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  • 3 weeks later...

i dnt c the harm y we cnt listen 2 bhangra! :? wel i fink it'z paht, as i listen 2 bhangra every day but i also listen 2 kirtan wen im doin NAAM-SIMRAN. but.. the fink is ppl say dat bhangra it nt gud blah blah blah lolz :P but its really up 2 u wat u listen 2 if u listen 2 kirtan aswel.. so dere no harm in listenin 2 bhangra is dere now ? :?

u can reply 2 dis if u wanna

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lol how isit not wrong...

before i really gt in2 sikhi, which was only recently...i listen to all da bhangra....so i knw ma stuff

lol lets take chamkila as an example...

wat does he sing bout?? his songs are so dirty that i cud neva eva play dat in my house loud!! one of his songs describes the sounds that ppl make when having sex....

ok thats the extreme view..

but its a knopwn fact that music affects the mind...ull only act according to the influences that you have....

i tink dere was a good article by N30 singh....

guru ji told us not to listen to kucchi bani cz it affects our mind...

basically all dese kuldip manak, chamkila...surinder shinda...they're not gonna help you in sikhi...and guru ji tells us against it....

so many of you have said that u can do this or do that if your thinkin of god...

lol can ne of u say that u went 2 a gif actually thought of god...i realllllly doubt u did...cz i cudnt really see netin apart from showing off...which will only increase ur houmai...

wud u listen 2 that music with guru ji sittin there, or dance round like a lungrah wid guru ji sittin there...

i dont think so..

1 of the best ways to stop urself doin wrong things is to think...wud guru ji do this??? or wud guru ji b happy seein me doin this...

ur much less likely to summin wrong if u think that......

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Gurfateh

a very well put reply.

all these reasons make it obvious that Guru Ji would rather we did Gatka if we wanted to 'jump around'. Guru Ji's message isn't puritannical...its practical.

ps personally, i think that bhangra and bhangra videos are literally a 'waste of time' for the above reasons.

Gurfateh

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Vahegurooooooooooooooo

I personally think its nothing wrong in listening tooo bhangra!!!! but WHY LISTEN TOO BHANGRA WHEN U CAN LISTEN TOOO GURU JI KIRTAN!!!! AND U WILL LEARN SOMETHING FROM IT TOOO!!!

Vaheguroooooooooooooooooooo

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these are a few i could find:

p142

Intoxicated with power and thrilled with wealth, they

delight in their pleasures, and dance about shamelessly. O Nanak, they are deluded and defrauded. Without the Lord's Name,

they lose their honor and depart.

p1165

He is like the prostitute, who comes to dance, wearing

beautiful clothes, decorated and adorned. She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her. But the noose

of the Messenger of Death is around her neck.

that one is very appropriate for all the cut haired girls out there

p1285

Some dance and dance and keep the beat, but they do not worship Him with devotion. Some refuse to eat;

what can be done with these fools?

a VERY GOOD one

p182

It torments us through the intoxication of wine and the beauty of youth. || 2 || It torments landlords,

paupers and lovers of pleasure. It torments us through the sweet sounds of music and parties. It torments us through beautiful

beds, palaces and decorations. It torments us through the darkness of the five evil passions. || 3 || It torments those who

act, entangled in ego. It torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation. It torments us through

character, lifestyle and social status. It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the

Lord.

p738

He listens to the sounds of sin and the music of corruption, and he is

pleased. His mind is too lazy to listen to the Praises of the Lord.

dont listen to bhangra - listen to KEERTAN.

p1342

In music and song, the

mind is caught by the love of duality. Filled with deception deep within, one suffers in terrible pain.

these are only a few. there was a fat collection of hte good ones which blatantly proved bhangra was against sikhi on sikhpride.com but hte sites down.

ill admit i used to listen to bare rap n hiphop, but now i stopped and instead of rap lyrics ringing in my head its just kirtan. and trust me theres a bigger difference then u think in not listening or listening to music - why not see for urself.

its punjabi culture that is dragging sikhi down. stuff like sexism, casteism, bhangra, meat, drink - all the punjabi stuff - that is messin up sikhi. if it wasnt for those things its quite likely sikhi would be one of hte bigger religions in the world.

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THERE IS NOOOOO BHANGRA TUNE EVER TAHT WILL MAKE U FEEL THE GLORY INSIDE U LIKE WHEN U EXPEREINCE A SHABAD AND KIRTAN...

NAME ONE BHANGRA TUNE WHICH MAKES U FEEL ENLIGHTENED

NAME ONE BHANGRA TUNE WHICH U CAN LISTEN TO EVERY SINGLE DAY AND NEVER GET BORED

NAME ONE BHANGRA TUNE WHICH THE MORE U LISTEN THE MORE U FEEL IN EXTACY

THERE IS NOTHING EVER THAT WILL COME NEAR KIRTAN

KIRTAN CD = £3 - LISTEN TO IT EVERY SINGLE DAY - EVERY TRACK IS AWESOME AND IT HAS A MEANING

BHANGRA CD = £10 - ONE GOOD SONG - CRAP LYRICS.... STOLEN BEATS FROM DR DRE - LISTEN TO IT FOR A DAY OR 2 AND NEVER TOUCH IT

NEED I SAY MORE :wink:

FATEH

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well xactly...

like many tings...we have a choice in front of us

you can either do wat guru ji has said....look at Khalsa_souljas quotes for proof of that especially this 1

im gonna put it in bold italics underlined...a different colour....everything!!

this is for all of you that say nothing wrong with dancing or bhangra....

He is like the prostitute, who comes to dance, wearing

beautiful clothes, decorated and adorned. She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her. But the noose

of the Messenger of Death is around her neck.

khalsa soulja....respeck...u smashed it wid da quotes....

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oh come on!! this is silly... u guys are taking maharaj's bani completely out of context!!!!!!! i consider that complete biadbee, because your trying to twist gurbani to fit what u want it to say... i could prove almost anything by quoting gurbani out of context... even murder!!... take the following:

"Sitting down, standing up, sleeping and waking, forever and ever, meditate on the Lord.

He may have the most wondrous and beautiful arenas, and be victorious on the field of battle.

He may proclaim, "I can kill anyone, I can capture anyone, and I can release anyone.""

seems like it's ok to murder eh?? check out the full shabad to see what it's really talking about:

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/PageASP.asp?ShabadID=1473

if we take your quote about the dancing prostitute... read the full shabad:

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/PageASP.asp?ShabadID=4153

there u'll see that it's saying that a sinner is like a prostitute who lives to sexually arouse others, but forgets about akaal purkh & that death awaits... the shabad has NOTHING to do with dancing!!

i suspect exactly the same can be said about all the other quotes khalsa-soolj put up... i would check, but frankly i cant be bothered. all u've done is searched up all quotes on dancing & without actually seeing what guru ji is saying making assumptions on what it means & posting it up to back up your views.... note, YOUR views not necessarily the guru's views! that is really disgusting, if u wish to quote maharaj's bani... thur ki bani aiee!!... then please at least have the decency to check the actual message that guru ji is giving us rather than twisting it to what U WANT IT TO SAY!

that's all i'll say on the matter

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thanx guv for clearing that up

from now on to avoid confusion and misinterpretation - if anyone wishes to quote gurbani - please supply the whole pannaa - not just one sentence :D

fateh

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guv none of those quotes were twisted.

the prostitute one is still just as appropriate

the one u gave sounded messed up...because u forgot to add the rahaoo (pause) and the II 1 II thingy after the first sentence. i havent done that on mine.

if you think the quotes are wrong read the whole shabad. it still stands.

moreso, try doing what i did. it took me months to ween myself off gangstah rap hiphop and ragga. i had to bin all my cds and music and replace it all with kirtan and listen every day. now i dont have an iota of interest in anything other than gurbani.

if people are so sure that they are right, go without music for 3 months and replace it with kirtan.....and see how u feel at the end.....K?

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oh and guv........before you claim im "disgusting" and evil lol.......could u explain to me why they dont do bhangra in the gurdwara...once they did and there was biiiiiiig trouble.........anything forbidden in gurdwara is forbidden elsewhere.

its very easy to twist gurbani for whatever. there is the ying and yang extreme. the yang is to take every line literally and you end up with a rather constrained life. the ying is to take everything metaphorically and u can end up doing whatever. take a middle ground.

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khalsa soulja, from your first post it's obvious u either havent read my response or u're just trying to play dumb!

as regards your second post, using what is & isnt acceptable in a gurdwara is a poor way of justifying whether something is against sikhi! & i have seen bhangra being done in a gurdwara in holland... in fact, the granthi was the one playing the dhol!! & i've also seen bacon & eggs being served in a gurdwara in the uk... so do u now accept that it's ok to eat bacon & eggs?

i get your point about the ying & yang thing... but then do u have the knowledge of where the middle ground is? do u know the context in which each of the shabads was written? do u know about the mood of each raag & how it affects the meaning of the shabad? do u know the roots of each word in sanskrit? have u even studied sanskrit or any of the other languages in guru granth sahib ji? it's easy to read the english translation & think that's it... but there's so much more, & as u claim u know exactly what each of the quotes u posted means, i would like to know what education into gurbani & the languages contained therein u have received & from where.

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:?

Gurfateh

thats a bit unfair hey...asking for someone's credentials because they look at something differently from you. in fact, its this approach that kept Brahmins in power for centuries over the 'dumb beast' that were the people; "we can read Sanskrit and you can't so there!".

i agree with your other point though; there is a place in india which calls itself a 'Gurdwara' and people come along and offer sharab/alcohol at the golak...so, sadly there are many anti-Gurmat pratices happening in this Kalyug we live under; many so-called 'Gurdwarae' are perfect examples.

we can only talk from experience i guess...

when i used to go to punjabi after-wedding parties in halls etc. (you know - when the groom has shaved his stubble and taken his dastaar off) i was exposed to Bhangra and also jumped up and down feeling a temporary high (further promoted with the intake of shots and spliffs). all i ever saw was alcohol, booze, girls/boys, men/women eyeing each other up and lust was rampant everywhere...i used to be part of that; i was a dumb beast and enjoyed the whole thing.

no matter what anyone says, dancing has erotic connotations and has traditionally been something that mostly women have been expected to do while 'men' look on (think of Darbar Sahib when ahmed shah abdali decided to setup a 'dancing venue'...that was before Vaahiguru ordained a decapitation for him :D )

i'm not saying don't dance...but i am most definitely never going to say 'go out and dance...its harmless'.

Guru doesn't blatantly 'get all thaliban' and say 'thou shalt incur hell by dancing - full stop'. but what Guru does do is enjoin us to practice the positive and resist the negative with nothing but pure piyaar; because he wants us to meet our True Husband.

ask yourself this; someone who loves Guru, does paath, simran etc. and is dying to meet Vaahiguru - will they feel the need to jump up and down with an audience watching; is this their idea of enjoyment?

remember all insipid tastes evaporate when we are given a taste of Naam...the Inner Dance of Naam Simran, where the Soul Bride offers the Movements of Love to her True Husband, is the greatest dance of all...

lets all dance the dance of Eternal Love...and keep Sikhi alive for future generations.

Gurfateh

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guv

quote the entire shabad of what you have a problem with.

if you think music makes no difference to spirituality then stop listening for 3 months and replace with kirtan. instead of arguing o nthe internet try it hands on with your own mind and body.

i ask people to give examples of great gursikhs in the past who danced/listened to music.

like i said before....i really cant imagine guru gobind singh c-walking to a xzibit or 2pac song.......can u? what about jumping about shouting chakdee fateeeeh to bhangra? nah.

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ok no need 2 get personal...

guv..he has his viewpoint you have yours....as everyone has their own...

at the end of the day...

he doin more good than he is harm...

all he tryin 2 get across is that there no use in dancing, that all it will do is hinder your sikhi...not grow...

teh only thing that could possibly happen by listenin to him is that you would benefit from not listening to kucchi bani or being exposed 2 the maarah sangat that you find at those places...

try 2 not 2 c things in the negative...

hes trying 2 help...i dnt think he has any bad motives...

at the end of da day...i dont think ne1 can say that dancing will help their sikhi...

and i think ppl have ajustification that it WILL hinder your sikhi...for example the atmosphere youre exposed to, the people etc.

the mind isnt as strong as we like to think...

dont get 2 gussah yeh...

bhull chukk khimaa

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why does everyone always think of dance as having to go hand in hand with some seedy smoky club??

one time, a few of us singhs got together & started singing chaupee & jaap sahib. one of the singhs (really simple & spiritual guy) got full of energy & got up & started dancing... he was in pure ecstasy! he was dancing to show his pyaar to akaal purkh... & i think it was a most beautiful expression of his love! :D

jagroop & jassa, as i stated in my first post... the issue i have is not with someones views, but with people trying to use gurbani completely out of context just to support their views! & it's a huge shame that today we place so little emphasis or respect on gian, instead most of what we 'know' is from hear'say & folk tales. i had this exact same debate (dancing & the misquoting of gurbani) on another forum... rather than me reposting everything from there, u can see the whole thread at:

http://www.sikhi.org.uk/msgboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=521

hopefully that'll give u a better idea of what i'm talking about.

guv

quote the entire shabad of what you have a problem with.

khalsa soulja, if u had read my first post :roll: :roll: ... it's all there... just follow the link...

if we take your quote about the dancing prostitute... read the full shabad:

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/PageASP.asp?ShabadID=4153

there u'll see that it's saying that a sinner is like a prostitute who lives to sexually arouse others, but forgets about akaal purkh & that death awaits... the shabad has NOTHING to do with dancing!!

if you think music makes no difference to spirituality then stop listening for 3 months and replace with kirtan. instead of arguing o nthe internet try it hands on with your own mind and body.

when have i ever said music makes no difference to spirituality?? :twisted: :twisted: the only point i made, & i'm making again is that u shouldnt quote maharajs bani out of context just so that it supports YOUR views! (oh, & basing your sikhi solely on what people do in gurdware isnt a good idea! 8) )

i ask people to give examples of great gursikhs in the past who danced/listened to music.

i'd like u to prove that they didnt... without just personal opinion! :D

like i said before....i really cant imagine guru gobind singh c-walking to a xzibit or 2pac song.......can u? what about jumping about shouting chakdee fateeeeh to bhangra? nah.

just because u cant imagine it, doesnt mean it didnt happen! :wink: i can just see it now, guru gobind singh ji in some don shades 8) moonwalking!! :LOL::LOL: (btw, <- for those of u that dont get the laughing faces, that was a joke!)

if u want to quote gurbani for whatever reason, have the courtesy & respect for the bani to at least check it's sanskrit roots or ask someone who is very knowledgeable in the area to get an understanding of the true meaning of the shabad. check out http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com for prof sahib singhs steekh on sri guru granth sahib ji where he goes into the sanskrit roots of each word. if u have any love for your guru & respect for guru's bani, then my humble benti is... please dont use & abuse!! :evil:

gurfateh!

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calm yourself. u havent touched any of hte other quotes. please examine the others and they have not been taken out of context. one of htem was:

p182

It torments us through the intoxication of wine and the beauty of youth. || 2 || It torments landlords,

paupers and lovers of pleasure. It torments us through the sweet sounds of music and parties. It torments us through beautiful

beds, palaces and decorations. It torments us through the darkness of the five evil passions. || 3 || It torments those who

act, entangled in ego. It torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation. It torments us through

character, lifestyle and social status. It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the

Lord.

there is no way that this could be referring to anything else. maya is being referred to. maya takes the form of WINE, BEAUTY, (and can affect anyone), MUSIC, PARTIES, RICHES, LUXURY, etc. these things are all in the same catagory. there is no other interpritation of the shabad. music and parties has been grouped with other sinful things.

there was a really good set of quotes on the sikhpride.com forum a while ago - look them up.

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from the translation u've written, maya also "torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation." so whether u live a gristi jeevan or live in the mountains it will torment u.

music and parties has been grouped with other sinful things.

if u try & use that quote u posted to say music & parties are sinful, then u have to also accept that both gristi jeevan & renunciation are sins too... so what are we supposed to do??

i havent checked up on the shabad... i just made my comments from what u posted.

try thinking a little bit about what the shabad is saying... what is the message that guru ji wants u to learn. from what u've posted, "It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the Lord." it's not making a comment on specific things... maya torments u no matter what u do, unless u have love for guru.

let me know what u think.

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there is nothing wrong with listening to bhangra music and dancing - its like saying there is something wrong with watching tv....

i dance at weddings - and im gonna dance like mental on my brothers wedding - i dont see nothing wrong with dancing - ur just expressing ur joy - when it comes to dancing with kuriya to go on the pull then thats a different story

well thats my opinion

fateh

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  • 3 weeks later...

If yur happy dancing then dance!!!!!! Aslong as u aint gone do anything MASHED UP then go ahead dance!!!! At da end of the day -u know ur limits... and anyway... at weddings your family is there - u shud c evri1 as ur bro or sis - parents or "auntizz and Unklez" or your lil "neices n nephews"...!

Dancing is kool u get me... EXERCISE TOO (dat was a joke)!!!

PPl relaxxx... u know wots gud 4 YOU and what isnt gud 4 YOU!!!

If dancing + bhangra at weddings n stuff associates u with bad stuff like.. say.. opposite sex - den obviously maybe u need to work on it a little and overcome dat!

If dancing is all gud then i say gwannn.. as long as u dont do netin mashed init!!!!!

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Gurfateh

Talking from a purely spiritual perspective here, but Sufis have used dance a means to reach ecstatic states in which they are oblivious to the world and engrossed in God. Rumi and the Mevlavi tradition has practiced Zikhr with a form of dance for centuries (look up the 'whirling dervishes') and of all Sufis, Rumi is one of the greatest.

Khalsa Soulja will probably know this too, that a lot of the AKJ get off on the fast simran bits - someone once tried to sell me a tape at a raensabhai as either being 'fast or superfast'! Is it the 'waheguru' that engrosses you in it, or is it the universal effect of speeding up a rhythm until very fast and louder that is getting you into it - I'd say it is the effect of the rhythm that is pulling people into that. I leave you to make up your own minds! If anything AKJ kirtan has strongest links to Qawalli, with it's increasing speed and group singing.

I also have recordings of a pair of brothers from Lahore who play dhols in a sufi dargah as part of the zikhr (simran) ceremony. Again this leads to these ecstatic dances in the pirs.

As for non-kirtan being sinful maya - nothing could be further from the truth! What is kirtan and what is not kirtan just depends on your mindset. I have a friend who hears the praises of God in Bob Marley - all he is talking about is God. Listen to free jazz by john coltrane, albert ayler, pharoah sanders and they tell you they are inspired by God. Listen to Indian Raag - people like Ustad Amir Khan were as good as mystics living a hermits life for his meditative music in which he found the beauty of God.

Music is a tool, a means to an end. It can produce in you any aspect of yourself, lust, anger, love, humility, sadness, happiness, spiritual yearning. Therefore, if you listen to inspired music in whatever form it will have that effect on you.

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