Afraid of the Truth questions...let's give them a shot?

[Niranjana]

Before presenting this information, I would like to make clear that the questions that follow, whilst I personally feel worth while to answer, are not raised by me and I am not part of the www.sarbloh.com authors/circuit. Whilst the forum may have its reservations about some of the authors, I ask that the forum please consider these questions seriously and provide an answer, as we are not discussing these individuals or the website.

I am solely looking for “vivek†as we all ask in our daily Ardasa, these questions, I feel are worth answering. There are more questions on the site, I have for ease of discussion limited these to 4 topics with the questions I feel imperative to be answered given their daily impact in our lives as Sikhs, i.e. Nitnem, Rehit, Gurdwara, Kirtan and our Leadership (and hope that the authors of the website don’t mind this adjustment for presentation on this forum, I have omitted the others for later discussion, as whilst valid, these probably do not presently relate to the daily lives of most Sikhs, i.e. Sukha and Jhatka).

I have left the question numbers unaltered for easy reference back to the site. For the record, I am not asking these questions as a supporter of the website nor as a means to discredit it. My interest lies solely in understanding the answers to these valid questions, which as I have indicated do impact our daily lives as Sikhs of whatever description or inclination.

I simply request that we do not begin discussing the site (this has been done elsewhere), I make reference to the site only as it is the source of these questions and as such request that moderators please keep close tabs on this thread to ensure that only the questions below are answered and no personal campaigns against individuals, jathas, organisations or sampraydas begin.

Finally, please when responding, could you kindly reference the question number to which your answer relates.

I sincerely hope we can have a decent discussion here and look to learn from the questions about our past heritage and practice, take what is worthwhile, discard the rest and move on with greater knowledge...looking forward to learning from you all...

Vahe-Guroo-Raakhaa...

KHALSA REHIT:

1. Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' (three adornments - kard, kachera and kesh) instead of the '5 Ks'*

(* The 5 K - kesh (unshorn hair), kara (steel/iron war bracelet), kirpan/kard (dagger), kanga (wooden comb) and kachera (breeches))?

2. Why do ancient Sikh historical texts speak of discrepancies regards manner of giving, ‘Amrit Sanchar’ (Khalsa initiation)?

3. Why do ancient Sikh historical texts give varied versions of Khalsa/Sikh litergy? (Nitnem Banis)

GURU GRANTH

9. If the, ‘Kirtar Puri Bir’, is the original Guru Durbar of the ineffable Akali Guru Arjan Dev, then why are there so many mistakes in it?

10. Why did S.G.P.C. remove Dasam Guru Durbar from Akal Takht in 1941 where it resided since the times of Bhai Mani Singh Shaheed?

13. If the, ‘Treh Chrittar’, found in Dasam Guru Durbar are not Sikh scripture (according to modern mainstream Sikh ideology), then why do modern institutions such as the A.K.J., S.G.P.C., Sant Samaj, etc., who hold this belief read, ‘Kabio Bach Benti Chaupai’, in their daily liturgy and also use this text when initiating new Khalsa? This text is the concluding part of the last Treh Chrittar.

24. Why is the wording of 'Mool Mantra' (Sikh fundamental creed) given in the original source books of Sikh scripture, ‘Mohan Vali Pothi’a’, is different than in present day accepted Sikh 'Mool Mantra'?

GURU PANTH

6. What is the Khalsa Panth (Nation)? If Khalsa Panth is but one as modern day Sikhs in general claim. Then why for example, does not the Akhand Kirtani Jatha (A.K.J.) Rehit (Khalsa code of conduct) not tally with that of the Shromani Gurudwara Parbandak Committee (S.G.P.C.) with regards to fundamentals such as the Meat, Keski (small turban), Pakhand Kirtan (kirtan not done to Raags), 'Naam Drirh' and Raagmala? And, why does the S.G.P.C. Rehit Maryada not tally with Dam Dami Taksal etc., and visa versa?

16. If only Khalsa initiated Sikhs can be true Sikhs, as modern Tat Khalsa mentality Sikhs contend, then, how do we account for the innumerable Sahejdhari (non-Khalsa) Brahmgiani (spiritual accomplished) Udasi, Nirmala and Seva Panthi Sikhs such as Bhai Khanaiya, Baba Gurbax Das, Baba Seva Das, Bhai Addan Shah, Bhai Vasti Ram etc in Sikh history?

21. Once the Budha Dal and Akal Takht Jathedar (leader) were but the same person up to 1922. Why was this age-old Guru-ordained institution then displaced by the British created S.G.P.C.?

22. If the Akal Takht Jathedar is the highest individual authority in Sikhism then why is he a paid employ of the S.G.P.C. and under the District Commissioner of Punjab?

23. If Sikhs are such upholders of truth then why do they tolerate such a obviously spiritually inept and corrupt British Raj-created institution as the S.G.P.C. in charge of its shrines where jathedars (leaders) are changed on an almost monthly basis?

GURMAT SANGEET

7. If most of the Sikh scriptures are prescribed by the Sikh Guru’s to be sung according to specific Raag (classical Indian music meters) then why are the vast majority of Sikhs ignoring these Raags when singing Sikh scriptures?

8. How come the European harmonium has replaced traditional Sikh classical musical instruments in Sikh temples?

All questions taken from www.sarbloh.com

[Guest]

I m suprised nobody even tried answer these above questions...lets ponder upon them guys...and try to answer them with our best knowledge...i ll post my answers in a bit...please everyone try to answer them...don't have to be accurate....answer may varies ...depending on the individual beleifs etc...but no worries...lets take a shot at it.

:D

[Guest]

Well all I can come up with is that hand writtern scripts by Guru Gobind Singh Ji have been burned i think during 1984?

I feel just as angry as you do, but im not ganna blow my head. I also feel that why would the truth been hiddern from us, where is the real sikhi gone?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahguru Ji Ki Fateh

weather many brothers and sisters of Das may call him agent of RSS or may many so called follower Kala Afghana call him 'still a hindu',Das finds no problem to call himself true Sanatan Dhrami(and one who call one self hindu Dhrami can never be Sanatan Dhrami). As Sanatan Dhrama is faith or religion with universal appeal while Hinduism is more a norrow nationality.

So as Das is from Bihar(east india) so which is hub of stounch Sikhs (including Nirmalas) so by the mercy of Panth Das will make a few points to answer the quiestions which das thinks that Nihungs and other Sanatan Khalsa will agree. As they have raiseed the quiestion they may have answer to it.They are not creating any conroversy in faith but are pulling leg of those people who are rigid and unreasonable but term us s brahmanical ie ritualitics.

Regrading 5 ks we could see the Sikhi Rahit at last of Dasam Granth given by Tenth Nanak it is in Farsi

Nishan e Sikhi Hrruf Panj Kaff

ie mark of Sikhism are (perhaps) letter/word five ks.

They are Hairs(Kes),Kangha(comb),Kaccha(Shorts of a particular style),Karra(Iron bangle) and Sabre(Kirpan).Without kes all four are useless.

In three forms Three mudra as kes are mentioned comb is understood to be included for thier upkeep. Likewise with Kaccha,which is mark of moral restrain over lust ,we could have been told to understand moral restrain on greed as Karrah prevent our hand to do wrong.

Regarding the Sahijdhari Matter,All are Sikhs if they consider Akal as thier Guru and its verbal Manifestaion Guru Granth as Guru(For Nihungs Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar too). So in Guru Dwara when we say Guru roop pyari Sadh Sangat(beloved company of Sadhaks(one who is in way to get to God) who is from of Guru) then it also includes Sahijdharis,A Sahijdhari is a Sikh,He/She could be formerly hindu or Muslim but now it is in a way to become Khalsa. Goal of Sahijdhari ie slow adopter is to adopt Khalsa order. This is done only in same life or another birth could be taken,It is upto Akal.

likewise with or without Ragas just repeating the word Wahiguru Wahiguru without knowing its meaning and calling it Kirtan is of no use.Gurudev wrote it in Akalustat,There is a bird called Pudna,who keeps on saying tu hi ,tu hi ie you only,you only without knowinh what does it means.So in such case bird does not gets salvation. So even we read,We sing or we listen Gurbani ,till we do not understand it, we do not get any thing out of it.

Regarding Kartarpur Vali Bir,It is not the Damdami Bir ,Which was bestowed Guru Gaddi(along two other books).as former has verses from Ninth Nanak too. Whereas in Kartarpur wali birs we even have a page on which a Granthi has written a formula to make gold out of metal(alchemy) But bani is in same ink while descripancies are in different writing and in different ink.Perhaps as legend says Fifth Nanak left a few pages clear to be fulfilled by someone in future.Ie Bani of Ninth Master.We could see that Damdami Bir Contains all Gurbani from there(Kartarpur Bir) as well as Salaok Mahal Ninth .

Regrading Dasham Granth Ji,even if we belive that it is not written by Gurudev(in total) as Kavi Shyam is ofeten metioned who was one of the 52 poets of Gurudevs court. Yet das is sorry to differ with Mr Kala Afghan group that it is not as per with Gurumat. As in Adi Guru Darbar to contribution of poets from court are there and are valid.So likewise new testment was compiled much after christ and had contribution by many a saints but is vaild in christianity. So Dasham Guru Darbar(not the Patna Versin but bhai Mani Singh Version) is valid.Its explanation by Dr Jodh Singh is totally valid and as per Gurmat. Like the work of Prof Sahib Singh Ji on Adi Guru Darbar.

Regarding Triya Chriter,It puts some light on immoral acts in religious,social and political life of hindus and muslims of that time as by that time most were nether Muslim nor Hindu(did not Firest Master Said after rever vien episode).

Lastly present day Akalis draw thier name from Nihungs who are real Akalis. So if they have to be real Akali they need to get Baptisem from Nihungs(budhadal,Trroon Dal,Hariyan vela or other Jatha) else they(Aklis) are fake Akalis.If you see and compare the situation in the form of Preachining ,Harmony with other faiths,Unity, Management in correct way,You will find it better in Takhats outside Punjab,which too are termed Brahmanical than the one controoled by sgpc.

Better is Jathedar of Budhadal takes over Akal Takhat.

And election for sgpc must be carried out under the security of Army of Akal ie Nihungs and not the Indian Police/para military.

[Guest]

jai mahaakal ki

[Guest]

1. Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' (three adornments - kard, kachera and kesh) instead of the '5 Ks'*

(* The 5 K - kesh (unshorn hair), kara (steel/iron war bracelet), kirpan/kard (dagger), kanga (wooden comb) and kachera (breeches))?

This question leads me to another question which is-

Why Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagrids beleive in treh mudra when in the actual maryada of Budda dal beleif in samparoon 5 ks(kesh, kanga, kachera, kirpan, kara) ? .

Who is right here??

After all Nihangs in Uk claim to be part of Budda Dal Maryada in India

[Narsingha]

This question leads me to another question which is-

Why Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagrids beleive in treh mudra when in the actual maryada of Budda dal beleif in samparoon 5 ks(kesh, kanga, kachera, kirpan, kara) ? .

Who is right here??

After all Nihangs in Uk claim to be part of Budda Dal Maryada in India

Where is it mentioned that "Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagirds" believe in treh mudra"? All that is stated is that:

"Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' ..."

What "Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagirds" belive is irrelevant. :roll:

Perhaps Nihang Gurmant Singh can shed some light on matters..

[Guest Javanmard]

5 kakkars and tre mudre are the same thing...

[Guest]

Where is it mentioned that "Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagirds" believe in treh mudra"? All that is stated is that:

"Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' ..."

What "Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagirds" belive is irrelevant.

Perhaps Nihang Gurmant Singh can shed some light on matters..

It doesnt mentioned in the above post that nns and his shagrids beleifs in treh mudra... but on my trip to england.. i have seen this practise in the akhara... which i m confused about....warriors in akhara took the kara off... upon question... i was told that its not safe to do training with big kara's on .. understandable .. but then i ask myself they can wear small ones(substitues) that way atleast all 5k's are not separated from the body...this question lead me to beleif that shagirds and nns doesnt beleive in 5k's but treh mudra (kachera, kirpan , kesh).

please tell me if my judgement is wrong and absurd?? And make me understand if you take off one/two kakar from your body in times of training... what does that mean?? Either they dont beleive in 5k's or they beleive in it but very loose/free on kakars just like how our brothers nirmalaye singhs/sant mahapurshs are.. !

I just need a clarification thats all !

[Guest]

5 kakkars and tre mudre are the same thing...

How is it same thing?

Please help

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

We keep our Iron Bangle(Karra) in our pocket or in dastar While we undergo training this is more in case of unarmed combat of Platha,To avoid harm to our comrades. While we take bath our Kirpan often is kept on our Turban. So if Karra is with us Das thinks no problem.

We are not much rigid like hindu ritualistics. Detail on terh Mudra will be given by next week. As Das is reading Sarbloh Granth JI.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Neo, the Treh Mudra (kesh, Karad and Kachh) through implication includes the 5 Kakkars (i.e. Kesh + Khanga and Karad + Kara).

[tSingh]

Neo,

Many Nihangs I know have the panj shaster in their damalay.

[sukhsingh]

Neo,

Many Nihangs I know have the panj shaster in their damalay.

all nihangs are suppose to haev this

[sukhsingh]

"Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' ..."

What "Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagirds" belive is irrelevant. :roll:

Perhaps Nihang Gurmant Singh can shed some light on matters..

y dont u listen to sri dasam granth sahib ji, which u guys put on the same level as guru sahib.

it cleraly says there are punj kakkars. :roll:

n3o singji ur abosloty right

Why Nihang Niddar Singh and his shagrids beleive in treh mudra when in the actual maryada of Budda dal beleif in samparoon 5 ks(kesh, kanga, kachera, kirpan, kara) ? .

Who is right here??

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

As stated before, Treh Mudra are not different from the Punj Kakkar, see Amrit Veers posts on this matter under the Keski thread as to how the term "Punj Kakkar" came into being..."Treh Mudra" is the term used by Guru Sahib in the Sarab Loh Granth and also in various puratan rehitnamas.

This is much the same as the Punj Bania not being explicitly listed in full in the older rehitnamas (see Piara Singh Padam's intro on his works to his book "Rehitnamae"), however most agree on there being the Punj Bania, despite early references being only to Jap and Jaap in most cases.

Please can we ensure that we address the questions and not begin discussing the personalities on the website that has 'presented' them. There are plenty of other threads which exist for discussing views on the UK Nihangs and Niddar Singh, if that is what one desires.

This thread is limited to the questions listed above -please let's focus on these, since the answer will bring forth many an interesting points and as said before on the Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh thread, please allow your comments to carry the weight of your argument and not let this fall into playground mudslinging.

Thanks,

SMS

[drawrof]

I'd like to read the post by amrit veer,

reason being that I read sections of sarbloh granth and other books written pre singh sabha times which say that kach, kes, kirpan are the trai mudra.

I have read that nihangs wear karray and that nirmallay saw karray as a nihang practice.

I'll give references.

I respect everyone's opinion and enlightenment on these issues, my only concern in the matter is that we don't sit there and interpolate today's standard with yesterdays.

regards

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

well as das told before here it comes.

Guru Updesh Sikhkhan Prati Bhashan,Mudrit Kuchchh Kes Kirpan.

(Sarbloh Granth,Budhdal Version Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860)

This litterary means

Preaching of Guru Spoken(Speech) towards Sikhs,Wearning Kuchchh,Kes Kirpan.

Here mudrit word is used for wearing,other meaning of mudrit are

Ornnmented,Decorated and last but not the least Casted.

As mudranh means in Sanskrit casting the coins.

So other meaning could be

Preaching of Guru Spoken(Speech) towards Sikhs,Casted(with)Kuchchh,Kes Kirpan ie from Sikh made ie with 3ks or made having 3ks.

So if Some one say I have an apple in my right hand,does it to be taken that left is empty. Till it is not further provided that left is empty or full.

So if three ks are told that does not means that other 2 ks are not present. Whereas in older book(Dasham Guru Darbar is older then Sarbloh Guru Darbar as latter was perhaps completed at Hazur Sahib Ji,Nanded,Maharashtra) 5ks are already mentioned. So it will be unfit for us that Guru Dev Ji would have again repeated 5ks togather so that during our generation there couold be some doubt regarding 3 or 5.

As he told us before only they are 5,then regarding 3ks he mentioned in Sarbloh Guru Darbar,In whole verse he is telling something to/about Khalsa,As he saw 3 kes visible inattrie so he might have said this.

Nihungs Kes 's(Hair) are visible wraped in turban. Kachchera(sHORTS) are also visible near thighs and Kirpan is always visible.But Karra can go under the cuff or shirt and Kangha is in Hairs so last to may not be visible to public.That couold be the reason that 3 ks were mentioned as per Das.

In previous post when das wrote we are not retualitics like hindus it was not an attack on Hindus but some of our own groups who are very much rigid more then hindus or BRahmins,they make useless fuss about small matters.

Say Kes Ki means of kes or of Hair and not the small turban,If Keski is one of the five Ks then any one can cut his/her hair and yet can wear keski.(otherwise das has maney buddies in gruops who belive keski is one of the 5ks but as they pull leg of nihungs so das retaliates but as such inspite of ideological differances ,We respect each other and for the welfare of Panth,all Sikhs are united).

Das looks forward to gain more knowledge in future and seeks pardoning if wrong is written.

[aguptkaur]

Can somebody update us on the exact line giving the ang number of Sarbloh Granth that states/suggests 3 k`s so we can do vichar on it.

Nobody has done this yet.

Vijaydeep Singh you havent replied back as you promised????It's coming upto 5 months

[aguptkaur]

I have been to amritworld I dont think it gives the ang number although it gives the line, does anyone know the ang or the entire shabad or path it is written in????

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

dear sister read the post of Das carefully.Das is again cutting and passting it in quotes.

Guru Updesh Sikhkhan Prati Bhashan,Mudrit Kuchchh Kes Kirpan.

(Sarbloh Granth,Budhdal Version Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860)

[aguptkaur]

apologies should have read it properly

agree with your views though

is there any chance putting the whole shabad/path up so we can see what context the line is in????

[dassan das]

3ks

why does sant singh wear 5ks

speaking of 5ks so does

baba makhan singh baba bakalia

baba diah singh bidhi chandia

baba nihal singh tarna dal

maybe its just giddar and his chela of buming dal uk

[Guest]

Dassan das, maybe you should do some research into historical texts, and puratan rehitnamas rather then looking at old babey and automatically assuming.

Maybe you could explain why Tanakhahnama, Prashan-uttar and Prailad Rai Rehitnama have no refference to 5Ks? Chaupa Singh rehitnama mentions kach, dadha karab kakhan, not 5Ks, Later in the rehitnama it states a Khalsa should possess kach kirpan and kesh, not 5Ks. Desa Singh rehitnama doesnt mention the 5Ks, still again Kach Kesh Kirpan. Daya Singh Rehitnama requires a Khalsa Sikh to wear a Kach, Sri Sahib (sword) and Lohe Ki Karad, and later mentions keeping of Kesh, not still no sign of 5Ks in the modern sense.

Sau Sakhi mentions nothing about 5Ks or 3Ks, just the obligation of keeping kesh. Prem Sumarag doesnt mention 5ks, nor do the gurbilas works. Gur Sobha, Panth Parkash refer to Kach Kesh and Karad. Sarbloh Granth doesnt mention 5Ks either, just Kach Kesh and Kirpan. Suraj Parkash states "Kesh Kach Karad Guru ki tin mudra ih"

so in this light, is it "giddar" who has it wrong, or u?

[aguptkaur]

so nidder is the one who knows this and the rest including all nihang dals believe in 5

this is really interesting

sounds like a cult

i hope he doesnt kill all his chele before topping himself!!!