weapons+blood = ritualism???

[Sharan]

I heard recently that after animals have been killed by jhatka, the blood is smeared on weapons because weapons are worshipped by sikhs as they have the ability to take and save lives. Does this not equal ritualism on the same level as hindus who feed milk to statues? was not the whole point guru nanak was making to move away from rituals and instead just worship waheguru? Please can anyone clarify this for me?

[SAadmin]

I heard recently that after animals have been killed by jhatka, the blood is smeared on weapons because weapons are worshipped by sikhs as they have the ability to take and save lives. Does this not equal ritualism on the same level as hindus who feed milk to statues? was not the whole point guru nanak was making to move away from rituals and instead just worship waheguru? Please can anyone clarify this for me?

not really.. you have to research more deeper in to things..

Nihangs do jhatka because if you are spirtual yea..and you do jhatka of a goat...goat shall attained mukhti and born as nihang khalsa and they do it because of the tradition.. i guess...

perhaps i cant give you fair answer on this one.. we got some nihangis by guroo graces here ...they can answer it more proper than me :wink:

[Gitchimaroar Singh]

check out these links for more information ........

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/shastars.html

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/chatka.html

they should clear up most of ur questions.......

[Gupt Singh]

jhatka is completely 100percent against sikhi.

the nihungs who do this also take "sukkha" - a mix of cannabis, opium and other naughtiness

there are a few good nihungs left but most have been heavily affected by hindus - believeing in hindu trinity, etc etc

[Harps]

jhatka is completely 100percent against sikhi.

the nihungs who do this also take "sukkha" - a mix of cannabis, opium and other naughtiness

there are a few good nihungs left but most have been heavily affected by hindus - believeing in hindu trinity, etc etc

prove it lad.

and a big *yawn* @ "heavily affected by hunduism"

do a bit of reading before condeming ppl - Personally ive yet to be convinced either way on the issue of jhatka and the canbis and almond drink.

I personally dont agree witha lot of it but there is considerable evidence to suggest that it maybe "all good"

[Gurinder Kaur]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fatehhhh

All i got too says it......if u don't know anything about Nihangs do jhatka!!!!

Don't says nothing bad about it........I think only some ppl will understand what NIHANGS SINGHS DOOO!!!!!

Check out these links for more information...........

www.shastarvidiya.org

www.sarbloh.info

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fatehhhh

AAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Gupt Singh]

you said:

"prove it lad.

and a big *yawn* @ "heavily affected by hunduism"

do a bit of reading before condeming ppl - Personally ive yet to be convinced either way on the issue of jhatka and the canbis and almond drink.

I personally dont agree witha lot of it but there is considerable evidence to suggest that it maybe "all good""

my answer to you bhai is

nowhere in the dasam granth rehitnamas or anywhere else is the idea of jhatka entertained. the closest you get is "jhatka warriors" which means warriors who kill their opponents with one swipe of hte sword. this is said in triya charitrer i think.

the idea of doing a ritual (penthra) before killing the goat is just as bad as the halal way, doing a ritual. most the meat around in guru jis time was halal since many hindus were veggie, hence halal was banned (as was kutha which is proved to be meat rather than halal)

bhai gurdas himself speaks against the killing of goats, saying "i am a goat, one moment i am eating vegetation, next moment i have been killed, what have i done to deserve this, just imagine what happens to those who eat meat". this is not an exact translation but that is the gist of it. you can look it up if you want.

as for the cannabis one, thats very stupid. bhagat kabeer says that those who consume weed go STRAIGHT TO HELL. weed is spoken against a number of times in guru granth. it is just as bad as tobacco. nihungs claim that the dasam granth is full of "drug references".....LOL! these drug references are things like describing a battle and saying "the wounded were rolling on the floor like matted haired sandhoos drinking bhaang" - is that pro bhang? is guru also pro sandhoo? no and no.

bhai if u need any more evidence that DRUGS and RITUAL SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT ANIMALS are against sikhi, just ask. or why not ask your local gyani? say "baba ji, are drugs against sikhi" hahaha

btw if u want hindoo influences, ask nangs why they believe in the hindoo trinity. i dont understand how anyone can be pro "shastarvidiya.org" since it slanders bhai fauja singh who was a shaheed, and bhai randhir singh who was one of hte most spiritually advanced people we have had since the gurus times.

[Grewal]

Well you are already arguing as to what meat is etc. There are a few contradictions for pro eating meat and some against it. In the Guru Granth sahib especially. But as far as the Dasam Granth is concerned it is not validated to be written by Guru Gobind singh, and so it is not a valid source. The Guru Granth sahib should be the source of wisdom, while i PERSONALLY feel that the dasam granth to be read as an interest. Essentially there is a case for medicinal purpose of nihangs using cannibis during war.

But hey the word Khalsa is not mentioned in the SGGS except once, but not referring to the Khalsa we see present today. Neither are alot of things in Sikhi as of today, but the truth is that traditions including Sikh martial way, are passed on from generation to generation. So do as asking for your humble opinion Could you tell me where the attire of a Sikh is written in the SGGS?

[Gupt Singh]

it is not mentioned in guru granth because guru granth is a manual for salvation for all mankind, not just for khalsa singhs.

dasam granth is validated by many scholars, the best one being bhai randhir singhs work. if you feel you have any substantial argument baba virsa singh will pay for your transport, accomodation and food to his gobind sadan institute so you can debate with him.

there are no contradictions in the guru granth regarding meat. it is easy to twist the meaning of gurbani for ANYTHING. i can prove to you that sikhs are christians, or hindus, or even muslims, with the guru granth, as can i prove that wine is ok and as is living gurus, by taking lines out of context.

if there are any pro meat lines you find, please post them and i will try and explain them to you. guru granth sahib is free from contradiction because all its work was compiled by the gurus themselves and validated before finished.

[Grewal]

Your aswer to the prevoius post was answered on this site on a different link.

[Guest]

The Guru Granth sahib should be the source of wisdom, while i PERSONALLY feel that the dasam granth to be read as an interest.

so u dont do panj baaniyan???.... 3 of the baniyan are from dasam granth :roll: :roll: :roll:

fateh

[Grewal]

When i wrote Sikhi is not a Buffet, where we can choose to mix and match, why is that the Dasam Granth is not taken for its entirety? People removed the Dasam Granth thanks to the SGPC, but then as you said why do we get some prayers from it. What about the rest of the Dasam Granth, why is it not an integral part of "mainstream Skihi" today?

The website shastarvidya.com contains many references to the Dasam Granth including the Hindu Demigods, yet people seem to condemn their work and efforts.

[sukhsingh]

jhatka is completely 100percent against sikhi.

the nihungs who do this also take "sukkha" - a mix of cannabis, opium and other naughtiness

there are a few good nihungs left but most have been heavily affected by hindus - believeing in hindu trinity, etc etc

thank u for showing the true path. u on a akj forum? i think ive read ur work, its gooD ! 8)

[Gupt Singh]

yeh im on akj..........btw its not a pick and mix on dassam granth grewal, bhai randhir singh accepted all of it, the reason guruji didnt add him bani (maybe on reason) was because it was complex and harder to understand, it may have confused alot of singhs, and if u take it literally it wont make sense.

[Undergroundsikhi]

Whaaaaooo..this is fun people searching for the truth,

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

khalsa soulja said:

'nowhere in the dasam granth rehitnamas or anywhere else is the idea of jhatka entertained'

That's not actually true. Prem Sumarg rehitnamah actually says 'include meat in your daily diet...he who eats it will be purified' (verse 2.7)

Desa Singh Rehitnamah states that it should not be part of langar and instead should be killed and eaten away from the langar.

You should try to actually read the rehitname before making statements such as the above.

[Gupt Singh]

both are probably inauthentic then. i wouldnt base my beliefs in something on 2 rehitnamas. alot of rehitnamas even say specific amounts of water to have your bath with. most rehitnamas are the individiuals interpritation of hte khalsa.

why dont please like bhai daya singh, original panj pyare, talk about it?

why isnt it mentioned in varan?

look just read the section on jhatka in www.tapoban.org gurmat section. it will clear any doubts you have. in the message board section there is testimony that people who previously ate it STOPPED after readin that stuff1

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

hmm, that's a rather dangerous thing to say Khalsa Soulja for a person who seems very confident as to what is part of Sikhi and what is not.

You have just implied that most original rehitnamae are just individual interpretation, suggesting that since there are no other rehitnamae to go by, ANY modern rehitnamae (Taksal, SGPC) can only be based upon an original individual interpretations.

You ask about Bhai Daya Singh Rehitnama, in which there is no mention of jhatka, but there is mention of halaal. It states clearly that meat killed in the halaal manner must not be consumed. It also states a code of conduct for an Akali and a Bihangam. There is no mention of meat in the Akali section, but a bihangam is described as not touching meat.

Interestingly this very same rehitnamah acredits the creation of the Khalsa and the 5 Ks as having been given as a gift from the following gods; Mohan brought the 'waheguru' mantra, Varuna gave the amrit, Indra gave the sugar, Yamanraj the sarabloh batta, Kaal brings the 'sarabloh ki karad', Chandi presented the kes and Hanuman gave the soldier's kuchae. Furthermore, the gods also gave the parts of the karah prasad (Vishnu the sugar, Mahadev the flour and Brahma the ghee.

Another interesting feature of this rehitnamah is that is it states that the weapons and equipment used in the ceremony should be worhipped (kari pujae), to be performed at the end of the amrit ceremony.

You also asked about the Varan - what do you mean?

[Gupt Singh]

bhaji my evidence for NO JHATKA is very simple.

there are few reliable accounts of what happened on vaisakhi 1699. hell even the hukamnama to kabul is FAKE.

so what actually happened? what did guru ji say?

should we look at rehitnamas which have been changed and warped? nah.

we have 2 REALLY STRONG SOURCES

1. GURBANI

2. VAHEES OF BHATT

gurbani mentions jhatka in the context of food NO WHERE.

vahees of bhatt, basically poets who chronicled events at hte time, were like the newspaper of the time. all scholars acknowledge this kind of thing as THE MOST RELIABLE source.

at what does it say?

it says two things. firstly it says the kakkar is KESGI not KES. this is backed up by common sense, one or 2 rehitnamas, and implied in a lot of them. akj believe in keski.

also it says HARAAM AND HALAL IS PROHIBITED. Halaal is worse because to pray whilst murdering is v bad. but HARAAM also. Read the account yourself.

Also, the SARBAT KHALSA REHIT MARYADA, as well as TAKSAL, AKJ and some nihung jathas, also say NO MEAT AT ALL.

theres so much anti meat stuff in gurbani its not even funny. plus theres guru hargobinds hukamnama, and guru arjuns, all saying no meat or fish. and kutha means meat, as studying verbs in the guru granth sahib proves!

ill have to look up the bhai daya singh thing but i reckon it was meant to be poetic. i thought it sounded pretty cool.

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

You have really suprise me this time, Khalsa Soulja!

You have now suggested that there are no reliable rehitnamae and look to Gurbani for answers on code of conduct.

You have then stated that there is no actual reliable account of 1699 and what Guru Gobind Singh ji said.

You have resolved this by saying look to Gurbani and the Vaahees of the Bhatts for rehitnama.

This sounds remarkably like a certain scholar who was recently ex-communicated! You have just discredited all accepted codes of conduct and documents of the creation of the Khalsa! I suggest you change your log in name!

Yet you are convinced that kesgi is definately part of the rehit, then where in SGGS does it say that? In fact where in Gurbani does it state any of the 5 Ks? Show me the quote for the amrit ceremony from SGGS. Where in Gurbani does it state what paath to read in the morning? Where in Gurbani does it state what to eat? We both know there is no definate answer on meat in sggs. There are quotes which suggest it shouldn't be eaten, and quotes which suggest there is no issue about eating it.

So where are your rigid beliefs on rehit, kesh and dharis coming from?

[Guest]

fateh

just a lil question to someone who can enlighten me on this matter,

is there a difference between kutha meat, and hallal meat???

i was under the impression that there was a big difference between the 2

hallal meat is the way that muslims prepare the meat and they pray whislt slicing the animals throat

and kutha meat is the way you kill an animal with any means possible, whether it be gunshot, cut its head off with one stroke , thru several strokes or watever, in the end the animal will die and the meat is called "kutha meat"

am i right in this thinking??.... or am i talkin bull :? :? :?

[Gupt Singh]

JT SINGH

not really.

i accept all the dasam granth as real

are u honestly telling me you think all rehitnamas are reliable. if we were, then we must also add the following things to the rehit

women cant take amrit (chaupa singh)

brahmins rule ok! (chaupa singh)

bhai chaupa singh was one of the panj (chaupa singh)

take a bath in cold water only, and use x amount (bhai prahlad singh i think)

im not saying all rahitnamas are useless, if u cross references all of them u can come out with something quite reliable. but if i have a choice in terms of authenticity between a personal interpritation of the khalsa which may have been altered, and basically a newspaper report (that what i wud compare it to), i know which one i would go with!

i never said all rehitnamas are bad. i fully back the rehit maryada on everything apart from jhatka and keski. the jhatka problem is resolved by using hte sarbat khalsa, akj, or taksaali rehit maryada, and the keski one as described previously.

there is a definate answer in sggs on meat its just some people refuse to accept it. if i wanted to i could twist sggs to prove a living guru is required.

kutha is meat. full stop.

we see the verb "kuthey" used in sggs meaning "to kill" or "killing" not "halalifying". kutha is banned therefore all meat is banned.