Maya Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 What rubbish. I live in Birmingham and have done for over 30 years and its not the "kaalay" you have to worry about. Its aapne that act stupid and egg each other on in gangs or do nothing when a girls being targetted for abuse. I've been on the recieiving end of abuse in recent years since 9/11 and its gangs of white or asian youths that are the ones to worry about. I would cross the road to avoid them rather than a gang of "Kaalay". You're viewpoint (and thats all it is, as you've offered no facts that can be verified) is racist, extrememly bigoted and more worryingly scare-mongering tactics that you should think twice about in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 kalay that i know are safe and they're inda same boat as us ( U know what i mean ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Correct me if I am wrong but it appears from this thread that Shasterkovich has some real personal issues with black people in general. I am surprised at the amount of racism that has been exhibited here (...makes a change from the usual sanatan sikh-bashing I guess). Shasterkovich, you might wanna re-think that "hatred thing" u got going....hate only destroys your own soul at the end of the day, no one else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyDudesWassup Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I am also quite surprised that this Shasterkovich has not even received any warnings (also from other threads), mods are you awake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I'm just expressing myself freely. If I'm "warned" against expressing these things, do you think I will just forget about it? Out of sight, out of mind? And do you think I'm the only one who has these opinions? It's right to discuss these things openly and freely. If you don't want to read or participate, that's up to you. However, I suggest you might be being a bit patronising by stopping others from reading these opinions and discussing them. Maya, if you want to say you find my views "worrying", you are free to say it. But don't expect everyone else to worry with you. I'm certainly not worried. The "hatred" I apparently have is not important. What's important is the issue here - is there a genuine problem with kaalay causing trouble or can you honestly tell me it's just scaremongering. Even if it is, can you tell me it's morally right for black guys to go out with Punjabi girls? Can you tell me that in conscience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyDudesWassup Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Shasterkovich, Only problem I have with a few of your posts are that they are not good for the young kids that come on his website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 OK, dude. I'll tone it down in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Maya, if you want to say you find my views "worrying", you are free to say it. But don't expect everyone else to worry with you. I'm certainly not worried. I guess you wouldn't be seeing as you appear to live in a fantasy world of your own making. What happened? Did a kaala scare you once or something?? Get over it man! The "hatred" I apparently have is not important. What's important is the issue here - is there a genuine problem with kaalay causing trouble or can you honestly tell me it's just scaremongering. Even if it is, can you tell me it's morally right for black guys to go out with Punjabi girls? Can you tell me that in conscience? Who are you to define morals and whats right or wrong?? I can honestly tell you, yes, that you are scare-mongering. There is no "genuine problem" with blacks causing trouble. Where are your facts? Your statistics? Hearsay and a personal gripe mean nothing. It seems to me that you're more concerned that punjabi girls want to go out with black guy...and not you possibly? Whatever. You do not have the moral right to change that and the fact that you're blinkered with "hatred" makes your views invalid and unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Seriously kalay mates are safe an, they understand my culture and religion an all dat............there proper funny just becoz a persons black deosn't mean there bad so what are u a goora? thats makes ju innocent deos it? there enuff apnay that are bad people out there, setting a wrong example of who they actually are and Shasterkovich and Maya please let not take this matter seriously, control your feeling towards each other respec' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I feel a bit sandwiched between the different views exposed here. On the one hand I think it would foolish not to take into account the fears of some people on the other hand I am aware that fear is mostly irrational. I have lived with and worked with people from all backgrounds and hence I have a first hand experience with sub-saharan African people. I studied much of sub-saharan francophone literature for two years and interacted with people from Zaire, Rwanda and Senegal. In true honesty I cannot remember a single moment where I ever experienced anything negative with them. On the opposite the warmth, deep sense of dignity and compassion that some of my friends have shown will always remain in my heart. One of my best teachers at university was loved by all of us because of his fantastic sense of humour, humanity and charisma. The genius who shakes your hand in the corridor and asks if your family is fine. This is my experience with traditional sub-saharan Africans. Now this is what they themselves say about Afro Americans and Carribeans: Accroding to them these Afro Americans and Carribeans because of the whole slavery past are subservient and hence prone to rebelious behaviour. I clearly recall my Senegalese friends' hatred for rap and specially gangsta rap and their deep sense of surprise when I told them that a lot of Panjabi youth not only listened to that kind of music but to a certain extent even tried to copy Afro Americans. "Why would people who have thousands of years of history try to do that" Again these are not my statements put my Senegalese and Rwandan friends' and I have about 5-6 of them. Many of my friends have been able to keep their culture and yet live in a Western society without experiencing the so called "huge gap" between cultures." We all cook with water after all". On the other hand my friends would never hang out with Jamaicans unless they were practising Rastafarians or decent people. But fact is that gangsta rap culture has a tremendous influence on non-AFrican "black" communities and others. On the other hand many Somalians still practice excision in the UK. Excision or female circumsision is a practice by which the clitoris is cut. It is mostly older women who thus mutilate young girls like this leaving them scarred for life, unable to enjoy their sexuality. This barbaric habit is still being practiced even in the UK by Somalians and other communities. on excision see: http://www.arte-tv.com/science/excision/ftext/00.htm http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/female.html http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm Though the Quranic does not talk about it certain groups in Africa still practice this in order to control female sexuality. It literally makes me laugh when people talk of Britain as the country where integration has succeded! :evil: Ask all these girls if they think they will ever enjoy marriage, ask their future husbands if their wives have rights! Due to the import of gansta culture a lot of Somali kids have started behaving like a particuliar Carribeans. Thei trdaitional macho attitude peculiar to their own somali culture is in tune with the gangsta rap attitude towards women or "bitches" :evil: It's no secret that these guys who go around in cars blasting their music view Panjabi girls as Kamasutra Asian Babes from some 50-cent video!!! That is racism as well. question is: why do Panjabi girls sometimes fall for those guys? Because our bande try to be like them. SO why go out with a copy of Snoop Doggy Dog or Chingy when you can go out with the real Chingy!!!! I never use the the word "kala". I think it's simply racist to use this reductionist term to qualify thousands of different cultures. I love my African friends who call me "cousin" in French as is the habit among themselves but I share their sense of disgust when it comes to gangsta culture even more so when it is Panjabis who do it!!! Interracial relations are bound to happen but I'd rather accept a believing Nanakpanthi Jamaican with Udasi dreadlocks in my family rather than Dr Dre. After all Rastafarians took a lot from Indian religions, where do you think the dreadlocks came from in the first place? Don't hate but don't be naive either. There is good and evil everywhere. Don't use the word "kala" in the future: be specific and don't put the majority of decent black people in the same basket as Jamaican and Somalis who have adopted gangsta kanjar values! pyar de nal lalleshvari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Don't use the word "kala" in the future: be specific and don't put the majority of decent black people in the same basket as Jamaican and Somalis who have adopted gangsta kanjar values! are all Jamaican, and Somalis the same? don't label peopel urself bhaji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I haven't labeled anyone. I clearly talk about "many Somalis" not "all Somalis" and "certain Jamaicans" not "all Jamaicans". I am talking about very precise elements in those two communities. I am aware that a superficial reading of my post would produce the impression that MrSingh who jumped on the opportunity (oh how surprising :roll: ) to give me lessons in nimrta and labelling people. yours sincerely Nirnagullah-Lalleshvari "the sob" :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihal_Kaur Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 "Excision or female circumsision is a practice by which the clitoris is cut." :evil: :evil: What in their eyes justifies them doing this? They must believe it does something. Basically in schools today the "hardest" (thus popular) guys are the ones with the rap/gang culture adopted, and from this stems the fact that the "popular" girls always go out with the "popular" guys. All the rest stems from here, to be popular you must listen to certain "in" music. Also wear certain clothes/labels, and act a certain way. :shock: :shock: This behaviour almost everyone displays, from Sikh men tying certain styles of turbans to look cool, to wearing certain types of shasters/bana for the same reason. Or 'belonging' to one group or another. All these people crave a feeling of belonging, which I think is reasonable, but I'm not sure what should be done about it. Whatever it is, the education must start in primary school. :idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I agree with you Nihal Kaur but you also have to take into consideration the different types of masculinity. According to French gender studies specialist Elisabeth Badinter in her famous book, XY: on Masculinity (a must by the way) there are two different types of masculinity: 1. The mutilated man. There are two types of mutilated men: a. the hard man and b. the soft man. a. the hard man is the one whose masculinity is based on a repression of the feminine inside man. Hard men or hypermasculine men detroy every single aspect of their inner feminity to become "real men". The best example of such a type is the Rambo, Terminator type of masculinity. But there is also a lot of that masculinity in recent developments in several cultures. The gangsta rap ideal is one of them and so is the traditional patriarchal man in Middle Eastern or South Asian socities. 2. The soft man. is the opposit. Effeminate and spineless he tries to repress his strength by becoming his mother's boy. The hard and the soft man very often live together in one person. You'll find, as is so typical in macho cultures the ususal control of women's sexuality: women are either mothers or whores and men are supposed to be hard and violent and protect "their honour". Mutilated men are always insecure as they always have to prove that they're men. 2. The reconciliated man is the one who is able to conciliate masculine and feminine qualities in one. He is strong and tender, brave and compassionate and sees women as friends and equals and takes full part in the nurturing process. This reconciliated man is secure: he does not need to prove that he is a "real man". This is the ideal shown by our Gurus but unfortunately forgotten The mutilated neo-SIkh males have repressed the Feminine in the Dasam Guru Granth and our community has one of the worst gender imbalances in the world. To come back to the sense of belonging: being a Khalsa means to be satantri-independent. Most people like to be sheep and like to follow strict maryadas that tell them what to do from A to Z. The puratan maryada is about thinking independently applying the principles of abek and bibek. This is the path of Guru Gobind SIngh's Khalsa, a path of mystical chivalry made for virya (heroes) not sheep (pashu). An elite accessible to all those who wish to learn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted December 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 the fact that you're blinkered with "hatred" makes your views invalid and unbalanced. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Don't use the word "kala" in the future: be specific and don't put the majority of decent black people in the same basket as Jamaican and Somalis who have adopted gangsta kanjar values! can't see the word certain :roll: look, U said its not good to put "black people in the same basket as jamaicans and somalis" and nto CERTAIN :roll: instead u could've written, to not put all "blacs"in the same basket as CERTAIN blacks :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 instead u could've written, to not put all "blacs"in the same basket as CERTAIN blacks stop being picky. leh, you know what he means. leave it as that. :| :| :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I felt a bit confused that first he said something, then in the next he wrote the opposite please forgive my ignorance Sangto :oops2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted December 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Lalleshvari, Thank you for your very thoughtful and insightful comments. I agree with you entirely regarding Somalis and West Indian black youths. However, I do not entirely agree with you about the feminine and masculine sides in men. This is because I attribute many qualities which others consider "masculine" (such as violence and war) with femininity, and vice versa. In my view, the way of nature is that man tends to want to co-operate and form societies and have abstract ideas, whereas woman incites and conducts violence (often in a passive-aggressive way) to select and reject sexual partners, and thereby gain dominion or control over the society created by man. Regarding blacks: if I'm called a hateful racist for raising these concerns, so be it. I can't see anyone criticising black machismo or "culture" (music celebrating gratuitous violence, drugs and misogyny) around here, or blaming it for the behaviour of the troublemakers among young black men. It seems the biggest mistake I've made here is to try to look out for my own people, as they walk blindfolded into an abyss. Very many black people would agree with me about the problems caused by that section of their community who don't care 2 hoots for law, other cultures, respect and proper conduct. However, I did'nt start this thread to pat the good guys among the black community on the back (maybe I'll start another one for that purpose), but to highlight a specific problem that I and many others have perceived. I do not accept in the slightest that it's racist to have a genuine and deep-seated moral conviction that the races should stick to their own, in matters of sex and marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihal_Kaur Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 "whereas woman incites and conducts violence (often in a passive-aggressive way) to select and reject sexual partners, and thereby gain dominion or control over the society created by man. " Sheesh. :shock: :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Shastarkovich, whereas woman incites and conducts violence (often in a passive-aggressive way) to select and reject sexual partners, and thereby gain dominion or control over the society created by man. What makes you believe in such rubbish?You've been reading rubbish haven't you? It seems the biggest mistake I've made here is to try to look out for my own people, as they walk blindfolded into an abyss. Please tell me, who are your own people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 shasterkovitch wrote: I do not accept in the slightest that it's racist to have a genuine and deep-seated moral conviction that the races should stick to their own, in matters of sex and marriage. Here I must disagree with you: 1. inbreeding is the worst thing an ethnic group can do. 2. There is no such thing as race :wink: The reason why Jats for example are so group as a biological group is precisely because they mixed with other groups. Before the sanskritisation process of the new clonial middle classes Jats used to go to Bengal, Bihar even Maharashtra to get married to women from there. The gazetters of Panjab during the British Raj complained about the high amount of European women who would run away and get married to Singhs!!!! The whole idea of racial purety is the very foundation of Nazism. btw I am not calling you a racist but I just think that on this particular point you need to review your position even though I understand your concerns though I would relativise them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted December 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 What makes you believe in such rubbish?You've been reading rubbish haven't you? I can't help it. You keep posting responses in all the threads I'm following in this forum. Please tell me, who are your own people? I try to look out for UK-born Punjabis mostly (being one myself). Were you born in the Year of the Cow? Must you horn into everything I write? If you want to ask me any more personal questions, please use PM, otherwise you're abusing the forum, which is meant for discussing issues, not personalities. Moderators, I would like to ask you to warn Hari. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted December 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Only kidding!!! Hari is safe! And I like his posts on Gurbani and Naam very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Were you born in the Year of the Cow? Must you horn into everything I write? No I was born in year of tiger.I rip and tear with claws and feast on flesh of debates.Grroowwll. :twisted: Moderators, I would like to ask you to warn Hari. Thank you. :?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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