they are 100% crap indeed... but I have gained a lot from you guyz... for that I will be alwayz gr8ful... but :twisted: I would continue to do my postingz... hope you are not annoyed... Just Cheer Up everybody... no need to get annoyed for a person like me... I am as un-intellectual as a five year old and I take pride in whatever I am... Innocence of a childhood is much better than bitterness of Adulthood... Humbly Love You all... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Bikramjit - You have again misread my issue on identity. My religious beliefs are not private that no one should know about them. I choose to keep religion as something which is personal to me, i use my cultural and ethnic identity to relate to other people. I have found that i can relate to the Punjabi Sikh, Hindu and Muslim with no major differences. I dont know what the situation is in other areas, but where i live is perhaps one of the most culturally mixed places in this country, however, the Punjabis are not in numbers here, even the South Asians on the whole are pretty small compared to the Afro-Carribeans, Africans, Turks, Turk Cypriots, Greek Cypriots, Kurds... I have never had any problems with a Pakistani before. I often go past Mosques (Edmonton, Turnpike Lane, Finsbury Park) and no Muslim has ever passed a comment or even looked at me in a bad way. To put it simply, my life experiences are obviously totally different to yours, and so is the area i live. Religion is not an identity of people around here and i have grown up seeing no major distinctions or difference between Punjabis of different religions. The treatment from them and their families towards me is indistinguishable. They are just the same Punjabis, of different religions. Simple as.. About being a mona, they are still Sikhs, what else could they be? I dont go to Mandirs or Churches. I attend Gurdwara when i can, i accept the one true eternal Wahe-Guru, i accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the last and living Guru, and i enjoy learning more about Sikhism. If that is not being on the right path then you can offer me your guidance being as you are an older more knowledgeable Sikh? Last point. There is no such thing as "Haryanvi" Hindu. Haryana did not exist until 1966. By your logic places such as Multan, Bahawalpur, Rawalpindi, Patiala, Kangra etc would not be "Punjab", only the Majha would.... Punjab under the British rule was defined on common culture, history, ethnic stocks, language. As most provinces were defined on these things... FF - I have no objections to a Sikh state made up of some islands, i think that is even a good idea. I still dont favor any religious government ruling in Punjab. 1) A religious government would label other native Punjabis as minorities in their own land. 2) Religion should not be used by the state to dictate how people should live there lives. Everyone has the right to make a choice and decisions for themselves. Dont infringe on this, especially in a multi-religious nation like Punjab. 3)Sikhism treats all religions as equal paths to God, so how can one religious philosophy be used to rule over others? Im glad you agree that "Hinduism" (A British colonial invention) should be exposed as the fraud it is. IDEAL Singh - How are current relations between the various different religious communities that live in Punjab? -- ----------------------------------------- This is a good discussion, but probably my last post as i am moving. Thanks FF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Alright, but why WESTERN sikhs only?? I agree with Ideal Singh the fact we are like sort of becoming 2 different faiths -if we are going to distinguish between Western and Eastern Sikhs. LOL Oh yeah but what about those that live 6 months on and off?? The thing is if we only give the right to Western Sikhs, Eastern Sikhs will rebel- and be just bunch of 'civil war' type thing. And it was mostly eatern sikhs that were involved in the chaos of 1984-and now we are turning our backs on them?? Well, even if this is going to happen with Western Sikhs My first and foremost the question is ...Where do we draw the line between Sikhs and non-Sikhs(Those that are born sikhs, but just don't follow the aspects of Sikhi) By the way, Ideal- I could care less of you becoming a jathedar...and also just cus you change your post count on one of your posts...doesn't make you CLEVER at all..!! ...Get it through your head..! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Desikuddi02 Bhainji I see where you are coming from. The reason why I chose western Sikhs is because they are western educated, they understand the way the capitalist world works and also because they will have a more money to invest. I know it sounds totally anti-Sikh philosophy but we need to be realistic. 1. The Sikhs most likely to want to migrate to this place from India will be the Punjabi farmers most of whose main desire is to get out of Punjab, earn as much money in as short a time as possible and then go to Punjab and show their neighbours how much cash they have made. Sad, but that is the attitude in Punjab at the moment. The Sikh professionals in India are unlikely to want to migrate to this country because they have high paid jobs and are a part of the system. Also being so emasculated by the events of 1984 and their desire to show their loyalty to India it wouldn't be a good idea having them there. 2. As for your comment about where we draw the line between practicsing Sikh and one just born in a Sikh family, I believe that people will always vote with their feet. If a Sikh is just a Sikh because of his birth in a Sikh family but doesn't believe in Sikhi then I don't think that such a person would want to migrate to this island. Only the most committed Sikhs would be more likely want to migrate. You only need to look at how the Jewish immigration into Israel is going. Only the most committed Jews migrate their, some even leaving their well paid jobs to set up settlements because they believe that they are contributing to the destiny of their people. The liberal jews stay on in America. As for monay, many are very committed to Sikhi but for various reasons they do not think that they can keep their hair at this stage. I don't think you can stop them migrating and why would you want to when they have so much to offer the Sikh island ?. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Sorry for the late response Bik Paji! Per here it is again: The reason why I chose western Sikhs is because they are western educated, they understand the way the capitalist world works and also because they will have a more money to invest. I know it sounds totally anti-Sikh philosophy but we need to be realistic. Western Educated?? It doesn't make them any smarter as western education has no discipline at all..I personally believe the more the discipline, the better the knowledge..At least here in America, they continue to teach your times table, and addition, and subtraction in 8th grade?? That’s pathetic...and they call that normal. :roll: :roll: , Where as in India 8th graders are learning the basic principles of Calculus. And, I can just imagine the rest of the subjects as well, no one feels pressured to learn..."or in the emergency state to learn" ..its more of a pleasure thing as far as education is concerned in West. Although, both West and East have their ups and downs, but we can't blame either one to something they have never been exposed of...Its like a basic GT(Gifted and Talented) test here in the US asks a question...Who fixes your car when its broken? ..Gives like four choices ..: Fireman, Repairman, and few others..Well, a typical American would say a Repairman as that is what they've been expose to..but if you were to ask that same question to some kid from Pendu Village...he'll be most likeley to go ..Well what’s a car or etc. , and know nothing about a repairman..The kid isn't to be blamed or neither is the education, as it is something he is never been exposed too. So, therefore I personally believe education has not a big part to play in this -we have both pros and cons on both ends. Education is more like the "geek" knowledge, never the life skills in most cases. The Sikhs most likely to want to migrate to this place from India will be the Punjabi farmers most of whose main desire is to get out of Punjab, earn as much money in as short a time as possible and then go to Punjab and show their neighbours how much cash they have made. Sad, but that is the attitude in Punjab at the moment. I am sure this basic statement would apply to many Western Sikhs as well..I am not talking about England specifically as I not know much , but America/Canada its all about having the big house, the nicest car, the nicest brand name clothes, and plenty off cash to show off with...and when is it someone ever talk about simple common sense?? Here in the West(America,Canada) ...parents be working 12 hour shifts only to spoil their kids who have no resemblance of their culture/religion what so ever. LOL, but the important question to begin off with is …..What is going to be the main source of income in Sikhland?? The Sikh professionals in India are unlikely to want to migrate to this country because they have high paid jobs and are a part of the system. Also being so emasculated by the events of 1984 and their desire to show their loyalty to India it wouldn't be a good idea having them there. You know what the real attitude of Punjab is at the moment : Just if it was in their control, they’d fly to any island/country/etc. for freedom. What is the ratio of Sikh professionals to Sikh farmers. You have to agree many of them are farmers and are all dying to like basically get out of India. You know its very true, this is basically a result of “GareebI†….Someone said it very right when they said “ ..Jeh baniya de putt jamme tehhh ek hor hatti khul janddhiii hai , tehhh jeh sardar de putt jammehhh jameen wandhi jandhiii hai, Bas ehe wandhh te sitayee Apne mundey bahrley mulakha nu jaayi jandeh hai†…So, thus …if they were given the chance to immigrate to Sikhland,..I am sure a very low percentage would say “NO†to that privilege. ..I totally lost you when you said the comment about “1984.†If a Sikh is just a Sikh because of his birth in a Sikh family but doesn't believe in Sikhi then I don't think that such a person would want to migrate to this island. Only the most committed Sikhs would be more likely want to migrate. Many families throughout the west are shaped something like this: Gursikh mom and dad…and totally “anti-Sikh†kids. So, if those mom and dad eagerly wanted to immigrate to Sikhland, where would the kids end up living and so forth…You can’t separate a family now, can ya? Although, I agree with that only those most committed Sikhs would want to immigrate, but then always we have those “flu-hees†..wanting to cause chaos and shuffle things around… You only need to look at how the Jewish immigration into Israel is going. Only the most committed Jews migrate their, some even leaving their well paid jobs to set up settlements because they believe that they are contributing to the destiny of their people. The liberal jews stay on in America. Not up with it, but I’ll be sure to check into when I have some time.. As for monay, many are very committed to Sikhi but for various reasons they do not think that they can keep their hair at this stage. I don't think you can stop them migrating and why would you want to when they have so much to offer the Sikh island ?. I totally agree, but then what about those like me?? ..Who just are interested in Sikhi, but their life doesn’t revolve around it..Basically, hypocrites..-say something else, but do something else..So, then its still too complicated where you would draw the restrictions of who is allowed to immigrate..If you allow the monay who have so much to offer …then those that trying to quit drinking/and etc might argue why aren’t they allowed to immigrate as they are basically working their way towards up being a Sikh..and etc. But, I guess that all boils down to basically only committed Sikhs wanting to immigrate, but again we always have the EXTRA. I personally say there is no way possible that we are able to build a Island which only has true Sikh Influence.! Anyways, I guess arguing on the fact who is Sikh and who is not a Sikh is endless, but this is what I have to ask you for now …the whole controversy of Western/Eastern Sikhs. Anyways, till next time take it easy.. Look for forward to your reply! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 whether this idea is real or not... i think the rule that only sikhs can come in is a bit silly... moneh should be allowed.. even people of different religions should be allowed.. but they would be able to experience a sikh way of living.. it could become a relaxation tourist spot.. which in turn could bring more people into sikhi.. and therefore more income one thing that attracts me to this idea is everyone there would go to the gurdwara at amrit vela and do their nitnem, kirtan etc.. and all partake in the same activities :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Deesikuddi02 Bhainji Don't worry about replying late, we are all busy people !! I agree with your comment about western education that's it's no guarantee of making people 'smarter'. But the reason for choosing western Sikhs is because we need to decide whether we want this new state to run along western lines or as a extension of Punjab. The problem with choosing mostly Sikhs from India is that they will bring in their 'indian' ways of doing things. As you know corruption is a big problem in India and bribery and having connections are the only ways that things can get done in India. Do we want the same type of thing in this island ?. O.K. I'm not saying that western Sikhs are less prone to corruption but when corruption is as endemic as it is in India, then choosing Sikhs from India is likely to bring the same corruption to this island as well. Your post shows that you have a good deal of knowledge of what happens in Punjab. I think some UN body recently declared India to be the 2nd most corrupt country in the world, after Indonesia which is 1st. My comment on 1984 was to do with the fact that many professional Sikhs in India have thrown in the towel as regards getting justice for what happened in 1984. They have followed the saying, 'if you can't beat them, join them'. So many of the professional Sikhs I have come across are more patriotic of India than any Hindu. So would you really want these sorts of people on this island. If this island is to truely represent Sikhs around the world it will no doubt have to raise a voice in world forums such as UN against the treatment of Sikhs in India. How can this be done when a significant amount of people of this Island are so pro-India ?. You asked about the economy of this island. Initially there will be no economy to speak of and it will take a large amount of investment from Sikhs to create an economy to take advantage of either the environment ie tourism, or natural minerals, but as FF said it will most likely be a place where service industries or banking is the main economy rather like the cayman islands. I also agree with you about the uselessness of deciding who is a Sikh or not. At the end of the day those who want to migrate there will by doing so have already shown their commitment to Sikhi, whether they are monay or keshdhari. Please don't refer to yourself as a hypocrite. Everyone is at different stages on the Gurmat highway. By just being on that the journey proves that you are not a hypocrite GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 “whether we want this new state to run along western lines or as a extension of Punjab†Both western lines or “extension of Punjab†have their own pros and cons. While thinking of that, you have to keep in mind your are also going to keep and preserve the Sikhi conduct as well. I believe as far as preserving Sikhi is concerned its going to have a better chance of survival in a Punjabi type of environment. Even in reality, we’ve experienced whether Sikhi is to rise in Western or Eastern lines, I personally believe its receiving more attention and response from Eastern lines, where it first all began. When you say ‘western lines’ ..- I think of the youth first, as they are the one who hold our future- and today’s youth in western lines ..-don’t even ask…Still in India, children are still being taught the basic principles of Sikhi, moral values, and stuff of that nature. If they are to be our leaders tomorrow., I certainly don’t think there is enough Western Sikh youth due to all the western influence…People are turning back on Sikhi everyday, and the ratio of those going in and going out of Sikhi is pretty far off….I’d say 50 leave for every 1 that comes in . Although, I think when you mentioned Western lines- you were more in the sense of government, emergency dept., in the political stuff wise… The problem with choosing mostly Sikhs from India is that they will bring in their 'indian' ways of doing things. As you know corruption is a big problem in India and bribery and having connections are the only ways that things can get done in India. Indians (Sikhs, Desis) tend to bring all the “negative†values from one place to another - If you ever ( I am sure the same in England) go to Toronto, New York, all those desi crowded places , its no different from Punjab in that aspect. Individuals (whether Sikh or not) continue to cheat national governments-either collecting un-employment where it isn’t due, or ..cheating them in annual taxes. I’ve seen this happen among many gurrsikh people. The thing is money plays such an big part in our everyday lives, no one (99%) don’t ever think about it twice-and realize what they are doing-always about saving few here, saving few there. You know what is ridiculous?? ..Being a gurrsikh is one thing …and then cheating is another thing..What makes me sick..I am sure he is not the only individual, probably many just like him…It sounds a bit funny, but we’ve got an apna here..Gurrsikh true out of his heart, follows the rehat and etc…and happens to own 7-11.…All the donations that go towards the guruddwara, come right off his business’ expenses-which eventually he gets reimbursed for. Can you believe it?…I think this all bribery and corruption these days runs in desi blood lines, and I can guarantee you 99% that its going to continue to Sikhland, if the majority of the population is going to “Apna†[sikh] I think some UN body recently declared India to be the 2nd most corrupt country in the world, after Indonesia which is 1st. I wouldn’t doubt that…Surprised it isn’t the first. They have followed the saying, 'if you can't beat them, join them'. So many of the professional Sikhs I have come across are more patriotic of India than any Hindu. So would you really want these sorts of people on this island. True, but again they are still Sikhs ……..its like you are an American and your proud of it ..and on the same hand your proud to be Jewish. Only conflict that arises between Sikhs and India is that ‘1984’ incidence. Its still India though…No matter what, I think there is always going to be strong connection between Sikhs and India, as it is the place where they all evolved from.- Its sort of hard to forget, right? You asked about the economy of this island. Initially there will be no economy to speak of and it will take a large amount of investment from Sikhs to create an economy to take advantage of either the environment ie tourism, or natural minerals, but as FF said it will most likely be a place where service industries or banking is the main economy rather like the cayman islands. Hmmmmmm…Sounds Interesting..! ….When we get tourism, don’t we get other influences as well. I am confused so is this an island where we want other influence..or is it place which is strictly Sikhism. When you say cayman islands- I am thinking of beaches, ocean, and “all the good†stuff that goes along with it. Tourism is you know nice beach, on the shore, and etc. …and I think this “water†environment and Sikhism are two different types of environment which can not be mixed. As we’ll have everyone from young to old there, and I think the older generation wouldn’t appreciate “all the goreys†…having fun on the beach, yeh?….Especially that “type of clothing†…is seen not in Sikhi limits. What. So, tourism??-Which one? And if its going to be like an national income and then divided among the people there - I think its not going to work with Sikhs, as they can never be happy with the amount of income they receive..They are the ones who like to clock in 40 hrs a week and plus the overtime. I also agree with you about the uselessness of deciding who is a Sikh or not. At the end of the day those who want to migrate there will by doing so have already shown their commitment to Sikhi, whether they are monay or keshdhari. True Please don't refer to yourself as a hypocrite. Everyone is at different stages on the Gurmat highway. By just being on that the journey proves that you are not a hypocrite Always seems though I am driving backwards and never frontwards…LOL ..This is going to be the new way to drive in Sikhland, huh:P! Aight, Sorry for the late reply, Rupinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 whether this idea is real or not... i think the rule that only sikhs can come in is a bit silly... moneh should be allowed.. even people of different religions should be allowed.. but they would be able to experience a sikh way of living.. it could become a relaxation tourist spot.. which in turn could bring more people into sikhi.. and therefore more income one thing that attracts me to this idea is everyone there would go to the gurdwara at amrit vela and do their nitnem, kirtan etc.. and all partake in the same activities :wink: whether this idea is real or not... i think the rule that only sikhs can come in is a bit silly... moneh should be allowed.. even people of different religions should be allowed.. but they would be able to experience a sikh way of living.. it could become a relaxation tourist spot.. which in turn could bring more people into sikhi.. and therefore more income it could become a relaxation tourist spot Hanji that it very possible all those people "tang" of smelly ciggs and Alcolists walking on the streets will not experience this on this Island, b'coz it would probably be forbiden.....or would that create revolts, as majority of the the older generation drinks .... But having it forbiden would bring people closer to Sikhi what do'yall think? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 But having it forbiden would bring people closer to Sikhi what do'yall think? The more we try to suppress a desire... the more we desire for it... :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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