Beginner at Naam abhyas. Need help please.

[paapiman]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:08 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

This modern Manmat philosophy that all religions are merely different to paths to Vaheguru is blasphemy. Gurmat doesn't acknowledge this.

Brother, there are different paths to Sri Waheguru jee.

ANY human (Sikh or Non-Sikh) may possibly attain Brahamgyan.

Please read the verses below. The meaning of the first verse is also provided.

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥

ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਦਿਲ ਲਾ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵੇਂ) ਕੋਈ (ਮਨੁੱਖ) ਗਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ,

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਸਾ ਨਹੀ ਅੰਤਿ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥੪॥੫੫॥

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

13 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

non Sikhs can't attain brahmgyami avastha. 

Non-Sikhs have attained Brahamgyan in the past too. You DON'T have to be a Sikh to become a Brahamgyani.

There were possibly thousands of non-Sikh Brahamgyanis, who reached Sachkhand, before the arrival of the greatest Master (Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaaj).

This is the beauty of our religion (Sikhism). Sikhism DOES NOT believe that any religion (including ours) has exclusivity to Sachkhand.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

"Brahmgyami sab shrist ka karta"

Does this mean that Baba Deep Singh Ji or Bhai Gurdaas Ji or any other Brahmgyami created this creation? Obviously No. This vaak means that Brahmgyami is the one who created this whole creation- Akaal Purakh.

Brahamgyani can refer to Sri Waheguru jee or a Saint (Sikh or non-Sikh), who has reached the highest possible spiritual level.

There are multiple ways to interpret the verse. which you mentioned above.

Please read one of the arths below.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:08 PM, Trimandeep Singh said:

If you can attain liberation by just having a guru who has really high avastha/or is brahmgyami then why not accept Hindu dieties as your guru because the purpose of human life is to attain liberation. What is the need of Guru Nanak?

People born in SIKH families have to accept Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj. as their Satguru, in order for them to reach Sachkhand. In today's times, that would mean, receiving Naam through Panj Pyare. This instruction (of getting Baptized) DOES NOT apply to non-Sikhs.

JFYI, a similar question to the one who asked above, was asked by Pandits to Sri Satguru jee (Third Master), when he went to a Hindu pilgrimage site. They probably asked what was the need to recite Gurbani, if Vedas were already present.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

22 hours ago, paapiman said:

Non-Sikhs have attained Brahamgyan in the past too. You DON'T have to be a Sikh to become a Brahamgyani.

There were possibly thousands of non-Sikh Brahamgyanis, who reached Sachkhand, before the arrival of the greatest Master (Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaaj).

This is the beauty of our religion (Sikhism). Sikhism DOES NOT believe that any religion (including ours) has exclusivity to Sachkhand.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bhai sahib, 

First of all, the purpose of all human beings is to get a place in Sachkhand. One who gets place in Sachkhand, means he has been liberated.

If a non Sikh can reach Sachkhand then you are saying that one can get liberation and reach Vaheguru WITHOUT Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The purpose of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was to reveal the Satnaam in Kalyug and liberate people. If people were already being liberated and would have gone to Sachkhand without adopting Guru sahib as Guru then Guru Nanak Dev Ji wouldn't even have come in the first place because liberation is the ultimate goal of human life. That is the most precious joon because only humans can do bhagti to attain liberation.

In Bachittar Natak, Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes his conversation with Akaal Purakh. Akaal Purakh Ji says that he sent so many avatars and mahapurush like Shiv Ji, Krishna Ji, Brahma Ji, Vishnu Ji, Gautama Budhha, Muhammad, and so many countless prophets to spread the truth but they got overpowered by ego and instead asked people to worship themselves instead of Vaheguru. Akaal Purakh Ji said to Guru Gobind Singh Ji to take birth in Kalyug and spread the right dharma; which means that before his prakash, the whole world was worshipping someone who was not God. 

All non Sikhs obviously worship the creation of God. Before guru Nanak Dev Ji, there was no absolute truth revealed which means that all those who didn't follow the dharma of Guru Nanak weren't liberated.

Those who get liberated don't require anything else. They have got everything. But Guru Nanak Dev Ji had to come because the people before him must be lacking something. They may not have something. What was that? Naam.

And if you still say that non Sikhs who don't worship the true God get a place in Sachkhand, which means they got liberation then what extra do those people get who actually worshipped the true God, ie, Akaal Purakh? Do they get to sit more near to Vaheguru? Since you have mentioned Guru Nanak Dev Ji as the Greatest Master so the people who adopted him as their guru must have received something more than those who adopted other gurus (inferior to Guru Nanak), right? 

When you say that Sikhism says that Sikhs don't have exclusivity to Sachkhand, then please give any evidence from Gurbani. (I know you will not be able to find since it doesn't even exist.)

You need to know Gurmat Karam Philosophy to understand this concept. Gurmat doesn't say that if you don't worship God, you will have to live in eternal hell, like Christianity and Islam. Gurmat says you will land up near those whom you worship.

Even Gurbani says that those who worship the devi (Hindu goddesses)  they become a woman in their next life. Those who worship Shiv Ji, they will land in Shiv Puri, those who worship Krishna Ji, they will land up in Baikunth, those who worship Allah, they will land up in Jannat, those who worship Budhaa, they will land up in Nirvana and those who worship the True creator, they land up in Sachkhand, the highest heaven of all. Shiv Puri, Baikunth, Jannat, Nirvana, all of these are heavens are in Giaan Khand and people who land up here enjoy various kind of pleasures but only temporarily. Then they again take birth because they are not liberated. People live in Sachkhand permanently.

Guru sahib also gives his orders in Rehatnamey that a Khalsa shouldn't eat from hands of non Sikhs. This is because only Khalsa is purest of the pure. Non Sikhs may keep themselves physical hygienic but without naam, they cannot wash their minds completely. Gurbani says, 

ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੀ ਬਿਖੁ ਲਾਦੀ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰਾ

Without Naam, the mortal has no friend and carries loads of sins on his head 

 

If a mortal has so many loads of sins then how do you expect non Sikhs who haven't even received naam from Satguru, get liberated. They can't even wash away their sins.

For non Sikhs who haven't received naam, Gurbani says 

Gurmukh Laaha Lai Gaye Manmukh Challe mool gavaaiye jeeo 

(The gurmukhs reap profits and reach Vaheguru whereas the Manmukhs depart and regret.)

And Gurbani also defines who gurmukh is. One who follows the teachings of the True Guru, Guru Nanak is called a Gurmukh.

And respected Bhai sahib, if you still don't agree with me, then I would just request you to tell me the purpose of coming of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and how can one be liberated without getting naam which is given by Satguru Ji 

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

If a non Sikh can reach Sachkhand then you are saying that one can get liberation and reach Vaheguru WITHOUT Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The purpose of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was to reveal the Satnaam in Kalyug and liberate people. If people were already being liberated and would have gone to Sachkhand without adopting Guru sahib as Guru then Guru Nanak Dev Ji wouldn't even have come in the first place because liberation is the ultimate goal of human life. That is the most precious joon because only humans can do bhagti to attain liberation.

wjkk wjkf

Let me ask you a question bro.

Suppose you already have 3 solutions for a problem. Can a 4th solution (which would eventually turn out to be the most effective one) be introduced to the world or not? Do you think, it would be imprudent to come out with another solution in this case?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

In Bachittar Natak, Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes his conversation with Akaal Purakh. Akaal Purakh Ji says that he sent so many avatars and mahapurush like Shiv Ji, Krishna Ji, Brahma Ji, Vishnu Ji, Gautama Budhha, Muhammad, and so many countless prophets to spread the truth but they got overpowered by ego and instead asked people to worship themselves instead of Vaheguru. Akaal Purakh Ji said to Guru Gob

The above does NOT prove that the FOLLOWERS of those great personalities cannot reach Sachkhand.

You cannot deny the fact the some of those personalities did talk about, and praise Sri Waheguru jee.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Guru sahib also gives his orders in Rehatnamey that a Khalsa shouldn't eat from hands of non Sikhs. This is because only Khalsa is purest of the pure.

The word "KHALSA" can ALSO refer to non-Sikhs.

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਏ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥

 

Pay attention brother on the language used. The word used is "ਜਨ", not GURMUKH or SIKH.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

When you say that Sikhism says that Sikhs don't have exclusivity to Sachkhand, then please give any evidence from Gurbani. (I know you will not be able to find since it doesn't even exist.)

 

On 5/16/2021 at 5:03 PM, paapiman said:

Brother, there are different paths to Sri Waheguru jee.

ANY human (Sikh or Non-Sikh) may possibly attain Brahamgyan.

Please read the verses below. The meaning of the first verse is also provided.

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥

ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਦਿਲ ਲਾ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵੇਂ) ਕੋਈ (ਮਨੁੱਖ) ਗਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ,

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਸਾ ਨਹੀ ਅੰਤਿ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥੪॥੫੫॥

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Again my brother, please pay very close attention to the WORDS used in Gurbani.

ANY HUMAN, who whole-heartedly sings the praises of Sri Waheguru jee (or hears them), will attain Sachkhand.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

And Gurbani also defines who gurmukh is. One who follows the teachings of the True Guru, Guru Nanak is called a Gurmukh.

The word "Gurmukh" can also apply to Non-Sikhs.

Gurmukh means (one of the meanings) "the one who has his face towards the mighty one (referring to Sri Waheguru jee)".

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

 those who worship Allah, they will land up in Jannat, those who worship Budhaa, they will land up in Nirvana and those who worship the True creator, they land up in Sachkhand

Allah is one of the names of Sri Waheguru jee.

A devout Muslim, who whole-heartedly worships Allah AND has no desire of any Heavenly pleasures, can possibly attain Sachkhand.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Even Gurbani says that those who worship the devi (Hindu goddesses)  they become a woman in their next life. Those who worship Shiv Ji, they will land in Shiv Puri, those who worship Krishna Ji, they will land up in Baikunth, those who worship Allah, they will land up in Jannat, those who worship Budhaa, they will land up in Nirvana and those who worship the True creator, they land up in Sachkhand

A Vedic Hindu recognizes the existence of ONE universal creator.

Again, if he worships Sri Waheguru jee AND has no other desire (other than to merge into the Supreme soul), can possibly attain Sachkhand.

Obviously, Gurbani is against the worship of Demi-Gods, Goddesses, Prophets, Saints, etc.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

If a mortal has so many loads of sins then how do you expect non Sikhs who haven't even received naam from Satguru, get liberated. They can't even wash away their sins.

JFYI bro, even Non-Sikhs can sing Gurbani whole-heartedly and possibly attain liberation. One does NOT have to be a Sikh, to sing/recite Gurbani or engage in Gurbani Mantar Sidhi.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Since you have mentioned Guru Nanak Dev Ji as the Greatest Master so the people who adopted him as their guru must have received something more than those who adopted other gurus (inferior to Guru Nanak), right? 

Gurbani (Sri Aad, Sri Dasam and Sri Sarabloh) has the MOST powerful mantars in it, which can solve any problem that exists in the world. That is the uniqueness of Gurbani. Now, it is up to the Sikh, to whole-heartedly (with love, devotion, concentration, firm belief, etc), to recite Gurbani. 

That DOES NOT mean the other religious texts don't have powerful mantars in them. Vedas also have very strong mantars in them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

For non Sikhs who haven't received naam, Gurbani says 

Gurmukh Laaha Lai Gaye Manmukh Challe mool gavaaiye jeeo 

(The gurmukhs reap profits and reach Vaheguru whereas the Manmukhs depart and regret.)

Please do not restrict the message of Sri Aad Gurbani to Amritdhari Sikhs only.

Our primary Scripture (Sri Aad Gurbani) is meant for the ENTIRE human race.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh can become a Gurmukh.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh might be a Manmukh.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh can become a Harjan.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh might be a Sakat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Samarbir Singh]

WJKK WJKF

Bhai Trimandeep Singh question. If a bramgyanni who has become ONE with Vaheguru Ji so has Guru Nanak Dev Ji. So if it’s ONE jot, then everyone are his children and HE is the sat guru. Main Point ONE. What’s the difference between guru Ji and the Gurmukh pyarra who out of viraag and guru Ji kirpa have become one? Forgive me if I am wrong.

 

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

wjkk wjkf

Let me ask you a question bro.

Suppose you already have 3 solutions for a problem. Can a 4th solution (which would eventually turn out to be the most effective one) be introduced to the world or not? Do you think, it would be imprudent to come out with another solution in this case?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bhai sahib, in a worldly sense you may find countless solutions to a problem but here we are talking about the TRUTH. Truth is ONE and Eternal. There is only one truth. 

We know that different religions have the same message but their interpretation of God is different. However, only ONE Dharam exists.

Sarab Dharam mein Shrest Dharam 

Har ko Naam Jap Nirmal Karam.

Out of all the interpretations/religions of God we have today, only one is ABSOLUTE TRUTH. 

Islam allows Halal but it is prohibited in Hinduism and Sikhism. Christianity says Jesus is the only way but Sikhism says he was a prophet and a creation of Akaal Purakh. Hinduism says the trimurti, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the form of one God only whereas guru sahib says,

Maahadev ko kehat Sada shiv 

Nirankaar ka cheenat neh bhiv 

(These people think Shiv is the True Timeless Being but these fools don't know the secret of Akaal Purakh)

Islam and Hinduism promotes fasting. It is a very important element of both. Bhagat Kabir Ji says 

Chhodeh Ann Kareh Pakhand 

(Fasting is purely an empty ritual)

 

So we come to the conclusion that all of these different religions follow some or other rituals which have Been labelled as PAKHAND by Guru sahib. If Muslim doesn't fast, he no longer remains a Muslim. If a Hindu no longer worships Shiv/Vishnu/Krishna Ji then he no longer remains a Hindu. Thus non Sikhs have to leave their religion to stop doing pakhand (fasting,idol worship) which are an integral part of their religion. 

A person needs do free his mind from pakhand to do bhagti, and hence needs to become a bemukh from their own religion to do bhagti.

Thus, non Sikhs can't reach Sachkhand by following their religion.

Trimandep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

The above does NOT prove that the FOLLOWERS of those great personalities cannot reach Sachkhand.

You cannot deny the fact the some of those personalities did talk about, and praise Sri Waheguru jee.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Veerji, in Bachittar Natak Guru sahib clearly says that these prophets didn't attain liberation and fall into the Lakh Chaurasi because they weren't able to overpower their ego.

I don't remember the pankti but Guru Sahib said that Brahma kept contemplating the Vedas thinking that he knows god but he kept thinking and died. If the writer of Vedas (Brahma) didn't achieve liberation then how can the readers of Vedas (Hindus) achieve liberation. It should be noted that a Hindu is required to strictly follow Vedas and Shastras. 

And Guru sahib says,

Ram Rahim Puran Kuran Anek Kahe mat Ek na manyo

(I don't believe in the message that Vedas give about Ram and the Quran about Rahim) 

Thus means that Vedas and Quran  are not the absolute truth.

If the Hindu Dieties and the writers of Bible, Vedas and Quran didnt liberation then how can their followers attain liberation?

Trimandeep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

The word "KHALSA" can ALSO refer to non-Sikhs.

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਏ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥

 

Pay attention brother on the language used. The word used is "ਜਨ", not GURMUKH or SIKH.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Veerji, you are mistaken, here Kabir Ji is not talking about the Khalsa which was formally prakash-ed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Here Khalse means pure.

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

Allah is one of the names of Sri Waheguru jee.

A devout Muslim, who whole-heartedly worships Allah AND has no desire of any Heavenly pleasures, can possibly attain Sachkhand.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Muslims practice fasting, do Halal, bow in one direction while Namaz and bow in front of kabars (dead people coffin). A person who practices all this can't do bhagti. If you say, a Muslim who doesn't do all this will attain Sachkhand if he praises Allah then also you are wrong. The time a 'Muslim' rejects these rituals, he will automatically be kicked out of Islam because he rejected the ideals Quran and Hadith.

A person can only get a place in Sachkhand when he renounces such pakhand and empty rituals. And as per Gurmat, all these religions have some or the other empty rituals. Hence only Sikhi is the way.

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

A Vedic Hindu recognizes the existence of ONE universal creator.

Again, if he worships Sri Waheguru jee AND has no other desire (other than to merge into the Supreme soul), can possibly attain Sachkhand.

Obviously, Gurbani is against the worship of Demi-Gods, Goddesses, Prophets, Saints, etc.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

A vedic Hindu can't be called a vedic Hindu if he doesn't worship Shiv Ji /Vishnu Ji because these are the God as per Vedas. 

You are right. Gurbani is against Worshipping of these demi gods. Hence a vedic Hindu doesnt worship Vaheguru.

Now if you say what if the Hindus start worshipping Vaheguru? Answer is they will no longer remain a Hindu if they don't worship Shiv/Vishnu because then they would have to reject the Vedas.

Trimandeep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

JFYI bro, even Non-Sikhs can sing Gurbani whole-heartedly and possibly attain liberation. One does NOT have to be a Sikh, to sing/recite Gurbani or engage in Gurbani Mantar Sidhi.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes you are right one doesn't Need to be a Sikh to sing Gurbani. Everyone has a right to praise Vaheguru and everyone should have access to truth. However, only those who adopted Gurbani as their SATGURU (Sikhs) will be liberated.

Trimandeep Singh

[Trimandeep Singh]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

Gurbani (Sri Aad, Sri Dasam and Sri Sarabloh) has the MOST powerful mantars in it, which can solve any problem that exists in the world. That is the uniqueness of Gurbani. Now, it is up to the Sikh, to whole-heartedly (with love, devotion, concentration, firm belief, etc), to recite Gurbani. 

That DOES NOT mean the other religious texts don't have powerful mantars in them. Vedas also have very strong mantars in them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

By reading Vedas and reciting its mantras one can no doubt reach an avastha. One may even go in samadhi. But you know what guru sahib says,

Sidhs go in samadhi and are tired of it but still are not able to realize God.

Trimandeep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

11 hours ago, paapiman said:

Please do not restrict the message of Sri Aad Gurbani to Amritdhari Sikhs only.

Our primary Scripture (Sri Aad Gurbani) is meant for the ENTIRE human race.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh can become a Gurmukh.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh might be a Manmukh.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh can become a Harjan.

A Sikh or a Non-Sikh might be a Sakat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes, Gurbani is for the whole human race. And you know what Gurbani says to the whole human race? 

Bin Satgur kinne na paayeo Bin Satgur kinne na payea

[Noone can achieve anything (includes liberation) without Satguru and Satguru is Guru Nanak Dev Ji only] 

Amrit Peevoh Sadaa Chir Jeevoh 

[O siblings of destiny take the Holy Amrit and live forever!]

Peevoh Pahaul Khandetaar Hoye Janam Suhelaa 

[Drink the KHANDE DI PAHAUL and reap the profit of this human life, that is, liberation]

Satgur kai Bhaane Jo Chalai Har Saeti Ralliya 

[ One who follows the hukam of the True Guru merges back into Vaheguru]

Still any doubt left?

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

[Trimandeep Singh]

1 hour ago, Samarbir Singh said:

WJKK WJKF

Bhai Trimandeep Singh question. If a bramgyanni who has become ONE with Vaheguru Ji so has Guru Nanak Dev Ji. So if it’s ONE jot, then everyone are his children and HE is the sat guru. Main Point ONE. What’s the difference between guru Ji and the Gurmukh pyarra who out of viraag and guru Ji kirpa have become one? Forgive me if I am wrong.

 

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Veer Ji, 

Satguru Guru Nanak Dev Ji are one with Vaheguru. Satguru Ji are Vaheguru himself. Vaheguru himself came in Kalyug in form of Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread the divine message and liberate people by giving then naam. There is only difference in form. Vaheguru is nirgun in whom gursikh merges back like a drop goes into the ocean. And Satguru is sargun saroop of Vaheguru which we can see.

When we say that Brahmgyani becomes one with Vaheguru then we mean that now they have become a roop of Vaheguru only. It's just like a river has joined the ocean back. But this doesn't mean that Brahmgyami becomes Vaheguru. Brahmgyanis are forever alive and live in Sachkhand praising Vaheguru who lives with them.

"Sachkhand waise Nirankaar"

Bhul chuk maaf 

Trimandeep Singh