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Eating meat within Rehat


Baba Manochal
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Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh

This question is not to debate whether or not eating meat is right or wrong, theres plenty of discussions on that.

This is to for those people that do eat meat. Just wanted to ask, how do you guys eat within your rehat?

From what i understand some nihangs say that meat eating is fine, but that it must be eaten only after chatka is done to the animal... i.e. cutting the head off in one blow? yes?

and that not meat but halal is a krehat? yes?

Well i just wanted to ask, is this rehat maintained at all times? I mean for example if you didnt manage to cut the head of in one blow and a bit of skin was still attached. would you still eat it or throw it away?

and is there certain animals which you cant eat? in the sense that you normally hear of goats being killed for their meat, but can you eat other animals like cows, chickens, birds, deers, pigs, horses, dogs, cats etc? Reason being that often you hear the argument that the armies didnt have time to prepare dhal etc and so had to eat meat, well if you were in those circumstances and you saw a dog would that also be chatka'd and eaten?

and how would you kill the smaller animals like birds, chickens, cats etc.

Also do eggs and fish count? can you nihangs eat eggs and fish?

how do you chatka an egg or even a fish!?

(lol this started as one question! nearly finished!!)

Finally, for the people who dont live in india but wish to eat meat, how do they chatka their animals? Do they have to buy goats and sheep and kill them in their back gardens? Where do you buy your animals from and do you have to do it secretly because surely the authorities and even your neighbours wouldnt like the idea of slaughter occuring next door! lol

What if you cant get chatka meat here? but still wanted to eat meat (as many people on this forum believe need to, i.e. in order for a balanced diet and for training as people have said on a topic to do with training and diet), for these people are they breaking the rehat by eating non-chatka meat? if you just buy and eat normal meat does that make you a krethi?

and of the people who have claimed that eating meat is ok and that chatka is fine etc, how many of you actually eat meat, and how many just talk it? Plus do you hide the fact that you are a meat eater from the people around you or are you open about it?

sorry for so many questions, but just wanted to ask. look forward to some replies, please as i have said dont make this a meat vs non meat theological debate, this is slightly different, i wish to hear from the meat eaters themselves, thank you!

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As a meat eater, I would like to mention that of all the animals I've eaten in my life, I would have no compunction against killing a specimen of any of their various species personally, with a blade, in order to eat it.

Just guessing, but perhaps the important underlying principle here is that a blade must be used to kill an animal. There is a strong revulsion towards "butchers" in Brahmanical Hindu society. Associating with a butcher would result in loss of caste. You could interpret the chatka tradition as a rejection of that attitude.

There is a Brahmin ritual that involves killing a goat or sheep religiously, and following whiich the eating of the meat of the ritually slaughtered animal is allowed. It involves a lot of Brahmins standing around the beast, and throwing punches at it from all directions. Every punch is done while a prayer is uttered (I think its "Om Svaha"). Eventually the aninal dies from the beating, its skin/hide unbroken. The pundits doing the ritual who afterwards eat the animal suffer no impurity or loss of caste. This ritual is fully described in (if I remember correctly) the biography of the 17th century French Abbott Dupont(?) who studied the beliefs and behaviour of Brahmins in order to devise ways to convert Hindus to Christianity.

Also, it would be foolish to overlook the strong similarity between the chatka tradition and Kali puja.

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From a biochemical point of view, eggs aren't meat.

Personally, I don't eat halal and my preference is for the animal that i've eaten to have been killed with the minimum of pain (ie chatka). By this mentality non-halal meat in the UK is cool coz the animals are killed quickly and efficiently. I'm not sure how fish in the UK are killed though - does any1 know?

I have to go now, my bacon butty is ready :wink:

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Don't be so sure about the slaughtering being done in painless ways in the UK. Worryingly, in the plants the stun gun does'nt finish off the beast in some cases, while it goes down the line hanging upside down, its legs broken. The bolt has to be placed directly in the middle of the forehead to have effect. Human error does happen sometimes, and this results in the animal not being properly killed by the shock. I witnessed a perfect bolt-killing once (on a pig in Germany). It was on an open farm, and it needed 2 very strong men to do it properly. Modern battery methods are not conducive to correct slaughering technique.

While I don't believe that eating meat is wrong per se, it would be wrong to pretend that modern farming methods are humane. However, in my opinion you can eat mutton and lamb in good conscience, and most other meats too. This is because the producer is the one who will be culpable for any inhumane/painful methods he uses - not I. As a consumer of the end-product, I want the beast killed humanely, and I have no control over the stages from animal to dinner. Therefore the blame lies squarely with the industry.

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So far then, it can be understood that, as long as the animal is killed by a knife, then its is fine to eat. Be it halal non-halal etc. And also that any animal is viable to be eaten as i said, horses cats dogs pigs etc.

This from what nihang say is against maryada isnt it(that halal is against rehat)? Also would the two people who have replied so far describe themselves as nihangs?? or just people who eat meat?

I am particularly looking forward to Mr narsingha's and mr llashvari's views on this topic, as they do seem to to be the experts in nihangs.

Also i know somebody who only eats halal meat and they say that halal is better because all the blood is drained out, and since the blood of the animal carries most of the diseases, by draining it, it is healthier. Also that most of us claim that halal is inhumane, but according to this person, his muslim butcher claims that the first vein/(whatever it is) he cuts is the central nerve one which stops the animal feeling any pain.

I dont know how true this is, but if this is the case, then isnt eating halal better than normal meats?

Again i realy look forward to narsingha's views, and those of people who claim they are nihangs. As meat eating nihangs, dont you feel it is wrong that two people (the guys that have posted so far) dont seem to have an issue as such with halal and would eat non-chatka meat?

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As a meat eater, I would like to mention that of all the animals I've eaten in my life, I would have no compunction against killing a specimen of any of their various species personally, with a blade, in order to eat it.

when you said the above, you didnt specify how the animal would be killed, just that it would be killed with a knife, obviously halal is also done with a knife.

So you kill all the meat that you eat with your own knife, or ensure that someone be-heads it for you? i.e. chatka?

why wouldnt you eat halal meat? whats the difference between halal and chatka? both result in dead animals, both killed with knives, both proccess involve certain prayers being read before during or after the process is committed. So what is the difference.

anyway how do most people know how the animal is killed if you buy it from the shop? doesit say on the label.. e.g. this animal was electrocuted on 24/11/03 at old mcdonalds farm in scotland? or whatever it is!

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Suffering is in everything we eat nowadays.Including lacto-vegetarian diet.Dairy cattle suffer 24/7.

http://www.ciwf.co.uk/Camp/Main/Dairy/dair...g_campaign2.htm

Take one large female mammal. Force her to breed at a very early age. Remove her offspring at a day old. Milk her to capacity for ten months, making sure she's pregnant within three months of giving birth. She is now both lactating and pregnant for at least seven months. A few weeks before she gives birth again, stop milking her. Repeat the whole cycle two or three times. By then, chronic health problems or infertility will make keeping her uneconomic, so send her to slaughter.

That's the 'CV' of the average dairy cow - a creature whose natural life span is over twenty years. It belies the cosy pastoral myth of contented cow grazing the green fields. But there's more.

The modern cow has been genetically selected to produce approximately ten times as much milk as her calf would suckle from her. (But of course the calf is now taken away at 24 - 48 hours after birth, so humans can drink the milk instead.) The cow's udder is now often so huge and so full that it forces her hind legs apart, causing abnormal gait and a high incidence of damage to the outer claw of the hind feet.

I find most lacto-vegetarians hypocrites.And yes, I do eat animal flesh.Not to just satisfy my taste buds, but also because it's good for my health.Believe it or not.

And no, I don't drink milk.Disgusting stuff *yuk*.

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So far then, it can be understood that, as long as the animal is killed by a knife, then its is fine to eat. Be it halal non-halal etc. And also that any animal is viable to be eaten as i said, horses cats dogs pigs etc.

Can someone shed some light on this: I heard that chatka just means killin with one blow and that this has been done done with (eg) a gun by Nihangs in the past. ie a 'knife' from what i gather is not what explicitly qualifies the process as being halal.

Also would the two people who have replied so far describe themselves as nihangs?? or just people who eat meat?

Neither and both at the same time :wink: I am who I am and I try to gain knowledge from as many ppl as i can.

Also i know somebody who only eats halal meat and they say that halal is better because all the blood is drained out, and since the blood of the animal carries most of the diseases, by draining it, it is healthier. Also that most of us claim that halal is inhumane, but according to this person, his muslim butcher claims that the first vein/(whatever it is) he cuts is the central nerve one which stops the animal feeling any pain.

I dont know how true this is, but if this is the case, then isnt eating halal better than normal meats?

What did u expect them to say????? A Muslim is not exactly going to criticise halal is he? lol

The UK govt. is taking steps to ban halal because it believes that the process is not humane. Also if u see the animal it is clear that it is AWARE of what is happening, and from what I saw on TV, the animal was in some distress. A side effect of this is that a massive amount of adrenaline is released into the blood to find its way into muscles. This is not natural, adrenaline is only supposed to be in the body for a short period.

Again i realy look forward to narsingha's views, and those of people who claim they are nihangs. As meat eating nihangs, dont you feel it is wrong that two people (the guys that have posted so far) dont seem to have an issue as such with halal and would eat non-chatka meat?

Baba Ji, is ur eyesight ok? Or do u believe that if something is not chatka then it must be halal??

Read my previous post again (slowly) - I quite explicitly stated that i don't eat halal.

Why do u need to know narsingha's point of view so badly? Read the shastarvidiya website and try and spot the mistake's in your original post. :?

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when the fellow mentioned knife, he didnt mention the process of killing the animal, justthat it would be killed using a knife, thus one can assume that he is referring to halal methods just as much as chatka methods.

i accept the point that you did state you dnt eat halal.

But surely a muslim could argue the same point back, that nihangs are never going to admit that their method is wrong and chatka is correct. i have never heard that the uk govt is trying to ban halal, from personal observation, the number of places catering for halal is increasing.. from where did you get that information?

if the animal is distressed during halal, then what about during chatka? if a guy is standing next to it with a big whopping sword, then isnt the animal more aware of that than a knife?

i have heard that often the animals are drugged in chatka b4 they are killed, is this also true? why does the animal need to be drugged, if that is the case.

i ask for mr narsingha's views because as i said it appears that he is the authority on nihang maryada, and thus i was hoping that he would be able to give me some concrete information. the website is rather large, and this being a discussion forum, i believe that issues should be discussed here so that everyone can have open acces to the points revealed.

also please try and answer some of the other questions i raised.

p.s. mr hari and mr beast, do you kill your own animals as well? where do you kill them?

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Baba Manochal,

I feel it's important to point out that your posts in this thread contain too many assumptions, and you have imputed from my posts things that I have not represented either implicitly or explicitly. The fact that I'm not addressing them all here does not mean that I accept them as true.

Halal is a slow-killing process that works by letting out the blood. Halal slaughter is always done by a Muslim.

If I kill an animal, whether with a penknife, meat cleaver or sword, it will neither be done slowly by letting the blood leak out, nor will it be done by a Muslim.

Therefore it would'nt be halal.

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But surely a muslim could argue the same point back, that nihangs are never going to admit that their method is wrong and chatka is correct. i have never heard that the uk govt is trying to ban halal, from personal observation, the number of places catering for halal is increasing.. from where did you get that information?

BBC Radio 5 around late March (2003) on a Friday if my memory is correct. If it helps I can get an exact date, but that might take a bit of time. The number of places catering for halal in the south east (ie London) is definately increasing no doubt, but I think that is due to the increase number of Muslim Turks and east Europeans settling in the area.

if the animal is distressed during halal, then what about during chatka? if a guy is standing next to it with a big whopping sword, then isnt the animal more aware of that than a knife?

Never seen chatka being done so I'm going to tackle this using common sense. Go up to an animal on a farm baba, take out a knife and watch its reaction. What are the chances of (eg) a lamb leggin it from u scared that its going to get cut up by a raving mad man????!?? (i'm not calling a mad man, i'm lookin at it from the lamb's perspective. I'm sure that ur mental health is unsurpassed).One place where i've seen chatka is on the shastarvidiya web site - the goat there has no idea that its going to be decapitated, its just standing there.

p.s. mr hari and mr beast, do you kill your own animals as well? where do you kill them?

I've killed some ants, annoying little sh**s. There was a good chance that it was chatka, although with the force that i came down with my foot i can't really be sure. No baba ji, i didn't eat them.

also please try and answer some of the other questions i raised.

What questions? On the whole I gave my opinion here, and I made it obvious that I don't know too much abt the chatka process.

By the way, why is this question under "Sikh Martial Arts/Nihangs"??? Are u implying that those that who do not consider themselves to be nihangs don't eat meat within Rehat, or because it is mainly Nihangs that tackle the meat issue? If its the latter then why ask Lalleshvari to get involved? I did a search on his name and it became apparent that he's not a Nihang.

Go back to your original post and decide which questions you feel have been answered. Then post those questions which u feel still need to be addressed.

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Did a quick search on Google. Here are some of the more neutral sites.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs...,922695,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../11/nmeat11.xml

this last one is interesting. half way down it says that:

Cattle could take up to two minutes to lose consciousness, the report said, while sheep and goats took up to seven seconds to become oblivious to their suffering.
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the reason i would also like to hear from mr llashvari, is because mr narsingha who is meant to be the expert on nihangs, has called llashvari an expert on nihang singhs also, therefore i was hoping to hear from both experts.

intresting articles, do you know what the govt has done further to this?

now call me stupid, but isnt it true that when a chicken is beheaded it stills runs around!? not sure if that meant to be muscular spasaming or what or is that jus an old joke?!

what do you think animal rights protestors would say if they heard that nihangs in the uk and other countries were beheading goats and sheep etc in their back yards? do you think there would be noise made then too?

not sure which prayer the muslim reads, but dont nihangs read chandi di var or chopai sahib or something like that before, or after they kill the animal? or is that while they drink the goats blood?

again you misunderstand my question... i'll repeat

the meat which you eat... as a nihang .... do you or do you not kill the meat yourself before eating it? or do you get somebody else to chatka the animal for you, hence the title of this topic, do you eat meat within the rehat of nihang maryada or not?

or do you purchase your meat from the butchers of other shops?

using your common sence would suggest that no matter what the fear felt by the animal upon seeing a knife surely it would piss its pants (lol) if the same individual pulled out a kirpan!

and from what i know of animals which i admit is not much, i have never really seen an animal stand still for long enough for a guy to walk up and chop its head off. as i admit i havent spent much time around sheeps and goats so i cant be certain, but surely animals which are fully concious are aware of their surroundings.

this point leads of naturally to the question i asked earlier about whether the animals are drugged before they are killed in chatka?

if u cant answer then fair enough, but hopefuly others will!

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what do you think animal rights protestors would say if they heard that nihangs in the uk and other countries were beheading goats and sheep etc

As a disinterested outsider (i.e. just a meat-eating Sikh) who has just eaten some delicious lamb (rogan josh) that was killed with a single action by a non-Muslim non-slaughter-by-blood-leakage method, I feel I must point out that it does look like you are out to get the nihangs.

Leave them to their religion, man. Whether you agree with it or not. How are they harming you? Would you attack the right to religion of a Jew, Hindu or Muslim?

What's so important about how you kill a damn goat (as long as it's not halal)?

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p.s. mr hari and mr beast, do you kill your own animals as well? where do you kill them?

Yes, I regularly go to the Sainsbury's jhatka counter for my animal flesh. :LOL:

If you wish to know, I have wrung (pulled rather) the necks of 3 chickens for sustenance in my life time.That was in India, at a relatives chicken farm.

Also, unlike Beast I did eat ants, when I was around 5!! :LOL::LOL::LOL:

They were an aquired taste. :LOL:

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using your common sence would suggest that no matter what the fear felt by the animal upon seeing a knife surely it would piss its pants (lol) if the same individual pulled out a kirpan!

and from what i know of animals which i admit is not much, i have never really seen an animal stand still for long enough for a guy to walk up and chop its head off. as i admit i havent spent much time around sheeps and goats so i cant be certain, but surely animals which are fully concious are aware of their surroundings.

Go visit the sheep in the fields of Wales. Pull ur weapon out on them and see if they run.

this point leads of naturally to the question i asked earlier about whether the animals are drugged before they are killed in chatka?

if u cant answer then fair enough, but hopefuly others will!

Sorry bro, u need to ask an expert on this. Is it up to the guy doin the chatka? Maybe (i'm guessin here) some Singhs in India prefer to 'drug' them while others don't.

what do you think animal rights protestors would say if they heard that nihangs in the uk and other countries were beheading goats and sheep etc in their back yards? do you think there would be noise made then too?

Why would Nihangs need to behead the animals???? It ain't halal so whats the probelem?

not sure which prayer the muslim reads, but dont nihangs read chandi di var or chopai sahib or something like that before, or after they kill the animal? or is that while they drink the goats blood?

I used to try and sing whilst drinking (cola baba ji) when I was a kid. If any Nihang needs training whilst drinking blood I will be happy to oblige. Look out 4 the new website in the future. lol

the meat which you eat... as a nihang .... do you or do you not kill the meat yourself before eating it? or do you get somebody else to chatka the animal for you, hence the title of this topic, do you eat meat within the rehat of nihang maryada or not?

or do you purchase your meat from the butchers of other shops?

Why do u keep assuming I'm a Nihang????????? Are u trying to be like Mystic Meg?

I thought the title was 'Eating Meat Within Rehat'?

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Meat is allowed as far as it is "jhatka" and this hukumnama was issued by akal thakat sahib.

As far as it goes to your sarcasm then you should have read first post by Baba Manochal ji.

This question is not to debate whether or not eating meat is right or wrong, theres plenty of discussions on that.

This is to for those people that do eat meat. Just wanted to ask, how do you guys eat within your rehat?

From what i understand some nihangs say that meat eating is fine, but that it must be eaten only after chatka is done to the animal... i.e. cutting the head off in one blow? yes? and that not meat but halal is a krehat? yes?

Purpose of this thread is not to force views but to get feedback on different issue. Also, we know our duty and you should not worry much about it.

Thanks!

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Beast says

Quote:

using your common sence would suggest that no matter what the fear felt by the animal upon seeing a knife surely it would piss its pants (lol) if the same individual pulled out a kirpan!

and from what i know of animals which i admit is not much, i have never really seen an animal stand still for long enough for a guy to walk up and chop its head off. as i admit i havent spent much time around sheeps and goats so i cant be certain, but surely animals which are fully concious are aware of their surroundings.

Go visit the sheep in the fields of Wales. Pull ur weapon out on them and see if they run.

and yet eariler you try to tell me that animals get scared when they see a man with a knife!?

Go up to an animal on a farm baba, take out a knife and watch its reaction. What are the chances of (eg) a lamb leggin it from u scared that its going to get cut up by a raving mad man????!??

Please clarify beast whether or not you believe an animal would feel fear and run when seeing a weapon. So far youre on both ships.

you say

Why would Nihangs need to behead the animals???? It ain't halal so whats the probelem?

Sorry but isnt removing the head of an animal the usual way chatka is done? im sure you could shoot it as well, but since this is meant to be a practical discussion, the liklihood of the nihangs or other meat eating sikhs who belive in chatka shooting an animal at home or elsewhere ar rather slim.

In regards to your cola comment, perhaps in the future i shall pick my words with more care, let me rephrase in regards to the drinking part.. is some type of gurbani read (by others)while a nihang drinks the animlas blood? also please can you answer the actual question itself, i.e. if halal is wrong because its a ritual which involves sacred verses being read, then are there of are there not certain shabads read before the animal is killed such as chandi di var, this is what i have heard or read somewhere, can somebody confirm or deny this?

i called you a nihang because earlier you said you was both and neither, which means you dont seem to care so i have chosen to call you a nihang since you seemed to give me the option of doing so. if im wrong please state as such.

If you say you disagree with halal or question its use does that make anyone anti muslim or does it mean your attacking muslims?

PLEASE can people answer the questions!!!

Rather than avoiding them is there no-one who can answer them?!?! i asked loads in the first post and yet hardly any have been even attempted at being answered!!

I find this very strange because on so many other posts there are remarks and jokes and arguments given for meat eating, and yet here nobody is willing to discuss the issue!! its not even a right or wrong discussion, just a practical one! only hari so far has actually answered anything!

Beast you avoided my question again. Where do you get your meat from? and how do you or another individual kill it?

its a simple question!

From using the little 'eye' thingy at the top of the page, one can see that nihal kaur has viewed this topic last on the 24th dec and narsingha on the 27th. both of these people have been advocates for meat and jhatka so pleae another appeal to you two as well, please can you answer the questions in my first post!!

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Never seen chatka being done so I'm going to tackle this using common sense. Go up to an animal on a farm baba, take out a knife and watch its reaction. What are the chances of (eg) a lamb leggin it from u scared that its going to get cut up by a raving mad man????!?? (i'm not calling a mad man, i'm lookin at it from the lamb's perspective. I'm sure that ur mental health is unsurpassed).One place where i've seen chatka is on the shastarvidiya web site - the goat there has no idea that its going to be decapitated, its just standing there

baba, u really need to learn to read and understand english. i've put what i said in quotes for you. If you are stuck ask an elder to come and help you. If you are surrounded by elders with the same understanding of the english language that you have then come and ask me what this quote means......tut tut.

Please clarify beast whether or not you believe an animal would feel fear and run when seeing a weapon. So far youre on both ships.

Give me the quotes where I have contradicted myself (taking into account your reading difficulties)

i called you a nihang because earlier you said you was both and neither, which means you dont seem to care so i have chosen to call you a nihang since you seemed to give me the option of doing so. if im wrong please state as such.

Your logic is truly amazing. Anyway, why are you trying to label me? You don't even know if i'm a Singh.

Lets do a comparison: a teacher gets a flat tyre on her car so she changes it herself. For some reason she also checks the oil, the water levels and all the tyre pressures. Does that maker her a mechanic??? No - she is still a school teacher. Similarily, I can justifiably 'label' myself as being both and neither a nihang. ie some of my qualities i share with nihangs, and others i don't............................and u thought I didn't care. lol

Sorry but isnt removing the head of an animal the usual way chatka is done? im sure you could shoot it as well, but since this is meant to be a practical discussion, the liklihood of the nihangs or other meat eating sikhs who belive in chatka shooting an animal at home or elsewhere ar rather slim.

As far as i'm aware chatka means to kill with one blow.

How does me not eating halal meat mean that I am anti-Muslim or attacking Muslims??? Use your brain cell once in a while babu. My muslim mates don't seem to mind. Can u imagine me saying to them "i am offended coz u don't eat pork"??!??! No, coz thats against their religion and I respect their beliefs. I don't eat halal and they respect my beliefs. In this particular instance you are making assumptions on a situation on which u have no knowledge coz u don't eat meat. If u did eat meat and u had any friends (and some of them were Muslim) then u would understand the situation. I quite clearly stated that the UK govt wanted to ban it, and that the animal seemed to be aware of its surroundings after its throat had been slit.

some type of gurbani read (by others)while a nihang drinks the animlas blood? also please can you answer the actual question itself, i.e. if halal is wrong because its a ritual which involves sacred verses being read, then are there of are there not certain shabads read before the animal is killed such as chandi di var, this is what i have heard or read somewhere, can somebody confirm or deny this?

Hopefully someone put there can answer this coz i'm just as ignorant as babu is here. What type of Gurbani is read, and is babu's claim that its done while some1 is drinking blood true?? (some how i doubt it is but i have no idea).

Rather than avoiding them is there no-one who can answer them?!?! i asked loads in the first post and yet hardly any have been even attempted at being answered!!

Tell u what, why don't u write down what u feel has been answered from ur original and subsequent posts. Then we can tackle all the issues that you feel have been neglected.

Finally babu, can i ask u what was your motive was for opening this thread? Did you want to learn more abt 'Eating Meat with Rehat" (which for some reason is in the Sikh Martial Arts/Nihangs section) or was it ur aim to try and create conflict coz some ppl have different views to your own???

If, by a miracle, it was the former than a lot of your questions have been answered, but unfortunately you seem to have a problem understanding english.

Beast you avoided my question again. Where do you get your meat from? and how do you or another individual kill it?

its a simple question!

Whats it to u?? I've already stated that I don't eat halal meat. Read ALL the posts again fully. Shasterkovich came out with some really good points.

I would love to rinse u more babbu, but I have to go stand in the shop now,

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