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Looked at the shastarvaidya website today and sent them a mail just wanted to post it on here because I had never heard of the site until I saw it mentioned on here....ALL I WANT TO SAY IS KEEP YOUR MINDS OPEN, BUT DON'T CLOSE YOUR EYES!

Website creators,

Have looked at your website and some things are very questionable, whatever

your intentions maybe you are further muddying the waters for those who are

simply trying to learn more about their faith.

You talk of the truth yet you hide more than you reveal.

No group or part is more important than the whole. You talk of Udasis and

Nirmalas, Nihangs etc. This simply pushes us back into a system of castes

where some are considered warriors, intellectuals etc. The point is that all

beings have the capacity to be all of these, is this not the reasoning that

inspired the creation of the Khalsa?

Of course the Nihangs are, have been and continue to be a integral part of

the Sikh nation and the present situation with regards to the SGPC is not a

good one but your effort is misplaced. The greatest threat that the Sikh

nation as a whole faces at the moment is the complete absorption into

Hinduism (read as a faith or the modern indian state) It does not take

prophetic abilities to see the inevitable destination of the

'saffronisation' of india.

Sikhism is a universal faith it cannot be held to be only specific to one

geographic area.

You refer many times to hindu mythology and its place within Sri Dasam

Granth Sahib serving only to further the ends of those who simply wish to

resign Sikh's to a sect of Hindus. You write that it is the truth but you

deny the greater and greatest truth's of our faith firstly that there is but

one immortal formless God, secondly as Sikhs we accept the Guru Granth Sahib

as our living Guru as declared by the tenth Nanak. You heretically refer at

one point to the Guru Granth Sahib as simply a spiritual text going on to

imply that this is it's short coming!! Further that the Sri Dasam granth

helps us in the real world, this again is not the truth.

Should we not accept the command of our Guru that after him Sri Guru Granth

Sahib alone is our Guru and means of our salvation then we are not Sikhs.

Guru Gobind Singh was a prolific writer and as you will be aware many of his

texts have been lost to us forever but he did not bestow Guruship to any

other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib and to denigrate it is apostasy.

Your intentions become more suspect when you refer to the Khalistani

movement as a 'terrorist movement' in its entirety. To even talk in terms of

'Khalistani terrorism' reveals you to be 'stooges' either in ignorance or by

design. The situation that has developed with regard to the Sikh nation

following the creation of an entirely artificial indian nation state is a

very complex one that reveals indian state terrorism levied against the Sikh

nation in many forms. The cyber revolution and its capacity as a medium to

either inform in order to strengthen or misinform to further weaken the

Sikh's is something that has not been lost on the (GOI).

You talk of the British Raj and its negative impact's on the traditions of

Sikhism. Yes but the British in many ways served to place the Sikhs on the

international platform, they were inspired by self interest of that there

is no doubt. But the recognition of Sikhs as worldclass soldiers, brave and

unyielding as a result of their actions in the world wars is something

which obviously would not have been the case had it not been for the raj.

Contrast that to the (GOI) record of defamation at every turn of the Sikhs

as terrorists, criminals etc.etc. this process continues unabated just take

a look at any 'bollywood' movie and you will see a Sikhs portrayed as

impotent, comedic character's lacking courage,integrity or intelligence. No

one can say the Raj was a good thing on the contrary the Sikhs lost their

sovereignty to a huge social experiment namely the nation state of india.

Meat eating is something I do not find offensive in the least again it is

simply divisive in further fragmentation. Look at any website and you will

see the question "can Sikhs eat meat" invariably posted by someone who has

very obviously their own agenda. (Just look at the list of other questions

in their post history, you will find "are Sikhs hindus?", "why do Sikhs hate

hindus?" etc.)

I have always felt it is of little importance in Sikhism whether someone

chooses to eat meat or not other than it should not be ritually killed

(chatka is not ritual killing it is simply the most effective and humane

system of slaughter) On that point do you agree that Sikhs should hold no

qualms about eating beef?

Further why is your opening shot on the site one of the severed head of a

billy? Rather a cheap way to court controversy don't you think?

I think the final pointer as to your conception and thus your intention is

the reference to the Nirankaris as a schismatic sect of Sikhs.

They are not a sect, of Sikhs or otherwise they are a political creation

whose design was to provoke a response from the Sikh community in order to

further political ends. You call yourselves Nihangs but you refer to those

who openly defiled the Sikh Guru as a 'schismatic sect' ????

As a summary you talk of Sikhs and Hindus in the same breath, you

continually and incorrectly limit Sikhism and thus Sikhs as indian, you talk

of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee as a wholly spiritual text, you refer to the

movement for Sikh autonomy as a entirely terrorist movement, you talk of and

propagate the idea of various castes of Sikhs, you refer to the naraktharis

as a sect of Sikhism, you belittle the shaheed's of 1978 as simply a

catalyst for the 'terrorist' movement, you refer to the British Raj and its

impact on Sikhism but you speak nothing of the plight of the Sikhs since

'independence' or at this time within india.

Set against the truth of pure steel you seem thinly veiled.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Sukhbir Singh

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yeh ive seen that site - and personally i was very confused - i dont know much about nihangs and their way of living

im glad u sent them that email - could u please post their reply if/when u get one

thanks allot :D

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Hi let me first of all state that i am not yet fully convinced of all the www.shastarvidiya.org and www.sarbloh.info sites have to say tho i do beleive they do raise some very valid points about Sikhi with the shastarvidiya site my main beef is with the language rather than the message.

Im a commited "liberal" and prefer to make up my own mind about stuff rather than have it disctated to me - ok theres all by agendas listed and ,ade clear let me reply to ur post Sukhbir.

Its a well written and convincing post tho i do have several reservations about some of the stuff u have said.

The first thing i have a problem with is

The greatest threat that the Sikh nation as a whole faces at the moment is the complete absorption into

Hinduism (read as a faith or the modern indian state) It does not take

prophetic abilities to see the inevitable destination of the

'saffronisation' of india.

That doesnt come anywhere near being the biggest threat IMHO - as a British Asian youth i know the biggest threat to which we have almost lost the battle to is ignorance,

Speaking as a 24 year old I feel my parents generation sold my generation down the river in terms of educating the youth about there religion and placing a heavier emphasis on being punjabi than they did on being Sikh.

Im one of the lucky few whose parents are amritdhari and whose parents made a conscience decidion to teach me about the faith i was born into. However how many of my frinds and comtemporys can say the same ??

Being Sikh is a lot more than wearing a badge taking amrit and patting urself on the back about how good u r - thasts the best case scenario it seems sometimes.

The worst case scenario is the importance of being a Sikh cos ur a Jatt u can drink like an irishman and ur better than those "extermist hundus" and "fanatic muslims"

The meaning of Sikhi is being wattered down to nothing more than empty symbols and rudebwoys kicking off about "them converting our women"

Sikhi is in much greater threat from our own swwiming love affair with ignorance than it is to any vague nebulous external force "safronising us"

"As long as the Khalsa remain distinct and intact, I shall bless them in every way; When they detract from the prescribed path, I detest them for ever."

(Guru Gobind Singh)

taken from : http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurus/gurugobind5.htm

We must first fight our own ignorance before we can dream about fightuing any other opressive force on the panth.

Hinduism aint out to get and sublimate Sikhi - yes there are a few fringe loonies who get a lot of media coverage cos of the hatred they preach but the internal threat is much greater than the external.

Theres no point being "sikh" or being "Khalsa" if u dont know the why and wherefor - Sikhi is much more than a badge of allegiance. It is one of the most universal faiths on the planet but we the custodians of the knowledge seem hell bent on flushing it all away with the complete lack of knowledge suffered by Sikhs in general in this day and age.

U may think reffrences to "Hindu mythology" further the cause of those turning sikhi into a hindu sect but i disagree - U cannot reject those holy books and there teachiongs that our own gurus studied and thought worthy of study - the lessons those stories provide are in the most part just as valid today as they were then. They aint there as stories to entertain u - they are there to give a message or convey the truth of something. They are worthy of study simply to increase our own knowledge about spirituality. -Sikhs dont stop learning.

Also rejecting Khalistani terrorism and calling those who refer to it as stooges is very small minded - Just becasue a guy says hes a Singh says his prayers and thinks he is doing the right thing doesnt make him right.

Just because someone says they are Sikh it does not stop them being terrorists - Sikhs can do wrong. Fanatacism and Bigotry are not exclusive to other faiths and that somehow Sikhs are immune to that.

I do not deny that there have been cover ups and falsification and victimisation of Sikhs and I do not deny that they have often been villified unjustly however to say that our hands have always been clean is an out and out lie.

Sikhs are just as capable of religous and social intolerance as any other fringe loonies - hell there are still murders in India by "sikhs" on the basis of caste !!!!

You whole post reeks of bias the same way the shastarvidiya site sometimes reeks of bias.

The world isnt black and white lad u gotta see the grey to get the whole picture.

Im sorry if anything I said upsets u and i mostly agree with what u have said except the bits ive made an issue of, but i strongly feel that the biggest threat to Sikhi is our own ignorance and we should be engaging ourselves in educating ourselves rather than pointing fingers.

again sorry for the por structure i was just typing stuff as i thought it and i hope i aint caused u any offence lad.

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harps - i agree with u on the basis that allot of "sikh" people are ignorant about their faith - however thats why this site and numerous other sites have been set up - to allow poeple to learn about sikhi :D:D

fateh

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I totally agree with sukhbir. 100%.

I have read and observed this website with great detail,and after reading up from various sources,it seems these nihangs are the product of indian patriotism. they seem to look down on the 'mainstream' khalsa yet they are the epitome of naivity and unecessary pride (in regards to being proud of their land i.e india.) sikhi is about love,not questioning or insulting other peoples beleifs; with the derogatory comments made about the panth (as a whole) i feel nihangs lose their credibility- and this website reminded me of of a bully,trying to make a point. if we are to be called mugs of the british raj,then i would refer to nihangs as mugs of the india! i mean,many nihangs have so much pride in india,yet what has india ever done for them??

Dont get me wrong,i respect nihangs. they are great sikhs,and i certainly dnt exclude them from the panth. however,i do question their beleifs and practises,and from an unbiased view (because iam neither khalsa nor nihang khalsa) i would say its the nihangs who have twisted the message of guru ji; intoxications,ritual killing of animals,beleif in hindu dieties,patriotic thinking,pride (which ive hurd many nihangs posses; borderlines with ego),judging others (as this website illustrates) giving goats a special order (similar to cows in hinduism) etc etc. iam not insulting the nihangs-please dont think this. iam merely showing them that we all have obstacles. we all have bad things i.e bad points which would exclude us from the panth,or break our rehit. but no ones perfect. we are ALL sikhs. we are learning. of course we will make mistakes. my point is,live and let live. and if someone is happy with their life,so be it. its wrong and unjust to say one lifestyle is the 'right way' and to dismiss all other peoples beleifs. i for one,would not be happy with the nihang lifestyle,because for me,it isnt my way of thinking. it doesnt mean im a bigot. or im narrow minded. or im blind to see the truth,etc etc. it means the mainstream khalsa appeals to me,and makes more sense in the context to the bani the gurus wrote. all TEN gurus.

and harps is right-we need to fight the crap within,then no one would touch us!! its because of our weaknesses that people expoit the panth and create divisions.

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I agree a lot with u sikh_fauge the info on the site is certainly an eye opener and may contain a lot of truth - but the style of writting to me is unnecassarily confrontational and is more divisive than inclusive.

beleif in hindu dieties

I think ur confusing there belief structure here - sikhs dont believe in any particular god we beleive in a primal force/being creator of the universe and guiding hand for it etc etc etc - the name of the god matters not - if i decided to call god "super duper awsome fabulous being who rules eternity" its the same as u saying god or a muslim saying "Allah" it is belief in the one god - u cant believe in a "different god" cos there arent any "different gods" just different facets ofthe same god.

After talking to Hindus and doing a bit of reading i found that Hindu's dont believe in multiple seperate gods but that all the "gods" are different facets of a one god - just put into manageable portions for there minds to try and comprehend.

I hate it when sikhs bang on about "idol worshipping hindu's and millions of gods" cos they dont realise where these beliefs stem from and how they are part of the Hindu way of life.

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ur post made sense,but i cant see how this relates to my reference to hindu dieties. i, in no way implied that hindu dieties came down to many gods and idol worship.

what u have to remember,is hinduism and hindus are a loose term. did u know it was the muslims who came up with this term??

hinduism is an umbrella of beleifs and ideals (most of which contradict and clash with one another) its a term used to describe people from the indus valley. hence its wrong to say hinduism is x or y. because different groups of hindus beleive in different things. whilst some beleive in one god (which moves into the snaatam dharma) there are others who have multiple gods. As for idol worship,i think u'll find 99% of hindus do. this,along with the scaredness of the cow,is one of only few points hindus have a shared consesus with.

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Sukhbir

You made some really excellent points in your email to the shastarvidya site. I too have my reservations about the content on the site. I have had discussions with the person who set up the site on the Sikh History forum. He was not adverse to misquoting Gurbani in order to put forward his idea that Sikhi is basically a 'mini Hinduism', you can be a Sikh not matter what you do. You can be an Udasi and cut your hair, wander around like a beggar but you can still claim to a Snatan Sikh.

When I pointed out his misquoting of Gurbani, which is all the more sinister since he claimed to be a Nihang and having studied both Guru Granth Sahib and the Dasam Granth. He immediately accused me of being a 'fanatic' and stated that it was useless to discuss anything with someone with a 'closed mind'. At the time I also pointed out that his wording and misquotion of the Gurbani Tuk was exactly the same as that on an RSS site !. After that he disappeared, returning only to put postings about the urls of sites he had set up.

The creator of the website is affiliated with the Budha Dal of Nihangs whose leader is Santa Singh. Santa Singh was excommunicated from Sikhi in 1984 when he used money from Indira Gandhi to rebuild the Akal Takht after it had been destroyed in operation bluestar. At that time Santa along with Indira Gandhi's other Sikh cronies were the only ones that supported her action.

As far as I recall there was also a story that the Punjab police wanted to prosecute Santa Singh for his dealing in cannabis but as he was Indira's favourite Nihang they were stopped from pursuing the case. It think Mark Tully remarks on this is his book ' Amritsar - Indira Gandhi's last battle'

There is no doubt that the website makes for a great presentation but it is the content we need to be weary off.

You are quite correct that the website reeks of EGO. It casts mainstream Sikhs as fanatics and claims to know the 'secret' of Sikhi. It makes up a secret history as if Sikhs in the 18th and 19th centuries had suddenly developed collective amnesia about Sikhism and true Sikhism lies only with a few thousand Nihangs. It also states that cannabis is allowed in Sikhi.

It is useless discussing anything with the website creator as he appears to have his own agenda.

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Huuuuummmmmmm, i hear wot u sayin, jus a small point pls correct me if i am wrong, every1 always brings this point of this guy being excommunicated, i thought he was not so long ago bought back into the fold, now as sikhs shud we keep rubin this in ppl's faces, i think thats wrong and now that he has been acceptd bak it shud b forgotton about.

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Huuuuummmmmmm, i hear wot u sayin, jus a small point pls correct me if i am wrong, every1 always brings this point of this guy being excommunicated, i thought he was not so long ago bought back into the fold, now as sikhs shud we keep rubin this in ppl's faces, i think thats wrong and now that he has been acceptd bak it shud b forgotton about.

I don't think Santa Singh has been 'brought back into the fold'.. far from it he doesn't even recognise the power of the Akal Takht jathedar to excommunicate him in the first place.

I think you might be confusing the Nihang leader Santa Singh with the other political cronies for Indira such as Zail Singh and Buta Singh.

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Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

If you wish to inform people of dangers on the internet, then you should also inform them of the dangers of pure ignorance that seems to disease the minds of many individuals.

The Udhasis, Nirmala, Seva Panthis and Akali Nihangs are 4 groups, but belong to the ONE Sanatan Sikh Faith. They accept, tolerate and assist each other when required. It seems some people do not bother to read or contemplate what has been explained but decide to make their own conclusions based on what little they know. It also seems imagery that is not Sikh, yet is spoken of within Sikh scriptures is also very confusing and detremental to today's mainstream Sikhs.

This paranoia about being "absorbed within the Hindu faith" seems to fuel this idea that Sanatan Sikhs "worship" dieties. Yet, NO WHERE on the websites has this been stated. In fact, we explicitly state numerous times that Sanatan Sikhs WORSHIP but the ONE Almighty, but RESPECT all souls blessed by the Almighty.

In fact, the word "HINDU" does not even appear within Gita, Ramayan, Upanishaads, Vedas, Puraans, or Mahabharat.

If one considers Jaap Sahib (and other works of Akali Nihang Singh Guru Gobind Singh ji) as GURBANI, then is it wrong to consider Dasam Guru Durbar as GURU? If so, then why consider these works as GURBANI? Why are these works read by almost every practicing Sikh around the world? Prior to the creation of the SGPC, the authenticty of Dasam Guru Durbar was NEVER questioned and was in fact kept within the Akal Takht uptil 1941.

The role of Adi Guru Durbar, and works of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh have not been questioned anywhere on the websites. Adi = paramount.

Certain individuals claim that the website is a product of Ego, yet they do not ask themselves why we offer to TEACH people this art. If we were people feuled by Ego, would we be willing to open this art to the world? We have also requested that anyone who can refute what has been said with evidence is welcome. Should we be egotists, why would this offer be made?

With regard to meat, we have NOT forced anyone to start eating meat, or abstain from it. The same goes for Shaheedi Degh. Unlike mainstream Sikhism, it is not our role to interfer or mould an individual's karams or enfource our beliefs upon them. We do not even wish to convert anyone into Nihangs.

We provide information and knowledge, and what is done with this depends upon the individual. Should they wish to act upon it, contemplate and discuss, or ignore it entirely, that is their choice. If they disagree with what has been said, or consider that we have misquoted Gurbani or Historical references then we invite OBJECTIVE discussion and proof from scriptures and historical texts.

With regard to Khalistan, 1984, and the role of Akali Nihang Singhs and Akali Nihang Jathedar Baba Santa Singh during this time, please await www.nihang.com that settles this issue.

To date, NO ONE has come forward with OBJECTIVE discussion nor has anyone provided ANY historical or scriptural references to refute what has been stated on the websites.

The website has provided ample quotes (from scripture and historical texts), and transcripts from interviews with past and present Shastar Vidiya masters to back up everything that has been said.

We ask those who do not agree with the website to do similar courtesy and provide evidence (scriptural and historical) to back up their arguements.

All subjective opinions (such as the ones expressed by individuals above) will be IGNORED, as they remain products of ego and ignorance. Should people wish to accept subjective baseless opinions as being truth, then so be it, as only FOOLS accept subjective beliefs.

Akaal hee Akaal.

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Narsingh

Are you the creator of the shastarvidya website ?

If so I assume you remember our discussions on Sikh history where you went by the name Nihang.

If so, then I would welcome an opportunity to discuss with you again, you left rather abruptly when I pointed out your misquoting from Gurbani which was picked up from an RSS site

If you are truly sincere about an objective discussion then I will post an refutation of some of the stuff on your site, but if you going to run off like last time then please don't go around asking for an objective discussion

Gurfateh

Bikramjit Singh

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Sri Akaal Ji Sahai

If you wish to persue a personal arguement and/or desire an ego boost, then you are in for a big disappointment.

The website is run by myself on behalf of the Gurdevs of the Institute of Sikh Martial Heritage, and the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Budha Dal.

As such, please be aware that your questions regarding the website will be directed to ALL who are involved, including the Sanatan Sikh World.

These forums have been utilised to ADVERTISE the art of Shastar Vidiya, not discuss it. The individual called Sukhbir emailed us, and received a comprehensive reply yet he failed to post that.

Should you or anyone else wish to ask any questions, then please email info@shastarvidiya.org as they will not be answered on discussion forums.

This is the wish of the current Shastar Vidiya Gurdev Nihang Niddar Singh.

If you feel this is unfair or not up to expectations, being cowardly, etc etc. , then you are more than welcome to meet us face-to-face at one of the Shastar Vidiya or Savya Rakhshah Akharas running in Wolves, Coventry, B'ham or London (coming soon) and present your case.

Akaal hee Akaal.

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Should you or anyone else wish to ask any questions, then please email info@shastarvidiya.org as they will not be answered on discussion forums.

oh cmon veer sikhi knowledge belongs to everyone...here its more easier..loads of people can view the discussion take part in argument..back up their arguments....also if you made an site you should be also comfortable answering the viewers questions/concerns/comments on this forum..not only this forum or any other sikh forums...

i have made special sections for you guys on this site...please let us have the oppurtunity to know about u guys by havin discussions..as i said..discussions wont slandering each other...just pure credible facts with resource...

i hope you agree to have discussions :cry: :cry: :cry:

akaaaaaaaaal :D

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Narsingh

In a few lines you have just answered a dozen questions !. It is not really a good start to begin a discussion by accusing the other party of boosting their own ego.

Firstly I do not propose to pursue any personal argument. But if you put up stuff on your website then you should have the courage of conviction as well as the facts to back it up. Otherwise any tom dick or harry can put up a website claiming the world is flat and calling all those who want to present facts to prove him wrong as being 'fanatics' or not being 'open minded'.

Unlike you I do not have the backing of great scholars, Nihang or otherwise. There are only two things that I can count on -;

1. Guru Nanak's Bani ' Koorh Nikute Nanaka, Orrakh Sach Rahi'

Falsehood by it's very nature is bound to fail and only the truth will remain.

I do not claim any great learning but I am as sure as I can be that in the end the truth will shine forth. If I am wrong then your Nihangs will have proved to have spoken the truth and I shall be shown to have been false.

2. Many years of private study of Sikhism. This is pretty superfluous when compared with number 2.

My reason for wanting to make sure that the alternative viewpoint to your website is available is so that young impressionable Sikhs are not, in my view, subjected to incorrect and downright false information. There is a great deal of falsehood from vested interests against Sikhi. Sikhi is already facing many challenges and you website is just one of them.

As for your comment for me to present myself at your Akhara, in the midlands, that's such a long way to go, to meet so many friends. Your user info states that you are in London, perhaps we can meet in London, one to one so to speak ?.

Gurfateh,

Bikramjit Singh

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> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

>

> I only received notice from 'admin bhaji' today that this thread was

> actually running. It had moved since my posting and I had thought It may

> have been removed. So apologies for not being able to respond to some of the

> points raised. Since I have only seen the replies today I will try and

> answer some of the criticisms systematically.

> First off I have copied Harps reply (quotation) and will make my

> comments in answer to

> specific points raised.

>

> Gur Fateh

>

> Sukhbir Singh

"Hi let me first of all state that I am not yet fully convinced of all the

www.shastarvidiya.org and www.sarbloh.info sites have to say tho I do

beleive they do raise some very valid points about Sikhi with the

shastarvidiya site my main beef is with the language rather than the

message."

It was with the intention of receiving clarification that prompted my mail.

"Im a commited "liberal" and prefer to make up my own mind about stuff

rather than have it disctated to me - ok theres all by agendas listed and

,ade clear let me reply to ur post Sukhbir."

Yes.

"Its a well written and convincing post tho i do have several reservations

about some of the stuff u have said."

Thank you.

"The first thing i have a problem with is Quote" :

The greatest threat that the Sikh nation as a whole faces at the moment is

the complete absorption into

Hinduism (read as a faith or the modern indian state) It does not take

prophetic abilities to see the inevitable destination of the

'saffronisation' of india.

"That doesnt come anywhere near being the biggest threat IMHO - as a British

Asian youth i know the biggest threat to which we have almost lost the

battle to is ignorance"

I am sorry but your honest opinion is incorrect, this is not based on any

notion that my opinion is superior than your own but on basic historical

principles. The threat to the Sikh nation from the 'saffronisation' of india

cannot be overstated, Sikhism faces the same threat that has been faced by a

number of other faiths and nations from the beginning of time namely

subjugation and assimilation. What we see in india today is the ugly face of

majoritarianism, the fact that the ruling party at this time is the BJP a

umbrella organisation encompassing the likes of the 'Shiv Sena', 'RSS',

'bajrang dal' amongst other ultra right wing organisations is a clear

indication of the mood of that country at this time.

You talk of the ignorance of British youth but you must understand that

ignorance is a temporary state that can be likened in this case to a moral

or spiritual sleep. The issue is not if they rise from slumber but when and

once aware what information will be available to them in order to understand

who they are. The (GOI) is at this time in a process of historical revision,

it has only one purpose to, (in the Panjabi Vernacular) "JAAR PATT" which

basically means to remove one's roots, in this case the roots of a nation I

can do no better but to quote Milan Kundera.

"The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its

books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books,

manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long that nation

will begin to forget what it is and what it was... The struggle of man

against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting."

"Speaking as a 24 year old I feel my parents generation sold my generation

down the river in terms of educating the youth about there religion and

placing a heavier emphasis on being punjabi than they did on being Sikh."

The sacrifice that 'our' parents made in leaving behind their homeland to

come to what was for them a alien and hostile land must be appreciated. We

have access to greater learning resources as well as the benefits of a

structured education and most importantly we have been fortunate to grow up

in a liberal democracy that has allowed us to practice our faith. Strange

that the country which we are supposed to regard as our own does not even

recognise our faith as distinct from hinduism in its constitution whereas

here in Britain we are on the brink of being classed as a unique and

separate ethnic group, bear in mind to be classed as such is beyond having

a distinct religion (this we are already regarded as having) but a separate

ethnic group...that's a people.. that's a nation! It also explains why the

(GOI) is not keen on the British allowing this classification. In many ways

the Sikh diaspora is a thorn in the side of those who wish to liquidate the

Sikh identity, the (GOI) may be able to change the indian history books but

we can counter their efforts with the truth.

"Im one of the lucky few whose parents are amritdhari and whose parents made

a conscience decidion to teach me about the faith i was born into. However

how many of my frinds and comtemporys can say the same ??"

You are truly blessed I would describe my upbringing similarily.

"Being Sikh is a lot more than wearing a badge taking amrit and patting

urself on the back about how good u r - thasts the best case scenario it

seems sometimes."The worst case scenario is the importance of being a Sikh

cos ur a Jatt u

can drink like an irishman and ur better than those "extermist hundus" and

"fanatic muslims"

Being a Sikh is more than wearing a badge agreed.

But recognition of oneself is a beginning and the clarity that brings are

the first steps

towards finding the truth. To be amritdhari with all that entails is a VERY

good reason to "pat yourself on the back" as you put it. Given the times in

which we live it is easy to become cynical, we must try to avoid that.

"The meaning of Sikhi is being wattered down to nothing more than empty

symbols and rudebwoys kicking off about "them converting our women"

The meaning of Sikhi can never be watered down. Sikhi is totally accessible

should we want it, this is the beauty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

A teacher that can be in a million places at once, never contradicts itself

or changes to suit the times, is beyond any of the worldly vices that can

corrupt all living beings, the accumulated knowledge of great men close to

the immortal god. What more do you need?

"Sikhi is in much greater threat from our own swwiming love affair with

ignorance than it is to any vague nebulous external force "safronising us"

I must say that this comment more than any other shows great ignorance on

YOUR part. To think that the ongoing threat from the (GOI) is vague and

nebulous is at best naive and at worst denial.

There are far too many examples to list here with regards to indias very

clear intentions of creating a wholly hindu nation with Sikhs welcome only

if they deny any distinction from the fold. We are welcome in india but only

as a offshoot of hinduism. Other minorities Dalits, Kashmiris,

Christians, Nagas, Tamils, Oriyas, muslims to identify a few do not have

this

'option' and in many ways that is their saving grace. We as a nation can

withstand and repel a frontal attack but the "Kutil Nitti" (wicked strategy

enunciated by Kautiliya in the 'Arth Shastra') used to subvert the Sikh

religion and deplete its numerical strength is far more difficult for Sikhs

as a nation to counter. As I said examples are too numerous to list but I

shall give you simply one that well illustrates the future for us within

india.

As a example it is a effective one in that it clearly strikes at our very

foundations, our youth, our future.

Revised indian school textbooks doctored by the Central Board of Secondary

Education (CBSE) do not even acknowledge, for instance, that Kashmir was a

Sikh territory until the British annexed the KhalsaCommonwealth in 1849, or

that Little Tibet was annexed by Sarkar-i-Khalsa,The Honourable Khalsa, as

the name appears in the Treaty of 1842 with emperor of China and the Dalai

Lama as the joint counter-party to the Sikhs. Their recently revised CBSE

textbooks, which have been translated in dozens of languages, slander the

Tenth Nanak, (Guru Gobind Singh Jee) calling him an employee in the court of

Bahadur Shah. This is but one small example however..."the hand that rocks

the

cradle ......." You were lucky enough to have parents who in your

words made a conscious effort to teach you about your faith but how would

you feel if your children were being brought up in a country that slandered

that very faith?

Quote:

"As long as the Khalsa remain distinct and intact, I shall bless them in

every way; When they detract from the prescribed path, I detest them for

ever."

(Guru Gobind Singh)

taken from : http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurus/gurugobind5.htm

Yes this is the Gurus quote and it is exactly the point I am making there is

a real and determined effort to remove that distinctiveness and it is that

which is our greatest threat.

"We must first fight our own ignorance before we can dream about fightuing

any other opressive force on the panth."

This is a ridiculous notion that is akin to the man who lets his house burn

because it required some repairs, those that can must fight now otherwise

the message received by those future searchers of truth will not be the

message of Nanak.

"Hinduism aint out to get and sublimate Sikhi - yes there are a few fringe

loonies who get a lot of media coverage cos of the hatred they preach but

the internal threat is much greater than the external."

You are again either naive or blind, fringe loonies? Are you talking about

the ruling party of india? I would hardly call the government of the day a

fringe, the same party that won so convincingly in Gujrat on a purely hindu

supremacist ticket following the anti-muslim pogroms. The same government

that rose to power on the back of the Babri masjid destruction. If you think

for a second as a distinct Sikh you have more intrinsic value in india than

a Muslim, think again. Tell me do you think Advani is a fringe loony or a

government minister?How do you explain the patronage afforded the nirankaris

by successive indian governments? The line betwixt the external and internal

is becoming ever more frayed such is the level of subversion.

"Theres no point being "sikh" or being "Khalsa" if u dont know the why and

wherefor - Sikhi is much more than a badge of allegiance. It is one of the

most universal faiths on the planet but we the custodians of the knowledge

seem hell bent on flushing it all away with the complete lack of knowledge

suffered by Sikhs in general in this day and age."

Agreed, but the faith is essentially a simple one that does not require the

agonising that some parties suggest.

U may think reffrences to "Hindu mythology" further the cause of those

turning sikhi into a hindu sect but i disagree - U cannot reject those holy

books and there teachiongs that our own gurus studied and thought worthy of

study - the lessons those stories provide are in the most part just as valid

today as they were then. They aint there as stories to entertain u - they

are there to give a message or convey the truth of something. They are

worthy of study simply to increase our own knowledge about

spirituality. -Sikhs dont stop learning.

Sikhism was not created in a vacuum, nothing is, the fact that Guru Nanak

both read and contemplated the Vedas, smritis, shastars and yet denounced

them as a means of salvation speaks volumes. Hinduism professes that the

Vedas are divine although the scriptures are the source of the Varna system that espouses the artificial division of mankind. Hinduism could be said tobe the only religion in the world that preaches inequality as a matter of

doctrine. Our Gurus also considered the Koran as worthy of study and the

Sikh faith owes its conception as much to Islam as it does to hinduism

although it is distinct from either. Although this is not reflected either

by you or the site.

"Also rejecting Khalistani terrorism and calling those who refer to it as

stooges is very small minded - Just becasue a guy says hes a Singh says his

prayers and thinks he is doing the right thing doesnt make him right."

Using the very term 'Khalistani terrorism' is very small minded indeed. It

is a blanket description that defies any understanding of the facts or

dynamics of that situation. It was a term coined by the (GOI) as was

'Khalistan' in order to defame a genuine movement that was created as a

result of (GOI) meddling in state and religious politics by using

communalism as a means

of control. You clearly lack the requisite understanding necessary to

appreciate how this sort of terminology belittles and belies the truth of a

situation.

"Just because someone says they are Sikh it does not stop them being

terrorists - Sikhs can do wrong. Fanatacism and Bigotry are not exclusive to

other faiths and that somehow Sikhs are immune to that."

Firstly define for me a 'terrorist' many seem to have a fondness for the

label, what does it mean exactly? Who is it that decides who is a terrorist?

To the British Udham Singh was a terrorist and now he is a indian hero with

motion pictures to recount his fame. The Boston tea party, a very important

event in American history and the beginnings of that country's route to

independence from Britain would have been said in today's terms to have been

a terrorist gathering, Guru Gobind Singh Jee would have been a terrorist to

the Mogul empire, if alive today Jesus and his apostles would have been

vilified as terrorists by the Roman state as it was he was a traitor because

that was the popular term of the day as popular as 'terrorist' is today.

Before

commenting understand what you are talking about it is very, very important.

"I do not deny that there have been cover ups and falsification and

victimisation of Sikhs and I do not deny that they have often been villified

unjustly however to say that our hands have always been clean is an out and

out lie."

This was never a issue in my posting although I am happy to go into length

as to the relative 'cleanliness of hands' my objection was to find such a

useless, derogatory and loaded term as 'khalistani terrorist' on a site that

purports to provide knowledge about Sikhism.

"Sikhs are just as capable of religous and social intolerance as any other

fringe loonies - hell there are still murders in India by "sikhs" on the

basis of caste !!!!"

There is a huge leap between the intolerance and discrimination of a

individual and the concerted, illegal , discrimination of a state against

its

minorities. You are incorrectly talking about fringe loonies, the truth of

the matter is, they are the state government. It was not fringe loonies that

perpetrated blue star and black thunder, they were not fringe loonies that

led the anti-sikh pogroms in delhi, they were not fringe loonies that

orchestrated the gujarat massacre's and so on and so forth. Again I believe

your lack of perspective lets you down. Imagine this, is the killing of a

German by a Jew in nazi Germany the same as the holocaust? Remember we are

not talking about numbers we are talking about whether or not there is a

systematic and institutional method of repression and discrimination that

includes the government, enforcement agencies, media and judiciary. In the

case of the Sikhs, no there is not.

In the case of the government of india..ABSOLOUTELY

"You whole post reeks of bias the same way the shastarvidiya site sometimes

reeks of bias."

I suppose your use of the word 'reeks' suggests impartiality on your part?

Although you apply it to me as well as the site it is no less subjective.

You are quite

brazen in your own bias of that be in doubt. What I do not understand is why

would the shastarvidiya site "sometimes reek of bias" as you state.

Does it change from time to time?

My comments were purely based on the site I was not aware of

any forum etc.. So is it your opinion that changes, as to the amount of bias

on the site??

"The world isn't black and white lad u gotta see the grey to get the whole

picture."

The world is not black and white it is in fact a multitude of colours but

there is right and wrong and sometimes you have to see that. Our Gurus

taught us that we must have the courage of our convictions even in the face

of hostility. Sitting on the fence is not a admirable trait nor is it true

that 2+2=5 any amount of comparative reasoning will not make it so.

Something's are

simply right and some are simply wrong you need to know that but more

importantly you need to believe it.

"Im sorry if anything I said upsets u and i mostly agree with what u have

said except the bits ive made an issue of, but i strongly feel that the

biggest threat to Sikhi is our own ignorance and we should be engaging

ourselves in educating ourselves rather than pointing fingers."

You are simply wrong in your assertion as I have repeated many times in this

post we deny this threat at our own peril there are those that can't see but

they are not as dangerous as those that won't see.

"again sorry for the por structure i was just typing stuff as i thought it

and i hope i aint caused u any offence lad."

The poor spelling is more immediately frustrating than the poor structure it

just makes your post at time's unintelligible. As for causing me any

offence,

calling me 'lad' could be viewed as somewhat patronising, its an expression

I am familiar with and is usually

used to denote a young boy. I do not know whether this is intentional on

your part

so it's fine by me.

One point I would like to make though is that I was thirteen years old

when the BBC were beaming television pictures of the Harmandir Sahib

causeways covered in blood accompanied by the wailing of Sikh women

who had lost their husbands, children, father's, mothers. I was only a few

months older

when new images of young Sikh children who had

suffered the torture of having a bicycle tyre put around their neck before

being dowsed in petrol and set alight so that the burning rubber could not

leave the flesh no matter the amount of water poured upon it.

The television at that time was ablaze with Sikh men who had their beards

and hair hacked off whilst being held down by the 'mob'

Sikh girls whose clothes had been torn from their bodies walked dazed

occasionally catching the attention of the camera.

I remember the interviewer asking a member of the mob when would this stop

and the reply from a little indian man " we will never stop, they will pay,

they have killed our mother"

I was thirteen then so that makes you what? About 7 years old at the time,

is that right LAD?

_________________

"Growing older is mandatory, growing up is optional"

As is waking up.

Gur Fateh.

Sukhbir Singh

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Before procceding any further. This thread shall be moved in debate section later on today. If you cant find this thread at this section then its there in the debate section.

Regards

Zorawar Singh

Narsingh has yet to confirm if he is willing to take part in an debate about the content of his website. Will he ?.

I'm half expecting him to try and fog me off with his usual ' i'm not going to pander to your ego ' etc routine.

Sukhbir Singh

Good response to harps.

Gurfateh

Bikramjit Singh.

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I really cant see what all the fuss is about! If you personally email Ustad Nihang Niddhar Singh Ji he will explain his motive and the promotion of Shastarvidya.

It is part of the direct martial status of the Sikhs and Warriors of old. The relationship of "Hindu Gods" are stories of inspiration and not for worship. Many warriors were of different background who fought along with Guru Maheraj.

If during the Dehli riots Sikhs had practiced Shastarvidya, then im sure there would have been less casualties. We are not only trying to better ourselves mentally but physically as well. Peace is great but then why would we fight in times past?

No one can predict the future, Bani and Shastarvidya can only prepare you for today and the unknown days ahead.

The mainstream Gatka as displayed by most, is just a play or a dance if you will. Those who have ever been in a fight know how much skill and preparation it takes to DEFEND yourself. A simple play is not gonna get you far, believe me.

Personally i believe Ustad Nihang Niddhar Singh Ji really should highlight the fact that we do not worship Hindu Gods etc but are used for inspiration.

Simple point why do we use the word Ram so frequently in bani? And not Waheguru? Because this is what the masses needed back in the day to get a grip of reality. In the same way people could relate to the stories of Chandi for inspiration only. Yes in an ideal world ALL Sikhs would not need anymore inspiration other than Simran etc, but how many of the Sikhs can say that it is true for them. Then again in an ideal world who would Sikhs need to fight?

Prepartaion for war is just part of Sikhi, as is Simran. If you can do Simran while sitting on the train, why cant you immerse yourself in Simran while training?

Marajuana is/was used for medicinal value (coz not every warrior is prepared to go through the pain as well a the Guru). Today it may look like it is abused, but they use five leaves in deg. Those who know a thing about the puff know that five leaves in that amount of deg does not get you wasted. Preparation during the state of mind during war includes such deg for the Nihang.

People say that Nihangs walk around Punjab looking down at others, i think it is more dissapointment than anything else. They helped defend us and upheld the martial (excluding the meat and cannibis issue) and the simran, then they look at us who would not even know how to defend their mothers let alone themselves. Look at the AKJ crew for example, my friends father wanted a glass of paani from the langar kitchen, but the sevadars would not let him in coz he had not taken Amrit from AKJ (why i never knew that Amrit was different) even though he follows rehit. They would not allow his son do do Kirtan coz he had cut hair. So they are also on the ego trip.

People quote Bani to say thet Bhagat Kabir Ji wrote that eating meat is a door straight to hell etc, but here we are arguing on whether meat is allowed or not allowed when Guru Nanak wrote something to the terms of what is meat and what is not meat only a fool argues whethere you should eat or not eat it. The great thing about Sikhi is that you discover things yourself the more you heighten yourself, but wne you have people arguing that are clearly on different planes then the arguments become invalid.

Futher your mental being via Simran, futher your physical being by Shastarvidya.

P.S. I am sure Ustad Nihang Niddhar Singh Ji will enlighten you further. Also dont diss the man if he cant make his points known.

I expect a gurelling reply from someone, but i honestly did not mean to offend anyone, so please let me know whats up in a tasteful manor, afterall we are not here to argue but to help each other on this CYBERSANGAT. Peace and love.

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iam totally inspired at sukhbir and other singhs level of intelligence here!

waheguru!

to the paaji above-i think the reason people want a reply on here is so we can all see whats going on i.e it is a forum and we all want to learn new things. thats all.

i can see ur point.that hindu gods were used to inspire men.but was the a battle against mughals,or muslims?? iam from muslim descent. would hindu gods have inspired my ancestors?? why isnt there any glorification of prophet mohammed (pbuh) in dasam granth?? this would have inspired many muslim brothers also (infact,sikhi would have flourished even more to the masses!)

if sikhi is a universal faith,then why do u need to be inspired by hindu gods in this day and age?? isnt bani enough i.e chandi di var?? and also,u speak of bhang,and its role in pain killing,etc. we live in the uk. theres medicine for that stuff now-and u dnt get nasha! besides,i doubt guru ji took any intoxicant,along with his warriors,to fight oppressors! that would defeat the whole purpose of KHALSA i.e purity. would it not? i cant imagine guru tegh bahader and his disciples takin drugs before being boiled alive,etc. im not flaming u paaji- im just interested to know why guru ji would all of a sudden glorify hindu gods (when in guru gobind singh ji says he doesnt see them/recognise them) and why intoxicants would be allowed. im just confused. so does that mean 1400 pages of bani prior to dasam granth are wrong? or needed altering? is there any possibilty it may have been altered? and who wrote dasam granth?? was it guru ji himself? or his warriors?

p.s i want to learn shastar vidiyai. i beleieve the new class in london will be held in slough. right? if so,can i learn,without being a nihang sikh?

fateh

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It is part of the direct martial status of the Sikhs and Warriors of old. The relationship of "Hindu Gods" are stories of inspiration and not for worship.

EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY.. Hindu gods stories are there for inspiration yet people claims that nihangis do worshipping.. i have seen the pictures... but i have seen one single nihangi actually bowing down to shiv ji, hanuman ji statues.............there is a difference

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With all love and interest for the panth. I can tell you that Ustad Nihang Niddhar Singh Ji does not aim to confuse Singhs around the world. And to the Singh of Muslim descent, The muslims that were of that time and age of that location were converts to the religion adopting the Islamic faith, so even they understood the stories of Chandi etc. The dasam granth cannot be excluded from the panth, but should not be taken as Bani, asthe purest without a doubt bani is the SGGS.

But it is so wrong to disclaim it, afterall Sikhi is not a buffet, if in rehit some people read some paath from Dasam Granth who is to say what is valid and what is not. I have not read all of the Dasam Granth but from what i inderstand it seems very educational and inspirational, as would any other book dedicated to waheguru.

If your frame of mind does not allow you to see past the Hindu dieties then its on you, but never have i read once in my research the prayer TO chandi, just spoken to in the third person perspective. To say Chandi ha great batles against evil etc. These stories like i said earlier were meant to appeal to the masses who were Hindu at that time.

Anyone from the UK knows about St. George we dont look at him as a Deity but as a guy who defeated a dragon. We do not worship him but his story is of courage. In the same way we discard the hindu deities as god but merely as warriors. DO NOT PRAY to these hindu gods as GURBANI and only GURBANI is needed to Sikh awareness.

I hope all Sikhs can educate others that Sikhs are definately not Hindus, and by talking about Ram, Chandi the Bani is only helping those who do not understand.

Please do not offend the ShastarVidya site especially if you do not understand the importance of this great tradition of the Sikhs.

For those who wrote and argue that drinking cannibis is not written anywhere, please tell me One line of bani that mentions the physical essence of Amrit, and the 5 K's more impotantly the Khalsa.

If you read the SGGS then you will know the word Khalsa is written before the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji, so why is that the Khalsa was not established then?

Nihangs are passing on their heritage as SIKHS and to better yoursefl and understand always goe to the source rather than hear the chinese whisper version.

We are here on this message board to help each other. Peace and love for all. Wanhegurrrrrrrrrrrrrrru

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I dont know very much, and im probably WAY out of my depth posting here, but i'd just like to give my understanding of the Hindu Dieties issue..

so far as i can gather, and with my limited knowledge, The Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our other religious texts acknowledge the existance of Hindu Dieties and Demi Gods.. as it was explained to me, these Demi Gods gained their power by the blessings of and through the worship of Mahraj, (wether we know Mahraj as Waheguru or Hari or Ram etc.).. I beleive even Japji Sahib, which was written by Guru Nanak Dev Ji refers to Hindu Dieties.

each of these demi gods have the power to grant u certain things, ie they all have their specific area, im told there is a diety for every human want and need, and they number something like 33 million :shock: .

BUT, our Gurus, through giving us the Guru Granth Sahib and our other Scriptures, be they Dasm Granth, Sarbloh Granth, have given us the means to go to Mahraj DIRECTLY (and thereby gain ALL their blessings,as opposed to go thru various Devis or Devtas).. i think this is the source of major confusion.. we do not worship the hindu dieties because we dont have to.. we have our Guru and his prescribed path.

so all that being said, i DONT beleive we're Hindus.. we're Sikhs because we have our Guru, so its a totally different path. but so far as i understand we're meant to show respect and tolerance to other faiths and to the fact that all religions worship Mahraj in some way, so we shouldnt really diss them. keep in mind, that its the PEOPLE who are a bunch of screw ups, not their DHARM..

hope ive made some sense and not confused any of these issues further.. apologies for anything i've said that may offend..

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Paaji,

one thing ive always been told...is not to do nindya of others...

especially of sants....

there are numerous remarks made about Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh.....whho are we to judge a people of an infinately greater spitituality than us...

at the very least you should remove from our website the comments you make about him and his interpretation on Sikhi..

I myself am not affiliated with the AKJ, but i recognise that it is very wrong to say wrong things about a sant.

Also, you question Bhai Uptej Singh and his gatka technique....

what happened between him and Niddar Singh in India...

If your going to doubt this...members of Uptej Singhs akhara have got the video to prove it!!!

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You dont have to be a Nihang to practice Shastarvidya, its there for self defence in the old martial tradition. So go ahead knock yourself out.

As Far as Gatka Vs Shastarvidya are concerned, it does seem like Gatka is a play a choreographed dance and Shastar Vidya is the real deal. Anyone who has been to a karate lesson know that it never worked in a street ruck, but those who have been to Muai Thai or boxing etc, know that this technique is far more effective. Ustad Nihang Niddar Singh ji has challenged Uptej Singh but Uptej singh had not responded. If he had nothing to fear he should accept. About the video Uptej singh has, can some one opst a link or something for all to view. Coz until then i know alot of people who say that they have movies of blah blah etc. Infact dont quote me but Ustad Nihang Niddhar Singh ji denies even dueling with Uptej singh.

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