Do you Consider yourself Indian or Punjabi?

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

Let me make clear where I am coming from

Based on Origin am I Indian? Yes

Based on Birth? No I am English and thus dual inheritor to both cultures

Based on Culture? No, I say Punjabi.

Now why do I distinguish my last answer?

well bullet point wise:-

- The reasons given above

- A country essentially is established by Language. E,g All if Europe is Christian ( Like most of India is Hindu) but Spain, Greece, Russia and UK, their real cultures are based on their language and food etc. Religion is the final factor. So apply that logic to India and it is 25 separate countries that Invaders such as the Mughals and British made into India / Hindustan. Same with local Indian regional empires

- Then based on my logic post 47 India and Pakistan are no more than still part of British Empire. My logic? The law is all in English. Hindi ( a British invented language) and English are used for ruling. How would we feel if we were in a court case an it was conducted in Arabic/ German etc? Same logic.  Language comes first.

- Ok lets go on the word Hindustan. Enough said.

- Following that, 1984

- Literally what is happening now in India..look at all the hate posts on social media, asking for the killing of Sikhs, How different from 80s Congress or 1947?

- So am I Indian? No, in my case I am A British / English Punjabi Sikh, my heritage is Punjab, shared with Punjabi speaking Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians / Atheists.  Language is key, the all else

 

So agree or bitterly disagree?

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

so I know I got no replies here. Maybe it is a dumb question. However this is the stuff I got on CitySikhs Facebook. No where above I said Hindus are not included in being Punjabi. I just feel from my experience if I meet an Indian not from Punjab on the train, pretty soon we are speaking in English because there is no common language and not even our food and cultures are in alignment. However on the same train I meet a Punjabi of any background, including Pakistani, we can ( at least the older generation who don't speak Urdu / Hindi as first language) talk in Punjabi and culturally have a lot in common. 

 

Also I am finding that the lack of education within people from India is lower than those outside about their own countries! I do believe even we are indoctrinated here and that anyone is and to seek the truth they have to watch the news etc not from their country but an outside one to know the truth.. Anyhow snippets below of some of the ridiculous conversation, allegedly linked to my question . People's ID's have been hidden intentionally by me, but you can find original conversation on CitySikhs facebook site.

 

where would you say Guru Gobind singh ji from?

what do you mean when you say Before we became part of India?

Weird person

 man you really need to brush up your history, you know who was Poras?

it became Punjab? It was always there. What are you really talking about? We are known for our geographical position than Religious and we always had this identity.

his is taking it in the wrong direction. Yes Porus ( real name Puna) was from Majha area of modern Punjab and yes Gobind Singh was not from Punjab, but from Patna, but his ancestry just like ours was Punjabi. Like we speak English in UK, he spoke Barj Bhasha ( Hindi as a language did not exist at the time).

so if you know that history, you know this region beyond Indus was always known as warriors. Entire Hinduism belongs to Punjab, all vedas were written on this land, majority of the Rishis were Punjabi including Gorakh Nath,

 

yes but Hindustan is a Mughal regional right down to Tamil Nadu area when they ruled . The term was a western / foreign term for anyone east of river Indus just like European is a term for anyone west of Turkey and Iraq and North of Africa. These are all still separate countries as per language

Considering how I defined myself I would say Guru Gobind was Punjabi Heritage, Bihari by birth and being raised ( much like I am English ) initially Hindu by definition then Sikh by being raised in the Sikh community and then Modern Sikh (Khalsa ) created by himself . The issue I raised had nothing to do with the Gurus so why was it taken in that direction ? The issue was of modern India and it being a state in the way I described

ing Porus was a famous Indian king, his real name was Purushotama. He belonged to PURU tribe mentioned in RIG VEDA, the Ancient books of India. Porus ruled the Punjab region and expanded his kingdom between the Jhelum River and Chenab River in the Indian Subcontinent. He was a legendary warrior and more war skills. He made the army most powerful with war skills. Even Alexander had also made difficulty to defeat Porus. His parents name didn’t know clearly. However, his son name also Porus.

 

you know the timing between both of these historical events?

 

Now what does any of the above have to do with my question?

 

I'd say it's up to the individual how they define their identity.

How much of your identity (as described in detail above) would you say, has been influenced by the events in Panjab, in 1984?

There seems to be a concerted effort to nullify aspects of our inherent Hindu identity, as a result of 1984. And to a degree, that's understandable, as justice hasn't been done. The perpetrators remain free, whilst the affected, have suffered and received no justice.

 

That's a fair point. If you note I did state I recognise I am Indian, just India..secondly you will have noted I included Hindu, Sikh, Muslim and Christian within the definition of being Punjabi. So I am very aware of the Hindu and the Buddhist roots long before any of us became Muslim, Christian or Sikh.. It am defining myself by the two languages I know and the languages of those lands. So Yes English because I am raised in UK and educated in English. But Punjabi because I originate from the Indus Valley which is currently still referred in its western region as Punjab. If we go back to the time of the Reg Vida then like an esteemed poster, Ranvir, above has already mentioned, we came from the land of 7 rivers. so no I don't deny my Hindu / Buddhist past.

 and to deal with your fair point, lack of proper international apology by Congress and the Gandhi family, fake investigations, and the current Right wing ( who this time happen to be SOME Hindu folks) extermists who vote for the current regime inciting hatred by using 1984 monikers on social media etc etc naturally colours my attitude towards India. Is that not understandable? I accept logically of a population of 1 billion Hindus, The RSS mob etc hopefully are not the whole population and no way in 1984 it was a massive part of the population ( If you read my Punjabi fiction you will find its a Hindu character that saves some Sikhs in Delhi 84) who killed Sikhs. But a silent non protesting majority...well that's how Hitler came to power and was able to kill the Jews. You may not see it if you are living in India, but unless Congress and Gandhi family resolve these historical issues and until the current regime doesnt come out of power this is how many Sikhs will feel. Going outside the Sikh aspect, it is logical for me to call myself British / English as I am from here as much as it is logical for a Punjabi Sikh to call themselves Indian, as they are raised there. That is all that means. But yes if you relook at my post the Punjabi Identity includes Hindus and Muslims as well. The language is the identifier in my view and had not the British annexed Punjab today there would be no Pakistan and Ranjit Singh's Punjab at least would have remained independent of modern India ( A British imperial construct) and secular...with Punjabi pride amongst Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Brethren. And my opinion is not fixed or necessarily correct which is why I asked everyone their view. The danger of city sikhs is it has become full of fake RSS trouble makers and no one knows who they are talking to... you or I could have fake Sikh IDs here for example. The admin certainly is prejudice to punjabi language posts

 

 

also I did say in my individual case...I am not speaking for other Punjabis or Sikhs...merely asking their views

 

Seems like online you dont know who you are talking to nor do they make sense

 

i am beginning to wonder if we should all not comment on social media and only have debates with people physically in front of us? Social Media perpetuates hate and misunderstanding??

 

 

[GurjantGnostic]

I think it's a great thread bro. Just can't answer myself. 

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Do you Consider yourself Indian or Punjabi?

 

As I've got older it's become increasingly difficult for me to categorise myself along any nationalistic lines. Although I'm uncomfortable with certain aspects of 'Panjabi culture' as practiced by some Sikhs (i.e. casteism, celebrating alcoholism, an excess of non-intellectual/non-spiritual folk songs etc. etc.), younger mixed race relatives have made me understand that I can't deny my Panjabiness. That being said, I don't see it as anything to write a song and dance about let alone start doing bhangra over....lol.

I spent most of my life in england, but it's acutely obvious that I'm not english (and they'll let you know from time to time, even more so these days). The indian thing is problematic for some of us who grew up through 1984 and what followed afterwards. 

So I found having a primarily Sikh identity the best. Even if I'm very far from being a great Sikh. 

 

[GurjantGnostic]

6 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

 

As I've got older it's become increasingly difficult for me to categorise myself along any nationalistic lines. Although I'm uncomfortable with certain aspects of 'Panjabi culture' as practiced by some Sikhs (i.e. casteism, celebrating alcoholism, an excess of non-intellectual/non-spiritual folk songs etc. etc.), younger mixed race relatives have made me understand that I can't deny my Panjabiness. That being said, I don't see it as anything to write a song and dance about let alone start doing bhangra over....lol.

I spent most of my life in england, but it's acutely obvious that I'm not english (and they'll let you know from time to time). The indian thing is problematic for some of us who grew up through 1984 and what followed afterwards. 

So I found having a primarily Sikh identity the best. Even if I'm very far from being a great Sikh. 

 

That's okay bro. Standard is the highest. Better a Sikh than anything else. No matter how far along. Let's hear it for Sikh identity. 

[GurjantGnostic]

Whole world is more white washed than most us realize at this point. A lot of unlearning to do. Media culture is leading the way for everyone in the wrong direction. 

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

47 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

 

As I've got older it's become increasingly difficult for me to categorise myself along any nationalistic lines. Although I'm uncomfortable with certain aspects of 'Panjabi culture' as practiced by some Sikhs (i.e. casteism, celebrating alcoholism, an excess of non-intellectual/non-spiritual folk songs etc. etc.), younger mixed race relatives have made me understand that I can't deny my Panjabiness. That being said, I don't see it as anything to write a song and dance about let alone start doing bhangra over....lol.

I spent most of my life in england, but it's acutely obvious that I'm not english (and they'll let you know from time to time, even more so these days). The indian thing is problematic for some of us who grew up through 1984 and what followed afterwards. 

So I found having a primarily Sikh identity the best. Even if I'm very far from being a great Sikh. 

 

I get where you are coming from. I say I am English as by being born here,,,how dare I been denied the right to be called English,,,and I guess I am lucky that I live in a Middle Class Gora area where this is not an issue and Goray know about Sikhs..but if we take UK as a whole I know what you mean, and maybe I am disassociating myself with India based on my hobby of writing in Punjabi ( Threatened by Hindi/ Urdu/English) and frankly 1984 and Modi RSS

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

So I found having a primarily Sikh identity the best. Even if I'm very far from being a great Sikh. 

That's the spirit bro. Amazing point.

Our religion is the greatest religion for Humanity.

Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj is the greatest.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

11 hours ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

I get where you are coming from. I say I am English as by being born here,,,how dare I been denied the right to be called English,,,and I guess I am lucky that I live in a Middle Class Gora area where this is not an issue and Goray know about Sikhs..but if we take UK as a whole I know what you mean, and maybe I am disassociating myself with India based on my hobby of writing in Punjabi ( Threatened by Hindi/ Urdu/English) and frankly 1984 and Modi RSS

Don't you think "British" would be a better term for you, rather than "English"?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

5 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Don't you think "British" would be a better term for you, rather than "English"?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

The scottish think so, the irish don't. 

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

On 1/15/2022 at 12:17 AM, paapiman said:

Don't you think "British" would be a better term for you, rather than "English"?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

but we are writing / speaking to each other in English now and Not an Indian language? British implies conquered country , colony, or what the Americans call people from UK or as it originally meant it was the greater Brittany ( smaller being in France) from when French Kings ruled UK.. In sort it is England. UK implies Union, of all, anyhow I was born and raised in England...I have the right to be called it as much as anyone..that said I understand your point as most  people from immigrant groups will call themselves British.

In which case I am a British Punjabi Sikh

[Premi]

16 minutes ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

but we are writing / speaking to each other in English now and Not an Indian language? British implies conquered country , colony, or what the Americans call people from UK or as it originally meant it was the greater Brittany ( smaller being in France) from when French Kings ruled UK.. In sort it is England. UK implies Union, of all, anyhow I was born and raised in England...I have the right to be called it as much as anyone..that said I understand your point as most  people from immigrant groups will call themselves British.

In which case I am a British Punjabi Sikh

I checked out your wiki page, you 'went posh' and moved to Reigate, lol

 

Rupinderpal Singh Dhillon or Roop Dhillon (Punjabi: ਰੂਪਿੰਦਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਧਿੱਲੋਨ, born 1969) is a British Punjabi writer of fiction and poetry.

Early life and education[edit]

Dhillon was born in West London and initially raised in Southall. He studied at Oxford Brookes University and De Montfort University and is an accountant. He has been living in Reigate since the mid 2000s.

.

[SunnySingh]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:03 PM, dalsingh101 said:

So I found having a primarily Sikh identity the best. Even if I'm very far from being a great Sikh. 

By far the best answer, both from a worldly view or a spiritual view.

 

[dalsingh101]

4 minutes ago, SunnySingh said:

">">

By far the best answer, both from a worldly view or a spiritual view.

 

It's handy too. It's not something people can easily exclude me from, even if they try.  

[ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ]

20 hours ago, Premi said:

I checked out your wiki page, you 'went posh' and moved to Reigate, lol

 

Rupinderpal Singh Dhillon or Roop Dhillon (Punjabi: ਰੂਪਿੰਦਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਧਿੱਲੋਨ, born 1969) is a British Punjabi writer of fiction and poetry.

Early life and education[edit]

Dhillon was born in West London and initially raised in Southall. He studied at Oxford Brookes University and De Montfort University and is an accountant. He has been living in Reigate since the mid 2000s.

.

err...i can't stop the public from creating pages about me...but yeah moved out of Southall...:)