Following All Rehatname

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Here (from the same bani) both kirpaan and kard are mentioned:

 

ਤੁਹੀ ਸੂਲ ਸੈਥੀ ਤਬਰ ਤੂ ਨਿਖੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੇਲ ਸਭ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕਰਦ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ॥੬॥

In the katha of Sri Shastar naam Mala Saab, Gyani Thakur Singh jee mentioned that the following four Shastars (in the verse below) all refer to the KATAAR. They are probably referring to different versions (see one below in the link) of the KATAAR. Similarly, it is possible that Karad, Chhuri, Khanjar and Kirpan, all refer to different versions of a Knife/Dagger.

ਜਮਧਰ ਜਮਦਾੜਾ ਜਬਰ ਜੋਧਾਂਤਕ ਜਿਹ ਨਾਇ ॥

 

Jamdhar Katari - Wikipedia

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 7/2/2021 at 6:06 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Guns were available, but at that time they might have been harder to procure as mogs probably discouraged the ahhm populace from being shastar/ashtardhari or they were expensive? Look at Shastarnaammala, the biggest sections is on guns for instance.  As conflicts continued, I'm sure Singhs appropriated more and more of the weaponry left behind by the defeated foes; and as resources flowed to the Khalsa (from looting and rakhi payments) they could afford to buy their own. 

In this hukamnama dasmesh pita specifically seems to ask for horsemen armed with bandooks?

Plus I think Singhs were already getting a reputation for rifle horseback warfare prior to Ranjit Singh. I think they used them in dhai phat attacks/counterattacks. 

 

Great share Dal. Any further info on which region of Sikhs this was addressed to ?

 

The moghals had been using forms of canon and such, since Babur. I'm still not convinced yet that guns had become a norm by that time though. I haven't heard many instances in Sri Gur Panth Parkash of Sikhs using guns, but it would be interesting to see where and what time Bhai Ratta Singh Bhangu does mention them.

 

On 7/2/2021 at 6:14 PM, dalsingh101 said:

I've heard differently, that karad is a smaller handheld knife.

 

What we call kirpan was a 3 ft sword pre-British times. The British tried to disarm the Sikhs after 1849, and stopped them carrying swords, and instead limited this to a smaller dagger, which then became known as a kirpan.

[dalsingh101]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:25 PM, chatanga1 said:

 

Great share Dal. Any further info on which region of Sikhs this was addressed to ?

 

No, but there might be some pages of my scan of Ganda Singh's Hukamname book missing. It might be in them? Also it mentions the current owner of hukamnama as someone from Patiala at the bottom of the page? That might be a clue to it's history. Want to try and find Shamsher Singh Ashok's book on hukamname and see if any extra info is therein. What I noticed is that Banda Singh used 5 hathiars phrase in his hukamnamay more than dasmesh pita, but dasmesh pita was continuously telling sangat to come for darshan armed with hathiars. 

 

Quote

The moghals had been using forms of canon and such, since Babur. I'm still not convinced yet that guns had become a norm by that time though. I haven't heard many instances in Sri Gur Panth Parkash of Sikhs using guns, but it would be interesting to see where and what time Bhai Ratta Singh Bhangu does mention them.

Remember Amarnama by Dhadhi Nath Maal (if authentic) describes some Hazoori Singhs shooting some bakray in the head in Madho Das's (later Banda Singh) ashram. 

  

 

Quote

What we call kirpan was a 3 ft sword pre-British times. The British tried to disarm the Sikhs after 1849, and stopped them carrying swords, and instead limited this to a smaller dagger, which then became known as a kirpan.

 Is kirpaan a Panjabi/Indic synonym for talwaar? 

Plus I think the brits did allow some Sikhs to carry bigger kirpaans but they were probably more useless 'ceremonial' ones by then. Angrez had good reason to fear Sikh swords. 

  

[dalsingh101]

@chatanga1

Here's a similar hukam from Ashok's book with footnotes:

 

[paapiman]

@Trimandeep Singh - Do AKJ Singhs follow the below Rehat strictly?

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

@paapiman

Veer ji, I've been casually going through some older rahits lately (because of this thread) and I don't think it is possible to follow them all like suggested in the OP. 

[paapiman]

8 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

@paapiman

Veer ji, I've been casually going through some older rahits lately (because of this thread) and I don't think it is possible to follow them all like suggested in the OP. 

Please do share some injunctions bro, especially the ones who think are not very commonly known among the Sikhs.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/8/2021 at 5:45 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Veer ji, I've been casually going through some older rahits lately (because of this thread) and I don't think it is possible to follow them all like suggested in the OP

You are saying that in a way that they are difficult (like Dietary Bibek) or are contradictory? 

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:32 PM, paapiman said:

Do AKJ Singhs follow the below Rehat strictly?

It's useless for both of us to talk about someone else's Rehat.

And I am repeating this again a person should sincerely strive to follow all Rehat if not able to follow a hukam due to forced circumstances. This includes ardaas, doing sangat and doing more Paath to gain strength.

Trimandeep Singh 

[dalsingh101]

48 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

You are saying that in a way that they are difficult (like Dietary Bibek) or are contradictory? 

When I look at the extant rahits its obvious that they have overlap, but also that some of the writers own interpretations and biases can come in (not surprisingly).

Diet is one place where they vary somewhat. Nitnems can differ.  

[paapiman]

6 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

It's useless for both of us to talk about someone else's Rehat.

Daas asked you a question. If you don't know the answer, just say that you don't know.

Further, we are not talking about one particular individual. We are talking about a Jathebandi, which probably claims to follow the Full Rehat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

15 hours ago, paapiman said:

Daas asked you a question. If you don't know the answer, just say that you don't know.

Further, we are not talking about one particular individual. We are talking about a Jathebandi, which probably claims to follow the Full Rehat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I don't need to hide my inability to answer that question. Puratan AKJ singhs probably follow this but not Singhs abroad.  

Also, I had cleared this point before.

Taksaal too claims of having the most authentic Rehat sources and same is with the Nihangs, yet they have minor disputes. 

You are going so much into differences which either creates a negative impression of yours or the jathebandi. 

You should have a problem with AKJ if they don't respect the opinions of other jathebandis and label them as qurehtia. They practice their Rehat (which is accepted in the Panth) within their own smagams and for your information, other jathebandis have been involved in this stuff of defaming other jathebandis.

Few years back, the Jagowale were spreading a serious anti-AKJ propaganda on Social media when they did bhog of a Samagam at Mundawni despite knowing that it is optional to do bhog at Ragmaala. So who's doing all this stuff? 

I am not at all anti-Jagowaala but your opinions on other jathebandis are surely not cooperative. 

Some practices of the Nihangs are not followed by Taksaal because they think it is Manmat but they keep it within their own jatha and refrain from touching these topics to maintain their pyaar and satkaar for other sampradas. All these differences in Rehat and interpretations is a khed of Vaheguru and only he knows how this will benefit the Panth.

We all should have this attitude of Taksaal than trying our best to find faults in someone else's Rehat.

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

[paapiman]

22 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Taksaal too claims of having the most authentic Rehat sources and same is with the Nihangs, yet they have minor disputes. 

You are going so much into differences which either creates a negative impression of yours or the jathebandi. 

You should have a problem with AKJ if they don't respect the opinions of other jathebandis and label them as qurehtia. They practice their Rehat (which is accepted in the Panth) within their own smagams and for your information, other jathebandis have been involved in this stuff of defaming other jathebandis.

Few years back, the Jagowale were spreading a serious anti-AKJ propaganda on Social media when they did bhog of a Samagam at Mundawni despite knowing that it is optional to do bhog at Ragmaala. So who's doing all this stuff? 

I am not at all anti-Jagowaala but your opinions on other jathebandis are surely not cooperative. 

Any Jathebandi, which falsely claims to follow the Full Rehat, should be confronted.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

22 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

Few years back, the Jagowale were spreading a serious anti-AKJ propaganda on Social media when they did bhog of a Samagam at Mundawni despite knowing that it is optional to do bhog at Ragmaala. So who's doing all this stuff? 

The above is not a very big issue as AKJ were following the so-called Panthic Rehat Maryada.

Defaming anyone is completely against Gurmat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

23 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

We all should have this attitude of Taksaal than trying our best to find faults in someone else's Rehat.

But, you do agree (after this discussion) that the Gurmat Bibeki Singhs do not follow the Full Rehat right?

There is no doubt that they follow a lot of Rehats, which includes the difficult Rehats of Sarabloh and Bibek.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 7/8/2021 at 8:15 AM, dalsingh101 said:

@paapiman

Veer ji, I've been casually going through some older rahits lately (because of this thread) and I don't think it is possible to follow them all like suggested in the OP. 

@Trimandeep Singh - Hope you read the above post brother.

Dal Singh jee has been a member of this Forum for a very long time and has plenty of knowledge of Sikh historical texts. His opinion on this topic carries a lot of weight.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

55 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Dal Singh jee has been a member of this Forum for a very long time and has plenty of knowledge of Sikh historical texts. His opinion on this topic carries a lot of weight.

I wouldn't go that far veer ji. I'm just learning like everyone else. 

All I'm saying is that the extant rahits cover a wide time period, and although they have overlap, they are quite diverse. They are essentially interpretations of Sikh life, and like all writings, the author's biases and personal interpretations come in. 

To have a clear contrast of this, look at the earliest rahit I posted, and then compare it to say Prem Sumarag. The length and style and contents are very different. 

[paapiman]

Quote

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮੇਲ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਸੋ, ਕਛ ਕੇਸਨ ਸਦ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ।

[Always] stay with your Weapons [shastar] and the Guru's Word [Shabad], always have love for your Kachera [undergarment] and Kes [uncut hair].

ਕਰਦ ਰਾਖਨੀ ਪੰਚ ਏ, ਤਜੈ ਨ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਨੇਮ ।

Keeping a Karad [small dagger] is the fifth [commandment/rehat], do not abandon these in your daily discipline.

Unquote[1]

[1] - The Five Rehats - Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (manglacharan.com)

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

55 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Quote

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮੇਲ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਸੋ, ਕਛ ਕੇਸਨ ਸਦ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ।

[Always] stay with your Weapons [shastar] and the Guru's Word [Shabad], always have love for your Kachera [undergarment] and Kes [uncut hair].

ਕਰਦ ਰਾਖਨੀ ਪੰਚ ਏ, ਤਜੈ ਨ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਨੇਮ ।

Keeping a Karad [small dagger] is the fifth [commandment/rehat], do not abandon these in your daily discipline.

Unquote[1]

[1] - The Five Rehats - Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (manglacharan.com)

 

Bhul chuk maaf

@dalsingh101 - Please have a look at the above verses bro.

Notice that Shastars (weapons) are mentioned as a separate Rehat, as to keeping a Karad (small dagger).

Maybe Shastars are a reference to the Panj Hatheyaar?

Your thoughts?

Thanks

@Trimandeep Singh

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

According to Bhai Daya Singh Rehatnama:

• Singhs are suppose to keep a dagger on their heads.
• Singhs are suppose to take a bath with milk, yoghurt and butter milk

 

@Trimandeep Singh

Does AKJ/Gurmat Bibek team follow the above Rehats?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

@dalsingh101 - Please have a look at the above verses bro.

Notice that Shastars (weapons) are mentioned as a separate Rehat, as to keeping a Karad (small dagger).

Maybe Shastars are a reference to the Panj Hatheyaar?

Your thoughts?

Thanks

@Trimandeep Singh

 

Bhul chuk maaf

@dalsingh101 @Trimandeep Singh

There is a reference to the Panj Shastar in Bhai Daya Singh Rehatnama. It is a separate Rehat, to keeping a Kirpan.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

@dalsingh101 - Please have a look at the above verses bro.

Notice that Shastars (weapons) are mentioned as a separate Rehat, as to keeping a Karad (small dagger).

Maybe Shastars are a reference to the Panj Hatheyaar?

Your thoughts?

 

The impression you get (from extant hukamnamas from Guru ji) is that overall the idea was for Sikhs to be well armed. In some hukams they use the 'panj hathiars' phrase and in some a more plain wording that just says to come with 'hathiars' is used. I don't think it was as super rigid a prescription as you seem to be thinking, with an exact specification of weapons. That's probably why you see little variations in between rehats.   

The 'kirpaan gatray rakh' might not be a separate rehat, but just specifying how to carry the kirpaan. I vaguely recall some rahit saying not to carry your sword slung over your back (like a Ninja). 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I vaguely recall some rahit saying not to carry your sword slung over your back (like a Ninja). 

Daas probably read that too. Most likely, it is mentioned in Bhai Chaupa Singh Rehatnama.

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

On 7/4/2021 at 1:25 PM, chatanga1 said:

The moghals had been using forms of canon and such, since Babur. I'm still not convinced yet that guns had become a norm by that time though. I haven't heard many instances in Sri Gur Panth Parkash of Sikhs using guns, but it would be interesting to see where and what time Bhai Ratta Singh Bhangu does mention them.

Here's an interesting hukam nama from Ashok's collection. If genuine, it seems that Guru ji was acquiring a small canon or bandook (ਤੁਪਕ)? 

SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary

Ŧupak. ਛੋਟੀ ਤੋਪ, ਬੰਦੂਕ। small cannon, carbine. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਾਣਿ ਚਲਾਈ ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਸਤਿ ਚਿੜਾਈ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 1, Asatpadee 12, 5:2 (P: 418).

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary

[Per. n.] Gun SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

 

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਫ਼ਾ.੧ ਤਪਕ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਛੋਟੀ ਤੋਪ। (2) ਬੰਦੂਕ. ਤੁਫ਼ੰਗ. "ਓਨੀ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਾਣਿ ਚਲਾਈ". (ਆਸਾ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧) "ਤੁਪਕ ਤਬਰ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ". (ਸਨਾਮਾ) ਦੇਖੋ, ਤੁਫ਼ੰਗ. ॥ Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

 

[Trimandeep Singh]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:59 PM, paapiman said:

According to Bhai Daya Singh Rehatnama:

• Singhs are suppose to keep a dagger on their heads.
• Singhs are suppose to take a bath with milk, yoghurt and butter milk

I have never heard or read about these rehats though. Anyways, thank you for posting...i will start my research on puratan Rehat Maryada again.

I wanted to get a book of Bhai Manvir Singh UK on Authentic Rehat Maryada which can be purchased from Khalsa Foundation Store but they don't export it. But they can deliver in Canada.

Bhaisaab, if you want to research more about Rehat Maryada...then do get that book and don't forget to share some valuable information from it : )

Trimandeep Singh