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Beginner at Naam abhyas. Need help please.


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On 6/5/2021 at 8:01 PM, paapiman said:

Daas is not completely sure about it, but, IMHO, Naam Daan could possibly refer to implanting a Mantar by a GURU (OR PANJ PYARE) into the subconscious mind of a spiritual seeker.

Now, it depends on the Mantar, on how far will that particular seeker go in spirituality.

For example, RAAM* Mantar is very powerful (as it is CLEARLY evident from Gurbani). So, therefore, a seeker who does Simran of it (WITHOUT any desires in mind), with utmost love, devotion, concentration, etc, can possibly reach Sachkhand.

* - The seeker has to think of RAAM as the ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR, which resides in ALL humans.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bhai sahib, from the knowledge I have received by reading books of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji, I would say that 'RAM' is a very powerful mantar but cannot take you to Sachkhand.

Only Vaheguru Mantar can take you to Sachkhand. This is because these names are relevant until the creation is not destroyed.

Eg: Ram means one pervading everywhere or omnipresent. When this whole creation (all worlds and universes) will be destroyed someday by Vaheguru Ji, then this 'everywhere' will NOT exist. So 'pervading everywhere' becomes irrelevant. When there no 'everywhere' then who can pervade 'everywhere'.

Another Eg: Gopal means one who sustains this earth/land. When this land will not exist (and all other lands) then 'sustainer of lands' will become irrelevant. There can be no sustainer of land when there is no land.

These mantars are irrelevant when,

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥
Ashtapadee:

ਜਬ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥
When this world had not yet appeared in any form,

ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਬ ਕਹ ਤੇ ਹੋਤਾ ॥
who then committed sins and performed good deeds?

ਜਬ ਧਾਰੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ॥
When the Lord Himself was in Profound Samaadhi,

ਤਬ ਬੈਰ ਬਿਰੋਧ ਕਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਮਾਤਿ ॥
then against whom were hate and jealousy directed?

ਜਬ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਪਤ ॥
When there was no color or shape to be seen,

ਤਬ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸਹਿ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥
then who experienced joy and sorrow?

ਜਬ ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਆਪਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥
When the Supreme Lord Himself was Himself All-in-all,

ਤਬ ਮੋਹ ਕਹਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਹੋਵਤ ਭਰਮ ॥
then where was emotional attachment, and who had doubts?

ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤੀਜਾ ॥
He Himself has staged His own drama;

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥
O Nanak, there is no other Creator. ||1||

**************

Daas will try to post a picture and translation of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji's vichar on 'Satnaam and Kirtam Naam'.

Trimandeep Singh 

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1 hour ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Bhai sahib, from the knowledge I have received by reading books of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji, I would say that 'RAM' is a very powerful mantar but cannot take you to Sachkhand.

Only Vaheguru Mantar can take you to Sachkhand. This is because these names are relevant until the creation is not destroyed.

So then according to you. no one went to Sachkhand in the previous yugs? Is that right?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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7 minutes ago, paapiman said:

So then according to you. no one went to Sachkhand in the previous yugs? Is that right?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

When you asked me this question previously, this was my reply.

*******

I never said that people from previous three yugs weren't liberated. Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave them their darshan.

Eg: Bhagat Dhroo Ji. After immense meditation on KIRTAM NAAM, he still couldn't get darshan of Vaheguru. Finally he decided that he wouldn't eat anything until he received darshan. Seeing his thirst and devotion, Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave him his darshan and gave him Amrit.

**********

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

 

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1 minute ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

When you asked me this question previously, this was my reply.

*******

I never said that people from previous three yugs weren't liberated. Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave them their darshan.

Eg: Bhagat Dhroo Ji. After immense meditation on KIRTAM NAAM, he still couldn't get darshan of Vaheguru. Finally he decided that he wouldn't eat anything until he received darshan. Seeing his thirst and devotion, Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave him his darshan and gave him Amrit.

**********

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

 

To that, Daas had already replied.

Quote

So similarly, Sri Satguru jee (First Master) can give darshan to non-Sikh Bhagats in this age too and grant them a place in Sachkhand.

How hard is that to understand?

Unquote

 

So, therefore we must try to end this debate asap rather than going around in circles.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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2 minutes ago, paapiman said:

To that, Daas had already replied.

Quote

So similarly, Sri Satguru jee (First Master) can give darshan to non-Sikh Bhagats in this age too and grant them a place in Sachkhand.

How hard is that to understand?

Unquote

 

So, therefore we must try to end this debate asap rather than going around in circles.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Satguru Ji giving darshan doesn't mean granting a place in Sachkhand. Satguru Ji gives amrit and naam and it is upto the person if he devotes his life to bhagti or not. If one does do prema bhagti, one may get Mukti (place in Sachkhand).

Trimandeep Singh 

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Here are pictures of chapter "Spiritual Earnings of Abhiyaasis of SatNaam and Kirtam Naam" from the Book, 'Naam Te Naam Da Daata Satguru' by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji.

Screenshot_2021_0607_210314.thumb.png.3736606ba53bc4b5112c99f305597764.png

 

Screenshot_2021_0607_210334.thumb.png.0283ff2e0a5d95219e17cf5215930d64.png

@paapimanji you can read his vichar because he has supported his vichar with the help of Gurbani panktis. You can have look at them.

Trimandeep Singh 

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47 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Here are pictures of chapter "Spiritual Earnings of Abhiyaasis of SatNaam and Kirtam Naam" from the Book, 'Naam Te Naam Da Daata Satguru' by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji.

Screenshot_2021_0607_210314.thumb.png.3736606ba53bc4b5112c99f305597764.png

 

Screenshot_2021_0607_210334.thumb.png.0283ff2e0a5d95219e17cf5215930d64.png

@paapimanji you can read his vichar because he has supported his vichar with the help of Gurbani panktis. You can have look at them.

Trimandeep Singh 

Thanks for the image.

Do you have proof from any other Gurmukh Brahamgyani (preferably the ones associated with Puratan Sampradas), which support the above point?

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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22 hours ago, paapiman said:

Thanks for the image.

Do you have proof from any other Gurmukh Brahamgyani (preferably the ones associated with Puratan Sampradas), which support the above point?

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Can only find Katha of Mahapurakhs related to Kirtam Naam and Satnaam. Though this topic is not much discussed in Kathas and Lectures.

Trimandeep Singh

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On 6/8/2021 at 10:41 AM, Trimandeep Singh said:

Can only find Katha of Mahapurakhs related to Kirtam Naam and Satnaam. Though this topic is not much discussed in Kathas and Lectures.

Trimandeep Singh

Another set of  beautiful verses from Gurbani (From Sri Thiti Gauree Saab), which illustrates that any human being (Sikh or non-Sikh) has a chance to reach Sackhand.

 

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੈ ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

ਕੋ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਕੋ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 6/8/2021 at 10:41 AM, Trimandeep Singh said:

Can only find Katha of Mahapurakhs related to Kirtam Naam and Satnaam. Though this topic is not much discussed in Kathas and Lectures.

Trimandeep Singh

Another set of verses. Please read the meanings bro and contemplate on them.

 

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੈ ਕੋ ਉਚਰਿ ਸੁਨਾਵੈ ॥

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਜਿਹੜਾ ਕੋਈ (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ) ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕੋਈ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲ ਕੇ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਪਾਵੈ ॥

(ਉਸ ਦੇ) ਜਨਮਾਂ ਜਨਮਾਂਤਰਾਂ ਦੀ (ਪਾਪਾਂ ਰੂਪੀ) ਮੈਲ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਉਹ) ਮਨ ਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਿਆ ਫਲ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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17 hours ago, paapiman said:

Another set of  beautiful verses from Gurbani (From Sri Thiti Gauree Saab), which illustrates that any human being (Sikh or non-Sikh) has a chance to reach Sackhand.

 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿਹੋਇਨਿਰਮਲਾਕਟੀਐਜਮਕੀਫਾਸ॥
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away.

@paapiman Do you think this means that JUST by going in saadh sangat one can get mukt?

Or does it mean if one goes to saadh sangat, one gets inspired to do bhagti, receive naam from Satguru (amrit) and finally gets darshan of Vaheguru?

Think about it.

Trimandeep Singh 

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3 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿਹੋਇਨਿਰਮਲਾਕਟੀਐਜਮਕੀਫਾਸ॥
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away.

@paapiman Do you think this means that JUST by going in saadh sangat one can get mukt?

Or does it mean if one goes to saadh sangat, one gets inspired to do bhagti, receive naam from Satguru (amrit) and finally gets darshan of Vaheguru?

Think about it.

Trimandeep Singh 

Bro, let's focus on the verses below (based on Context, Uthanka, Grammar, Esoteric meanings, etc), which clearly indicate that anyone (Sikh or Non-Sikh) has a chance to reach Sachkhand. 

Can you prove that the verses below only apply to Baptized Sikhs? Remember, it is not just one set of verses or just one verse, there are three sets of verses which can prove a universal message of Gurbani.

For the time being, please don't bring in new verses of Gurbani or any bachans of Mahapurakhs into the discussion.

 

First set of verses:

image.png.bb75e323826897e58e71ffbf4fdb6ef8.png

 

Second set of verses:

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੈ ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

ਕੋ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਕੋ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥

 

Third set of verses:

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸੁਣੈ ਕੋ ਉਚਰਿ ਸੁਨਾਵੈ ॥

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਜਿਹੜਾ ਕੋਈ (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ) ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕੋਈ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲ ਕੇ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਪਾਵੈ ॥

(ਉਸ ਦੇ) ਜਨਮਾਂ ਜਨਮਾਂਤਰਾਂ ਦੀ (ਪਾਪਾਂ ਰੂਪੀ) ਮੈਲ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਉਹ) ਮਨ ਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਿਆ ਫਲ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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I competely agree with you that Gurbani is Universal. Try to understand my point. You are quoting panktis talking about one same thing. But if we consider Guru sahib teachings like a story....

First guru sahib tells us that this world is our temporary residence and we are separated from Vaheguru. The aim of our life is to have darshan of Vaheguru. Then he tells us that getting his darshan is not an easy task as a very powerful entity, Maaya stops you from doing his bhagti. When we ask guru sahib how to fight it, then he gives us the jugti. He instructs us to go in saadh sangat and listen to the praises of Vaheguru. There, there would be only talks of Vaheguru and not anything worldly. In that sangat, we will be inspired by gursikhs to have a ucha sucha jeevan and jap naam. With that sangat, our love and yearning to meet Vaheguru increases and we will take Amrit. Then he instructs us to keep Rehat so that our Kamaayi is protected and secured. Then he commands us to not only focus on our jeevan but also inspire others to move towards this path.

And finally, this pankti comes into play- One who sings the praises of lord with love and devotion will surely get mukt.


I had quoted a pankti in my previous posts which clearly said that ONLY SATGURU can give naam. We already agree that without naam, there's no mukti. So, if we are able to conclude that who is this Satguru then we can end this debate.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥

The True Guru is the Giver of the Lord's Name. There is no other giver at all.

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਰਾਮ ॥

The self-willed manmukhs practice devotional rituals without the True Guru, but without the True Guru, there is no devotion.

 

If we conclude that Satguru can also refer to a Pooran Brahmgyani then surely, non Sikhs who haven't received naam from Guru Nanak Dev Ji can get Mukti.

But if we conclude that only Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Satguru then it leaves no doubt that only a Sikh, who has received naam from Guru sahib can get mukt.

Do you agree with me on the last 3 paragraphs? 

Trimandeep Singh 

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I walked into a forest. I saw a man who had everything he needed. Provided in the environment, used to perfection. I asked him, what is this you do to have it all? He says I'm a lumberjack. 

I'm prideful so I say Well. I will not be a lumberjack. I will be something better. 

Chuckling he says I can show you the way from the beginning, give you a headstart. I say No! If I am to be greater than you I will have none of it!

Years later a boy comes. And he says Hail Sir. I see you are a fine lumberjack. Please let me stay with you and learn your ways. My father was a lumberjack but I've lost him. Let me see your craft. 

The man says Boy! I am no mere lumberjack let me show you the ways only I know, having worked hard this forest!

So the man takes his axe and plunges it into a tree and fells it. He makes boards and pieces from it. He shows the boy all he can do and make. 

The boy smiles and nods sagely. This is very good all you do, but when you cut the edges look like this, you have to plane them later. My fathers cuts were perfect from the beginning. See these joints? They are good but you've tied everything together with rope. The rope will rot before the wood and so my father used pegs. 

The man is dejected. Upset. He's spent now almost his whole life perfecting his craft and here an orphan boy has poked holes in everything he's done. The man rushes through the forest looking for the lumberjack. 

After what seems like lifetimes he finds the Lumberjack in the most (heavenly, natural, or hellish) part of the forest. He falls before him. Master! I have spent my all and I cannot compare to even one of your students! Please you must teach me!

The Lumberjack smiles and says You've done really well Friend. You have your axe always, you did not take too much from the forest, your hair is now long like the moss from the highest branches but you thought it was trees you were learning to cut and it was your ego that needed to be felled. For your hard work you have reached me, now let me show you how to turn the axe on your body forest and make your boat home. 

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Rushed story. I hope it's possible small relevance rings there dully. 

At the top, discerning a Gursikh from the rarest of Atmas that manage to work their way into something almost identical is hard to do.  No matter how close you are, or get, your final work is held to the Sikh standard. 

Can this be done? Yeah..by becoming a Sikh or identical to a Sikh and having help at the end, which is shorter if you're already Sikh like, and shortest if you follow the guidebook for the lab 100. 

 

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  • 1 year later...
On 5/12/2021 at 7:16 AM, PCSJZ said:

Not true. Anyone can chant gods name, amritdhari or non amritdhari. There are no restrictions. Were bhagat Kabir and bhagat Farid amritdhari?

And Waheguru is the only one that can give you naam.

not sure of the ang off hand but SGGS ji says. Bin naame mukt na pavai koi, bin satgur ko naam na pavai. There is no liberation without naam and no naam without waheguru.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa 

Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Kabir ji Guru Ramanand ji 

And Farid  ji also Served his Guru for 12 years before he tried for 36 years without Guru but did not suceed.thanks 

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