Mr §ingh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I was just going to say that its from Swaiye Sahib.. on't have a clue where in Dasam Granth mr singh, i also suggest you read saloks of bhagat sheik farid ji Will do Bhull chukk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I was just going to say that its from Swaiye Sahib.. on't have a clue where in Dasam Granth in akaal ustat, panna 13 ish onwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 hhe oke..tho its gonna take a while for me to arrive at you guy's spiritual level I'm going to begin with DHAN DHAN SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI, then when I've understood everything, and begun following it, I'll come for Dasam Granth will take a bit time tho :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 DHAN DHAN SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI, then when I've understood everything take about high targets.. lol im still stuck at the contents page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 how did you arrive at Dasam Granth then :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 the first bani i read and enjoyed memorised was Jaap Sahib, ever since then, been reading dasam bani more. sri guru granth sahib ad darbar is all cool too, but if you plan on understanding all of that first, you got a huge job, i suggest reading 24 incarnations in dasam bani and various bani with referecne to harnkish/pralaad etc. you'll enjoy it more and understand it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 If I'm not wrong the 24 incarnations are on the first panna right? or:? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Choubis Avtar, not sure what panna. i think i may have made a mistake on the svayia thing. I was talking about the 33 svaiyas, not sure if 'Ram rahim puran quran, anek kahe mat ek na maneyo'' comes in that, will have a re-read just to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 'Ram rahim puran quran, anek kahe mat ek na maneyo' Comes in the TEN 'Pauria' Swaiya.. if that helps :? cause I had a guy in Eng scan in the first page of the translation of Dasam Granth, and it meantioned the 24 incarnations :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I want the full paragraph. I've read it already but if im asking for full paragraph then there is a reason behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 re-reading, found it, its not in akal ustat but in Ramavtar, sorry for the mistake before. Unfortunatly, dasamgranth.org does not have the whole 24 incarnations online, but it is in the steeks, in the 24 incarnations (full version, not online version) is the ramavatar needed. I can type if up if people want to read it, otherwise, if you can get a copy of Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then got to panna 254 about half way down. That would make life easier. enjoy peeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 The various court poets at the time of Guru Ji would recite their compositions in front of Guru Gobind Rai and Guru Sahib would utter a few lines to make his personal philosophy very clear: At the end of "Ram Avtar" chhand No.863 & 864 are the comments of Guru Sahib: Savaiya "Pahein gahay jabtay tumray, tab tay kou aankh taray nahi aanyo. Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo. Simarat Shastra Bed sabai bahu bhed kahai hum ek na jaanyo. Sri Aspaan kripa tumri kar mai na kahyo Sabh toh bakhaanyo." Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else. I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them. O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command. Dohra! "Sagal duar kao chhad kay, gahiyo tuharo duar Baahen Gahey ki laaj us, Gobind dass tuhar." I have shunned every door and have entered Your door Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave. At the end of the long poem entitled "Krishna Avtar" Guru ji writes his own Savaiya: "Dhan jio tih ko jag mai, mukh tay Har, chit mai judh beechaarai. Deh anit na nit rahay, jus naav charay bhav saagar taarai. Dheeraj dhaam banai ihai tan, budh su deepak jiu ujiaarai. Gianeh kee badhni manaho haath lai, kaatartaa kutwaar buhaarai." Blessed is the life of that person in the world who recites the Holy Name with his mouth and contemplates fight against evil in his mind. He regards the body as a temporary vesture and uses the boat of the Lord's Name to cross the rough world-ocean. He makes a closet of patience in his body and illumines the mind with the lamp of divine knowledge, He takes up the broom of (spiritual) wisdom in his hands and sweeps away all cowardice and falsehood. The meaning is quite obvious Truth Ji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa ji, Try to look for the meaning once again. Guru ji is admiring almighty God and then showing that in front of you there is nothing I can rely on. But when you posted that one line it was showing that Guru ji tried to show that all other religions and scriptures are useless. Guru ji has given simple message that almighty is our destination. He is not trying to belittle any other religion or scriptures but trying to give simple message that almighty is human beings ultimate destination. Here is two more to read. As out of a single fire, Millions of spark arise; So from God’s form emerge all creation, Animate and inanimate. (Akal Ustat, page 87) Guru Gobind Singh further declared: He is in the temple as in the mosque, In the Hindu worship as in the Muslim prayer. (Akal Ustat, page 86) Sikhism is based on tolerance. It gives simple message. of all religions, the best religion is To utter the Holy name with love, and do good deeds Of all rites the holiest rite is To purify one’s soul in the company of the holy; Of all effort, the best effort is To meditate on the Lord and praise Him ever; Of all speech, the sweetest is that, Having heard it,. to speak of God’s glory; Of all temples, the most sacred is (says Nanak) The heart in which the Lord dwells. (Sri SGGS: Sukhmani, Astapadi 3. Pauri 8.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Perhaps the english translation isn't very accurate? I have been misled many times by relying on english translations of Gurbani from various people, we need to have a proper source we can refer to for english translations in Gurbani, it's so annoying. We need scholars like Baba Hari Singh Randhawa, Maskeen Ji, Baba Jagjit Singh Ji Jarkhowal Wale and Prof Darshan Singh to approve authentic translations, otherwise people misinterpret so much, especially non-Sikhs, in order to attack Gurbani. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooh-young-man! Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 truth panji you are wrong. Please read the verses again and you will know why. Guruji is saying that he rejects all the mat (opinion, beliefs ) contained in both the Vedas and Quran. You have completely bypassed the verse that Bibiji has so kindly taken the time and effort to post and then gone off at a tangent to the debate. You are right that Guruji is saying that Waheguru is our destination but you have totally ignored Guruji's views on the 'paths' that people use to get to Waheguru. The Vedas and the Quran have their own opinions about how to get to Waheguru but Guruji says he rejects all of them. If you reject the path shown by the Vedas and the path shown by the Quran then logic states that you also reject Islam and Hinduism. This then leaves the Guru's path ( Gurmat ). A path containing the Guru's mat. It is good to use logic in such situations. The impression I got from your first post was that you did not believe that the verse provided by Bibiji existed. When one of the other moderator pajis said it was right you then changed tack and said that she should read the whole verse. Just a murakhs opinion. Let the love shine through ! Jaspreet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 It's a modern tradition to use Guru ji's words to bash other religion. It was not used in old days. My translation is right or wrong it's up to you to decide. Are you saying that one Guru is saying that "Don't call them false but contemplate" and other one is saying the opposite? He is saying that they have nothing useful? They are bunch of useless beliefs? Also, ooh-young man its not easy for me to open the door here. Give me few days and I will type Punjabi article written by Bhagat Singh Giani and that will show you what Gurus have rejected from Vedas and other scriptures and what they have believed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 from my understanding, guru ji isnt sayin other scriptures are wrong or all other religions are wrong, theres no concept of kafir or non believer in sikhism, its that... if u follow sikhi, read sikh scriptures, and follow sikh beliefs, rather then mixing and matching faiths - u cant travel down a river in 2 boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 ooh-young-man!, Seems like you have bram-gyan. Could you please post verses in Gurmukhi? Also before judging someone you should try to know someone's nature. I don't believe in puting down others or showing that I have the ultimate knowledge. I'm here to learn and as far as Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa ji, goes if I had wish to have debate then I would have used our moderators section. It was question to raise my point and thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Truth and Iron Bangle are correct to investigate these verses in more depth...the extrapolations provided by Gurpreet Kaur are not surprising in this age of Kala Afghanas and SGPC-sterilisation. Truth is correct to say that this misuse of Gurbani to discredit anothers faith totally is not the puratan ways of the Gurmat (the path of light), debate, discussion was always occurring and usually those engaged whould be very well versed in all these scriptures and not relying solely on the opinions of this or that Professor or Dr as we do today. The view that the Dasam Granth includes composition of Guru Ji's poets is a typical one promoted by the SGPC which leads into the Kala Afghana type notions of denying much of this Gurbani. The poets writings can be found elsewhere, the Dasam Granth is uniquely the writings of Guru Gobind Singh and to say these are translations of old classcal (Shaastri) texts again is an oversimplifications. Those who have read Raam Avtar, Chandi Di Var for instance will know that there exists in them details not found in the Ramayan or Makhande Puran (the supposed original texts from which Guru Ji translated these)...in my personal opinion, I believe Guru Ji in his wisdom was able to reveal further hidden truths behind these recitations in his writings.... ...as per the quotes, Bibi Gurpreet Kaurs comments are correctly quoted, however it is interesting that during the dark 1980's in Punjab the Khalistani Troopers would actively go about villages to ensure no one watched the serial "Ramayan" as a means to avoid the dissemination of "Hindu Barsha"...ironically though, the verses below were recited everyday during Rehras:- Dohra Ram Katha Jug Jug Atal.... and Chaupae Jo eh Katha suney ar Gaavey, Dookh Paap nikat na aavey... As I have mentioned elsewhere, the paranoia of the Singh Sabhas and SGPC about the 'Hindu Basha' had caused them to cut out the Arril from the Rehras (owing to what 'appeared' to be references to the Devi Mata) and subsequently the above lines were also cut... ...leaving us with the shortened rehras, which only include the Savayae (Raam Raheem...) and Dohra (Sagal Duwar...), so is it really surprising that we find over the past 100 years, this Judeo-Christian attitude arising where we use select writings from our Gurus to totally discard anything other than SikhISM? I would urge those who believe in Gurmat to consider carefully the closing verse of the Mool Mantr:- AadSach JugaadSach HabeeSach NanakhoseebeeSach Humbly, Niranjana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 May I add to Niranjana's comments that anyone who shortens gurbani or changes it is by definition a Ram Raia and hence an ennemy of the Panth. SGPC having shortened rahiras and chaupai sahib have commited this horrible crime against our Gurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihal_Kaur Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 You know I am totally amazed. this verse "Ram raheem puran kuraan anek kahai mat ek na manio" I always thought meant: People believe in all these ways and talk about them yet the underlying teachings, the basics the mat (understanding) no one follows" Like I always thought Guru Ji is making us see sense, don't just SAY you follow something and read it and debate about it, REALLY ACTUALLY follow it otherwise theres no point, we will just be like those that had the chance to collect jewels but collected dung instead. (dung being our own ignorance which we will take with us when we die and scare the pants off everyone with our ugly faces) Anyway, life is too short to go on about other religions, I'm not really gonna change much am I? May as well concentrate on myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihal_Kaur Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 It distresses me that we all read shortened versions of banis. What is a person meant to do who wants to read the full versions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 get a Budha Dal gutka: absolutely complete and authentic! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Speaking of rahiras, Nanaskar gutka version is also complete... because nanaksar has a same maryada that sach-khand hazoor sahib had 100 yrs ago from now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooh-young-man! Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 ooh-young-man!, Seems like you have bram-gyan. Could you please post verses in Gurmukhi? Also before judging someone you should try to know someone's nature. I don't believe in puting down others or showing that I have the ultimate knowledge. I'm here to learn and as far as Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa ji, goes if I had wish to have debate then I would have used our moderators section. It was question to raise my point and thats it. Truth Paji, sorry I made the mistake of calling you panji in my previous post. My bad ! Please let's not get into the sarcastic name calling. I never said I have Brahm Gyan so please be so kind as not to put words in my mouth. Hardly an attitude I would expect from a site admin. Can I also ask that you consider changing your name Truth, I think it is very pretentious of you to go around with such an ID. I think someone mentioned to me that you used to be called Truth Singh but now you seem to have changed that from a limited meaning to an all encompassing meaning. I think that's not a very Gursikh name to take. May even affect your ego and we wouldn't want that would we 8) I think you are totally mistaken in thinking that criticism of other religions is a 'modern tradition'. I wish some people would try and do some research before they start posting incorrect statements which do not have any basis in Gurbani. Looks like something you picked up in a children's book on Sikhism. Today Sikhs are afraid to criticise other beliefs but we allow others to criticise Sikhism. We have made the Gurus into some sort of 'eastern holy men' in the tradition of Gandhi. We forget that the Gurus called a spade a spade. One only needs to look at how Gurbani calls 'idol worshippers' as Fools and deluded to understand that the Gurus did not fear antagonising people but cared more for the truth ( no pun intended on your name :shock: ) Truth what is your view on this verse from the Bachittar Natak Kae mait darai usarai banai upparai garhai fair maitai upai Kriya Kal kinu na pachhani ghanyo pai bihai hai ghanyo pai bihanai katai krisan sai KEET kotai banai kitai raam sai mait daarai upai mahdeen katai prithi maajh huai samai aapani aapani ant mooai (27) Apologies but I haven't got around to learning to use the gurbani fonts on this forum plus I'm posting from work. loosely translated You have created many and then destroyed them You give life, sustain it, destroy it and then recreate it All Time your creative process is known to no one Some are subject to it today and others when they existed Many WORMS like Krishna you created and as Ram were created and brought to an end Many like Mohammed came to this earth in their own time they came and went The word WORMS is Keet ( punjabi Keerha ). Dr. Gopal Singh in his translation in Thus Spake the Tenth Master uses the words 'little creatures' but in a footnote states 'literally Worms' As usual the Dasam Granth on the Gobind Sadan site totally ignores the word Keet. Says someone about Jaggi's scholarship that he needs to ignore Gurbani words to fit into the politcally correct culture of today. I see the politically correct attitude displayed by Truth is carried over in the gobind sadan site. Isn't this an insult to Gurbani that words are ignored ? Could you also comment on the following verse from Gurbani? I have posted a link to the Sri Granth site which will take you straight to the verse. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...jabi=t&id=21219 As we know Muslims recite the name of God when they slaughter an animal to make is halal. the following line in the verse is interesting abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa. The word Abhakia - which is Bhakia which in Braj means Language. The A prefix turns the word into it's opposite. So Abhakia means non-language or to be more precise 'unintelligible language' Language being something that is understood. Therefore is this verse describing the name of Allah as 'unintelligible language' ?. Also I think the word Kutha is taken from the Punjabi Kohna - or to torture. Does this mean that Guru Nanak is saying that the Muslim way of slaughtering animals is 'torture' ? You also cited "Don't call them false but contemplate", I assume you mean the verse by Bhagat Kabir ( not the Gurus as you wrongly attribute ! ). Someone wrote on another thread that each verse has a context and setting. You should look at what the context is that Bhagat Kabir recited this verse, you may be surprised at what the exact meaning is. Don't have nightmares Let the love shine through ! ooh-young-man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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