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Bhagats and Gurus Any difference through Bani?


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Dear All,

After reading thread related to Akali Guru, I was curious to know anwser for my question so here im starting new discussion.

First of all I will post information and then in next post I will post my questions.

Source: http://www.sikhs.org/granth2.htm

The writings of the Gurus appears chronologically. Each of the Gurus signed their hymns as Nanak. Their compositions are identified by the numerals at the beginning of each hymn, ie. Mahalla 1 is Guru Nanak, Mahalla 2 is Guru Angad and so on. These are then followed by those of other saints (Bhagtas) and other contributors. Their are 3,384 hymns found in the Guru Granth Sahib broken down by author are:

The Gurus

Guru Nanak Dev: 974 hymns including sloks and pauris

Guru Angad Dev: 62 sloks

Guru Amar Das: 907 hymns including sloks and pauris

Guru Ram Das: 679 hymns including sloks and pauris

Guru Arjan Dev: 2,218 hymns including sloks and pauris

Guru Tegh Bahadur: 59 hymns and 56 sloks

Guru Gobind Singh: 1 slok

The Bhagatas: Saints of various faiths

Kabir: 292 hymns Bhagat Kabir (1398 to 1495) was born to a Brahmin mother and raised by a muslim step mother. Bhagat Kabir was a proponent of the Bhakti movement. He lived as a householder, abhored the caste system and religious rituals. He was an saintly apostle of peace, love and unity and a great poet. Bhagat Kabir believed in inward purity, and was respected by both Hindus and Muslims.

Namdev: 60 hymns Bhagat Namdev (1270 to 1350) was a celebrated saint from Maharashtra who travelled extensively across the country. He lived in Punjab for a number of years.

Ravidas: 41 hymns A contemporary of Bhagat Kabir and a disciple of Bhagat Ramanand, Bhagat Ravidas represents the culmination of the Bhakti Movement. He came from a low caste cobbler family but had many desciples because of his spirituality. He stressed a life of simplicity and piety.

Sheikh Farid: 4 hymns and 130 sloks Sheikh Farid (1175 to 1265) was a muslim Sufi saint of great piety. He is considered the father of Punjabi poetry. He was greatly loved for his kindness and humanity. He stressed living a simple yet purposeful life concentrating on One God.

Trilochan: 4 hymns A contemporary of Bhagat Kabir and a celebrated sain of the Vaish caste. He believed in One God and condemned superficial rituals and stressed the holiness of the heart.

Dhanna: 4 hymns Bhagat Dhanna was a Jat from Rajasthan who was born in 1415. He lived most of his life as an idol worshipper but in later years became a worshipper of One God and renounced all superstitious practices.

Beni: 3 hymns Probobly a contemporary of Bhagat Namdev, not much is known about him. He was unperturbed by poverty and enjoyed a life of solitude enriched by his spiritual persuits. He was a great scholar as is evident from his writings.

Sheikh Bhikan: 2 hymns A muslim Sufi scholar saint Sheikh Bhikan died in the early part of Akbar's reign. He was one of the most learned men of his time. He believed that only God's name can heal a diseased mind and body.

Jaidev: 2 hymns Bhagat Jaidev was a renowned poet laureate in the royal court of king Lakshman Sen of Bengal. His famous work of peotry Gita Govinda is well known for its poetic beauty and musical richness.

Surdas: 1 hymn Bhagat Surdas was a Brahmin born in 1529. He was learned in Sanskrit and Persian and studied music and poetry. He was appointed a governor by emperor Akbar, but was later imprisoned for dereliction of duty. Towards the end of his life, he became a hermit and lived among holy men.

Parmanand: 1 hymn Born in Maharashtra, little is known about Bhagat Parmanand's life. It is believed that he lived in Maharashtra and was a devotee of Krishna. He later became a proponent of One God.

Pipa: 1 hymn Born in 1425, Bhagat Pipa was the king of the princely state of Gagaraungarh. He abducated his throne, travelled extensively and became a disciple of Bhagat Ramanand. He lived a life of extreme austerity and humility.

Ramanand: 1 hymn Bhagat Ramanand, a Brahmin was born in 1359 in Madras. He is regarded as the pioneer of the Bhakti movement in northern India. A Vaishnava in his early life, he became a worshipper of brahm and condemned the caste system. Bhagat Kabir was the most renowned amongst his disciples.

Sadhna: 1 hymn A butcher by profession, Bhagat Sadhana was born in Sind. His piety and meditation of God elevated him to saintly status. He was condemned by Brahmins and on a false charge was arrested and buried alive.

Sain: 1 hymn Bhagat Sain was a barber of the royal court of Raja Ram, king of Rewa. He was a follower of Bhagat Ramanand and Bhagat Kabir.

The Bhatts

The Bhatts were a group of musicians who lived in the sixteenth century. All of them were scholars, poets and singers.

Kal: 49 Swayyas

Kalsahar: 4 Swayyas

Tal: 1 Swayya

Jalap: 4 Swayyas

Jal: 1 Swayya

Kirat: 8 Swayyas

Sal: 3 Swayyas

Bhal: 1 Swayya

Nal: 6 Swayyas

Bhikha: 2 Swayyas

Jalan: 2 Swayyas

Das: 1 Swayya

Gayand: 5 Swayyas

Sewak: 7 Swayyas

Mathura: 10 Swayyas

Bal: 5 Swayyas

Harbans: 2 Swayyas

Sikhs

Mardana: 3 sloks Baba Mardana was a rabab (rebeck) player who spent most of his life as a disciple and musician of Guru Nanak. Born a Muslim, Baba Mardana was a childhood friend of Guru Nanak and accompanied him on all his great travels.

Satta and Balwand: 1 Var Satta was a rebeck player who served Guru Angad, Guru Amar Das, Gur Ram Das and Guru Arjun Dev. Along with his fellow musician Balwand they jointly composed a ballad which appears in the Guru Granth Sahib.

Sunder: 1 hymn Baba Sunder (1560-1610) was the great grandson of Guru Amar Das. His composition called Sadd (Calling) was written at the request of Guru Arjun Dev after the death of Guru Ram Das.

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1. Can we descriminate between Gurus bani and Bhagats Banis?

2. Is there any difference between their Bani when we read Bani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

3. Should we say our Gurus were Higher than Bhagats? Or we can't compare Bhagats on the same level as Gurus?

4. Don't we know that Guru Gobind Singh ji our last living Guru has clearly said that whoever would call him God would burn in hell fire? So why do we want to make them another God?

5. When Gurus themselves claimed that they were simple human and worshipper of God.

6. Also, they clearly said that they were here to show us the way to reach that almighty not to become almighty by themselves then why sikhs are into making them God?

Please discuss and keep open mind. It's not an attack but questions.

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I will attempt to answer your questions, Vahiguru Ji :D

1. Can we descriminate between Gurus bani and Bhagats Banis?

We cannot discriminate between Satguru Bani and Bhagat Bani.Because there is only Ik Onkar, not one Onkar for Bhagat Namdev and another different Onkar for Satguru Teg Bahadar.Both Bhagat Bani and Satguru Bani come from Vahiguru.

2. Is there any difference between their Bani when we read Bani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

Fundementally there is no difference between Bhagat and Satguru Bani.It is up to a persons intellect to understand.

3. Should we say our Gurus were Higher than Bhagats? Or we can't compare Bhagats on the same level as Gurus?

Satguru have higher status because of the simple fact that they are our Satguru.For an outsider (non-Sikh) their status would be equal.

4. Don't we know that Guru Gobind Singh ji our last living Guru has clearly said that whoever would call him God would burn in hell fire? So why do we want to make them another God?

5. When Gurus themselves claimed that they were simple human and worshipper of God.

6. Also, they clearly said that they were here to show us the way to reach that almighty not to become almighty by themselves then why sikhs are into making them God?

In answer to questions 4, 5 and 6, I will quote from Encyclopedic Dictionary of Yoga by Georg Feurstein:

The following stanzas form the Shiva-Samhita (III.II; 13f.), a late mdeieval work on hatha-yoga, illustrate the superlative importance of the guru's role in practically all schools.

[Only] the knowledge imparted through the guru's mouth is productive [of liberation]; otherwise it is fruitless, weak, and the cause of much affliction.

There is no doubt that the guru is one's father; the guru is one's mother; the guru is God.Therfore he should be served by all in deed , speech, and thought.

By the guru's favor (prasada) everything auspicious for oneself is obtained...

Do you think that Bhai Lahna Ji (Satguru Angad Dev) thought of Satguru Nanak Nirankar as just a "teacher," just a "guru"?

I will also quote from Sri Yoga Vasishtha: The spiritual dialogue between Sri Ramchandra and Sri Vasishtha by R.M Hari:

Regarding the importance of satguru, the *Master believed that salvation is not possible without a guru (preceptor).He said, "If on the path of devotion a seeker treats his satguru only as a saint or a preceptor, it must be assumed that he has yet to commence his journey.But when he treats his guru as God, he is said to have begun his journey.To a seeker his guru is everything, and glorification of the guru to any extent is inadequate.This must be the attitude of a seeker, only this is help ful, but up to a certain point, as long as he is on the path of devotion, and not hereafter."

*Sri (Dr.) Rochaldas Sahib (a Sufi luminary, 1880-1957)

Look deeper.Our journey has not even begun...

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I personally like to add my comments....

First of all, there is no difference if you think there is a difference then you havent understood the concept of Nirgun and Sargun in siri guroo granth sahib ji (Dhoor ki bani, Atam Ras, Labor of love),

But i do understand why people have difference between gurbani and bhagat dii bani which is one... praise of that anand da sagar vaheguroo....

is most likely because of their bhavna(emotions) towards guroo and not bhagats...this kinda of bhavna can be very confusing...everything in sggs ji is one which is guroo nanak sahib nirankar.....updesh is same given to sikh by guroo's and bhagats since they are not two but one because they have merged with that anand da sagar vahegurooo become with it....

Thats why sikhi is soo universal...because updesh is given to not only sikhs but every human kind on this earth how to attain god..

In my eyes, Sikhi is not a mere relegion but Spirtual Way of life in this kalyug to help as jiv's who are crying for peace of mind, dying in thrist of that anand da sagar vaheguroo...dyin to merge with it which is why we all here....

:D

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Interesting post…

I’m sure most would agree that the bani of our gurus and that of bhagats are equal. Guru sahib has clarified this:

"Baani guru, guru hai baani" SGGS p.982

"The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani"

Hence Bhagat Bani is Guru it self.

Also bani cannot be Distinguished:

"eikaa baani eik gur eiko sabadh veechaar" SGGS p.646

"There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate."

So imo, it Q’s 5,6 and 7 which are most intriguing.

On this forum I’ve seen no, of people refer to Guru Nanakl Ji and “nirankar†(ie God).

So q’s 5/6/7 allude to:

Is/was Guru Nanak Ji Waheguru??

Hari,

question for you bhaj:

If Guru Nanak Ji is Nirankar Waheguru, then who does Guru Nanak Ji worship/pray/meditate upon in bani?

Khalsa Fateh

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If Guru Nanak Ji is Nirankar Waheguru, then who does Guru Nanak Ji worship/pray/meditate upon in bani?

An Million dollar question

In my opnion,

Guroo nanak sahib nirankar pray to nirankar itself but in nargun form.. I was hearing tape..Its been beleived that naam is important than naami...if you follow that logic then guroo nanak sahib nirankar even though being himself as nirankar he focused on that naam of vaheguroo...gurmantar and mool mantar.... :D

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If Guru Nanak Ji is Nirankar Waheguru, then who does Guru Nanak Ji worship/pray/meditate upon in bani?

Excellent question J.Singh Ji.

My answer: Vahiguru ofcourse.Vahiguru was the Satguru of Satguru Nanak Nirankar.

Therefore the equation is: Nirankar = Satguru Nanak = Nirankar = Satguru Nanak...

Let me give an analogy: You have an empty bottle with the top screwed on.You throw it in the sea.It floats right?You take off the top and thrown in again.Bottle sinks.The sea is now inside the bottle aswell as outside the bottle.Therefore sea = bottle and bottle = sea.

I hope I haven't confused you. :D

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All Atamgyani/Brahmgyani are Parmesar.Says so in Sukhmani Sahib.

Atamgyan = Brahmgyan = Atamgyan = Brahmgyan...

The difference between Satguru Nanak Nirankar and a Brahmgyani for us Sikh is that He was given Gur-gaddi (Guruship) by Vahiguru, which He passed onto Bhai Lahna Ji (Satguru Angad Nirankar).And He passed onto Satguru Amar Das Nirankar and so on.

Remember there are many traditions who have self made guru.Satguru Nanak was not self made.

Vahiguru made Him Guru of this world.

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My answer: Vahiguru ofcourse.Vahiguru was the Satguru of Satguru Nanak Nirankar.

Then this begs the question(s)

Why would GuruJi worship himself?

Why would guruJi in his tenth form declare that anyone who worshiped him, would got straight to hell?

Why would waheguru in his 5th and 9th form allow himself to be tortured and martyred?

Why would Guruij in his 10th form mediate for four Jugs (in his previous life), then get called by ‘himself’ to spread righteousness? (bachittar natak)

Bhaj I could go on, but I’m sure you get the idea…

I’d be very surprised if most of us were not confused on this issue….

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Then this begs the question(s)

Why would GuruJi worship himself?

Why would guruJi in his tenth form declare that anyone who worshiped him, would got straight to hell?

Why would waheguru in his 5th and 9th form allow himself to be tortured and martyred?

Why would Guruij in his 10th form mediate for four Jugs (in his previous life), then get called by ‘himself’ to spread righteousness? (bachittar natak)

Bhaj I could go on, but I’m sure you get the idea…

I’d be very surprised if most of us were not confused on this issue….

Atma means self.

There is two types of atma (self).There is atma, which is mundane the self, subject to pain and pleasure, akin to the Semitic concept of soul.And there is Atma (aka Paramatma) which is the Transcendental Reality, which is our real identity.

It is true, atma worships Atma, and also true that Atma worships Atma.

The Transcendental Self is the worshipper of the Transdendental Self.

All is Atma.Your Self exists not just in you but in everybody and everything.

Transcendental = to transcend, go beyond all concepts, subjective, objective notions.Beyond The Beyond.

I can only give you an idea.The rest is up to you.

Satguru Nanak Nirankar is living breathing this very second.He is right infront you, inside you and outside of you.

Take the plunge...

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you asked:

Why would GuruJi worship himself?

Its not himself veer ji, its the jot of nirankar which is nirankar himself. I know what you mean by your question..you are askin if guroo is nirankar then why does he need to worship that nirankar... guroo maharaj ji consider himself worm infront of vaheguroo darbar (that much nirmata) even though guroo himself nirankar still that much nirmatta to prevent ego (Haumaie) even exist near guroo sahiban...

Best example i can give you its harnayaksh... he did lot of bhagti and he did got spirtual powers from vaheguroo but then ego comes and he start abusing the power of akaal by bothering parlad his son and then akaal sent narsingha avtar to end his oppression.

you asked:

Why would guruJi in his tenth form declare that anyone who worshiped him, would got straight to hell?

This is most probably guroo ji meant worship him as in idols and stuff.. i say nothing is wrong with naam simran having sargun saroop of our guroo sahiban or even bhramgyanis...depends on your bhavna towards which sargun saroop of vaheguroo.

you asked

Why would waheguru in his 5th and 9th form allow himself to be tortured and martyred?

This is because...It was meant to be like that.. guroo sahiban has some much nirmata that they couldnt argue with hakum of that maha akaaaaaaaaal...

you asked:

Why would Guruij in his 10th form mediate for four Jugs (in his previous life), then get called by ?himself? to spread righteousness? (bachittar natak)

This is not ego if thats what you think... He get called by maha akaaaaal(nirgun form) even though guroo ji is both sargun and nargun.

I hope i didnt confused you...

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Hari/neo

Brothers, If I’m understanding your points - you guys are stating that there is one jot/light, as guruji writes:

“Sabh mah jot, jot hai so, tis dae chaanan sab mai chaanan hoeâ€

hence there is nirgun nirankar in all (hari – believe this is the transcendental concept you’re discussing? and the analogy of the bottle being full and surrounded).

also, if im reading correctly, you guys also imply that be guru Nanak Ji is Sargun Nirankar.

However, when reading Gurbani, this idea is not consistent (to me).

Eg:

SGGS p20, Guru Nanak Ji:

lakh siaanap jae karee lakh sio preeth milaap ||

Even if someone has hundreds of thousands of clever mental tricks, and the love and company of hundreds of thousands of people

bin sa(n)gath saadhh n dhhraapeeaa bin naavai dhookh sa(n)thaap ||

still, without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, he will not feel satisfied. Without the Name, all suffer in sorrow.

har jap jeearae shhutteeai guramukh cheenai aap ||3||

Chanting the Name of the Lord, O my soul, you shall be emancipated; as Gurmukh, you shall come to understand your own self. ||3||

than man gur pehi vaechiaa man dheeaa sir naal ||

I have sold my body and mind to the Guru, and I have given my mind and head as well

thribhavan khoj dta(n)dtoliaa guramukh khoj nihaal ||

I was seeking and searching for Him throughout the three worlds; then, as Gurmukh, I sought and found Him.

sathagur mael milaaeiaa naanak so prabh naal ||4||17||

The True Guru has united me in Union, O Nanak, with that God. ||4||17||

In the last vak, guru sahib writes that the true guru (is that waheguru??) has united GuruJi with Prabh (god).

So if Guru Nanak Ji is waheguru, why would GuruJi write that The Guru has united guruji with Prab (waheguru)?

Another eg:

SGGS, p133, Guru Arjun Dev Ji:

naanak kee baena(n)theeaa kar kirapaa dheejai naam ||

This is Nanak's prayer: ""Please show Your Mercy, and bestow Your Name.

har maelahu suaamee sa(n)g prabh jis kaa nihachal dhhaam ||1||

O my Lord and Master, please unite me with Yourself, O God, in the Eternal Mansion of Your Presence"". ||1||

Here the fifth Guru Nanak Ji does bentee to waheguru for Naam and Union with Prabh (God).

Again, if GuruJI is sargun Nirankar Waheguru, why does guruji request union? Union with who?

If we read most Gurbani, then GuruJi clearly distinguishes himself from Waheguru.

However, this is also intriguing:

SGGS p.864, Guru Arjun Dev Ji

gur pooraa paaeeai vaddabhaagee ||

The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune

gur kee saevaa dhookh n laagee ||

Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone

gur kaa sabadh n maettai koe ||

No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

gur naanak naanak har soe ||4||7||9||

Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

(read panna 864 fully as it also states guruJi is the creator, Transcendent Lord, the lord of the universe, supreme, divine and invisible. I think this panna is difficult to understand).

I would be interesting to see input from others also…

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In answer to your above post J.Singh Ji:

You want a definate answer to your queries regarding Guru, Satguru and Vahiguru.

You can only gain this answer if you submit to Hukam Razaaee.Your not going to get real answer form me or anyone else.

When you are at a stage where you can actually converse with the Creator, then you will find the answer to everything about the relationship between your Satguru and your Creator and you.

How can the Satguru of Satguru Nanak unite Satguru Nanak with Prabhu?

Could Satguru be an aspect of Prabhu (Vahiguru)?Could the Satguru that Gurbani talks about be Divine Consciousness.Is Divine Consciousness an emanation from That about which nothing can be said?

What do I know?

Vahiguru...

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