A lot of new sites around at the moment.....be aware!!!!!

[KAAL]

Ustad Nihang Niddhar Singh ji denies even dueling with Uptej singh.

i knw u said dnt quote ya, but i saw this on da website, that shastervidya.org, where he offers this challange, to this uptej singh guy

It has to be noted that Uptej Singh, who is affiliated with the Akhand Kirtani Jatha (A.K.J.) already claims in his circle of Gatkabaj to have beaten me at Anandpur, India in 1998

i got that from the website

from that i think he sayin they did duel but uptej singh is sayin he beat him and niddar singh sayin he neva beat him, huuumm this elusiv video will tell all. :?

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/challenge2.html (thats the link)

[Guest]

In that case.. uptej singh and nihang niddar singh both have ego... since in shastar vidiya match .. nobody is winner or loser...you dont get referee and judge to know that ...when the match is done... you know and your opponent knows only who needs more work in their vidiya.. they should hug each other and feel proud to be ladlaiz son of guru gobind singh ji ..but these days we get hatred against nihangs vs nihangs...complete bullocks... i ask both of em what will ur answer to guru gobind singh ji maharaj... he said only pick up sword and fight with oppression here those two singhs are hungry with each other's blood like demons...

good to see panth goin in the right direction :evil: :evil: :evil:

[panjabi]

i dont know much about nihungs i went through the site, i loved da warrior side of it, da only ting dat hurt me was da calling of shaheed singhs of 78 as "fanatics" dey died for tha panth when narkhdari baba stepped on sggs, how does that make anyone a fanatic?? shaheeds gave their jaans for summit they loved...and nindia of sikhs shudnt b done cos imagine ur like a person who wants to know sikhi den u see des divisions whats da hopefuls gonna think??? remember a lot of our youth and external people , imagine what it looks like 2 parties wearing dastaars ghatras both look teadional sikhs at each odas throats...

i think nihings and akj shud jus both accept der both existing due to guru sahibs kirpa, stay out of each others ways n call this whole friction ting a stalemate, n drop der differences... i dont eat meat, but if next nihung eats meat his gonna give his account if he drinks sukha hes gonna give his account for what he does and me for mine.. whats da point sittin here wasting our energies rucking each other??? ders no outcome

nihungs obviously have got a whole lot of martial heritage, phyche, correct reading of dasam, to offer to the sikhs , and akj have a lot of spirit, naam drir, pyar for sikhi too..

nihungs n taksaal dont have a prob nor do akj n taksaal.. so pher ki gul ah??

all i wud ask niddar singh ustad ji is to kindly take off his site the bit on bhai randir singh and the labelliong of shaheeds as fanatics..._/_ benti pravah...

i hope i havent offended any1 but internal pangeh at a time when dharm is goin down aint gud..even if u guys consider each other as dushmans i heard that guru gobind singh never had any gussa when he faced the people who tried to kill him but had total love for all even when he waved his sword there was no emotion of anger, shudnt we emulate our guru sahibs??

[Jassa]

Neo singh or n30 singh (soorrry dno which!)

i shouldnt have said about the videos.because neither have i been there when uptej singh has claimed to hav ebeen there or neither have i seen the video...ive only heard rumours and so its not reliable...

BUT i think that no singh should criticise another singh, especially for something so flimsy as his style of gatka!!

Gurbani says

nindhaa kar kar nuruk nivaasee anthar aathum jaapai ||

Translation: Slandering others, one lives in hell; within him is hazy darkness.

Pannaa: 1013 Line:2

its not going to get him anywhere!!

and the worst bit is his criticism of sant!!

to the person who made the website, and who typed out the words which criticised a sant this line is for you!!!

asaadhh rog oupajiaa su(n)th dhookhan dhaeh binaasee mehaa khaeiaa ||3||

Translation:You have contracted an incurable disease; slandering the Saints, your body is wasting away; you are utterly ruined.

its not good people!! lets pray that these people realise their gultiah and correct them!!

[Grewal]

No no no!!!!!!!!!! Ustad Nihang Nidhar Singh Ji is asking Uptej to duel not for ego!! But from what i gathered it is more like that Uptej Singh Ji has been teaching Gatka and criticizin the ShastarVidya style. Shastar Vidya is the style they used way back when. Uptej singh seems to have incorporated a more modern approach. Those who have seen the gatka displays will know that this style does not stand a chance to the Shastarvidya. The Singhs are wasting there time learning Gatka the dance routine. Shastarvidya is the real way of the warrior. Put it this way you may not agree with Nihang jis interpretation of Sikhi etc, but the fighting style is priceless. And dueling amongst each other in the right spirit can only further your martial strenght. Just like Everyday in this world we are challenged with decisions that test your Sikhi, which strenthen you. The diamonds of this world are only created in he hottest of fires.

[sukhsingh]

plz ppl, i do gatka, but in the real world, u arnt gonna use a sword, cause someone is gonna pull out a gun. soldiers are suppose to keep with the times, we should learn to use guns, knives, swords, and anyone other weapon.

but bani is the best weapon, if u r a good sikh, guru jee will help u

[Guest]

plz ppl, i do gatka, but in the real world, u arnt gonna use a sword, cause someone is gonna pull out a gun. soldiers are suppose to keep with the times, we should learn to use guns, knives, swords, and anyone other weapon.

but bani is the best weapon, if u r a good sikh, guru jee will help u

if that was a case veer... guru ji would have created rocket launchers and gave to us but no it was a sword .. sword of a khalsa.. worship the sword...sword is made to kills the enemies... only thing shaper than sword is gurbani power.. those two things are really closely related with each other which can not be replaced with guns and other weaponaries...

[Gurfateh Singh]

I completely agree with grewal here.. I think gatka is like a dance routine ..shastar vidiya is vidiya that can take up 15-25 yrs easily..and i also agree with the comment today gatka teachers are mixing up real sikh martial arts with forgein martial arts??????

isnt that consider to be nindiya of sikh martial art??? pure dis-respect.. not goin about gurus way of shastar vidiya and mixing up their forgein martial art with sikh martial art?????? and top of that cliaming that is real shastar vidiya...

excuse me but for nihangs their vidiya is more important than anything else... no wonder akj's gettin bashed right, left and center...

however i dont agree with doing nindiya of panth shaheeds.. they could be in akj but they have gained niskham state where they became matyr for sikhi panth now thats way too valuable than anything...like how panj pyareiz gave head for khalsa panth...

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

First time poster here...but watching this Internet Battle for quite a while.

I decided to find out something about Nihung Niddar Singh. SO I went to a source that had some experience with Gatka - Nanak Dev Singh Khalsa. What I found out from my e-mail to Nanak Dev Singh was quite interesting. Keep in mind that Nanak Dev Singh published a book on Gatka. His website is www.gatka.de .

He told me that once his students held a Gatka demonstration in England. Niddar Singh "crashed" the demonstration and instructed 6 of Nanak Dev Singh's students - armed with different weapons - to attack him. According to Nanak Dev Singh, Niddar Singh disarmed EACH student. So the students called Nanak Dev Singh and told him about this Niddar Singh. Nanak Dev Singh himself flew out to England and undertook training with Niddar Singh for five years.

Nanak Dev Singh goes on to say that he has deuled against people of many forms of martial arts (black belt levels) and has been able to beat them with the open handed techniques that Niddar Singh has on the website.

[ms514]

The issue of the shastarvidiya AND sarbloh website, however, extends beyond which is the martial art of the Sikhs. Let me note that whatever said below only applies to what I have read, and is analyzed to whatever knowledge I have. It does not reflect a generalization on the Nihungs, as I do not know if these websites are authorized by the Nihungs or not.

1)The point of the Brahma Vishnu and Shiva has been brought up and one of the sangat has stated that these are given as inspiration and not worship. If these three are to be seen as simply inspiration, then it is not made clear. In fact, the website is riddled with images of Vedic avatars and devas. Rather, the way it is portrayed, it seems that they are main objects of worship. The statement is made repeatedly that weapon worship is equivocal to Chandi worship. So to say that the website has no statements that devas and avatars are not worshipped seems at oddds with the blatant use of the pictures displayed on the website.

2)Respect for "Kshytria" Ancestory - Genetically speaking, there are very few Sikhs who had Kshytria ancestors. Most were of the lower castes. However, how one can be proud of Kshytria ancestory is odd. These same Kshytrias stood by and let the Mughals into India without putting up a fight. They even married off their daughters to the Mughals so their territories would not be harmed. The Hill Rajas (also Kshytrias) REFUSED to take amrit from Guru Gobind Singh because Guru Sahib would use the same bowl for the Kshytrias as he did for the Kshytrias, a fact that did not sit well with the Kshytrias. Kshytrias may have been a valiant people in ancient times, but that had mostly faded by Guru Sahib's time.

3)Chatka of Goats - much focus is given to this issue. The Rehat Maryada is quite clear in the matter. If one wants to eat meat, go ahead.

4)Anti-Singh Sabha Parchar - The website attempts to give the impression that the Singh Sabha Movement was British puppetry. However, it was the Singh Sabha Movement that slowly freed the Gurudwaras from Mahants, Mahants that practiced Hindu rituals of idol worship INSIDE Gurudwaras. Countless Singh Sabha people went to jail and fought to get the Sikh Institutions back in Sikh control.

It should be noted that the Singh Sabha movement had two parts - one was Singh Sahba Amritsar, which supported Snatani Sikhism and one was Singh Sabha Lahore, which supported the current Tat Sikhism. To give an impression of Amritsar Singh Sabha, here's a bit. One of the founders of that movement was Khem Singh Bedi. Himself being a Bedi, he considered himself a desendent of Guru Nanak, and was not adversed to having people bow down to him. That is one of the reasons that Prof. Gurmukh Singh (founder of Lahore Singh Sabha Movt.) split from Amritsar movement.

5) Anti AKJ Parchar - Suddenly, the site takes a sudden turn and attacks people of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. The site makes alligations that the AKJ are fraud gatka users and are trying to mimic Nihungs with dress. First, nowhere has the AKJ organization made a claim that it teaches Gatka. Its main aim is to do Kirtan, as the name implies. Some members do try to practice some form of martian arts, but they do not claim to be experts (I am not familiar with the claims of this Uptej Singh). Showing pictures of AKJ people doing Gatka and trying to make the connection that they are somehow perpetuating the image that they are Sikhs is weak at best.

What is "Nihung" bana? Some Sikhs, in their love for the Guru, copy the dress that they associate the Guru Sahib and his Sikhs used to wear. So what? Have the AKJ people put on this "Nihung" bana and made claims that they are Nihungs? Has the organization stated that it is a Gatka organization? The answer is clearly no. Nihung is not bana, Nihung is a SIKH who has trained in the ways of war.

The last thing to be adressed here is basically insult to a Sikh Shaheed, namely Bhai Fauja Singh. Bhai Fauja Singh lead a peaceful protest against the cult of Gurbachan. Gurbachan stated that he, being a Guru, would create the Sat Sitarae (a sick play on the concept of the Panj Pyare). This was an insult to the Sikh Panth. When the protest reached Gurbachan's headquarters, the cultists of Gurbachan fired with guns upon the protestors. The protestors tried to defend themselves as best as possible. Now, can someone tell me what is so "fanatic" about defending yourself?

6)Marijuana (Sukha) - If Sukha in indeed just a painkiller, then I gotta say, there are much more potent pain-killers out there. You got codeine, morphine, fentanyl, etc. But sukha has been ingrained into Nihung practice and it has taken on other meaning. Recent research shows that Marijuana slows the human reflexes and slows decision-making. How would this help on the battlefield is beyond me.

[ms514]

There are a lot of sites out there that say a lot of things about Sikhism. However, those who have taken amrit are first and foremost Sikhs, not AKJ or Nihung or anything else. Sikhs of the Guru. The Nihung values the art of combat...the AKJ people value doing Kirtan; the malaa of the Nihung is a tegh and shastar, the malaa of the AKJ people is the harmonium and tabla...but BOTH contemplate the other skill too. Behind both is Gurbani and Guru Sahib. Let us never forget that!

[Grewal]

Nice post above, and as for the modern times with guns etc. On the street Shastar vidya has plenty of techniques for close contact. Carrying a glock with you is not going to solve the problem. We had the resources of Guns back in the day. If the time came that Guns and ammo were neede to defend the faith or injustice then so be it. But as of today today i think we dont really need guns, depending on where you are from of course.

[tSingh]

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh

A response to some of the points posed above:

A crucial point here is that the Sikh youth must always question what people tell them! You must go and read a lot and speak to a lot of people who actually know what they are talking about. No point listening to what it's like to drive a Rolls Royce from someone who drives a Robin Reliant.

Sarbloh.info website is pretty water tight from what I have read. The reason being, is that they have gone directly to the sources themselves. There will always be variance among the individuals that make up a sampraday, but the general traditions are well presented.

One thing that is very clear from this discussion so far is that a lot of Sikh youth have a very rudimentry understanding of Snatan dharma. For example, the role and status with which devas and devis have within snatan dharm is complex to say the least. They work on many levels and are not simply 'Gods and Godesses'. In some ways they can be understood as representing attributes of God and this comes through in Japuji Sahib 'Guru Isar Guru Gorakh Guru Brahma Guru Parwati Mai'. In otherwords, the Guru is the snatan trinitiy of Brahma Vishnu and Shiva - creation, preservation and destruction - the cycle of life. The fact that Sarbloh info has pictures of these respective deities does not mean 'worhsip idols' as one poster has claimed, as much as other sites having paintings of Guru Nanak Dev do not claim 'worship him as an idol'.

Another poster suggested that there was clarity from the rehitnamae saying 'do not eat meat'. Not really. I recommend reading the original rehitnamae (for example 'Rehitnamae' by Piara Singh Padam). Some don't mention it, some wholeheartedly accept it (Prem Sumarag for example), some are hesitantly in favour (Desa Singh Rehitnama), although reserved.

As for anti-Singh Sabha prachar and anti-AKJ stance of these websites...this is a larger debate. Really, when it comes down to it, the Singh Sabha movement and the eventual formation of the SGPC and AKJ were simply a reconstruction of Sikhi.

One of the key objectives of this reform was to create a separate religious identity that could be easily pigeon-holed for the British. In otherwords, the Singh Sabha aimed at creating a Sikh orthodoxy, by pointing out and destroying Sikh heterodoxy. A clear-cut Sikhism, with one defined orthodoxy, would allow one organisational body to represent this faith (of only one correct interpretation - see SGPC rehit maryada) and liase with the British - i.e. the SGPC! What would they gain? The monetary and political power of every Gurudwara and political influence with the British. All they had to do was remove anything that could be contestable. The extremity of this mindset was Teja Singh Bhasaur, close friend of Bhai Randhir Singh. His group went as far as wishing to remove any other religious identity from Sikhi including the bhagat bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Modern day AKJ are a product of the Singh Sabha movement and uphold much of the Singh Sabha's mindset, although taken to an extreme, as a desire to create one strict orthodoxy of orthodoxies.

This redefining of Sikhi led to 'the baby being thrown out with the bath water'. The decline of the bangas, the rejection of much of Dasam bani, the death of the spiritual schools within Sikhi, the decline of Raag kirtan, the declining influence of sampraday, the decay of Sikhi's links with other traditions, most importantly the rejection of the multi-faceted Sikhi for one orthodoxy.

For Snatan Sikhs, history does not support the idea of one type of Sikh. Guru Gobind Singh never ensiaged this. Take for example the Nirmalae and Sewapanthis. Both began with Guru Gobind Singh ji's hukam, yet both were exempt from wearing shaster. They were still however part of the Khalsa. They represented different aspects of his Sikhs. The sewapanthis were those who were utterly humble, philanthropists and pascifists, who would rather give their head than take one (hence Bhai Khanaiyya's infamous episode in which a Sikh asked him what his sword was for, he said to give to his opponent to cut of his own head, when brought before Guruji, Guru Gobind Singh hugged him and said 'you truly are a Sikh of my father' and took away his sword). Does this mean Sewapanthis are not 'Sant-Sapai'? Again, no, in that by devoting your life to the upliftment of the people through charity, and by looking to the examples set by such greats as Bhai Jagta Sahib, it is clear that they were fueled by the same fearlessness and determination to protect and uplift the weak.

Equally the Nirmalae represented those Sikhs who were thirsting for jnaan, the scholars seeking spiritual knowledge. Again Guru ji created their panth.

A lot of what has been written about Snatan Sikhi so far has only suggested that this movement is Sikhi being taken back into Hinduism. Yet this is again a vast oversimplification. Sikhi from its inception looked beyond politico-religious identity - 'there is no Hindu there is no Muslim'. The fact that Snatan Sikhs were able to take inspiration from the Vedas, Upanishads, from the Quran, from Sufi texts, etc is testimony to the level of spiritual insight Sikhs had. We ourselves read the texts from other faiths when we go to the Gurdwara, in the form of Bhagat bani. There are scholars out there who are still arguing about the construct of 'Hinduism'. There is no Hinduism, only a group of religious traditions from the Indian subcontinent with similar concepts (much like the shared concepts of Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Everything falls within this snatan dharm, as it is the collective religiousness of humanity. If you look to the mystical writings of any faith you will find the same themes croping up, namely the universality of human religious experience and the realisation that God and creation are one and the same.

As for the claim that Snatan Sikhi is yet another attempt to divide Sikhs, again I would argue the opposite. Snatan sikhi is the only hope for Sikhi unifying as a unity of traditions.

There is lots to read about and much to learn. But its important not to get too lost in history. We must return to present and battle with our ego. The means to accomplishing this are varied and each has it's value. We should soak wisdom up like sponges not be closed and dead like stones.

I'll finish with a shabad from Hazrat Sai Hadi Bakhsh Miskeen from the Sindh-based Sufi Jahaniyan lineage, it should sound familiar:

'Neither the Hindu realised the Truth,

Nor did the Muslim.

Only they realised the Truth

Who went beyond both

Love made me go beyond religion

I am neither Hindu nor Muslim

Love of Beloved made me forget religion,

I have lost all awareness,

My mind is fixed on Naam only

I crossed the barriers of finite,

went and saw the difficult plane

What do the folks know about love?

The religion of love is unique,

It is egoless, supreme and free from doubts,

and is absorption in ecstacy for ever.

Raise the slogan of Truth, O Miskeen

Suceed in love of the Beloved

You are bestowed with the boon of love'

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

First, let us deal with this Teja Singh Bhasaur, aka. Babu Teja Singh. The entire story is that Teja Singh started a Sikh revivalist movement. Bhai Randhir Singh actually took amrit from this group. Note that Teja Singh had NOT started his manmat yet about eliminating Bhagat Bani. among other things. So he and Bhai Randhir Singh were close. Key word: Were. When Bhai Randhir Singh learned that Babu Teja Singh had been excommunicated for his anti-Bhagat Bani parchar, he wrote a letter to Babu Teja Singh saying that he REFUSED to meet Teja Singh until he apologized at the Akal Thakat and was reinstated into the Sikh Panth.

Now the point was made that the Singh Sabha Movement (Lahore) was a convenient British organization that was used to "destroy" ancient Sikhism. And what gains did the old SGPC and Akalis get (I use the word old specifically - the olden SGPC and Akalis had the intent to revitalize Sikhism. Any attempts to make a parallel between the Akalis/SGPC of then and now is like comparing day and night). The Singh Sabha Movement Lahore gave countless of its members to jails and beatings at the hands of the British government. The Randhir Singh that the site tries to portray as a British agent spent decades in hard and tortorous jail capitivity of the British. And that is not to talk of the literary battles that the Singh Sabha Lahore was fighting against rampant Christian missionaries, Arya Samaj followers and Sikh movements gone awry, such as the Nirankaris and the Naamdharis. And don't forget those who died trying to free Gurudwaras from those Mahants. How about the Independence of India? Akalis fought pretty hard and sacrificed a lot to kick the British out of India (they at the time thought this would mean that Sikhs would be free…). Why was not Master Britain not able to keep its Singh Sabha slave happy?

Now onto the brunt of Sanatan Sikhism: That Sikhism has these sections, of which certain sections did not get Amrit from Guru Sahib. The above poster mentions Bhai Desa Singh. Let us see what Puratan Rehitnama of Bhai Desa Singh says about Amrit and Sikhism (forgive my translation skills, I am not a Punjabi Master):

"Rehat Bina Na Sikh Kahavae. Rehat Bina Dar Chota Khavae. Rehat Bina Sukh Kabhu Na Lahe." - Without Rehat one cannot call themself a Sikh. Without Rehat, one suffers injuries. Without Rehat one never attains happiness.

"Pratham Rehat Yeh Jaan, Khandae Ki Pahal Chakae. Soe Singh Pardhan. " - First know this Rehat - to take Amrit of Khandae Di Pahal. So is a Sikh created.

-Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh.

Or how about this quote, from one Bhai Sukha Singh of Krit Gurbilas Patshahi 10:

"Bina Shastar Kesan Naran Beddh Jano, Gahe Kaan Ta Ko Kitay Lay Sidhano". Ihahe Mor Agya Suno Hae Pyare, Bina Teg Kesan Divo Na Didarae" - Without Weapons and Keshas, know one to be a cowardly goat, which can be grabbed by the ear and led anywhere. Listen to my advice, my beloved – without a sword and keshas, I (10th Guru Sahib) shall not grant you my company.

The Rehatnamas above clearly state that one must be take amrit AND be with a sword to be a Sikh. One must ask themselves, would Guru Sahib want any of his Sikhs to live miserable lives as cowardly goats by withholding amrit from any who wished to be a Sikh? I would think not! The 10th Guru Sahib is even noted as stating, “Rehat Pyari Mujhko, Sikh Pyara Nahin†– That those who followed the Rehat were the Guru’s Beloved, not those who merely called themselves Sikhs.

And now for a question for those knowledgeable in Sanatani tradition. Either the website Shastarvidiya or Sarbloh mentioned that Nihungs freely marry Hindus and see it as perfectly normal and compatible thing. Now, Sanatani Sikhism, being above all religious distinctions…would it allow a Nihung to marry a Muslim?

Thanks to the sangat for their time and patience.

[tSingh]

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh

The one thing I'm not trying to do is get into an argument (as ridiculous as that sounds!), merely present another angle on this issue.

On the issue of Teja Singh Bhasour, agreed, Bhai Randhir Singh is very clear in his autobiography that he refuses to meet with him after Bhasaur was excommunicated from the panth. However, that is missing the point that Bhai Randhir Singh was greatly influenced by Teja Singh Bhasaur's mindset and approach to Sikhi that was always radical.

Again, you have slightly missed the point with my comments about the Singh Sabha. Firstly, about how they were anti-British during the independance movement. Of course they were, but that doesn't negate the fact that they were created much earlier with the aim of representing Sikhs and Sikh interests to the Colonial regime in British India. I am neither comparing the SGPC/Akalis of old and modern in terms of their political behaviour, but on their ideologies. As for the Nirankaris and Naamdharis, well the Singh Sabha movement was an extension of those reform movements in the first place. Both started as reform groups. For example, Nirankaris are acredited with introducing (or reinstating) the Anand marriage ceremony (remember that as far as Nirankaris are concerned the Nirankaris that caused the hoo haa in 1978 were 'Sant Nirankaris', an unrepresentative group from the larger body of Nirankaris - see the work of Dr. Man Singh Nirankari).

On the issue of rehitnamae. This is a whopper of an issue, mainly becuase there are loads of them and they don't always agree, yet most claim they are the words of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. The way the SGPC and Taksal for instance have got around this issue is to have taken a pick'n'mix attitude, selecting the bits that sound about right from numerous original rehitnamae to create a new one. For example, if you put so much authority on Desa Singh's rehitnama as you have quoted above, then you must also accept his tentative acceptance of eating goat! (See verse 105 - he rejects killing the goat in the langar itself but states that if you want meat, kill it away from the langar and eat it where it was killed)

Other Snatan groups have their own rehit - the Nirmalae have their own rehitnama called Sudharm Marg Granth, equally in Sant Rattan Mala the Sewapanthis have a form of rehit stated for them.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

JT Singh Sahib, I hat to say it, but this is the debate forum. It was meant for (polite) arguements.

Teja Singh has been explained. To make this connection that Bhai Randhir Singh was a mindless zombie of Teja Singh is moot. There ARE people who were on the path of Sikhism and fell off it, and Teja Singh was one of them. Once he fell from grace, Bhai Randhir Singh did not associate with him.

"...they (SGPC/Singh Sabha Lahore) were created much earlier with the aim of representing Sikhs and Sikh interests to the Colonial regime in British India." The objectives of the Singh Sabha were to re-vitalize Sikhism into its origional form. It started out as a religious movement. As time went on, the organization gained favor among the Sikhs, THEN the organization did present greviences and problems that the Sikh community had to the British. They were a mouthpiece of Sikh greviences to the British, not their hand-maidens.

Naamdhari and Nirankari movements and the Singh Sabha Movements have only one thing in common - that they tried to re-ignite Sikhism. All resemblance stops there.

The current Rehat Maryada is not some weekend project that was undertaken by the SGPC of then. They invited the top Sikh scholars and prominent Sikh figures of the time to evaluate 100+ Rehitnamas. Each Rehitnama was compared to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib. Whatever was in line with Guru Sahib's teachings were kept. Those which were not were disposed of. This draft was sent overseas (in an era with no airplanes) to get the approval of abroad Sikhs. After 11 years of deliberation, the Rehit Maryada was passed, and was passed at the Guru Panth level. To say that the SGPC just took a pick-axe at it is a grave injustice to the time and effort that it took to make the Rehit.

[Gurfateh Singh]

here is some of the propagand stuff from shastar vidiya.. ( Bold Letters are taken from the site)

This is from the following link:

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/misappropriation3.html

“Bhai Randhir Singh (founder of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha (A.K.J.) in the early 1930s), even began to dress up as Akali Nihangs. These individuals initiated new Khalsa in their own self-concocted and delusioned manner.”

If this isn’t Nindya then what is?

“The S.G.P.C., then taking control of the traditional religious high office of Budha Dal Jathedar, the Akal Takht, drove the Akali Nihangs of Budha Dal out of Akal Takht with the aid of the British.”

So now these NANGS are also doing Nindya of the Singhs who freed the Gurdwaras from the Mahants. Looks like you are a supporter of these Nangs who are supporters of the Mahants.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is form the following link:

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/misappropriation6.html

“Their form of Gatka is historically bogus as are their historical Khalsa traditions. It was only in the late 1970’s that one fanatic soul amongst them, known as Fauja Singh, who claimed that in his previous life he was a soldier in the Misl (confederacy) of Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh (a great Nihang warrior of past), dressing up as a Nihang set himself up as Gatka Ustad (master).”

“Claimed to have met Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh Ji Shaheed in a 'vision'. He then used this to recruit people into his movement during the early 1980's using Gatka as a tool to gain support”

“Fauja Singh, caring little for actual historical integrity or combat effectiveness of his art, aimed through the showmanship martial display of Gatka to awaken the then Sikh youth from its slumber of indifference with regards to what he saw as the “sad plight of then Sikhism”. Fauja Singh strongly felt, like all Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia brainwashed Sikhs that in all modern India, Khalsa Sikhism was in great danger of being over whelmed or become part of the all-absorbing Hindu faith. “

"In 1978 in Amritsar at the age of 42, Fauja Singh was shot dead whilst trying to decapitate with a sword the leader of a Sikh schismatic sect known as the 'Nirankaris' whilst he was on a stage performing a speech. "

Are you guys are so deluded by that fancy webpage that you did not even see all this Nindya of one of the greatest Shaheeds during the 20th century?

“On Fauja Singh’s death, his supporters declared him a martyr, and in time, from amongst his supporters arose the extremist Sikh militant-come-terrorist group, the Babber Khalsa International (B.K.I.), who claimed to be fighting for a Sikh independent state known as ‘Khalistan’ from India.

"At present, the Babbar Khalsa International (along with other Sikh militant movements) have been banned in the Western world since the Al-Q’aeda attack on the Twin Towers in New York.

As the Khalistani movement spread in the mid to late 1980’s amongst the Sikh Diaspora, so did the influence of the A.K.J. The majority of Gatka Akhara’s in the western Sikh Diaspora in England, Canada etc. at present are linked one way or other to the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. “

So now these Nangs who were so scared of the Indian Government now have guts to do Nindya of Shaheed Babbars who did have the courage to face the fascist Indian Government. Its surprising that you would support these Nangs who do Nindya of Shaheeds.

------------------------------------------------------

This is from the following link

http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/misappropriation7.html

“5. Belief the Akali blue uniform is, ‘Shiv Sroop’ (ie. the very form of Shiva)”

So now they want to look like the Hindu God Shiva!!… and even call the Gurmukhi Bana as ‘Shiv Sroop’….

Shiva is insignificant as far as Sikhism is concerned then why are you supporting these Nangs who want to look like Shiva?

“Shivji Maharaj

An old painting depicting Shivji, the Destroyer, preparing 'Sukka' (a cannabis-based tonic that is also the favourite drink of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa. Shivji is also a source of inspiration to all Indian warrior races”

These Nangs also look are Shivjee as a source of there warrior inspirations. A true Sikh would look towards Guru Gobind Singh jee for Inspiration and not a Hindu God. Now what kind of a Gursikh are you for supporting these Nangs who look towards Hindu Gods as a source of inspiration?

Furthere more look are the following statement made by your mentors these Nangs… in support of them being brahmanists:

“10. Acknowledgement of and full respect to the Khalsa Panths, Hindu Kyshatriya (Indian warrior) ancestors such as Siri Ramachander, Krishan Maharaj, origins, heritage and past”

“11. Though Akali Nihangs do not speak of themselves as ‘Hindu’, they do see themselves of the Hindu Indian nation. For example, at Sach Khand Hazoor Sahib, Nander, like all Hazoori Sikhs, Nihangs will freely intermarry with Hindus”

These are the kinds of people you are supporting. They are a part of the Hindu nation. There AKJ bashing blinded you much that you did not even read what they are all about.

“12. Akali Nihangs, apart from tobacco, do not consider any other drug ‘Kureht’ (taboo). They only consider them as possible ‘Ebh’ (vices) if abused. Drugs were and still are traditionally used on battlefield as painkillers”

And this is how they justify their use of drugs:

“13. Akali Nihangs have a non-puritanical paradoxical, highly flexible and adaptable practical outlook on life.“

All you nihangs out there, I really don’t understand how you in your right mind can be a fan of these Nangs of shastar vidiya site. Basically there AKJ bashing has blinded you from the truth of what these Nangs really are. They are the true Nangs, they do Nindya of Gursikhs, Shaheeds, Panthic organizations all of whom are recognized and honoured by the entire Sikh Jagat. So its your choice whether you want to side with the Sikh Jagat or with these Nangs who are a part of the Hindu Nation...

[Narsingha]

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

GurFateh Singh Khalsa, thank you for those quotes from the website (and highlighting them for clarity).

Firstly, a humble request....

Can you provide EVIDENCE (historical or scriptural) with regards to what has been said about:

a) Bhai Fauja Singh

Bhai Randhir Singh and his followers

c) AKJ

d) Babbar Khalsa

..is INCORRECT as you claim?

Pointing out historical TRUTHS and FACTS about any one person or individual is not "Nindiya" as you claim. Nindiya is baseless rumour and insults based on ego. However, what has been mentioned on the websites is the Truth. If you do not wish to accept these truths, then that is your wish, but it does you or anyone little credit to simply ignore them or end up insulting those who do not conform to your views.

Are you caught up in such a high degree of hero-worship that truth does not seem to register?

With regards to Shivji. You say that Shiva is "insignificant" with regards to Sikhism, yet why does Guru Maharaj refer to Shivji (and the trinity) as followers of Akaal Purakh within Adi Guru Durbar and Dasam Guru Durbar and Sarbloh Guru Durbar? I assume therefore that references to names such as "Mahakaal", "Mahesh", "Rudra" that arise in Gurbaani, and in most cases refer directly to Shivji would also seem "insignificant" to you. Needless to say you reveal your own ignorance with regards to Gurbaani.

Is there anything wrong with regarding Shivji, or anyone else as a source of inspiration if they are worthy of respect because of their warrior prowess?

For example, why would Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji write 4 ballads devoted to Chandi (Durga) within hiw works if Chandi? Will you also regard Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji as a admin cut for writing Chandi Charitra? Or writing Krishan Avtaar to reveal the warrior prowess of Krishan Maharaj? Indeed, the great warrior Guru also wrote many other works that inspire his Khalsa that have their basis in folklore and other tales...even Soni Mehiwal.

If you do not acknowledge Krishan Maharaj (for example) as worthy of respect, then why do you read Gurbaani that arises from Krishan Avtar within Dasam Guru Durbar as part of Rehras Sahib? Why do you read Ardas which arises from Chandi Di Vaar (a ballad revealing the warrior prowess of Chandi). Indeed, Japji Sahib itself mentions Raam....another diety. Do you then consider Akali Guru Nanak Devji as a admin cut too?

I can point out the verses if you wish, but I assume that you are already aware which ones I am referring to.

We state on the website that we RESPECT these dieties, but do not worship them.

Incidentally, could you point out where the word "HINDU" is mentioned within the following texts:

Gita

Ramayan

Mahabharat

4 Vedas

18 Puraans

Shastars

Upanishaads

...if you find the word "HINDU" in them, please let me know.

Once again, please provide evidence for your claims. Subjective opinions based upon your personal feelings do not carry much weight, no matter how passionate they may be.

Akaal hee Akaal

www.sarbloh.info

www.shastarvidiya.org

[Gurfateh Singh]

You are in no moral position to question Bhai Fauja Singh Jee’s claim. Bhai Fouja Singh was a very Naam Abhyasee Singh who lived and died for Sikhism. Maybe he was a Singh in Baba Deep Singh Jee’s Jatha and became a Shaheed, what is wrong with that. Bhai Fauja Singh Jee’s jeevan was certainly that of a Singh from that time period. His Shaheedi is honoured by all Jathebandis and eminent Sikhs of that time including Sant Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindrawalay. The akal Takht, all factions of Akali Dal, sikh Jathabandis such as Taksal, AKJ, etc… all hold his Shaheedi in high regard. Then who are you to question Bhai Fauja Singh jee Jeevan, which is respected and has inspired so many?

You never cease to amaze me… well lets examine the disrespectful things they have said about the Babbars who gave so many Shaheedis for the Khalsa Panth. First of all, they refer to the Babbars as ‘Terrorist group’, then they for no reason at all mention ‘Al Qaida’ some how trying to link the Babbbars to the terrorist group ‘Al Qaida’. Are you so gullible as to not even see this?

Yes, the blue colour is based on the Khalsa. This is the traditional colour of the Khalsa Sroop of a Sikh warrior. But these NANGS give a Brahmanist twist to this concept and they say that it is Shiv Sroop, can you not even see this? Unless of course… that is if you agree with them that this is ‘Shiv Sroop’.

[Gurfateh Singh]

you say hindu is not mention in their holy book well you are the one who claimed so called hindu nation in ur site.

we are not dumb to see the parrallesim there. you guys do nindiya of bhai fauja singh yet you guys respect for narakdharis.

[Narsingha]

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

I think you missed the point. W

e are not questioning whether Bhai Fauja Singh gave "Shaheedi" or not, that is for Akaal Purakh to know. Who is a Shaheed and who isnt is for Akaal Purakh to decide, as only the ALmighty knows what a person's actions are truly like. What we question is his stance on Gatka, and his use of it to lure people into his movement. These is the fact as proven by his actions.

Secondly, the actions of the Babbar Khalsa International are evidently those of terrorists. It is simply political correctness amongst Sikhs that prevents them from speaking the truth and being direct about it. If blowing up a plane full of innocent people (including Sikhs) is the sign of warriors, then what is the difference between a warrior and a terrorist?

For more information, please visit Amnesty International, a well recognised human-rights organisation and even the United Nations. Amnesty and the UN are one amongst many that have BKI on their list of terrorist groups. Should you wish to dispute this, take it up with the them. I await to hear of your campaign against these groups in the near future.

Once again, it seems you provide NO EVIDENCE to counteract the claims on the website but push personal views across hoping people will sympathise with you. In addition it seems that you have misunderstood (maybe on purpose) the information given on the website and wish to simply fight a case based on subjective views.

Good luck in convincing people that what you say has any substance, I'm sure there will be some who will agree with your views. We do not seek to emotionally blackmail people into thinking we are correct, we provide historical facts and quotes from scriptures and leave the decision to be made by the individuals themselves as to what is right or wrong.

To those who seek MORE than just opinion, then they will be harder to persuade by people such as yourself who simply base their discussions on personal views and emotional outbursts such as those you have mentioned.

I still await your response to my previous post asking for proof regarding the AKJ, Bhai randhir Singh, BKI and Bhai Fauja Singh.

To end, please do not expect a response unless you wish to provide concrete evidence to back up your claims (and it would help if you actually read the website rather than come to your conclusions based on your own skewed perspective). Do not consider this ego, but a search for the Truth....if you can prove (with evidence from historical references and scriptures) that we are incorrect, then there can be dialogue.

[Guest]

Secondly, the actions of the Babbar Khalsa International are evidently those of terrorists. It is simply political correctness amongst Sikhs that prevents them from speaking the truth and being direct about it. If blowing up a plane full of innocent people (including Sikhs) is the sign of warriors, then what is the difference between a warrior and a terrorist?

u continue to say "back up your claims".... the courts have not even been able to sentence these people - so how can u say that they blew up the planes??? :roll: :roll:

[Narsingha]

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

The fact that the BKI and AKJ have "severed" links with the individual(s) responsible in order to save their own skin leaves much to be questioned. The fact that the individual responsible was already in jail for a a number of years also seems to escape the attention of people.

That is simply ONE act amongst many mindless ones that differentiates a terrorist from a warrior.

(In case you wish to bring up 1984, this too will be answered on www.nihang.com)

Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but, the fact remains, that as yet we have not had any evidence presented that what has been mentioned on the website is not true. (It seems this point repeatedly seems to be escaping everyone who is trying to attack the website and instead wish to take the discussion to a more subjective and emotional one).

If you do not agree with the website, please exercise your freedom and dont visit it. If you wish to debunk or discredit it, at least ensure what you do is backed up with evidence from historical/scriptural sources.

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

I think you missed the point. W

e are not questioning whether Bhai Fauja Singh gave "Shaheedi" or not, that is for Akaal Purakh to know. Who is a Shaheed and who isnt is for Akaal Purakh to decide, as only the ALmighty knows what a person's actions are truly like. What we question is his stance on Gatka, and his use of it to lure people into his movement. These is the fact as proven by his actions.

I disagree no point was missed the point is in fact very clear unlike your statement above, by using your measure to decide whether someone is a shaheed or not would mean that no one could ever be classified as such. Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Manni Singh even Guru Teg Bahadur ji could not be classed as a shaheed according to your reasoning! Of course it is Akaal Purakh that is the ultimate judge of all our actions but to adopt this stance in order to negate recognising someone as shaheed is just another example of your consistent and unconstructive deflection of all questions. Before you reply to this point No doubt you will want "historical facts and quotes from scriptures" another deflecting tactic which is being used by yourself to the point of being tedious. If that is the case then answer me this could any mortal possess any such historical or scriptural evidence from Akaal purakh Waheguru to validate anyone's Shaheedi? Or is it simply a matter of whom you consider worthy or not? As far as using such a loaded term as 'luring', the insinuation is that he attracted people under false pretences, is this a matter of opinion? Or do you have evidence?

Secondly, the actions of the Babbar Khalsa International are evidently those of terrorists. It is simply political correctness amongst Sikhs that prevents them from speaking the truth and being direct about it. If blowing up a plane full of innocent people (including Sikhs) is the sign of warriors, then what is the difference between a warrior and a terrorist?

Again conjecture on your part you do not know who was responsible for that attack although the evidence thus far and on the balance of reasoning points not at the organisation above but the (GOI). Firstly ask yourself this how could the Sikhs possibly benefit? Secondly how beneficial was it to india?You cite political correctness as the reasoning that in your words "prevents them from speaking the truth and being direct about it" again that is nothing more than your opinion, firstly as to why or if Sikhs are not speaking the truth and secondly it is only your assumption as to what the truth (there supposedly avoiding speaking about) is.

For more information, please visit Amnesty International, a well recognised human-rights organisation and even the United Nations. Amnesty and the UN are one amongst many that have BKI on their list of terrorist groups. Should you wish to dispute this, take it up with the them. I await to hear of your campaign against these groups in the near future.

The UN and AI as well as the UK government have made their decision based on information from the (GOI) so that is naturally very accurate and impartial !! Strangely enough no neo-fascist hindu organisations of which there are many and whom have recently been the subject of a channel 4 documentary have been so categorised by the (GOI). Incidentally the documentary followed fund raising in the UK being directed to groups in Gujarat that have been implicated in the Muslim pogroms in the state.

Once again, it seems you provide NO EVIDENCE to counteract the claims on the website but push personal views across hoping people will sympathise with you. In addition it seems that you have misunderstood (maybe on purpose) the information given on the website and wish to simply fight a case based on subjective views.

The evidence used by Veerji were the quotes taken from your own website! You seem unable to realise that any criticism that I or any other Sikhs have made, is based almost without exception entirely on the information that you have pushed into the public domain yourselves. I assume that you are not known personally to anyone on this forum. It is not you that is objectionable but the 'information' you provide and the label's that you use. As far as fighting a case based on subjective views is concerned we are yet again looking at your now 'standard' reply. That anyone else's opinion is subjective whereas any comment made by yourself is entirely objective. This is not the case in any way, shape or form.Your own postings reveal bias, personal opinions and emotive responses much the same as any other.

Good luck in convincing people that what you say has any substance, I'm sure there will be some who will agree with your views. We do not seek to emotionally blackmail people into thinking we are correct, we provide historical facts and quotes from scriptures and leave the decision to be made by the individuals themselves as to what is right or wrong.

Veerji will not be requiring luck since he has right on his side, is this my opinion? Yes, but Im not afraid to say it is, or mislead by saying it is a statement of fact. Yet again we hear " we provide historical facts and quotes from scriptures" not for a great deal of what you say you don't

and that for which you do is often a question of interpretation and context. As far as the historical references many of your comments could have been taken from the 'Indian government history book of half truth's and misrepresentation'.

To those who seek MORE than just opinion, then they will be harder to persuade by people such as yourself who simply base their discussions on personal views and emotional outbursts such as those you have mentioned.

Again I would ask you to look at oneself before pointing the finger. Another request would be to have the courtesy to read the post or the good sense to comprehend it. The discussion which led to your reply was begun by Veerji with a number of quotes taken directly from your site they were presented and then he commented on them. So he does not qualify as one of the people who"..simply base their discussions on personal views and emotional outbursts such as those you have mentioned." as you contend.

I still await your response to my previous post asking for proof regarding the AKJ, Bhai randhir Singh, BKI and Bhai Fauja Singh.

N/A.

To end, please do not expect a response unless you wish to provide concrete evidence to back up your claims (and it would help if you actually read the website rather than come to your conclusions based on your own skewed perspective). Do not consider this ego, but a search for the Truth....if you can prove (with evidence from historical references and scriptures) that we are incorrect, then there can be dialogue.

You have in one of your posts likened yourself to a broken record, your words not mine and I would agree that this analogy is a fairly accurate one. I still have the now 'standard' response that you sent to me, it differs very little from this one. By the way you never replied to my retort. I suppose you would direct me to your 'standard' response anyway.

"do not expect a response unless you wish to provide concrete evidence to back up your claims (and it would help if you actually read the website rather than come to your conclusions based on your own skewed perspective)"

The concrete evidence was of your own making it was lifted from your site, as to your accusation of Veerji not reading the site we are again only discussing your opinion. Someone reads your site and has objections your conclusion is that they never actually read the site in the first place!!

To extrapolate that then, if someone reads your site and has no objections they are thought to have in your opinion 'read' the site.

The implication being then that if you have objections you must continue to read the site until you do not, only then will you have 'read' the site !!

What a novel approach I shall apply this method to the KKK site and who knows I might find myself agreeing with white supremacists.

Gur Fateh

_______________

Dont fight with fools, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

For fools read (those that don't agree with me.)

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

The fact that the BKI and AKJ have "severed" links with the individual(s) responsible in order to save their own skin leaves much to be questioned. The fact that the individual responsible was already in jail for a a number of years also seems to escape the attention of people.

Does it leave a lot to be questioned? Sounds suspiciously like your opinion. You go on to say " In order to save their own skins." Do you have evidence of this? Or is it again supposition on your part?

That is simply ONE act amongst many mindless ones that differentiates a terrorist from a warrior.

Whoever was responsible for this 'act' is still debatable so you are in fact drawing your own conclusions, what many 'acts' are you referring too? And with reference to these 'acts' do you have evidence as to the responsible parties?

You see the 'yardstick' that you apply swings both way, it is a obstructive and unconstructive method of debate and should only be used if one can apply it equally to oneself.

(In case you wish to bring up 1984, this too will be answered on www.nihang.com)

Assuming that your upcoming site contains the same amount of generalisation's, distortions half truths and old indian propaganda as your previous efforts, I cannot say that I wait with baited breath

Apologies for sounding like a broken record, but, the fact remains, that as yet we have not had any evidence presented that what has been mentioned on the website is not true. (It seems this point repeatedly seems to be escaping everyone who is trying to attack the website and instead wish to take the discussion to a more subjective and emotional one).

Any evidence or opinion that is expressed that is contrary to your own is immediately denounced as 'subjective' you have a great fondness for the word but perhaps you should apply it to many of the comments on your site that are in reality nothing more.

If you do not agree with the website, please exercise your freedom and dont visit it. If you wish to debunk or discredit it, at least ensure what you do is backed up with evidence from historical/scriptural sources.

Whether I can 'choose' to visit your site or not is no longer relevant. We must act as a collective to challenge at every turn, any and all that discredit or harm the SIKH NATION. Furthermore It is imperative that we raise awareness as to the existence of covert propaganda something that has long been the forte of the (GOI). The use of (GOI) propaganda and misinformation in books, film and television is very well known and accepted so why are we surprised by their use of the 'Web'?

In many ways it is, for their purposes, a far superior medium in that it appears completely anonymously. Posters can be invented as can site hosts so that we never really know who or what is controlling a particular site. Add to that the posts of 'genuine' posters and the appearance is one of impartiality and transparency. Their are a lot of kids out there who are having their minds and their beliefs played with at this time, it is that which concerns me most.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

_________________