Hmm...proof that Gurus questioned the Koran for women?

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Lallesvari

I am quite surprised that you in one thread can be so adamant that the correct translations for each word be made and then you rely on a faulty translation when it suits you and supports your argument. Also where it doesn't suit your argument the verse has to be seen in an allogerical sense but where it does than it should be taken literally. Not very consistant.

So a slave isn't actually a slave in Islam ?. Isn't verbal gymnastics great. You can make black into white and vice versa.

So Mohammed can kill the menfolk of an entire tribe because 'they tried to poison' him and take their women and children and share them out but still be a prophet ?. I thought the whole idea of a prophet is that God sends him down to stop people doing immoral acts and not actually join in!. Isn't a prophet supposed to improve the actions of the people ?. As Bhai Gurdas said about Guru Nanak

Charhiya Sodhan Dharat Lokai

He set out to reform the people of the world

The 17th century was as bad and lawless as the 7th century but Guru Gobind Singh didn't kill the entire menfolk of a tribe, he didn't keep slaves and he didn't call on his followers to kill his enemies by devious means. This is the difference between Guru Gobind Singh and Mohammed. One day if you contemplate hard enough you may realise the difference between the two.

As for the use of deception in the case of Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Mehtab Singh, only someone with a faulty understanding would compare this with the actions of Mohammed. Mohammed actually got one of his followers to pretend to be the friend of one of Mohammed's enemies, then take that enemy out of security of his friends and family and then assassinate him. Bhai Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh used deception to get into the presence of Massa Ranghar but they didn't pretend friendship and then take him away by the use of deception to kill him. These brave Singhs declared who they were as soon as they gained entrance to Massa Ranghar's presence. They fought him as well as his bodyguards. Now do you still think that you can compare the two tactics ?

As for Bhai Gurdas' Var. I think that you are a great believer in each and every word should be carefully translated. As you have used the translation available on the wesbsite, I humbly request that you give us your translation based on the many years of study you have made of Sanskrit and Braj. And then I will give you my translation and my comment on this Var. Let us not rely on the translations of others.

Btw

It's on the way how Massa Ranghar (may he burn for eternity) was punished and killed by Bhai Mahtab SIngh JI and Bhai Sukha SIngh Ji (may their names bring joy to the hearts)

We, Sikhs don't use such curses or words of praise for our enemies or heroes. The evil that Massa Ranghar did he has been rightly judged by Waheguru. Your curse won't increase his punishment. Waheguru is the the supreme judge. Are they are the result of the influence of Sufism or Sunni Islam on you ?. Or are they attempts to show some solidarity with us ?.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear readers

1. I'll translate the relevant portion and I'll stick to ISO conventions ("A" stands for long "a" and "I" stands for ling "i"):

Text:

ikasi-ikasi brahmandi vici dasi dasi kari avatAra utArA /

kete bedi biAs kari kaI kateba muhammada yArA /

kudarati iku etA pAsArA /

Glossary:

ikasi-ikasi: locative of iku: one

brahmandi: locative of brahmandu: world (sansk: egg of Brahma)

vici: locative postposition : in

dasi dasi:locative of dasa:ten *locative used here with instrumental use

avatAra: nominative plural of avatAru (sansk: avatAra, ava-TR; to descend) :descent (of the Divine) avatAra is not to be confused with the Christian concept of Incarnation. theophany would be a good semantic equivalent

utArA: nominative : passage accross, deliverance (same root as TR for avatAra)

kete kete: plural of ketA : how much?, how many?

bedi biAs: nominative: Veda Vyasa, rishi who composed the Mahabharata and the Bhagavatapurana

kari: absolutive with past tense meaning: he/she created

kateb: plural of kitab: four books of the Abrahamic tradition: Torah, Psalms, Gospels and Qur'an

Muhammada: Prophet Muhammad

yArA: nominative: friend, dear one

kudarati: nominative: power, God's power, omnipotence, creation

iku:nominative: one

etA: nominative : so many

pasArA: spread, extent expanse

Translation

In one* universe he came as the ten avataras

He created so many dear ones such as the Veda's Vyasa and the Kateb's Muhammad**

His One power*** has spread into so many.

* could alternativerly also be translated as "in each one of these universes" referring to the many universes emanating from the pores of Akal Purakh.

** parallelism : Ved Vyas - Kateb Muhammad

*** kudarati having many meanings I chose "power" as I find it more appropriate as it deals here with Akal Purakh's creative power. But one could easily refer to it as "nature" or "creation" as well.

Commentary

This pauri's main point is the notion of multiple universes and the relationship between microcosm and macrocosm as well as the process of manifestation. it should be noted that Muhammad and Ved Vyas are qualified as yArA or dear ones or friends. In one acount of the miraj of the Prophet, Muhammad sees another Muhammad in another universe. THis confirms the belief in the multiplicity of universes which has unfortunately been repudiated by Sunni scholars due to their reading of Aristotle.

In Bachitar Natak the Mahadin figure is allegorical. There is not a single time where the Prophet is known as Mahadin in any islamic or nonislamic work and this means that we are dealing here with a wordplay. Mahadin is not an arabic word, it can't be found as a proper name in any arabic dictionary and is not found as one of the many titles of the Prophet (looked myslef: did not find; confirmed by my colleagues who teach arabic). The Prophet was called by different names such as Ahmad, Mustafa etc.. But Mahadin never appears neither in the lists of names nor in any arabic dictionnary. Of course it plays with its homophony with Muhammad but still it is not exactly Muhammad i.e. a word play is here intended. Mahadin is an allegorical figure inspired by the historical Muhammad but who represents the exoteric Sunni Islam. My take on it is that it is a hybrid word (so typical and characteristic of Guru Gobind SIngh's compositions see Jaap Sahib) composed by a Sanskritic half and an arabo-persian other half. maha (sansk. great) and din (arab. religion or creed)= the great religion referring to its geographical and political expansion (he conquered Arabia...). As such it would refer to the Islam of the Sunnis and its characteristic exoterism. Sunni Islam (and even some branches of Shia Islam such as the official Iranian version of ithnasharia) is characterised by a strict and sometimes very blind adherence to the external aspect of religion. What Maharaj is telling us here is that all these religions were brought about by Akal Purakh but that they started caring more for the exeternal aspect of religion than for the research of the Truth inside of each one of us. Don't forget that Bachitar Natak is, from its title a natak, a play. Indian drama is mainly allegorical specially during the medieval period. Guru Gobind Singh uses the language of allegory in this part of the composition as he is talking about higher mystical realities as most mystics do when talking about those matters. The SIkhi of Guru Gobind Singh (certainly not the SGPC's) is the religion that not only sticks to the inner and true meaning or religion but also invites other religious traditions to do the same.