If a Sikh took Amrit and lied later, is he a Khalsa or not ?

[Harjinder]

If a Sikh took Amrit and lied later, is he a Khalsa or not?

:!: :!:

It is like asking whether a person is an American or not if he/she did something which is

against the constitution. We know he remains an American but as a criminal or a guilty person

depending upon the actions he did. Lying is a kind of cheating through words, which is an

un-Sikh like act. A Sikh is not expected to tell a lie. Lying is a sinful for every person, whether a

Sikh is or not.

Life involves many aspects of our activities. Think of a student who has to learn many

subjects and practice sports. One student may be good in studies and poor in sports, while the

other may be good in sports but poor in studies. We recognize students by their total

achievements. Similarly, a Sikh may be good in one aspect of life, but not in the others. Gurmat

says.

Instead of finding faults with others and requiring them to live a pious life, let us look for virtues

in the people and try to live a virtuous life ourselves.[Guru Granth Page 766 ]

3. How are Amritdharis different from those Sikhs who live by Guru Granth Sahib, but do

not wear the 5 symbols? How are they different from those people who serve humanity as

a Khalsa is supposed to do?

Who is a better Sikh: he who is an Amritdhari, keeps 5 symbols and reads all Paath

regularly, but does not live honestly; OR he who is not Amritshak, not wearing the 5

symbols, but lives a truthful life as a Sikh is supposed to live?

Why do people become Amritshak even though they know they are not going on the

right path? I see people doing wrong things while they are Amritdhari Sikhs.

[Mugermach Singh]

A Sikh is not expected to tell a lie. Lying is a sinful for every person, whether a Sikh is or not.

lying can be sinful, but we can lie.

eg. a mob comes to your house to kill your dad.... Your dad drinking cha, you open the door, you aint gonna say "come in Ji, hes drinking cha", your gonna lie and say "he's not here, or he's left the country"

no point lying over little things, if your gonna lie, do it properly, but you need to do for the right reasons.

Why do people become Amritshak even though they know they are not going on the

right path? I see people doing wrong things while they are Amritdhari Sikhs.

dude you said the above. I answer your question, using words from your orginal post below.

Instead of finding faults with others and requiring them to live a pious life, let us look for virtues

in the people and try to live a virtuous life ourselves.[Guru Granth Page 766 ]

[jsb]

no point lying over little things, if your gonna lie, do it properly, but you need to do for the right reasons.

hahaha priceless....it's like...if you're gonna get arrested, it might as well be for murder and posession!

one thing i DO wanna know though, is how come we're so obsessed with the few amritdharis who disgrace it, and not obsessed with the millions who didn't?

[Mugermach Singh]

hahaha priceless....it's like...if you're gonna get arrested, it might as well be for murder and posession!

jhatka is not murder, its a given right. lol and Posession... *Cough*, dont know what you mean *cough* *liar* *cough* *cough* need night nurse.

one thing i DO wanna know though, is how come we're so obsessed with the few amritdharis who disgrace it, and not obsessed with the millions who didn't?

No comment.... cos i dont want to be one of those obsessed people.

[Khandaydhaar]

yea jst dont give a stuff abt wat ppl do either theyr amritdari or not who cares, dont care abt ne1, jst worry abt ureself no1 is perfect aye...

who knows wat som1 is goin through or wat their probs r, maybe theyr goin through so much hell dat they cant control it...who knows...ppl r complex...jst worry abt ureself..dnt condemn ne1...or wateva even tho somtimes u really wana...do it in ure head...and den ask God for forgiveness..man i dono...jst chill

i myself lie somtimes, which aint good i know...but im tryn to stop completely...but i know if i had to lie, it wud be cuz i dont wana hurt ne1s feelns or make things worse...but yea overall im a pretty straight up person..newayz who cares

later 8)

[Pheena]

Liying to Protect the Truth is not a Sin.

[Khandaydhaar]

how can u protect da Truth by lying?????soundz weird since lies dont have a foundation...the Truth always stands on it own...and da Truth doesnt need ne lies to protect it...know wat im sayn...God is Truth so how can a lie protect Truth?????? yo wakey wakey.... :twisted:

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

I think you're going down a whole moral minefield if you think that lying to protect the truth is o.k. Surely this is a contradiction in terms. If the truth needs lies to protect it then is it really the truth ??

Sachahu ourai sabh ko oupar sach aachaar ( M1. SGGS page 62 )

Truth is higher than al things but higher still is truthful living.

It isn't o.k. to lie fullstop.

We are supposed to look at the lives of all the Gurus as well as the Gursikhs as exemplary. Think about all those occasions that the GurSikhs could have lied and protected themselves from harm.

If it was o.k. to deceive than wouldn't all those Sikh martyrs just have cut their hair when there was a danger to their lives and then have just grown their hair again when the danger was over.

I agree with Jsb which seems to a first here !. There is a tendency to imply that most Amritdharis are hypocrites and non-Amritdharis are some how angels. This is not true there is hypocrites in all areas of Sikhi.

[Khandaydhaar]

yea ur darn rite liein is bad fullstop.

ima stop lying completely..

i hate lyin

:x

[Pheena]

how can u protect da Truth by lying?????soundz weird since lies dont have a foundation...the Truth always stands on it own...and da Truth doesnt need ne lies to protect it...know wat im sayn...God is Truth so how can a lie protect Truth?????? yo wakey wakey.... :twisted:

Read what Mugermach Singh wrote.

another example. If some man is chasing a woman to beat her or to hurt her she runs inside of your house. The man comes to your door looking for her.

You can hold your vow to speaking the Truth, tell him that she is inside the house so he can grab her, beat her, possibly kill her. How good is your vow when someone suffers from it.

If you lie that she is not inside, you are protecting the truth.

Lie to protect the Truth.

Im not sure the name of this Gursikh, but when asked by the Mogul invader where Mata Gujree and the Sehabjadays were, he lied and told them that they were at his house, when they were not. He lied to protect the truth.

[Mugermach Singh]

if you are going to lie, do it properly,

if you are going to steal, do it properly.

there are always too sides to the story.

eg. to steal, Bidi Chand (not sure if it was, correct me if im wrong) stole two horses did he not??, No wait, he didnt steal, he took back what was his, no wait again, he did steal.... All depends which side you look from....

to lie.... Im not lying when i said its ok to lie. Lie if you wish, but dont do it over stupid things.

for those that say they dont lie, you guys would be useless at the card game 'bluff' or 'bullspit'

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Pheena

How about having the courage to actually defend that woman against t that guy instead of just lying and telling him the woman isn't inside ?.

If you are weak and do not have the courage to confront this guy then I suppose lying is o.k.

Magarmuch

Is getting back what was originally stolen from you stealing ?

[Pheena]

Pheena

How about having the courage to actually defend that woman against t that guy instead of just lying and telling him the woman isn't inside ?.

If you are weak and do not have the courage to confront this guy then I suppose lying is o.k.

You are missing the point veer, You can't always revert to fighting, it is not an answer to every situation. Someone who chooses not fight does not mean he is weak. You have to be able to distinguish when it is right to take up a sword and when it is time to walk away or resort to verbal communication. Confontation is not the answer in this situation.

It is " When all other means fail, then it is righteous to take up a sword". You haven't even tried any other means yet and you are ready to fight.

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Pheena

maybe I've got the thread all wrong but isn't this about whether an Amritdhari should lie or not after taking Amrit ?.

Does the Rehat Maryada allow an Amritdhari to lie in certain situations?. You state that a fight is not always the answer but surely it is better to defend the woman by showing the man chasing her a bold front with the backing of your Kirpan rather than lie about whether the woman is there or not.

We are usually told that the Khalsa is supposed to help the weak but I had always assumed it meant that we should defend them physically and not through the use of lies.

[Khandaydhaar]

If you lie that she is not inside, you are protecting the truth.

Lie to protect the Truth.

ure lyin to protect a lie...da lady is a lie...wat truth are u protectin? r u saying she is da Truth??? u cud be lying to protect da lady...but dat dsnt mean that she is Truth...Truth is God.. :?

We are usually told that the Khalsa is supposed to help the weak but I had always assumed it meant that we should defend them physically and not through the use of lies.

yea y lie to protect som1...Guru says 'Shub karman tey kabhuu na daroo, nissjai kar apni jeet karo'

be a man and fight till da end...dont lie man...datz takn da shortcut...kinda cowardish...im a girl, if i was faced wid situation..id fight...

'Soora So Pehchaneeaay Jo Laray Deen Kay Hayt, Purja Purja Kat maray Kabhuu Na Chaday Khaayt'

8)

[Pheena]

ure lyin to protect a lie...da lady is a lie...wat truth are u protectin? r u saying she is da Truth??? u cud be lying to protect da lady...but dat dsnt mean that she is Truth...Truth is God.. :?

The lady is not a Lie. The Truth is that she is inside your house. You are protecting that Truth that she is inside your house by telling a lie to the Man who is looking for her by saying she is not in the house.

You are trying too hard to understand this simple concept veer, understand it for its simplicity.

[Pheena]

Pheena

maybe I've got the thread all wrong but isn't this about whether an Amritdhari should lie or not after taking Amrit ?.

Does the Rehat Maryada allow an Amritdhari to lie in certain situations?. You state that a fight is not always the answer but surely it is better to defend the woman by showing the man chasing her a bold front with the backing of your Kirpan rather than lie about whether the woman is there or not.

We are usually told that the Khalsa is supposed to help the weak but I had always assumed it meant that we should defend them physically and not through the use of lies.

when ALL OTHER MEANS FAIL, then it is righteous to take up a sword.

Confrontation is the last straw...not the first.

Is there a Chance that you could lose to this man in a battle?? Is there a chance that if you do lose he could come into your house and do more harm tothe members of your family than just taking the woman and leaving. You are inviting Trouble inside your home. A simply mis-direction to the man isn't harmfull. If you have such faith and courage in you to defend the woman then exaust all other means before you draw your sword.

If you are asking me what the Rehat says, i wouldn't know veer, i heard that from 2 different Sant's Kathas, so i decided to share it.

[Mugermach Singh]

Ok people. seems to me that people are not understanding what i am trying to say. so i will try to be more specfic. i am sorry for the long post in advance as i too am a lazy ass and wouldnt be bothered to read it.

Pheena

How about having the courage to actually defend that woman against t that guy instead of just lying and telling him the woman isn't inside ?.

If you are weak and do not have the courage to confront this guy then I suppose lying is o.k.

i know you didnt ask me, but i will reply anyway

Having courage does not mean getting beaten up for no reason. If i know a person is physically stronger then me, im not going to engage into a situation with them, unless there is no alternative, and if that is so, then i will make sure i am prepared.

Courage is not measured on stupidity, asking the person to come in is Stupid. Courage is not also measured on the size of you balls, even if they are made of steel...

If you want to measure courage and attain it, kiss the feet of the Guru, he will give you courage.

Magarmuch

Is getting back what was originally stolen from you stealing ?

All depends on which side you wish to see the story.

It is " When all other means fail, then it is righteous to take up a sword". You haven't even tried any other means yet and you are ready to fight.

Well said, sometimes even Lying is another means. But dont lie over little things. Life and death is a big thing, getting grounded isnt the end of the world. Must take the consquences into condiseration. I personaly would lie at the example given, one reason reason why is... You could get Killed.

Pheena

maybe I've got the thread all wrong but isn't this about whether an Amritdhari should lie or not after taking Amrit ?.

Does the Rehat Maryada allow an Amritdhari to lie in certain situations?. You state that a fight is not always the answer but surely it is better to defend the woman by showing the man chasing her a bold front with the backing of your Kirpan rather than lie about whether the woman is there or not.

We are usually told that the Khalsa is supposed to help the weak but I had always assumed it meant that we should defend them physically and not through the use of lies.

Khalsa is not Stupid. Why should we automaticaly defend the women. She could be lying too, could be tring to get her freinds into your house to rob you.......

Calm the situation. There are many possiblities.

Just cos you have a kirpan, doesnt mean that you know how to use it. First learn to use a shaster, you never know what the other person has.

Khalsa won many fights by cursing the enemy and lying to them. One entire fauj was saved cos they lied, they said they were not Sikhs. And then came back to kill the pathans.

Amrit or no Amrit, commen sense is commen sense. Only main difference is that person who has taken Amrit, agrees to educate themselves in Bani, hence, their commen sense is even better, unless they read bani like a person lighting a candle so a blind man can see where they are going. going on a tangent, gonna stop.

ure lyin to protect a lie...da lady is a lie...wat truth are u protectin? r u saying she is da Truth??? u cud be lying to protect da lady...but dat dsnt mean that she is Truth...Truth is God..

Dude, i wish i never run to your house.

yea y lie to protect som1...Guru says 'Shub karman tey kabhuu na daroo, nissjai kar apni jeet karo'

be a man and fight till da end...dont lie man...datz takn da shortcut...kinda cowardish...im a girl, if i was faced wid situation..id fight...

your quote has nothing to do with your comment.

A foolish man will fight till the end (which i assume you mean to death), a clever man (Khalsa) will fight and Win and Rise to Fight again and Again. If you were a Girl, and faced with this situaion, fight you may, but one thing for sure, even thouse women are 4 time clever then men, you would and average man.. Only joking veer ji, no offence intended.

[Khandaydhaar]

aite wateva wateva

so u wana decieve and do wateva and den wen u c ure decievn wont work so den u will pick up ur sword. aite i c

ok den u can do dat and lie all u want..it really dosnt mata...da topic was

is a person still khalsa if they lied after takn amrit...well bottom line..lying isnt good...if u lie once ur gona lie again and again to protect ure lie...

beta to be straight up jst like Guru Gobind Singh Ji told Aurangzeb abt his good points and his bad points straight up...i think it was in da zafarnama or somthing. i do agree dat somtimes lies can be used for good reasons, but still it aint good. thats wat i think..dsnt mean u have to think dat way actually im a penji not a paaji aite a penji :roll:

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Magarmach

So the story of Bidhi Chand can be viewed as in two different wasy depending on which side you are on.

A Sikh wishes to gift horses of Guru Hargobind which are confiscated by the Mughal governor and Bhai Bidhi Chand takes the horese back and passes them to Guru Hargobind. Pretty straightforward I think.

Your over analysing of the story of the woman trying to get away from a man chasing her made me laugh. By the time you've analysed the situation the woman might be dead by the time you've decided on what to do.

The problem with being able to lie about something is that each and every lie inevitably leads to another lie and then in the end you can use any justification to lie.

[Khandaydhaar]

The problem with being able to lie about something is that each and every lie inevitably leads to another lie and then in the end you can use any justification to lie.

yea cuz den dey run outta more lies and so they make up some kinda silly reason dat well dis is wat i lied for cuz bla bla bla....bla bla...yea wateva - lyin is wrong bottom line :!: :roll:

[Mugermach Singh]

The problem with being able to lie about something is that each and every lie inevitably leads to another lie and then in the end you can use any justification to lie.

true, some people dont know when to stop. But thats the thing, you need to know your limits and go up to the line but not cross it.

Im not telling people that they should lie, but to say that were are not allowed to lie at all is wrong too. Those that say it (in my eyes) are liars, so they lie too.

[Khandaydhaar]

Im not telling people that they should lie, but to say that were are not allowed to lie at all is wrong too. Those that say it (in my eyes) are liars, so they lie too.

wen i took amrit tha panj payrays told me not to lie. was tat wrong?? Guru Roop panj payarays.

do u guys know ne quote from SGGSji dat says lyin is wrong? jst askn

[Guest]

than sachaa rasanaa sach raathee sach sun aakh vakhaananiaa

:bow:

[Pheena]

wen i took amrit tha panj payrays told me not to lie. was tat wrong?? Guru Roop panj payarays.

Well obviously they are not wrong. What the Panj Payrays meant is that don't lie for the sake of lying. Don't justify your actions by lying. Don't lie in a Habit. Don't Lie to Hurt others. Don't lie to gain appraise.

Even Murder can be Justified if its done in a defense. What good are your hands if you cannot defend you own life.

A lie can be justified if its done for the right reasons. That lie which is protecting something far more important.

Didn't the Singhs Lie to protect our Guru Gobind Singh when he was sorounded by the Mogul Armies in the city Machi Wara (im sure that was the city, if not please correct me) they carried him on their shoulders and when the Mogul's stopped them and asked who Guru Gobind singh ji was they told them that he was Uch tha Peer.

Im sure thas how the story went, but if im wrong please correct me.

They did not stop and draw their sword to fight, they used their Demaag.

Understand this for you to save someone drowning in a mud, you yourself cannot be afraid of getting dirty.