Amritsar: Youth disrupts religious service in Golden Temple, beaten to death

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

It depends on your definition of 'mindless violence'. Someone else might disagree what constitutes this, and what doesn't.  

If there is a conflict between Gurbani and Rehatname, on basic human rights, Gurbani will always be given precedence. 

You cannot kill or hurt someone, just because he has criticized our Satgurus or Sikhi. There are historical examples (from Gur-Ithihaas) which can be used to denounce such behaviour.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

10 minutes ago, Premi said:

Who knows what we could be incriminated with going by example of Jagtar Singh, and other Singhs who've been in court or otherwise recently

I mean isn't that the point though. Afraid to point out the fact, that pointing out the fact, will get you arbitraily detained, tortured, an attempted bs fir filed. It's terrorism. It's not even done well. 

[GurjantGnostic]

Not going to india unless it's Dharam Yudh. You fine people that have family there be very careful. 

Lost my tourist dollars most def. 

[dalsingh101]

15 minutes ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Not going to india unless it's Dharam Yudh. You fine people that have family there be very careful. 

Lost my tourist dollars most def. 

It's hot for a lot of us out there. My family are the ones I'd have to watch out for most probably!  lol!!

[dalsingh101]

19 minutes ago, paapiman said:

If there is a conflict between Gurbani and Rehatname, on basic human rights, Gurbani will always be given precedence. 

You cannot kill or hurt someone, just because he has criticized our Satgurus or Sikhi. There are historical examples (from Gur-Ithihaas) which can be used to denounce such behaviour.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bhai ji, you have to contextualise it as well. Potential war with china, umpteen previous cases of beadbi that have gone unaddressed, grooming, disappearances - I just think the straw that broke the camel's back might have finally landed?  

A lot of Sikhs feel the majority of the panth are sleep walking in the face of a lot of potential threats. A lot feel a more hawkish mentality is not only justified, but essential for our survival over the next few decades where things on a socio-political and even ecological front are very unpredictable. 

[GurjantGnostic]

55 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Bhai ji, you have to contextualise it as well. Potential war with china, umpteen previous cases of beadbi that have gone unaddressed, grooming, disappearances - I just think the straw that broke the camel's back might have finally landed?  

A lot of Sikhs feel the majority of the panth are sleep walking in the face of a lot of potential threats. A lot feel a more hawkish mentality is not only justified, but essential for our survival over the next few decades where things on a socio-political and even ecological front are very unpredictable. 

Absolutely bro. You don't thrive, or survive just being nice. You have to so thoroughly defeat the attacker that you have the luxury of being merciful and maintaining your discipline. That's not a jee wiz okie doke mindset. 

[paapiman]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:48 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Bhai ji, you have to contextualise it as well. Potential war with china, umpteen previous cases of beadbi that have gone unaddressed, grooming, disappearances - I just think the straw that broke the camel's back might have finally landed?  

A lot of Sikhs feel the majority of the panth are sleep walking in the face of a lot of potential threats. A lot feel a more hawkish mentality is not only justified, but essential for our survival over the next few decades where things on a socio-political and even ecological front are very unpredictable. 

For some of the things bro, like Sexual grooming, Rape, Pedophilia, Murder, Police injustice, etc, if we end up taking the law in our hands, most people (including Westerners) will probably sympathize with us or at least won't look down upon us.

But, if we kill someone for disrespecting Granths (which are just books for non-Sikhs), we will get a very bad reputation of being Extremists or Radical people.

People might say "You guys are willing to kill a human being for a book". It looks bad, really bad.

Our Satguru is Shabad Guru anyways. No one can disrespect the Shabad/Mantar Guru, which is all-pervading.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[sarabatam]

We need to push the concept of royalty of sri guru granth sahib ji and guru sahib relics to westerners. In this particular, we need to get behind the fact- this person had sword was about to attack guru sahib and sangat, in self defense- he was stopped. This particular case, we can say if someone comes to your house and got hold of the sword- self defense is just, if this scenario was played out at vatican- and some guy got hold of weapon about to attack pilgrims and or pope- result would have same- force would have applied to subdue the threat. Vatican have its own police so as our Sikh nation to uphold dharam and its sanctity. Its all about how we position our response in media. 

[Premi]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

 

People might say "You guys are willing to kill a human being for a book". It looks bad, really bad.

Our Satguru is Shabad Guru anyways. No one can disrespect the Shabad/Mantar Guru, which is all-pervading.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Muslims were/are still ready to kill Salman Rushdie. 

 

[SunnySingh]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

For some of the things bro, like Sexual grooming, Rape, Pedophilia, Murder, Police injustice, etc, if we end up taking the law in our hands, most people (including Westerners) will probably sympathize with us or at least won't look down upon us.

But, if we kill someone for disrespecting Granths (which are just books for non-Sikhs), we will get a very bad reputation of being Extremists or Radical people.

People might say "You guys are willing to kill a human being for a book". It looks bad, really bad.

Our Satguru is Shabad Guru anyways. No one can disrespect the Shabad/Mantar Guru, which is all-pervading.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bro, what a beautiful and a complete post

Hats off really

 

[SunnySingh]

1 hour ago, Premi said:

Muslims were/are still ready to kill Salman Rushdie. 

 

That´s why they are muslims (mostly, very narrow minded people, though there are of course a few exceptions as everywhere and in all walks of life)

[SunnySingh]

2 hours ago, sarabatam said:

We need to push the concept of royalty of sri guru granth sahib ji and guru sahib relics to westerners. In this particular, we need to get behind the fact- this person had sword was about to attack guru sahib and sangat, in self defense- he was stopped. This particular case, we can say if someone comes to your house and got hold of the sword- self defense is just, if this scenario was played out at vatican- and some guy got hold of weapon about to attack pilgrims and or pope- result would have same- force would have applied to subdue the threat. Vatican have its own police so as our Sikh nation to uphold dharam and its sanctity. Its all about how we position our response in media. 

Bhai Jee, if some goon entered the Vatican, the Pope is there .

In our case, we have to be firm, but at all times ask ourselves what would Guru Sahiban have done if present.... Maybe for good or bad,I myself will be first get up and teach that guy a lesson

Anyhow I am more in accordance with what @paapiman has stated above.

[paapiman]

19 hours ago, Premi said:

Muslims were/are still ready to kill Salman Rushdie. 

 

Well, we are not Moslems. Our religion is the best and we are not suppose to follow "Bipran kee Reet".

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

20 hours ago, sarabatam said:

this person had sword was about to attack guru sahib and sangat, in self defense- he was stopped. 

He was already prevented from doing any damage. That's the real issue bro. If they had killed him (by stabbing him with a Kataar or a Kard) right at the spot, then it would not have looked that bad. It could have been easily justified by the Legal term of Self-Defense. 

There is no way that we can justify (using Gurmat) this brutal murder to an ordinary Westerner. He deserved a thrashing, not a lynching.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[sarabatam]

15 minutes ago, paapiman said:

He was already prevented from doing any damage. That's the real issue bro. If they had killed him (by stabbing him with a Kataar or a Kard) right at the spot, then it would not have looked that bad. It could have been easily justified by the Legal term of Self-Defense. 

There is no way that we can justify (using Gurmat) this brutal murder to an ordinary Westerner. He deserved a thrashing, not a lynching.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes i totally agree with that, delayed response and way he was killed is bit troubling for sure, one on one right away took him out...that would have been good approach.

[Premi]

18 hours ago, SunnySingh said:

That´s why they are muslims (mostly, very narrow minded people, though there are of course a few exceptions as everywhere and in all walks of life)

 

29 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Well, we are not Moslems. Our religion is the best and we are not suppose to follow "Bipran kee Reet".

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 Ok, my point was that SGGS Jee is not 'a book' so it's not surprising Sikhs felt so strongly about the incident

 

24 minutes ago, paapiman said:

He was already prevented from doing any damage. That's the real issue bro. If they had killed him (by stabbing him with a Kataar or a Kard) right at the spot, then it would not have looked that bad. It could have been easily justified by the Legal term of Self-Defense. 

There is no way that we can justify (using Gurmat) this brutal murder to an ordinary Westerner. He deserved a thrashing, not a lynching.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

10 minutes ago, sarabatam said:

Yes i totally agree with that, delayed response and way he was killed is bit troubling for sure, one on one right away took him out...that would have been good approach.

Should he just have been given a severe beating ? Maybe 

Let's say hypothetically, a lesson has been learnt now, to not get 'carried away' in future and have a more 'rational ' response to such beadbi?

[GurjantGnostic]

10 hours ago, Premi said:

 

 Ok, my point was that SGGS Jee is not 'a book' so it's not surprising Sikhs felt so strongly about the incident

 

 

Should he just have been given a severe beating ? Maybe 

Let's say hypothetically, a lesson has been learnt now, to not get 'carried away' in future and have a more 'rational ' response to such beadbi?

Indeed Sri Guru Grabth Sahib Ji is no book. We need to communicate to the world, perhaps in a way they can understand, that it's like trying to stab a newborn infant in front if us. And not only that but being used as a systematic form of abuse towards our Paanth. 

[seattlesingh]

20 hours ago, paapiman said:

There is no way that we can justify (using Gurmat) this brutal murder to an ordinary Westerner. He deserved a thrashing, not a lynching.

 

Bro Im sorry if I sound insensitive but why do we need to justify our actions to goray? Lets not place the same goray who for generations looted and exploited indigenous cultures for their own wealth on a pedestal. 

 

Although not related to the beadbi  I personally have an issue with apne bending over backwards for goray. 

[paapiman]

48 minutes ago, seattlesingh said:

Bro Im sorry if I sound insensitive but why do we need to justify our actions to goray? Lets not place the same goray who for generations looted and exploited indigenous cultures for their own wealth on a pedestal. 

 

Although not related to the beadbi  I personally have an issue with apne bending over backwards for goray. 

Bro, like it or not, Western countries are the most advanced countries in the world. We should hold ourselves to higher standards than Goray.

What is the point in repeating that we believe in Sri Aad Gurbani (as our Satguru) over and over again, if we are not going to follow the instructions (of love, tolerance, forgiveness, humility, etc) in it.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

9 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

And not only that but being used as a systematic form of abuse towards our Paanth. 

That is the key issue here, as these incidents have been happening since 2015. There might be a larger conspiracy to incite violence (from Sikhs) at play here.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[seattlesingh]

4 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Bro, like it or not, Western countries are the most advanced countries in the world. We should hold ourselves to higher standards than Goray.

What is the point in repeating that we Believe in Sri Aad Gurbani over and over again, if we are not going to follow the instructions (of love, tolerance, forgiveness, humility, etc) in it.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

- Bro western countries have good infrastructure other than that they have quite deteriorating ideals from radical liberals (transgenders, pronouns, normalizing pedophilia...) 

Also Paapiman ji do you place 10th gurus bani aka Dasam Granth at the same level as Guru Granth Sahib ji? Maybe we can look into the last two lines of the Zafarnama (which in my opinion apply in cases of beadbi as they are not being stopped through love/compassion or any other medium). 

[seattlesingh]

4 minutes ago, seattlesingh said:

- Bro western countries have good infrastructure other than that they have quite deteriorating ideals from radical liberals (transgenders, pronouns, normalizing pedophilia...) 

Also Paapiman ji do you place 10th gurus bani aka Dasam Granth at the same level as Guru Granth Sahib ji? Maybe we can look into the last two lines of the Zafarnama (which in my opinion apply in cases of beadbi as they are not being stopped through love/compassion or any other medium). 

 

sorry its not the last two lines, correction 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, seattlesingh said:

- Bro western countries have good infrastructure other than that they have quite deteriorating ideals from radical liberals (transgenders, pronouns, normalizing pedophilia...) 

Overall speaking, Western countries are the most advanced countries in scientific and medical innovations. There are problems in the Western world. There is no doubt about it, but they are also the best countries when it comes to providing basic human rights to all people (if you go by their constitutions).

Compare the Western world to the rich Islamic countries, in terms of human development and progress.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, seattlesingh said:

 

sorry its not the last two lines, correction 

Thanks bro for quoting the above verses. These actually proves that this lynching was against Gurmat.

All methods of communication were not exhausted in this case. This criminal should have been sent for advanced interrogation techniques by law enforcement or military, in the presence of SGPC task force or Nihang Singhs..

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, seattlesingh said:

Also Paapiman ji do you place 10th gurus bani aka Dasam Granth at the same level as Guru Granth Sahib ji?

As with the Rehatname, if there is any conflict between Sri Dasam Gurbani and Sri Aad Gurbani, Sri Aad Gurbani will take precedence. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf