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Did Man create God or did God create Man?


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umm the question should be

Did WOMAN create God or did God create WOMAN?

or should i say

Did humans create God or did God create humans?

well the word god was created, but something made humans, and i blame DNA....... carbons, hydrogens, oxygens... etc

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What about the Goddess?She's always left out.No wonder She keeps on trapping Consciousness (God) in Her web, without mercy.

Or creating the illusion of entrapment?Whichever it is, She still needs to be aknowledged a bit more.

Eka Mai Jugat Vi-aa-ee, Tin Chele Parvaan...

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umm the question should be

Did WOMAN create God or did God create WOMAN?

or should i say

Did humans create God or did God create humans?

well the word god was created, but something made humans, and i blame DNA....... carbons, hydrogens, oxygens... etc

i blame sex.....sex created humans...

lalleshvari, your comments please :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

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i blame sex.....sex created humans...

lalleshvari, your comments please :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

Christainty provided a definitive answer to the question... when they invented Adam and Eve... which answered their quesries for some time... until alas !! ...science played the spoil sport...

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God created me, but then i thought i created god, where in fact he created me and let me think that i created myself which lead me astray in thinking that i created god, so if i think i created god im in a state of confusion cos god created me and i want to attain the quailties of god so i think of the quaitlies that god told us he has which we think we made up, but he told us so in fact he created us and we didnt create him.

quite simple really :shock:

how much wood would a woodchuck chuck wood if a woodchuck could chuck wood?? not part of duscussion, but what the hey.

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A child is born because a seed was planted. The child exist because of a seed. God created you so you exist. You did not create God. To say you created god, is to assume he is a Figment of your imagination. you Imagined god so he exists. You are still stuck in your mind. God is beyond the Captivities of the Mind.

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why can't god be a Presence??? Why does GOD have to be always refered to as a "he"???? this is bugging me sooooooo much!! anywayz i think god didn't create humans and i think humans created god... thats my opinion, when you think about it, how do we know for sure?? god to me is a Presence not a "personified" existance however. and we as humans created god to talk about the Presence... this presence is what i think god is, and i think people are wrong to personify god as a personnnnnnnnnnnn so what u think??

one

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why can't god be a Presence??? Why does GOD have to be always refered to as a "he"???? this is bugging me sooooooo much!! anywayz i think god didn't create humans and i think humans created god... god to me is a Presence not a "personified" existance however. and we as humans created god to talk about the Presence... this presence is what i think god is, and i think people are wrong to personify god as a personnnnnnnnnnnn so what u think??

one

slow down sis,

It is only the limitations of the Language that you have to say either a he or she. I could've refereed to god as IT. Would that made u feel better.

How can humans create god????? If Man created god, then there are 6 billion gods, because everyone has created god in their mind.

thats my opinion, when you think about it, how do we know for sure??

Because when you don't exist he still exists. Its like saying when you die the world will die as well. You see people die, but the world still lives on. You will die but god will remain. If he was your creations, without you he could not exist. It is exactly the opposite, You are his Creation, without him you cannot exist. Without Nature you cannot exist. Without the Air/Oxygen you cannot exist. It is because of these things that you came into existance. he is the every breath you take, without that breath of air you cannot survive, so god to you can be Air. You need Air, not the other way around.

Could you have come into exist without your parents?? A god which is the creations of the mind is not God and cannot be God.

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ok i am not attacking you so don't tell me to slow down, am i not intitled to my own opinion?? well anyways what do you say to the people out there who don't beleive in "god", do you just say that's ok, god made you even though you don't know it, isn't that a little ignorant?

maybe you should except other views, and may i add whats wrong with god as being an precence??? And i did not directly target the question just to Pheena.... so no hard feelings!!

Well i never said "MAN" created god, i said humans invented a word for god and thats that precense, and why can't each individual person have their connection to that precence (aka God) so technically there are over a billion million "gods" but its actually just one!!! (hint the saying, OH MY GOD!!) why can't "god" be for me??

I am not selfish, but really god is a precence and everyone can feel it, and he is NOT PERSONIFIED! How would you know if i die?? what if i instead moved to the frouth dimension and become a highly evolved alien?? NO one knows whats after death, so who is to say what is going to happen to "god" and my relation to this presence? you can't assume one thing over the other...

well without oxygen my body cannot function, i have no combustion, therefore i cannot live, but thats just in my biological state, why can a plant exist in no oxygen, or even bacteria?? They are living things too! So technically i don't need air, i need to live, to live i have no purpose, and there is no reason for my purpose, may i add that there are more questions than answers in this world... ANd i possibly could exist without my parents... why can't i be NOT human, its selfish and ignorant to say that "god" is what everything on earth believes.. One should except all religion, all cultures, all things, all views equally.... so i accept your opinion and your thoughts, i however dont' agree with them, and sorry you can't change my mind...

one

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lil_princess: no one's attacking you...it's a simple discussion... don't think that everyone's out to get you...even though it feels like it alot...

and just to point out...in your original post you did actually say "humans created god", not "humans created a word for God"

either way.. i still tend to lean towards Pheena. maybe us 19th-21st century humans created a word for God, but truly, no one knows the intentions and thought process of the first humans to come around with instinct, thought, and intellect.

and again... lil_princess, it's the play on language.... in punjabi, there is no word for he or she, at least not to my brutal knowledge of the language....the only thing that comes to mind is "mundiya" and "kuriyay" hehe... i doubt anyone would call God either of those in Punjabi... therefore God is referred to as Akal Purakh...Rub.... Dharam Raj....whatever you wanna use. English...or more appropriately, Western Civilization refers to God as He... in fact, if you find certain shabads, techinically we are allll female, and we are to merge with our Husband-Lord... but yea, these are vague translations from a language with so many roots..maybe lalleshvari veerji can help us on that one..

don't get me wrong.... you make a pretty decent point.. but let's face it... Human intellect doesn't even HAVE the capability to think or create up something as spectacular as God. Although in Sikhi, we can recognize all names for God signifying the only One God, this discussion seems to be looked at from a very objective, non-biased view. Your logic doesn't totally fit with either Hindu belief nor does it totally fit with Christian Belief. It doesn't entirely fit with Sikh Belief, as the act of taking amrit is saying that you've got God with you everywhere...not spiritually, but physically a part of you...

my two cents.....

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Guest BikramjitSingh

It depends.

If God is limited, displays all the emotions and shortcomings that man has and is also subject to the five vices of Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar then that God is created by man.

If God is beyond hate, is about unconditional love and doesn't hate someone just because he refuses to believe in God or believes in an entirely different God then that God is the one that created man.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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ok i am not attacking you so don't tell me to slow down, am i not intitled to my own opinion?? well anyways what do you say to the people out there who don't beleive in "god", do you just say that's ok, god made you even though you don't know it, isn't that a little ignorant?

well you said it is bugging you tht people refer to god as a he/she. So i felt you were being annoyed, so i simply told u to slow down. it wasn't inteded to offend you.

ummmm i don't see your point. Its like someone having Amnesia. To tell them that these are your parents becuase you know they are. But the person who has Amnesia has no recolection of them being their parents, how is that ignorent. Everyone has Amnesia of God. Those who are Awakended/Enlightened have every right to say what they have Experience.

maybe you should except other views, and may i add whats wrong with god as being an precence??? And i did not directly target the question just to Pheena.... so no hard feelings!!

Noting is wrong with god being a Precense, but to have a Relationship with that presence makes you more involved and creates a bond. How do u make a bond with a Presence. You are not wrong by thinking god is a Presence, but To take it further craete a relationship.

Guru Nanak dev ji said, You are my mother, father, brother, Friend. A relationship is much more influcential on the mind than just thinking of god as a presence. He is Present everywhere.

Well i never said "MAN" created god, i said humans invented a word for god and thats that precense, and why can't each individual person have their connection to that precence (aka God) so technically there are over a billion million "gods" but its actually just one!!! (hint the saying, OH MY GOD!!) why can't "god" be for me??

i think god didn't create humans and i think humans created god

Human is man. LIke JJJ said, you didn't' say humans invented the word God.

You can have a connection, when did i say you couldn't. Well you said humans invented God. so every human can invent its own god...therfore there is no limit to the imagination of the mind, hence 6 billion gods.

Perhaps you need to define what you mean when you say god. are you referring to the Devine Being or just the Word invented by humans??

If you are talking about simply the word god, then you needed to be more specific in your posts, that makes this whole reply pointless.

I am not selfish, but really god is a precence and everyone can feel it, and he is NOT PERSONIFIED! How would you know if i die?? what if i instead moved to the frouth dimension and become a highly evolved alien?? NO one knows whats after death, so who is to say what is going to happen to "god" and my relation to this presence? you can't assume one thing over the other...

well you are exactly right, no one knows what happens after death, but thru the knowledge of Holy texts written by Gurus/ Avatars we have a pretty good idea. You are just letting your imagination run wild, I can even say I am not human, that I are from another planet. I am here to study humans. You see if you start to think like that there is no end to the Imagination of the mind, of the Fantasies and other dimensions it will create. You cannot Find the Gyaan that Guru Nanak held thru the mind. You have to go Beyond the mind, into Nothiness. You are still trapped in the mind.

well without oxygen my body cannot function, i have no combustion, therefore i cannot live, but thats just in my biological state, why can a plant exist in no oxygen, or even bacteria?? They are living things too! So technically i don't need air, i need to live, to live i have no purpose, and there is no reason for my purpose, may i add that there are more questions than answers in this world... ANd i possibly could exist without my parents... why can't i be NOT human, its selfish and ignorant to say that "god" is what everything on earth believes.. One should except all religion, all cultures, all things, all views equally.... so i accept your opinion and your thoughts, i however dont' agree with them, and sorry you can't change my mind...

Well you created God not plants. You in True Self the Aatma do not need anything, because you are the Purest of the Pure. But we are not talking about the soul. We are discussing what you said that you created god. I Think you need to slow down your thinking, you are going completely off the topic here.

Let me gather everything here.

You said. You(humans) created God not the other way around.

So if he was your creation. The why aren't you incarge of your life. Why do things happen to you without your permission. Why are you not the Master of your life. Can you control your death?? Did you ask to be born? Can you stop the bad things from happening in your life??

If you are in Control, then don't let this body get old. There is another force at work which is running this world and you. That force is not you.

You did not create God. the mind created the word God, The mind cannot capture the true essence of God. God is beyond the mind and time. The word God cannot give you the full description of God. It is still a word. Anything Created can be destroyed. The word God created by the mind of man is nothing more than a word...its points to what allah is. It cannot tell you "WHAT" god is. It triggers this rememberence of his vitues his presence.

EDIT:

One more thing, you said i haven't changed your mind. Understand this...no one can change your mind until you are ready to accept change. Sometimes such Great Souls carry such strenght in their words that they change your views without you realizeing what just happened.

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Interesting discussion. I agree with Lil Princess's comment about God being a presence. I was actually referring to the idea of God people have invented. I mean when a child is in the womb, does he bother about whether God exists, whether he is happy with him, or angry with him? Why do we as humans have to depend on this idea of God? Is it a projection of our fears? A saying comes to mind 'Humanity's first sin was faith, it's first virtue; doubt'.

I probably sound like an atheist saying all this, I just wonder why we fear God, have you known anyone who has no fear of God? Only pure love? When we are young, our parents say don't do this, God will be angry with you. Or this is not the way to please Vaheguru. Why do we have this need to please God? God doesn't need praising surely, Guru Ji in Japuji says; Vada na hovey ghaat na jaye, juga jugantar khahi khahe'.

I think if you fall in love with the qualities of God, if you praise the qualities of God out of love, not fear as other religions believe in, we can assume the same qualities with time, then what is the difference between ourselves and God?

Were the Guru's Gods? Why do people find it hard to accept that they were God if they had the qualities of God. It's because they have this idea of God being a ruler, a separate entity, so far away from us, powerful, unattainable. When in fact God is nothing but a presence, a whole.

A man walking in the night slipped from a rock afraid that he would fall down thousands of feet, because he knew that place was a very deep valley, he took hold of a branch that was hanging over the rock. In the night all he could see was a bottomless abyss. He shouted; his own shout was reflected back - there was nobody to fear.

You can imagine that man and his whole night of torture. Every moment there was death, his hands were becoming cold, he was losing his grip, and as the sun came out he looked down and he laughed; there was no abyss. Just six inches down there was a rock. he could have rested the whole night, slept well - the rock was big enough - but the whole night was a nightmare.

There's nothing to fear?

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Interesting discussion. I agree with Lil Princess's comment about God being a presence. I was actually referring to the idea of God people have invented. I mean when a child is in the womb, does he bother about whether God exists, whether he is happy with him, or angry with him? Why do we as humans have to depend on this idea of God? Is it a projection of our fears? A saying comes to mind 'Humanity's first sin was faith, it's first virtue; doubt'.

I probably sound like an atheist saying all this, I just wonder why we fear God, have you known anyone who has no fear of God? Only pure love? When we are young, our parents say don't do this, God will be angry with you. Or this is not the way to please Vaheguru. Why do we have this need to please God? God doesn't need praising surely, Guru Ji in Japuji says; Vada na hovey ghaat na jaye, juga jugantar khahi khahe'.

I think if you fall in love with the qualities of God, if you praise the qualities of God out of love, not fear as other religions believe in, we can assume the same qualities with time, then what is the difference between ourselves and God?

Were the Guru's Gods? Why do people find it hard to accept that they were God if they had the qualities of God. It's because they have this idea of God being a ruler, a separate entity, so far away from us, powerful, unattainable. When in fact God is nothing but a presence, a whole.

A man walking in the night slipped from a rock afraid that he would fall down thousands of feet, because he knew that place was a very deep valley, he took hold of a branch that was hanging over the rock. In the night all he could see was a bottomless abyss. He shouted; his own shout was reflected back - there was nobody to fear.

You can imagine that man and his whole night of torture. Every moment there was death, his hands were becoming cold, he was losing his grip, and as the sun came out he looked down and he laughed; there was no abyss. Just six inches down there was a rock. he could have rested the whole night, slept well - the rock was big enough - but the whole night was a nightmare.

There's nothing to fear?

i wish i could give you details about names of wiriters and stuff..or maybe this is even in baani... i'm really sorry about this, but i read SOMEWHERE, that it's the young infant, the young child that has a more connection with God than any other human being. it is when the child gets infected by all the poison in the world that everything disappears. i'll try to make sense of it from a karma point of view:

let's say you're going on your first human life. God will be there with you and will have that bond from the second you are born, because as baani says, human life is your only shot at merging back with God.

or lets say that you've got such good karma with you, not enough to make the jump to merge with waheguru, but to repeat your life as a human. Of Course God is gonna be right there, right beside you. it is only when you let Him (yes... Him) go that he's not there with you...

Gurpreet kaur bhanji, i understand your saying about how God doesn't need any more praising, but imagine the consequence when everyone started NOT praising God. imagine if it went as far as that people started thinking they were greater than God (ref:saeen baba :roll: :roll: ). Baani tells us that we hafta fear God in our quest to achieve salvation.

BUT FROM A NON-SIKHI, OBJECTIVE, NON-BIASED, VIEWPOINT, your question makes total sense.

Gurus were not God. that's nothing debateable. But they feared God just as much as they praised God. It's kind of like the burning coal theory. you've got one coal that's burning, and you throw it into a whole pile of coal. essentially, if we were to personify the coal, the coal would WANT to be burning. it would WANT to be and feel useful, correct? by that thinking, think of that first burning piece of Coal as Guru... think of all the rest of the coals as us. until we're one with Guru, we can't consider ourselves to even begin to merge with God.

your story aobut the man and night makes sense. but are we referring to God as a nightmare? or when we fear him, are we just accepting the fact that everything is in His doing?

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Interesting discussion. I agree with Lil Princess's comment about God being a presence. I was actually referring to the idea of God people have invented. I mean when a child is in the womb, does he bother about whether God exists, whether he is happy with him, or angry with him? Why do we as humans have to depend on this idea of God? Is it a projection of our fears? A saying comes to mind 'Humanity's first sin was faith, it's first virtue; doubt'.

The question is not who is god, but rather who are you? When you find yourself you will find God. Some people say you need to believe in something greater because you feel so helpless sometimes. To belive in something greater (god) is to feel relieved taht there is someone who is watching over us. That this world is not just randomly occuring phenomena. There is an Order in this world. That order of his Will.

I Personally believe in god because im want to know who I Am. To find out who i am....if i am a part of him as our GURU says, as the Vedas proclaim, as the many Sants and guru alive today talka bout. That I/we are no other than waheguru, all that is needes is the realization which is obtained by teh Grace of the Guru. I do not fear God, because whatever he does, he has a purpose behind him. To fear god is to think that he will punish me for comitting a sin. But it is not he who punishes it is I myself who has committed a sin, so it is I who will Reap the fruit of the seed I have sown. I do not bring god in this. He created a Law of Cause and Effect and left the Karma up to us.

I probably sound like an atheist saying all this, I just wonder why we fear God, have you known anyone who has no fear of God? Only pure love? When we are young, our parents say don't do this, God will be angry with you. Or this is not the way to please Vaheguru. Why do we have this need to please God? God doesn't need praising surely, Guru Ji in Japuji says; Vada na hovey ghaat na jaye, juga jugantar khahi khahe'.

Fear of god Stops you of doing sins. To have Fear of our Parents, the child will think twice before doing something he isn't suppose to do. That fear helps you control your mind. Your mind needs this fear of the law so Society will not become a an out of control organization. That fear of the law is needed. It is needed because your mind is not able to hold back its desires and wants. That fear is nesecessary. But Guru ji also said, Waheguru is the Forgiver of all Forgivers.

Were the Guru's Gods? Why do people find it hard to accept that they were God if they had the qualities of God. It's because they have this idea of God being a ruler, a separate entity, so far away from us, powerful, unattainable. When in fact God is nothing but a presence, a whole.

God exists where you (ego) does not exist. Good points. :)

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im goin to make this short cuz i have to wake early and i have a big day ahead of me tommorow....

say if i was brought up on an island, with NO human contact, i would not have been exposed to any human thoughts or religions or teachings....

so isn't it true that i wouldn't know what "god" is??

isnt' it true if it wasn't for my parents or the people around me, or society as a whole i would have no contact with "god" it would be unknown to me, but thanks to people around me they conditioned me to think this way, and that is just like science, everything we do and say all came from previous experiances or sayings or lectures or people or mothers or books..... so humans are flawed..?! did we make up things?? maybe i am thinking to much, but thats what i like to do, and i think its healthy of me to question about my religion and others, or else i would just be following the crowd and excepting concepts that don't make sense to me.... for all the people who are interested in learning and intereseted in sharing you need to ask questions and you need to think out of the box.. thats what i am doing, and if that is questioning and not following some of my "religion" that so be it, i just use it as a guide line like everyone else....

and as an off topic note may i add the term "ego" which i see a lot misused from its original intention, if u study phsyc, which i just did an intro too, so im no expert, but ego is what you can control, super ego is the good side of what you want something to do, and id is the i want stuff, the "evil" side that we all want...

one

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say if i was brought up on an island, with NO human contact, i would not have been exposed to any human thoughts or religions or teachings....

so isn't it true that i wouldn't know what "god" is??

isnt' it true if it wasn't for my parents or the people around me, or society as a whole i would have no contact with "god" it would be unknown to me, but thanks to people around me they conditioned me to think this way, and that is just like science, everything we do and say all came from previous experiances or sayings or lectures or people or mothers or books..... so humans are flawed..?! did we make up things??

You wouldn't know what god is, even those who live in Soceity don't know what god is or they choose not to accept it, which is an individual decision no one can force you to do so. Like i said earlier, you cannot change until you are willing to accept change itself. You will not and cannot find god until you are willing to look for him. But in neither of those situations does it nullify the existance of god.

You are depending on society or your parents to tell you what god is or in some way influence you into thinking that there is god.

The first question asked by man couldn't have been "Is there is a god?", but rather It must have been "Who Am I?"

To find youself is to find god, and to find yourself you don't need Soceity. YOu need a path which leads you inwards which is Religion. You need someone who already has found himself a Guru, a Master. Science is the path of outwardness, but it can only lead you to the inside of your body, but cannot explain who you are.

Humans are not flawed, what is Flawed is the Mind, but it will be that same mind that takes you to the Gurudwara, it is the same mind who will give money to the poor. But what is flawed are the Intentions of the Mind from which it does work. It is a selfish mind which does only to make its ego stronger. Flaw cannot come out of unflawless nature. If we are flawed then Nature is Flawed. From Truth only Truth can come out, not lies. The Flaw is the Illusion, Flaw is the Maya. Flaw is the curtain which is over your eyes. Flaw is a Dream. Flaw is the Ego which mind has created to seperate himself as an self-existing individual. It is the Flaw of the mind an illusion of the mind that it starts to believe in this flaw of EGO.

and as an off topic note may i add the term "ego" which i see a lot misused from its original intention, if u study phsyc, which i just did an intro too, so im no expert, but ego is what you can control, super ego is the good side of what you want something to do, and id is the i want stuff, the "evil" side that we all want...

one

The Ego which i talk about is the EGO which has seperated itself as the one who is the Doer behind his life. I Did this. I am. It is the Ego which is telling you that you are seperate from God, when that EGO desolves there will be no YOU, only him. As long as that I is there God cannot be. Only one can exist in your heart, either it will be YOU or GOD. YOu can't have the World and God residing in your heart.

It is that same Ego which get hurt when someoen tells you that you are wrong. That EGO which tells you that you have accomplised something. When you bow to the SGGS you surrender your EGO. It is that EGO. That EGO which asks for acceptance from other when you have done something great for Soceity or an Individual. When you give money to the Poor, it is that EGO which steps up to accept the Thanks given to you by that poor man.

I hope i explained that well.. please correct me if i said soemthing wrong

Waheguru.

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Guys,

God created humans through the laws of Physics/Evolution, just like he/she/it created everything else. This question is only relevent to the semitic religions like Christianity/Islam/Judaism, because they have personal "human like" gods, whereas Aryan religions like Sikhism and Buddhism don't. Basically, this question has no meaning for Sikhism.

KR,

MI

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Guys,

God created humans through the laws of Physics/Evolution, just like he/she/it created everything else. This question is only relevent to the semitic religions like Christianity/Islam/Judaism, because they have personal "human like" gods, whereas Aryan religions like Sikhism and Buddhism don't. Basically, this question has no meaning for Sikhism.

KR,

MI

hmm Buddhists are Agnostics/atheists arn't they :S

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Mission Impossible Ji, I agree with you.

In the original question I was referring to the personal God created by these semitic religions, a God we must fear, a God who passes judgement to satisfy his ego, not the experience promised by Sikhi.

I think God is a quality, and it was present in our Gurus and many Mahapurukhs in Chardi Kala. Let's not fear, but fall in love with 'God' or the Guru.

saach keho(n) sun laehu sabhai jin praem keeou thin hee prabh paaeiou ||9|| 29 ||

gur paramaesar eaeko jaan ||

Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.

har kaa saevak so har jaehaa ||

The Lord's servant becomes like the Lord.

bhaedh n jaanahu maanas dhaehaa ||

Do not think that, because of his human body, he is different.

ijau jl qrMg auTih bhu BwqI iPir sllY sll smwiedw ]8]

jio jal thara(n)g out(h)ehi bahu bhaathee fir salalai salal samaaeidhaa||8||

The waves of the water rise up in various ways, and then the water merges again in water. ||8||

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