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I just found this shabad...

This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Salok Kabeer Jee on Pannaa 1377

kbIr BWg mwCulI surw pwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ]

kabeer bhaa(n)g maashhulee suraa paan jo jo praanee khaa(n)hi ||

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswqil jWih ]233]

theerathh barath naem keeeae thae sabhai rasaathal jaa(n)hi ||233||

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

from sikhitothemax...

I dont understand...I thought sikhs dont beleive in heaven or hell.

And also are things listed that specific in the sggs?(gives examples of wine, marijuana etc.)

Cocaine isnt listed, so if one was to consume cocaine, he wouldnt go to "hell." But, one that consumes fish will?

The only thing I can remember about this is that you should not take intoxicants to the level where you can not control your mental state.

But it says we can not consume fish?

Sorry if this question has been posted, but I just ate fish last night without knowledge of this...so :cry:

Can anyone provide me with more information about this? :?:

Thanks in advance,

-Singh

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Guest Javanmard

I dont understand...I thought sikhs dont beleive in heaven or hell.
sorry to dissapoint you but the concepts of svarg and narak do exist in Sikhi. They're just not the same as Christisanity.

Some neo-SIkhs like Kala Afghana have spread the lies about there being no svarg or narak in SIkhi. That's wrong.

These concepts exist in SIkhi but they are secondary. A SIkh does not love Akal Purakh because of fear of hell or love of heaven. A SIkh loves Akal Purakh because he/she loves to love Akal Purakh!

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Gur Fateh!

Legendary Sikh Jeeo, please consider the following comments I made elsewhere. For the record, I am a strict lacto-vegetarian, but as I always stress that is my personal choice.

Recently I have looked at this another way (if you have access to the article on Meat and Sikhi by Giani Sergill Ji, I recommend having a read for a balanced view on the subject):-

Bhagat Kabir says that those who consume bhang (marijuana), fish (machhali is also a name given to a kind of drug), or alcohol, will lose the benefit of practising “Tirath Burt Nem†the holy rituals.

However, Gurbani repeatedly says there is no benefit at all of “Tirath Burt Nem†like actions.

In this hymn, the words, “Tirath Burt Nem†are used as a phrase (which does not mean these three specific things, that is, just these three rituals, i.e., visiting holy places, daily rituals, and fasting, but refer to all kinds of rituals.

The meaning of the hymn, therefore could well be that one does not benefit at all by performing holy rituals or doing religious deeds, if one continues to lead a vicious life (sinful life). The message is that one must give up vices to benefit from religious practices. This hymn, thus, prohibits a vicious life, it does not say anything “for†or “against†eating meat.

Now agreed for some, partaking in bhang and mahaprashad may equate to a vicious life, but this is a relative judgement dependent upon your situation. I for one, living and working in London, UK as a professional do not face the same physical challenges a front soldier would and can do without the need for bhang or mahaprashad, that said, should the need arise, then as I have stated elsewhere, I firmly believe that the Khalsa are Khshatyrias (Warriors) who can adapt to any situation and win...

...as Bruce Lee said..."no way is THE way"

Forgive any foolishness on my part...

GUR BAR AKAAAL!

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I just had a question about the heaven and hell thing. I thought we believed in the concept of karma, and if you lead a bad life then you are reincarnated as something lower, and if you lead a good life you will go to god? If anyone could clear that up for me, and also fish is bad for you? I eat it quite oftenly.

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OK thanks for the "common sense" answers...../end sarcasm.

"Dude" I know they wouldnt list every freaking example, but you think FISH belongs there with alcohol and WINE? I was asking if someone knew if that translation was correct as its written, or theres some true meaning behind it...such as symbolism.

Thanks for the heaven/hell answer though, so my question remains...is fish used as symbolism for another type of intoxicant.

From my knowledge we're not supposed to use intoxicants that alter our mind-state, but would fish fall into this category?

Or is this just another pro-meat vs. anti-meat thing?

Seriously if you wish not to share your knowledge on the topic, dont post a response.

Niranjana thanks for the help, I was thinking along the lines of your answer also.

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Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Fish wouldnt fall under the intoxicant category.. its not harmful to you or produce any highs, Its actually good for your eyes and brain. Also, I would just like to add something about the heaven and hell... hell is really where we are rite now.. thats our present state... we reach heaven when we are one with the Guru... So when they say you will goto hell in the next birth it really means that you will come back here... You also mite have heard some sants saying that gurmukh people have made thier lives a heavenly experience , yet they are just like us livin on earth.

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Regarding Heaven or hell I found this on

http://allaboutsikhs.com/mansukh/031.htm

Is there Heaven or Hell (Sikhism)

Man is judged according to his actions. If he has done evil deeds, he goes into lower forms of life; if he has done noble deeds, he gets a human life again. The idea of hell and heaven is a mere hypothesis. The picture of hell as a place of varied and terrible tortures is symbolic:

"There is a stream of fire from which comes poisnous flames.

There is none else there except the self.

The waves of the ocean of fire are aflame.

And the sinners are burning in them." (A.G. p 1026)

Shaikh Farid tells us that hell is a burning lake resounding with terrible cries. It may be added that the result of a sinful life is its adverse effect on character from which ultimately comes suffering and torment. In short, to be in hell is to be out of the presence of God.

Similarly there is no actual place called heaven. Sikhism does not regard the winning of a place in heaven as a worthy object. The old Indian concept of heaven is of a beautiful place providing all sorts of comforts and luxuries. The devotee is neither afraid of hell nor anxious to go to heaven. In a way, hell and heaven are conditions of mind. The virtuous man is happy and contented, as if he is living in heaven.

The concept of hell and heaven is just a rough illustration for clarifying the doctrine of Karma. Hell and heaven refer to evil or good stages of life repectively and they can be lived here and now in our earthly existence. According to Guru Arjan, "Whereever the praises of God are sung, there verily is heaven." Likewise, the society of the wicked is a hell. The condition of an average man is described thus: "Like birds that flock in the evening on a tree, flutter with pleasure and pain, scan the skies morning and evening, wandering everywhere, driven by hunger. So the soul of man wanders and suffers on earth." The worldly man eats, enjoys and sleeps, unmindful of the higher things of life. He is free, and perhaps, may choose wrongly.

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Gur Fateh!

Khalsacrazed, please could you provide some references to back up this claim? I appreciate that this is a sensitive issue for some to which I can relate being a strict lacto-vegetarian myself (in fact at times I have also gone through complete vegan phases), however let us not get emotional about this matter.

I would refer you to the writings of Dr Andrew Weil and Dr Dharma Singh Khalsa, both of whom are vegetarian (the latter lacto-vegetarian like myself) however even they acknowledge the benefits of fish and fish-oils (please do not confuse the matter with environmental matters, as this also affects vegetables).

Dr Andrew Weil although being ovo-lacto-vegetarian, even accept a form of 'bibek' (not sarabloh) but in terms of being conscious of where you eat, what you eat and who prepares the food and how.

Khalsacrazed, if your argument agianst the eating of fish is one based upon your preferences regarding essentially a 'spiritual diet' for want of a better term, please state this and we can discuss this matter fully (again, note I am a strict lacto-vegetarian, however also note that I wear leather shoes and belts, play tabla and am considering learning the Taos...so an ethical argument can only go so far, let us be pragmatic).

All I ask is that everyone keep their comments objective and factual, if personal issues arise (i.e. I 'feel' this or that) then state them as such, but accept this is your personal feeling on the matter. To argue and accuse each other of being manmat or cult-followers over an issue such as food is exactly the kind of stupidity Guru Nanak Dev Ji speaks out against in Asa di Var.

The real 'meat-eating' Gurbani is against is that of abusing another efforts, taking advantage of anothers honest work (see my post above for the full article referenced).

Forgive any foolishness on my part, I hope we can have an intelligent discussion on the matter and have all come to a mutual understanding.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana

You know what guys

eating fish is wrong

use ur common sense

all u guys do is try and make ur own laws

this is called MANMAT

what u eat affects how u think

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What does it say in the rehit maryada

What do the panj tell you when you take amrit?

THEY SAY THAT EATING MEAT IS FORBIDDENA

AND SINCE FISH IS A FORM OF MEAT, THEN YOU CAN'T EAT IT,

AND IF YOU DO THEN IT IS A BUJJAR KUREHIT

i dont know why peopel are so stupid these dayss..

they say yeah man u can eat eggs its allowed, cause the egg is fertilized, or some crap like that,

bUT YOu know what dont believe what you want...What do the panj tell you? DONT EAT MEAT OR EGGS

its a kurehit..

when people tell you stories, and start discussions as stupid as this one on message boards, then your gonna go wrong

Because you can't eat meat or eggs.

some people say that if you cant eat meat or eggs, and your a vegetarian, then why do you drink milk? Do the panj say that you can't drink milk? No they do not say that.

YOu must listen to the panj piaras from whom u take amrit from.

You dont always have to listen to writers, because sometimes they write bullshit. EG. KALA AFGANA

so please just think of it clearly: eating meat is forbidden

think of the rehit maryada, think of when you take amrit at an amrit sanchaar

lacto vegetarian my ass- tahts good for u buddy

BUt atleast you should think about the principles rather then the crappy opinions of writers

Oh and another thing i would like to mention, let us not bend the rules to suit ourselves, that is manmatt

And then theres people who quesiton why women cant be in the panj-its sad really..

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lol bro, you got your rehat maryada mixed up..

You can eat meat...according to SGPC rehat, which is mostly commonly used, and the panj pyare dont always tell you to not eat meat.

Plus, is it not our right to question? Did Guru Nanak not teach us that blindly following is ridiculous?

And besides, think of it this way..

For the human race to develop this far from primitive times, meat was a neccessity. Maybe not know due to other crops, but to gain this much health and to go so far, man had to eat meat. (back in the day).

You really think guruji would come along and say ALL meat is banned?

You really think the guru who created the Khalsa, and once ate meat, would say all meat is banned?

http://www.sikh-dharma.org.uk/ie.htm

OTHER ARTICLES > VEGETARIANISMS > MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT EATING MEAT > QUOTES FROM SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB

clearly stated in those quotes directly from SGGS, that eating meat in NO WAY makes you more religious. If you do it, then do it for health reasons, not for religious reasons.

Anyway that was off topic, but i dont know which rehit you follow, and most panj pyare follow the one in india, which allows you to eat Non-Halal Meat, including fish and eggs.

Open up your mind bro, Gurus told us to question.

Vegetarian for religious reasons? Wow, sure sounds like a Hindu tradition.

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lol,

off what facts do you claim that meat-eating is not allowed?

I just proved you wrong off that website given above, with quotes directly from guruji.

Are you following some hinduism tradition or a ritual?

Sikhi is against that also.

Go read that website, and come back with your facts.

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As per our site policy we have asked so many times that don't just start another meat related topics. We have full thread dedicated to meat so help yourself and educate yourself by reading that thread. It's upto your own judgement what you decide to follow.

Here is thread in which we have everything related to meat.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1903

Khalsacrazed: Meat is allowed and its not my own personal opinion but hukumnama was issued by Akal Thakhat Sahib. If you have any issues please send an e-mail to jathedar Vedanti and he will anwser your questions.

"Locked"

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