Hukam

[Dhoor721]

Gurfateh,

Clearly a big idea of Sikhi, especially the beginning of JapJi Sahib path, is Hukam...but what exactly does this mean? Does this mean that literally everything that happens is in His Hukam? If this statement is true, then that means no decision is made by us (humans), and if that's the case, then consider the next 2 scenarios:

Scenario #1:

Bob is born with a very crooked and long nose. He is very displeased with it, although it is in God's will that he was given it. However, Bob decides to get plastic surgery to get a perfect nose. Now, normally I would say this is not accepting God's will...but if EVERYTHING is in His Hukam, then wouldn't this plastic surgery also be part of His Hukam?

Scenario #2:

Joe decides that since everything is in God's will, he will stop studying for all of his exams. After all, what difference does it make if he studies or not? God's Hukam will occur regardless. Is Joe's decision rational? Why or why not?

I hope I've made my question clear. I am very confused with the idea of how powerful Hukam is. If everything is in His Will, then a murderer can go to court and say, "Hey, just accept it--it was in God's will for me to kill that person!"

If my question is not clear, please let me know, and I will rephrase it.

Any comments/answers would be appreciated.

[Satanz_Child]

thats an interesting point you have raised, its similiar to the question, IS GOD ALWAYS RIGHT, n if the answer to that question is yes, then by default, everything which happens is right.

but to truly believe and follow the diction that God is always right is far beyond us mere mortals, because we fail to understand the intricacies of life, karm, etc.

hence it was introduced in the Bhagavad Gita and lata in by Guru Nanak Dev Ji, that as humans all we should worry about is our deeds and not the reward for those deeds, leave the rewarding of deeds to God himself, but in turn God is the all doer, but to ensure that ppl would not have an easy get out clause when they commited evil, this level of thinking was introduced.

Free will, etc was also introduced, so in a sense we are right to propogate the arguement of free will, because of our limited understand of God.

[Guest]

Hakum is one of the complex and most difficult thing for an sikh to do.. stay in hakum of guroo maharaj... stay in lord's will.. people who understand hakum are very rare enlightened person... you basically need to be "Murda' (Living Dead) in order to understand hakum of guroo maharaj ji....

How you do it???

Well excesive amount of seeva of gurughar ie- jooraya(shoe) dii seeva, clean washrooms, langar and sadh diii seeva with your excessive amount of naam simran will help you come across with your ego after you merge with guroo maharaj ji... you understand hakum at that state of mind

[Pheena]

Scenario #1

If he was born with a crooked nose, why did he want to change it?? In the olden days there was no sugery to make ones nose look normal. So it is a choice made by BOB to correct his nose. Why, because he was not pleased with the way he looked, The body bob took upon was appointed by his past deeds, therfore the crooked nose was a part of his past deeds. If he chooses to get plastic surgery to correct his nose, it is his choice and yes it is under God's Will.

Scenario #2

"God helps those who help themselves"

God did not make us as Robots, we have a concious that gives us a Choice in life. Your Actions Create your Destiny. If you choose to not do anything your destiny is formed thru your actions. He has given you the power to controll your destiny. Joe has made that choice to not study, so the result of Joes choice will be experience by joe not god. He has given you FREEDOM of CHOICE. God is not a DICTATOR, he is LOVE and LOVE is FREEDOM.

"Hukmay Unther Subh ko, Baherr Hukam Na Koi" Everyone is under the will of God. Your choices are limited by his will. A Fish can swim anywhere it wants to, it dies, kills, eats, procreates in the ocean, but if the fish says that it wants to leave the ocean it cannot. You cannot go beyond his will. You will have to stay under his will. But within his will he has given you the choice. The choice to Deny his existance, the freedom under his will. The fish can even refuse to live in the ocean, but knowing that she cannot survive outside of the ocean, the mind of man has created the illusion that he is not living in the will of God. You cannot go past his boundries. No matter how far you go you will still be under his will and his eye. You cannot escape his will for you cannot exist outside of him.

To realize what his Hukam is you have to let go of your own Will, your own choice and enter into his Will, his hukam, his choice, how does this happen like N3O pointed out thru Seva where you ego is shatered and by the Grace of the Guru.

Hope that helps

Waheguru.

[HeyDudesWassup]

Scenario #1

If he was born with a crooked nose, why did he want to change it?? In the olden days there was no sugery to make ones nose look normal. So it is a choice made by BOB to correct his nose. Why, because he was not pleased with the way he looked, The body bob took upon was appointed by his past deeds, therfore the crooked nose was a part of his past deeds. If he chooses to get plastic surgery to correct his nose, it is his choice and yes it is under God's Will.

WOW Pheena bro, I used the exact same Scenario when I was tlkaing to my freind yesterday, what a coincidence.

[LegendarySiKH]

Another scenario thats causing me some trouble :

Scenario 3#:

Your a poor, helpless child in Africa...starving to death.

Is this Hukam? Guru Di Kirpa? If God does everything for the right, why would he starve a child? If the child had committed some sins in his past life, why would he re-incarnate the soul into another human form?

How can I child of this sort manage to do seva, when he can't even feed himself?

The murder of 6 million Jews in the holocaust. Is this also considered Hukam? happening for the good? I'm pretty certain the jews who died were much more closer to god than Adolf Hitler. How come, the "hukam" took into play for Hitler and he was able to commit a genocide?

[vaapaaraa]

I think there is a difference between a Guru Di Kirpa and hukam... or ami wrong....

Everythin that comes and goes is his hukam, love his hukam, recite the naam... accept everythin as a gift.. and do ardaas

.... LegendarySIKH you seem to be havin doubt about that only good things happen under His Hukam

[Pheena]

Another scenario thats causing me some trouble :

Scenario 3#:

Your a poor, helpless child in Africa...starving to death.

Is this Hukam? Guru Di Kirpa? If God does everything for the right, why would he starve a child? If the child had committed some sins in his past life, why would he re-incarnate the soul into another human form?

How can I child of this sort manage to do seva, when he can't even feed himself?

The murder of 6 million Jews in the holocaust. Is this also considered Hukam? happening for the good? I'm pretty certain the jews who died were much more closer to god than Adolf Hitler. How come, the "hukam" took into play for Hitler and he was able to commit a genocide?

What does one know about the past lives of that Child, yet one takes pity upon him, who is taking pity upon him you or the compassion of God?? CHOICE is yours to make the Fruit of your choice is in the hands of God. For all you know that kid could be Adolf Hitler reincarnated, would u still be compassionate??!! Your Actions Create your Destiny, but you have the Power to change the destiny. Some are able to use that power some are so weighed down by their sins that they don't even get a chance and they have to burn off that load thru some means.

One should be compassionate without taking into consideration of what paap might this jeev is getting punished for. When one begins to play the blame game, blame god for that kid starving in Africa, then god isn't God hes gets enjoyment out of a Starving Kid, if that is true then you are saying he isn't "Niv Vair" or a compassionate god. We take one Snap shot of someones life and we think we know everything. We become Sherlock Holms and start to investigate why is this kid starving. God becomes the Scape goat for every bad thing that has happened in this world. But NOT ONCE does one consider MAN for the problems we face today. His Hukam was to match your will to his and pray and live compassionatly in this world, has MAN did what god asked of man??? Yet the blame again falls upon GOD, for he could've saved so many people from getting killed. Where is the Compassion of Man that god asked him to show towards life?? But its God's Fault not Man's.

We have to Understand the Freedom that God has bless us with.

A Muslim friend came to visit me. This was his question too. He said, "The biggest question I feel is that if God is, then why is the world so evil?" He is right, because there can be no relationship between God and evil. How can there be?

I told him, "Let us remove all evil from the world for a moment. Can you visualize what the world will be like then?" The moment you remove evil, the good also disappears from the scene. Good cannot exist on its own. It is because of evil that good exists. Remove darkness and light disappears together with it. Light exists because of darkness. Remove the cold, and the heat is automatically lost. Heat and cold are different variations of the same thing. If we try to remove death, life too will be lost. If there is no death, how can life be? Or, if there is no life, how can death be?

The universe exists with the help of polar opposites. The world's existence is brought about by the music between opposites. If the opposite is removed, both are removed. Remove the male, and the female is lost. Remove old age, and youth is lost. The young person always wishes to prolong his youth because he does not know that youth and old age are so closely combined that if one is removed, the other is lost. We all wish ugliness to be removed from the world; but if ugliness is lost, beauty will also disappear. If you wish for a world without ugliness, be prepared to face a world where nothing is beautiful.

I told my friend, "If you wish for a world where evil is banned, good will flee from such a place immediately. Then this world will be a big prison house; because where there is no freedom to do evil, there can be no freedom at all.

In fact, the word "freedom" contains the freedom to do evil also. If a man is told that he is free only to be good, what meaning does such a freedom convey? This freedom has no meaning. Rather, it implies bondage. It would be proper to say; you are condemned to be good—not free to be good. When we tell a person he is free to be good, the freedom to be evil enters along with the freedom to be good. God is the totality and yet he does not control anything. This means that God creates, but He creates freedom.

A man is free to be good and free to be bad—as bad as he wishes—when God is the Lord of everything. This is because true freedom exists only if there is freedom to do what one wishes, be it good or bad. When no such freedom exists, man is not man but a machine which does whatever it is made to do because it is insentient.

Man is sentient; he possesses consciousness. Consciousness is not possible without freedom. way204

Again God is not a Dictator, FREEDOM of CHOICE is given to you. I don't blame God for that Child Starving to Death, i blame the Politician/Rules of that country who are in charge yet they bicker about their elections and money that is to support the people is being spent on their houses. Those presidents of those countries have the power to feed their people.....and on top of that the UN has helped so many people. God is not Liable for the mistakes of Man.

I have heard that there are 6 things that are out of your controll:

Birth/Death

Sanjoa/Vijoag

Maan/Apmaan

the rest are created thru your own destiny.

[Pheena]

WOW Pheena bro, I used the exact same Scenario when I was tlkaing to my freind yesterday, what a coincidence.

great minds think alike ji

[HeyDudesWassup]

Another Scenario:

Your Cat or Dog has gotten into an accident at home (Fell down the stairs or something) while you were at work. Nothing can be done for the pet.

2 things can be taken as hukam:

a) It is suffers by itself and dies right before you come home.

You come home and find it suffering and take it to a vet to put the pet to sleep since you think that is a humane thing to do.

I don't think anyone would sit at home and watch their pet suffer until it dies and say it was Hukam.

I don't know if my example is clear enough since I can't explaint hings very well

[LegendarySiKH]

Wow, excellent response Pheena.

Sure does clear somethings from me, and I'll research more into it.

Thanks alot

[Dynamic_Banda]

We are always looking for blame, infact I think the hukam is like our own conciousness, its whats inside us telling us the way (the one we usually ignore), There is no one to blame for any circumstances, all is down to karam and ranubandhis however if you act by the hukam there is no karam involved and hence nothing to pay off or be owed, no reason to come back.. all is done in the hukam.

Humm someone who knows what I am on about try and explain it, coz I wrote it knowing what I was on about and now im confused.

[Pheena]

We are always looking for blame, infact I think the hukam is like our own conciousness, its whats inside us telling us the way (the one we usually ignore), There is no one to blame for any circumstances, all is down to karam and ranubandhis however if you act by the hukam there is no karam involved and hence nothing to pay off or be owed, no reason to come back.. all is done in the hukam.

Humm someone who knows what I am on about try and explain it, coz I wrote it knowing what I was on about and now im confused.

I actually posted the same concept in my post, but deleted it. but this is what i think u are trying to say, pelase correct me if im wrong.

As long as you take yourself to be the Doer of your karms, then you will be the receiever of the fruits of those Karmas. Those deeds are done in the Ego for you are doer, if you exist then so do your deeds. When you cease to exist or when you lose your ego, he becomes the Doer therefore the karms are not yours but his. He is responsible and you are the insturment of his actions. No Karm = No debt (includes good and bad) = Liberation.

[Dhoor721]

Thanks for all of the excellent responses...

Pheena brought up how our actions determine our destiny...does God also give signs of what he wants our actions to be? Does he give hints about what is right/wrong?

I can't think of any better example, so how about this:

If I can't figure out how to solve a problem, is it illogical to go and say "God, tell me what I should do" and flip a coin thinking about the 2 answers, each being either heads or tails, and whatever it turns up as is your answer...Is that reasonable or stupidity?

[Dynamic_Banda]

We make those decisions all the time, a whole computer being so complex and able to rpovide so much information etc, runs ssimply by many heads and tails (zeros and ones). Some would say its luck and other would say its devine intervention, whichever makes you happy do that.

I actually made an agreement with maharaj that when i get married and the rehsta offers come flying in (i wish!!! ) I will simply toss a coin, heads i chose her tails i dont, this way its all up2 gurus hukam, and if she turns out nasty and stuff, then its gurus fault and either he fixes it or gets me a better one

pheena u got exactly what I was saying, also a good text to read if you can get ur hands on it is govind geet the song of guru gobind singh ji where he speaks with banda Bahadur and converts him from a sadhu dude into a warrior etc, (not sure of the accuracy or legitimacy of this document but its worth reading to get a nice understanding of dharam and adharam..

Also I would recommend reading the Bhagvaad Geeta.

[Pheena]

Thanks for all of the excellent responses...

Pheena brought up how our actions determine our destiny...does God also give signs of what he wants our actions to be? Does he give hints about what is right/wrong?

I can't think of any better example, so how about this:

If I can't figure out how to solve a problem, is it illogical to go and say "God, tell me what I should do" and flip a coin thinking about the 2 answers, each being either heads or tails, and whatever it turns up as is your answer...Is that reasonable or stupidity?

yes he does, he always does, but we never listen, that voice is so drowned down by the random thoughts and the garbage that is constantly being processed by the mind taht we cant' hear it. But he does speak. He gives more than just simple hints, he will hold your hand walk you to the right path. TRUST is what is missing 99% of the time, that is the reason for a Guru, because you can see the Guru in a physical forum, you know for certain he exists and with god you can have doubts. He becomes your Guide. You place your trust in him and he is no other than god himself. He himself guides you to himself, he himself provides hints for you to find him. Ask him to proved you with the eye, the ears, the wisdom to understand where he wants to take you.

It is up to us to recoganize the signs and hear the voice. So now the question is how do i hear the noise and see the sign, well the prupose of simran/padth/jap/tup/seva is that. To be able to hear the resonence of the sound that is within, the simran quiets down the rest of the garbage and leave the only voice that we need.

A Great Sculpture once was once asked, how does he come up with such great Sculptures and he responded with that the beauty, the image of the sclupture is already there all i do is take off the unnecessary pieces. Well that is what Simran does it quiets down the unnecessary voices and leave the one that is important.

When one is able to hear the voice he can never falter, how can he for god himself is guiding him. I bet you hear the voice today, but we tend to overlook it or push it down with the rest of the voices. To get a distinctive feeling of where that voice is coming from alllot of Simran is necessary. Before that we can't distinguish that voice from the thousands of others. And no one can tell you waht it will sound like, but you will know. One thing that will help you greatly is Prayer. Prarthna is the essence of the devoutee and i can tell you with my 100% confidence that he ALWAYS listens.

As for you Scenerio:

its a tough call because you are leaving it to chance by flipping a coin and yet you are asking for god to help you, so in either case if its good or bad god is yet again responsible. There is no way for you to determine whether god meant for it to be tales or heads, so you'll have to take whatever the coin lands on, its almost like closing your eyes and picking a door. One should be Confindent in his choice..but i do understand where you are coming from as i have also used the flippin coin trick..

The answer to your question requires Faith and Love with god for you to be able to trust yourself with him that he may lead you in the right path. For me allot of it comes from your parental guidence between what is right and wrong n to distinguish the difference and to be Confident in your choice. So all i can truely say is taht Do What you feel is right, take advice from your elder; before you actually make a decision do a small prayer for him to guide you on the right path and leave the rest of it up to god.

[Morpheous]

Gurfathe peeps, in relation to your dicussion i would like to submit the following extract taken from a booklet written by M S Cheema(Romford) called the Paradox of Evil. Cheema uncle appears on a weekly basis on Sukh Sagar Rado - channel 900(Sky - uk) Saturdays from about 10 to 11 - a very deep guy - also visit http://www.sikhifm.com/sikhismevil.htm for full booklet

Chapter V

PART 1 - IS THE WILL FREE?

Apparently it seems that the will IS free. That is, we choose whether to be good or bad because the individual has control over his behaviour. The word ‘will’ itself suggests that when we exercise will there are forces working against what we want to do and we have to exercise our personality to execute the task. Let us find what personality is. After all our behaviour is our personality in action. During our development our inherited propensities act and react with the environment and consequently the foundation of the personality is laid and the evolution continues. The process is seldom uniform and a far cry from integration. The analysis of the personality shows that different shades of personalities are produced and during the development of ourselves we often find that to more or less similar solutions our response is different and sometimes we are surprised what one is; one or multi-individual! For example if one is in a crowd the personal behaviour is suppressed and the leader controls one's behaviour with powerful slogans charged with emotions. The leader makes us to do, what ordinarily, we cannot even dream of doing. During riots one can be very cruel or brave and so on. The variable company results in very different behaviour. On further reflection of the behaviour we find that we have not got one personality but we have got several personalities and sometimes there is conflict between the personalities that creates tension in our mind. A personality can have two or move equally strong components and if the tension is great, the uniting thread of the individual ruptures or breaks and results in a ‘split personality’. Thus our basic concept of the personality shatters. Therefore the idea of ‘a’ personality becomes very illusive and consequently ‘a’ personality brought into action (that is the behaviour) becomes illusive and it becomes difficult to calculate the resultant behaviour or to find which personality has a free ‘will’. The subject seems to be growing in complexity and situations beyond our control eliminate the idea of ‘a’ free ‘will’.

Now let us make it a bit simple. A personality is formed by the action and reaction of one's propensities (in heritance) to the environment. Let us say a wrestler’s son is likely to be a wrestler because he inherited strong physique from his father and the father provides optimum environment both physically and mentally. This motivates him to do excercise and nourishes the body thus a wrestler is produced. On the other hand a wrestler's son may become an orphan at a very early age and he is brought up by a father who encourages him and provides him an environment to become a scholar. He goes to the library and reads books which cater for an intellectual and at home the topics discussed are intellectual in nature. The result is likely to produce an intellectual rather than wrestler.

On further examination we find it difficult to assess how for the inheritance (H) or the environment (E) will affect. It is impossible to detach either of the factors of ‘H’ & ‘E’. At most, we can say that a person is a product of inheritance and environment. Thus:

Person = H xE

Now let us see the nature of each of them separately. No-body had a choice to select the parents. They had been already selected before birth. Whether either parent was healthy, or either or both of them were weak or strong. Whether either of them had white skin, brown or black and so on and the list of variance may be enormous and each of the characteristics is likely to bring variation in the development of the personality resulting into no choice in the behaviour because after all, behaviour is personality in action.

Now let us examine the environment (E). The factor of the environment starts from birth. The mother's environment, financial, social and religious, affects her mind and it in turn affects the child's placing amongst the siblings and the interactions which largely depend upon the siblings is beyond the child's control. So it affects his/her future personality. At school, which teachers teach, what they teach, how they teach; inspire, dictate, be indifferent or enthusiastic, their behaviour can be versatile and variable. It is beyond his choice and hence the development. Though somewhat predictable, this is beyond one's choice. We have seen the whole environment is beyond his control.

We have seen that both ‘H’ and ‘E’ are beyond one’s control then how on earth their product ‘H x E’ will be under their control.

Whatever personality has been formed it is not one's choice, so personality in action can never be one's choice and the question of a free will is simply an illusion and hence it seems clear that one who has a ‘free will’ is over simplification on unconscious display of ignorance of the believer.

CHAPTER VPART 1 - FREE WILL IN VARIOUS RELIGIONSModern Christianity believes in ‘free will’. However the ancient did not. Saint Paul was the closest associate of Jesus; who writes that ‘If I want to do good, I find only doing some thing bad. It is only by His Grace that I can do good." So where is the free will? It is only His grace.Hindu scriptures fluctuate between ‘free will’ and ‘His Grace’ and in depth it is only his grace.In Islam, Muslims means one who voluntarily surrenders his will to Allah. Once the will is surrendered it belongs to Allah so the will is not free for him to be used.In Buddhism the first step is to surrender to the Arhants or the Buddha’s. So question of free will is finished at the beginning.

In Judaism when Moses went to see God, he was asked to leave the shoes behind and along with the shoes he left behind his will and only His Grace prevailed.In Sikhism, Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s philosophy revolves around 'Gurparsad' – the Gurus Grace.Thus on deeper understanding of the religions we find that the ‘free will’ is absent. It is only His Grace but because of the difficulty in explaining the paradox, Hindus created Maya (illusion) Christians created Satan, and Muslims created Satan but the reality is otherwise; No free will. Does it mean we are only robots?

CHAPTER 5PART 3 - ARE WE THE ROBOTS?In order to understand it we have to understand the Existence. We are part of the Existence. Once we surrender to the Existence (Hari) we start playing in His team. Those who do not surrender they live in illusion and say ‘I do it’. On meditation we ultimately find that there is nothing like ‘I’ in our body and together with that the misconception of ‘my’, ‘mine’ and ‘me’ disappears.To the degree where we discard of ego, we are happy and we are members of Hari’s team and the vice versa is true as well.It is only by dissolving our ego we are happy and enjoy His Grace and vice Versa. So the sooner we lose the idea of ‘free will’ the better will be the degree to which we surrender our will so we are nearer to God. This ‘will’ is the insulation which apparently separates us from God. As the wall of ego starts dissolving, the Grace starts becoming effulgent and whatever we wish, it is granted. However I must admit that it is difficult to explain in words; it is to be experienced and enjoyed.

Again it is finally a paradox. Those who surrender free will voluntarily merge with God and their ‘will’ prevails. Those who do not surrender are shuttle cocked between success and failure. The idea of free will and ego act as a thorn in the foot - and they suffer as they move.

The wicked shaaktas, the faithless cynics, do not know the Taste of the Lord's Sublime Essence. The thorn of egotism is embedded deep within them.

The more they walk away, the deeper it pierces them, and the more they suffer in pain, until finally, the Messenger of Death smashes his club against their heads. ||2||

(Kirtan Sohilla)So the comfort and enjoyment lies in surrendering the ‘will’. Accepting the idea of ‘free will’ very likely generates arrogance false pride and inflated ego.

[Hari]

Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko,Baahar Hukam Na Koe.

Nanak Hukamai Je Bujhai, Ta Haumai Kahai Na Koe...

[Mugermach Singh]

i would recommend reading Raradox of Evil by M.S Cheema aswell.

when i read it, came to the conclision that everything is binary, so as much good as there is evil. If there was no evil then what is good? we got nothing to compare good too?, so evil is good that we are able to compare, if we couldnt compare, then we would basically be boring.

The book explains it better. Highly recommend reading it, only bout 20 odd pages a5.

(note! book named raradox, not paradox, when we asked him, he gave some long speech about why, and the reason... um.. still dont get quite get it.)

[tSingh]

I'm not into Cheema's dualism on evil/good. Too simple. He's certainly a mathematician though, hoowee! I have a lot of respect for the man though. It's nice to meet Siinghs that think!

As for free will and God, people are making the mistake of thinking of God within the confines of time. People are assuming God can only determine everything for us OR allow our own freewill. If God is beyond time and space, then our free will is also pre-determined! Therefore, in any given situation, whatever we 'choose' to do is already pre-determined. Therefore hukam and free will are one and the same.

[tSingh]

..

[Mugermach Singh]

hmm, i think i know what you mean, but i dont know exactly what you mean, if you know what i mean. some things just cant be expressed as words, either you get it or dont, i reckon free will hukam etc is one of those topics that cant be described by words only understood.