Guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Does ne1 hav ne links of an online Sarbloh Granth with or without translations to english? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Could dis b da only ting i didn't get an answer from dis website? The Sarbloh Granth is described to accellerate the warrior spirit. And not dat many ppl kno bout the Sarbloh Granth. "Whereas the Adi Guru Durbar and Dasam Guru Durbar could be publicly seen at Sikh Temples, Sarbloh Guru Durbar was always kept within the Akali Nihang Dals as a secret text." - Sanatan Sikhi http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sarbloh_adi.html Dis is y all sikhs r not 1. But different sects. Cos sum ppl rather hav all da glory, rather than 2 share it. :? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Rupz The Sarbloh Granth is not Gurbani. The Nihangs like to maintain that it is a secret text because it's history only goes back 200 years. The Sikhs from the times of Guru Gobind Singh to around 1803 did not have access to this Granth. It is ironic that the Granth which is supposed to be full of 'Bir Ras' and inspire a warrior spirit in the reader was not available to the Sikhs in the 18th century when they needed it most the most. This means that Banda Singh Bahadur, Nawab Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Jassa Singh Ramgarhia and the Budha Dal and Tarna Dal did not have this Granth. In the commentary prepared by Baba Harnam Das Udasi for the Budha Dal Sampuran satik Sri Sarabloh granth sahib ji, he states that the Granth only reached Punjab in 1803 and prior to that it was in the south. Since this is a book which was written for and published by the Budha Dal then one must assume that the Nihangs accept this finding of Baba Harnam Das. Even then it would be fair to assume that the Budha Dal did not accept the Sarbloh Granth as authentic until sometime after that. Most of the European travellers who visited the Punjab before it's annexation in 1849 talk only of two Granths being installed amongst the Nihangs. It is possible that even then the Sarbloh Granth was a 'secret text' and it would not have been installed for these travellers to see. But what better way to introduce a Granth which cannot be traced back to Guru Gobind Singh but to claim it to have been a 'secret text'. But when you introduce the concept of 'secret texts' you then have to invent other mythology in order to sustain the concept of a 'secret text'. You then get 'secret martial art', 'hidden knowledge' etc. So in the end you go from a Sikhism of the Guru Granth Sahib in which Gurbani is available to all who seek it to one of 'secret texts'. Many scholars have tried to analyse the Sarbloh Granth and the most famous has been Pandit Tara Singh Narotam. His findings published in his book 'Gurmat Nirnay Sagar' which were also accepted by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha were that the Sarbloh Granth was not the work of Guru Gobind Singh. His findings were that it was actually written by Bhai Sukha Singh who was a granthi at Patna Sahib. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam studied the Sarbloh Granth based on the language used and it's poetic merit. He found the Sarbloh Granth lacking in both. The Sarbloh Granth deals with the wars between the Gods and the Demons and when Pandit Tara Singh Narotam compared it's poetry with that of the Dasam Granth he concluded that the poetry as well as the language could not be the work of Guru Gobind Singh. His views on the Ogardanti was that the language was too rustic and uncultured to have been written by Guru Gobind Singh. The words 'Tumman' (you ) and 'Humman' ( Me, us ) which are used in Chakkas 1 and 9 are from the language of illiterate peasants of Bihar. Such uncultured language does not exist in the Dasam Granth. Many Sanatan Sikhs accept that all three Granths are Gurbani. The fact that one of the greatest scholars that the Nirmalas ever produced concluded that it was not Gurbani still doesn't make a difference. For them the Guru Granth Sahib which was given Guruship, the Dasam Granth of which even the fiercest critics still concede contains some works of Guru Gobind Singh and a secret text which has a dubious history are all on the same level and all worthy to be called Guru!. On this forum we have two representatives of the 'Sanatan' Sikhs. Lallesvari who claims to be a Nirmala ( but sometimes also claims to be a Bhainji depending on his/her mood ) and Narsingha who claims to be a Nihang. The Nihangs of the Budha Dal have readily accepted the Sarbloh Granth as Gurbani but the Nirmalas who being scholars have their doubts about the Sarbloh Granth. The Nirmalas like all scholars like to base their judgements on their knowledge or the knowledge of others who have studied the matter for longer. What seems to be odd to me is that Lallesvari a self proclamed Nirmala accords the status of Gurbani to the Sarbloh Granth. If you told a true Nirmala that you have a 'secret text' which is Gurbani he will test that text rather than accept it there and then. This is what the Nirmalas of the 19th century such as Tara Singh Narotam did when faced with being told by Nihangs that the Sarbloh Granth was Gurbani. But Lallesvari's acceptence of the Sarbloh Granth seems to be more to do with his personal views such as that the four Sampardyays join forces and uproot mainstream Sikhs. This is a view that he has been sharing with the members of Sikhe.com recently. If anyone wants a good laugh then I suggest you check out Sikhe.com for lallesvari's take on mainstream Sikhism Lastly people like to believe in 'secret texts' and 'secret martial arts' rather than trust their own rationale. That's probably why more people watch Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings than watch the news. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 bikramjit singh thanks for that informative post a while after i heard it was a "secret text" i had my doubts..........guruji brought the guru granth to the masses after bahmans kept a monopoly on their texts (i think one of the gurus likened the vedas to a bit of water hidden away, and gurbani as rain falling on everyone everywhere) so there is no reason why anyone would have a monopoly on anything else..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 The Sarbloh Granth is not Gurbani. ...Mr Bikramjit, it is your loss, not anyone elses. I did not realise you were an authority on Sarbloh Guru Durbar as well...will wonders never cease? You also seem to have a love-hate relationship with Nirmalas.... You may choose to insult Sarbloh Guru Durbar by claiming Guruji's work is not Gurbani. If you do not see the beauty of the GURBANI, why do you assume no one else will? Should you wish to deprive yourself of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji's baani, that is your choice. Please allow for freedom of choice for others to make up their own minds. They may understand the relevance of Sarbloh Guru Durbar even if you dont. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Nirmalas are not bound by beliefs but by scholarship. I respect Pandit Tara Singh Narotam a lot but that doesn't mean that I have to accept everything he says just because he is also a Nirmala.His argumentation is based: 1. on a subjective perception of language hierarchy 2. information available at HIS time Every knowledge is only Vermutungswissen provisory knowledge. Not all Nirmale agree with Pandit Tara SIngh Narotam even though they respect him a lot. Anyone having read Sarabloh Granth knows how difficult it is in terms of language. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam Ji explains this because of the use of "desi" words from Bihar which he judged to be the work on "anpar" people. The fact remains that (and I really don't know what Pandit Ji was thinking at that time :roll: ) "desi" words have always been profusely used in Braj literature even but some people like Pandit Ji viewed this practice as not esthetically pure. If Bikramjit accepts Gurmat Nirnay Sagar as an authoritative text does that mean he accepts avataras, arti-arta and images as well? Gumat Nirnay Sagar has two nice drawings of Mahakal. :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 ...Mr Bikramjit, it is your loss, not anyone elses....Should you wish to deprive yourself of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji's baani, that is your choice. I dont think hes depriving himself, the Nihungs are depriving us all of the Sarbloh Granth with its status as a "secret" text. Who decided it was a secret text? Guru Gobind Singh? It hasnt been fully attributed to him, never mind ascribed to him as a secret text :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Sarbloh Granth is available from any decent bookshop in Panjab :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 ..thats it..blame the Nihangs The fact remains that without the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, Sarbloh Guru Durbar, and Dasam Guru Durbar would have long since disappeared or would have been castrated in various forms by the SGPC and other British Raj nurtured groups. This seems to escape people's notice while they are too busy blaming the Nihang Singhs... :roll: btw, you may wish to thank 96 Crori Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh, present Jathedar of the Panjvah Takht Shromani Panth Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer for allowing Sarbloh Guru Durbar to be openly available to all. Like it or not, without his consent, this would have not been possible :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Narsingha Thanks for you concern for my spiritual welfare. But I don't accept the Sarbloh Granth as Gurbani because I do not believe that Gurbani could have been hidden from the Sikhs for over 100 years. I know that some people only need to be told thats such and such is Gurbani and they accept it readily. Lallesvari I put forward Tara Singh Narotam's views on the Sarbloh Granth and these were accepted by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha. Tara Singh Narotam didn't reject the Sarbloh Granth because he didn't agree with the use of uncultured language in Braj poetry but because he compared the Sarbloh Granth with the Dasam Granth and considered the former to be substandard. He considered some of the language of the Sarbloh Granth as unworthy to be considered the work of Guru Gobind Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 narasingha nah i dont think i will thank mr santa singh, since he tried 2 rebuilt akal takht with filthy money :x what type of nihung are you talking about? real nihungs are the safe ones in india that dont go around taking drugs or sacrificing goats on vaisakhi......neither do they worship chandi or whatever else....and believe me plenty of these types of real true nihungs exist......as bikramjit singh said......the concept of a hidden text is just an easy was to stop people asking questions...... no the sgpc would not have "castrated" the dasam granth or the sarbloh granth. they havent touched the sarbloh granth cuz santa (claus) singh hasnt exactly made birs of it widespread. they have only left out triyah charitrer from the dasam granth and thats because its a touchy subject with alot of people.....id like to see you read out some of the stories in there to a woman in the sangat............ why dont you two "scholarly" people try and refute bikramjit singhs argument instead of just say "OOOOOO BLASPHEMY RAM RAMI!!!!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 id like to see you read out some of the stories in there to a woman in the sangat............ done that mate... and they ask for more :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 So was da Sarbloh Granth also writtern by Guru Gobind Singh Ji den? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 yes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 wots writtern in da Sarbloh Granth? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 wots writtern in da Sarbloh Granth? Sardar RupZ Sahib Ji, please find below some extracts in English, some of which you may already be familiar with (Khalsa Mero Roop hai Khaas etc -which incidently is a Shabd used by all committees, jathas, deras, sants, babas, scholars and neo-scholars (!) and in general all Keshsdhari Sikhs, when referring to the 5 Kakkars): [Gobind Singh said,] ËœI gave myself to the Khalsa; my second form is the True Guru, the Granth. The utterance of the shabad and the singing or explication of Govind's Name is the True Guru's speech. The pure Khalsa Panth was manifested, an auspicious panth [comprising] all four varnas and ashramas. Seeing them is to have darshan of the True Guru, the shabad of the Guru Granth is the Guru's speech. Thus are enumerated the twelve forms of the True Guru, O sants, these are twelve manifest suns. The manifest power of Parbraham plays itself out in the Granth and the Khalsa Panth. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, pp. 496 The Khalsa is my special form; I live in the Khalsa. The Khalsa is my mouth and limbs; I always live with the Khalsa. The Khalsa is my closest friend; the Khalsa is my joy-giving mother and father. The Khalsa is the support of my glory; the Khalsa is my kin and my friend. The Khalsa is my kin-group; the Khalsa will save me. The Khalsa is my body and breath; the Khalsa is the soul of my soul. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, p. 531. Through the grace of the Khalsa, sons, wealth and treasuries, Rule, animals, palaces, sons, wives, deeds, Armies, ministers, retinue, servants, followers, Friends, family, wealth and my dwellings increase Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, p. 532. I hope these are of help... GUR BAR AKAAAAAL! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 wow . I wish dey had an english translation on da whole Sarbloh Granth. Thanks!! WJKK WJKF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 wow . I wish dey had an english translation on da whole Sarbloh Granth. Thanks!! WJKK WJKF sooooon soooon... my chardi-kalah veer (No Name) is working on it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Pandit Tara SIngh Narotam's statement is subjective. Ishar SIngh Nara does believe that it's Maharaj's bani. And then there is the 1698 bir from Hazur Sahib... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 sooooon soooon... my chardi-kalah veer (No Name) is working on it Looking forward 4 it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 whats in hte 1698 bir from hazur sahib? i know theres a 1696 bir of the dasam granth........but how can there be a sarbloh granth from 1698 when the khalsa was created in 1699? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 whats in hte 1698 bir from hazur sahib? i know theres a 1696 bir of the dasam granth........but how can there be a sarbloh granth from 1698 when the khalsa was created in 1699? Didn't you know Lallesvari can conjure up Birs from nowhere !. Especially when he needs one to back up his argument. As far as I know the history of the Sarbloh Granth is clouded in mystery. Sukha Singh claimed to have 'found it ' in a Udasi Dera in Orissa. The Udasi who the Nihangs got to write the comentary of the Sarbloh Granth himself states that it only came to Punjab in around the year 1800. So if it was the work of Guru Gobind Singh then it wasn't available with the Khalsa in Punjab for over 100 years. I don;t know of any other Bani secret or otherwise which has been lost for 100 years only to be discovered in an Udasi dera. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 "As far as I know the history of the Sarbloh Granth is clouded in mystery. " - Bikramjit While admitting this, why then do you doubt that it is Gurbani when you are unsure of the history of Sarbloh Guru Durbar? You even conceed that you do not know enough about the history to even have a valid opinion with regards to Sarbloh Guru Durbar? So, what makes you believe your opinion is valid above that of lalleshvari who has at least read Sarbloh Guru Durbar.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 "As far as I know the history of the Sarbloh Granth is clouded in mystery. " - Bikramjit While admitting this, why then do you doubt that it is Gurbani when you are unsure of the history of Sarbloh Guru Durbar? You even conceed that you do not know enough about the history to even have a valid opinion with regards to Sarbloh Guru Durbar? So, what makes you believe your opinion is valid above that of lalleshvari who has at least read Sarbloh Guru Durbar.... Narsibgha Where have I conceded that I do not know enough to form an opinion ?. You are confusing what I wrote about the Raagmaala issue with the Sarbloh Granth. Perhaps you should read and fully understand a post before replying to a post otherwise you will make a fool of yourself. Since you seem to believe that Sarbloh Granth is Gurbani perhaps you could enlighten us as to how you came to the conclusion that it is Gurbani. You must have studied it as well as it's history. I look forward to your reply or are you going to just use the excuse of setting up another website 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 Maybe a quote by yourself in this matter with regard to yourself is appropriate... "...your sense of history leaves much to be desired" "Since you seem to believe that Sarbloh Granth is Gurbani perhaps you could enlighten us as to how you came to the conclusion that it is Gurbani. " - Bikramjit Perhaps you can research it yourself rather than have people such as myself "enlighten" you. Why would you want to be enlightened by a Sanatan Sikh who u seem to insult at every given opportunity? My dear fellow, Gurbani doesnt have to prove itself to anyone, it is Gurbani regardless of what you believe. You are in no position to question it. It is a matter of faith, introspection, contemplation and bhaana (destiny). Only a fool dismisses knowledge without contemplating it. You have proved yourself a fool, by firstly claiming that Sarbloh Guru Durbar is not Gurbani, and then later stating you lack knowledge about it. DO you expect me to argue with a fool such as yourself? I cannot as you will beat me...I lack your experience. You love making every discussion a personal grudge match (...even the moderators seem to edit most of your posts) and seem to want to drag everyone to low level thinking. Grow up, or at least try to supress the Southall Rude-Boy within you on the net. Dont act the intellectual, it doesnt suit you at all :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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