When Baba NandSingh met with Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindra

[Guest Singh47]

NOTE: I do no stand by the opinion expressed in this story. I have simply translated this from Anand Chamatkar volume 13, chaper 2 (first part). Anand Chamatkar is the official biography of Baba Nand Singh Jee of Nanaksar.

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Baba Jee (Nand Singh Jee) was at Nanaksar Kaleree. He had arrived from Delhi, Deradoon and Panjor. The two Sangats met, from where were going together to do Darshan of Baba Nand Singh Jee,

Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale along with his entire Jatha from Bhindra were going towards the village KhaaRay. There were many students in this Jatha, amongst them Jathadar Giani Gurdial Singh Jee. Along the way they made the decision to meet Baba Nand Singh Jee, because Baba Jee just arrived from the mountains and was now in Nanaksar. The Jatha arrived at Nanaksar, from there they received a very warm reception from the Sevadars. The Jatha was taken near a well close to the Parkarma, hidden from view where the recitation of Sukhmani Sahib happens for 12 months, and was currently happening. As requested Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale along with his entire Jatha sat and began listening to the recitation.

A Sevadar told Baba Nand Singh Jee that Sangat from Bhindra has just arrived to see you. Baba Jee ordered a sevadar to serve them Jal (water). Baba Nand Singh Jee went to Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee. Jathadar Jee (Giani Gurdial Singh Jee) along with the entire Jatha greeted Baba Jee with a Fateh. Baba Jee very warmly said “Jee Aya Nuu†(welcome). Jathadar Gurdial Singh jee said, “Maharaj you have blessed us with your Darshanâ€. While they were warmly greeting each other, Baba Nand Singh Jee asked the Paathi to do Paath louder. Paathi did as told and read out these Pangathees

SRI MUKHWAK 284-11

NAAM KAY DHARAY, SAGALAY JANT

NAAM KAY DHARAY, KHAND BRAHMAND

NAAM KAY DHAREY, SIMRIT BEDH PURAAN

NAAM KAY DHARAY, SUNAN GIAN DHIAN

Baba Nand Singh Jee requested Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee to please do Kirpa by translating those Pangathees. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee in turn requested Baba Nand Singh jee “Patshah! Please do kirpa, put us on the path of Naam Kamaeeâ€. Jathadar Sant Gurdial Singh Jee was older in age then Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee. He was imbued in Naam Simran, thus he also respected those who did Simran. That is why he was very satisfied to listen to Baba Nand Singh Jee. Now Baba Nand Singh Jee said, “Giani Jee, you are a Vidhvaan(scholor), please do kirpa (by translating those Pangathees)â€. Giani Jee followed suit by starting the translation.

“With the support of Naam, all life thrives in this world. With the support of Naam all worlds and solar systems exists. The Puraans, the Simritees, and Vedas were all written by those who did Naam Simran. Everyone, and everything exists because of Naam. With the support of Naam, one gets all spiritual knowledge and meditationâ€

Now Baba Nand Singh Jee asked, “Giani Jee, what is the embodiment of Naam? Where can it be obtained? And where does it stay?†Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied “The embodiment of Naam is Nirankaar, and Nirankaar is present everywhere. Naam stays in the hearts of those who do Simran.â€. Baba Jee then asked, “What should one do Simran of?â€

Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied:

“ MUL MANTAR

EK OANKAR, SATNAAM, KARTA PURKH, NIRBHAAU, NIRVAR,

AKAL MOORAT, AJOONI SAIBHANG, GURPRASAAD.â€

Baba Nand Singh jee asked “Whose Mantar is this?†Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied, “This Mantar is of Nirankaarâ€. Baba Nand Singh Jee asks, “but who spoke this Mantar first†Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied “Guru Nanak Patshahâ€.

Baba Nand Singh Jee said, “Giani Jee, you have just erased the name of the one who spoke this Mantar. Our Guru, Guru Nanak Dev Jee was the one who uttered it first. You have just erased his name from the Mantar. Nirankaar gave this Mantar to Guru Nanak Dev Jee up to “GURPRASAADâ€. The meaning of GURPRASAAD is that “one can only meet Nirankaar, by the blessing of Guru Jeeâ€, but you have taken Guru Nanak out of the Mul Mantar, which was given to us by Guru Nanak. AAD SACH, JUGAAD SACH, HAIBHEE SACH, NANAK HOSEI BHI SACH, by including this, Guru Nanak completed the Mul Mantar by adding 1 at the end of HOSEI BHI SACH, thus erasing the difference between Guru Nanak and Nirankaar. If Guru Nanak wanted to make his Mantar separate then he would have added 1 at GURPRASAAD, and 2 at NANAK HOSEI BHEE SACHâ€. By finishing only half of the Mul Mantar at GURPRASAAD, you have taken Guru Nanak out of the Mul Mantar. By ending at GURPRASAAD, you have not only violated Nirankaar’s command, but have also insulted Guru Nanak.â€

Now Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replied, “At the beginning of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, it says “Nanak hosie bhi sachâ€, but everywhere else throughout Gurbani it ends at “Gurprasaadâ€, not just once but many timesâ€.

Baba Nand Singh Jee says in return “Giani Jee!, Nirankar was in existence from the start, he still exists, and shall continue to exist. Guru Nanak saw Nirankar, and only Guru Nanak received the Mul Mantar. Isn’t Guru Nanak our Guru? It was he who uttered Gurbani, and gave us this (Mul) Mantar, thus putting us on the path to righteousness. If we take Guru (Nanak) out of the Mulmantar then how can we attain Nirankaar, who himself says “GURPRASAAD†meaning if you want to meet me, then meet me through Guru Nanak. When Nirankaar himself has made Guru Nanak into a mediator through which we can meet Nirankar, then how can we push aside Guru Nanak and expect to meet Nirankar? If you say that it is narrated many times up to “Gurprasaadâ€, that just means Guru Nanak’s Mantar was up to Gurprasaad. He was only meant to do simran up to Gurprasaad, the reason for this is that Guru Nanak’s Guru was Nirankaar himself.

TATH NIRANGAN JOT SUBAEE

SOHANG BHED N KOEE JEEO

APRAMPAR PARBRAHAM PARMASAR NANAK

GUR MILIAA SOEE JEEO

Meaning: The source that has created all creation is Nirankaar himself. The light of Nirankar exists in everyone and everything. (SOHANG) Meaning, what does Satgur himself say? “There is no difference between me (Guru Nanak) and him (Nirankaar)â€. He is present everywhere. He is the embodiment of Nirankar and he is the dweller of Sachkhand. Whosoever he wants, he can declare as Parmashar.

NANAK BRAHMGIANI AAP PARMASUR

Sahib says: “Tat Nirangan is my Guruâ€.

AAP MUKHT MUKHT KARAY SANSAAR

Meanings: Satgur himself put the world on the right path and does Jeevan Mukht. “Giani Jee! We have received the Mul Mantar from Guru Nanak himself. That is why it is important to keep Guru Nanak as the mediator through which to meet Nirankaar. But if anyone has met him without Guru Nanak, then please tell me who he is.â€

Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee replies “Maharaj, Guru Nanak is no longer in this world in his physical body, that is why he has said:

SHABAD GURU SURAT DHUN CHELA

Meaning: in deep concentration, one should listen to the Guru’s Shabadâ€. Baba Nand Singh Jee in return said “if that is true, then there is no need for the one whose bani it is i.e. the Gurus. If what you are saying is correct, then one might as well just say to the Guru “Go! Wherever you want, there is no need for you hereâ€.

KEETA KAOO MERE SMANNE KARNHAR TRIN JANNE

If one leaves Karnhar Guru Nanak who puts everyone on the path to righteousness for another place, one cannot hope to meet Nirankar. You can only meet him with deep commitment and devotion even if that devotion is directed towards a stone. After Baba Nand Singh Jee said this, Giani Jee replied “Jee, I am not saying that we have no need for the ones whose bani it is (i.e. the Gurus), but because they are no longer in Dheh roop (bodily form) we cannot have there Darshan anymore in Dheh Roopâ€. Baba answered, “Bhagat Dhana’s stone (moorti) came to life, drank Lassi, and ate Prashaadâ€.

DHUD PEEAAEAY BHAGAT GHAR GAEAA,

NAAMAY HAR KAA DARSAN PAEAA

If Namdev’s stone can come to life and drink milk, Dhana’s stone can come to life and drink Lassi, then why can’t our Guru come to life in physical form and consume food? Giani Jee! If thoughts are terrifying enough then even they become reality, photos and pictures begin to speak.

GUR KEE MOORAT MAN MEH DHIAN

GUR KAY SHABAT MANTAR MAN MAAN

“Meaning: one should concentrate on the Guru’s appearance. Simran should be done on the Guru’s Mantar. Concentration should be firm, then even stones (statues) begin to speak.â€

Hearing this, Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale became very angry. But he had reasons to be angry, first he was young, secondly he was a scholar, thirdly he had all good human qualities, and fourthly he was a Taksali Sant. But the real reason for his anger was that Baba Nand Singh Jee had sent only uneducated Sants to give amrit to the Raja. Our educated Gianis were not even mentioned. Because of this, Gianni Gurbachan Singh thought of it as his insult. He now wanted to beat Baba Nand Singh Jee in this debate by making him look like a mad man.

PARIAAY MOORAKH AKHIAA|| JIS LAB LOB AHANKARA||

The reality is, those people are fools, who think they are smart. Just as Shiv Jee narrated Amar Katha to Parvati, and the parrot who was hiding and also listening thus attaining immortality. Shiv Jee tried for 12 years to kill the Parrot who was with Sukhdev. Shiv Jee losing his mind in trying to kill the parrot forgot a very important fact that and that is how can he kill one who is immortal. Shiv jee only realized this fact when Vishnu told him this. One who is immortal cannot die. Similarly Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale forget the very Tukh he was interpreting earlier “NAAM KAY DHAREY, SIMRIT BEDH PURAAN†Those Mahapurkhs who have Naam in there hearts, attain all knowledge of the Simrities, Vedas, and Puraanaas. Still Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee thought out of ignorance that Baba Nand Singh Jee was uneducated. What need is there to talk to our scholars. At last Giani Jee furiously spoke:

JO PATHAR KO KEHTAY DEV|| TAKEE BIRTHA HOVAY SEV||

JO PAATHAR KEE PAEE(N) PAAE|| TIS KEE GHAAL AJAEE JAAEY||

Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee angrily said, “It is worthless to worship stones as Gods, and serve them. Then what is the difference between stones and a picture? A picture is just paper with colours on it. What else is in them? Nothing. As Hindus worship idols in the form of stones, Muslims bend up and down towards Mecca, similarly you (Baba Nand Singh Jee) are worshiping idols in the form of picturesâ€. Seeing Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale furious, Baba Nand Singh Jee said “Giani Jee! You yourself have said that God is present everywhere. If God is everywhere, then is he not also in the stones?

RANG SABHE NARAYANE JETAY MAN BHAAVAN

God who is present everywhere, present even in stones, glass, and colours. Gurmat does not give permission to worship stones like Naamdev and Dhanaa, but like them our devotion should be just as strong.†Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee answered by quoting Bhai Gurdas Jee “GUR MOORAT, GUR SHABAD HAIâ€. Meaning: the embodiment of the Guru is the Gurmantar/Shabad. Everything else is false including stones and pictures.

Baba Nand Singh Jee replied “Giani Jee! do no bend Gurbani by making it follow you, instead you should be following Gurbani. “GURMOORAT†meaning the body and appearance of the Guru is also “Gurmooratâ€. The Shabad of the Guru is also “Gurmooratâ€. The important thing is whichever one your devotion fixates, that is where you should stay because that is where you will meet God. We should look at the lives of the Bhagats and reflect on them. Our devotion to God should be just as great by which even stones can come to life. Stones have not been given any authority. No Avtar elevated the Vedas and Shaastaras to his level. Guru Gobind Singh Jee on the other hand has given Guru Granth Sahib Jee his own place and authorityâ€.

Hearing all of this, Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee became all the more furious. Giani Jee was about to speak when Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee stopped him and said “Giani Jee, one should not argue with Mahapursh like Baba Nand Singh Jeeâ€. Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee obeyed Jathadar Jee and remained silent. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee looked towards Baba Nand Singh Jee and requested “Baba Jee, please give us a glimpse of Sach Khandâ€. Baba Nand Singh Jee accepted his request and asked one of his sevadars to take Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee, Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee, and the Vidhyarthees to Sachkhand. In Sachkhand everyone with the exception of Giani Gubachan Singh Bhindranwale bowed in reverence. The reason for this is because all around Sachkhand there were pictures of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Baba Nand Singh Jee knew all of this. He said Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee is very proud of his knowledge. He does not realize what is good and what is bad. With what little knowledge he has of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, the world will give him respect.

A few days later Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee came back to Baba Nand Singh Jee. He bowed in reverence and asked for forgiveness as he thought Baba Nand Singh Jee would be angry with him because of the behavior of Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee said “Baba Jee, please forgive me, I am but a mere dog at your doorâ€. Baba Nand Singh Jee answered, “Jathadar Jee, I am not angry at you or Giani Gurbachan Singh Jee. You should not have even had such a thought in your mindâ€.

MOORAKH SIO NAH LOOJH PRANEE

HAR JAPIEAY PADH NIRBANI HAI||

If a Mahapurkh cannot recognize the good and bad of a person, he is just ignorant. Jathadar Gurdial Singh Jee was a great scholar of Gurbani. He lived his life in accordance to the teachings of Gurbani. That is why he recognized Baba Nand Singh Jee’s greatness and received Baba Jee’s blessings, and settled in Boparami Nagar. Giani Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale never again met Baba Nand Singh jee in Baba Jees remaining years.

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NOTE: I do not support the views of this story in anyway. I translated this from Anand Chamatkar which is the official Nanaksar biography of Baba Nand Singh Jee. I respect Sant Gurbachan Singh jee very dearly.

[Guest]

Welcome to the site Singh47. Let me ask you few questions.

1. What are we going to discuss after reading your post/translation? You have it under formal discussion and debate section.

2. Can you scan that page and upload online please?

Please, let us know if you want to discuss any point.

[Guest]

Yeah, if you are here to create controversies about BrahmGyanis, then this is not the place. If you do not believe in this, why post it? I can understand you posting this, saying you do NOT agree and then making your argument, but what do you hope to achieve by indirectly making no points on purpose, to create doubts.

[Guest Singh47]

Truth, thanks for welcoming me.

1. Actually, I originally put it on the general discussion section. But it seems someone may have moved it to the formal debate section. Perhaps one of the moderators would like to debate something on this.

2. I don’t have a scanner. But I will try to find one. It is ten pages in total. I would be more then happy to answer any other question about this article.

Sehejleen Kaur Pan Jee, why would I want to create a controversy? Just because I translate a few pages doesn’t make me a villain. What do you find so objectionable on this article? after all, it is from Nanaksars own sources...

[Guest]

I moved this topic to formal debate and discussion. Thinking of you want to have discussion since this was posted sikhism question/answers.

If you dont want to have any discussion or views on this.. then i can move it to inspirational section... let me know..

[Guest Singh47]

It's all up to you Veer N30 Singh.

[Guest]

I would appreciate if you will scan those pages and make Zip file and upload. I want to read original discussion in book's language. I'm just curious about it.

[Guest Singh47]

Truth, like I mentioned before, I don’t have a scanner. But I will try to find one. Furthermore, if you live near a Nanaksari Gurdwara you can go there and ask them for Anand Chamtkar. It comes in 5 volumes, each volume contains an additional 3-5 sub-volumes. The story I translated is from the 4th volume of Anand Chamatkar.

Futhermore, email me, so I can have your email address. When I find a scanner I can scan it and email it to you. But do try going to the Nanaksari Gurdwara. They will have Anand Chamatkar for sure, and just borrow it from them. They are very generous people.

[Guest]

The story is absolutely true, I've read this myself, however, I would like to know why 'Singh' does not.

[Guest]

Sorry I missed these lines in Singh47's post.

I do no stand by the opinion expressed in this story

I do not support the views of this story in anyway

Why? Can you elaborate?

[Guest Singh47]

Although I have respect for Baba Nand Singh Jee because of his Bhagti and Tapp. But in the story I support the views of Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindrawala. By that I mean I support his stance on the Mul Manter and his stance against idol worship. By translating this article I did not want people to have the wrong impression that I support Mul Mantar up to Nanak Hosie Bhi Sach and idol worship (Sargun Puja) in the form of stone statues, or pictures.

Also, I think that the language in the article was a bit hostile towards Sant Gubachan Singh Jee Bhindrawala. I did not particularly support that. It should have been a bit more courteous. But you don’t find many articles, which show discussion between two well-known Mahpursh.

[Guest]

I dont see anything wrong with the Sargun Saroop of vaheguroo.

I wanted to stress on the point, what you think sargun pooja might be seeva or out of respect for others.. i mean where you the draw the line??

If prem bhakt is soo infused with sargun saroop of vaheguroo..the who can even dare tellin him its wrong do worship.. as you jat dhana story.. he got vaheguroo pragat from the stone... only thing he was lacking before was full faith and shardha in his murshad bachan

Show me where in sikhi it says its wrong to have sargun saroop of vaheguroo ie- Guroo Nanak Sahib Nirankar or even saints while you do simran or do seeva!!

[Guest Singh47]

N30 Singh Jee I don’t support the view that Dhana Jee got darshan of Vaheguru through Sargun Puja. When he was a Vaishnava like all of the rest of the Bhagti Movment Saints he did idol worship of a Vaishnava avatar (Krishan/Raam). But I believe that with Guru Nanak Dev Jee’s influence and Kirpa he turned away from Vaishnav Avtars and Sargun Puja. After his Kirpa I believe he like Ramanand Jee, Kabir Jee etc became a Bhagat of Vaheguru through Nirgun Puja.

Vaheguru is formless. Then how can he be obtained through Sargun Puja? We can only get him through listening to the Shabad/Naam that was given to us by Guru Nanak Patshah.

[Guest]

Singh47, You have written few interesting points in your discussion. Do you know there is 9 types of Bhagti/worship?

[Guest]

Also, I think that the language in the article was a bit hostile towards Sant Gubachan Singh Jee Bhindrawala. I did not particularly support that. It should have been a bit more courteous. But you don’t find many articles, which show discussion between two well-known Mahpursh.

Lets look at couple of scenarios-

- Author of that book might have manipulated this event into his own word.

- If this writing is exactly the 100% replica of what exactly happened between two mahapursh talking. Which i very much doubt soo even then there is nothing wrong with it. As you know baba nand singh ji maharaj was existed in the times of sant baba sunder singh ji who was a teacher of sant baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale. Most likely, sant baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale was in his teenage years that day..still yearnin for bhramgyan.

[Guest Singh47]

N30 Singh, I think you may be right about that. But you have to admit, Sant Gurbachan SIngh jee was not wrong about idol worship. Anand Chamatkar is accepted by Nanaksar as being authentic portrayal of Baba Nand SIngh Jee's Jeevnee.

[Guest Singh47]

Singh47, You have written few interesting points in your discussion. Do you know there is 9 types of Bhagti/worship?

Are you refering to Niayaa, Davaitaa, Vedandaa, Yog(a)etc? those are different schools of thought and sciences. They are interesting to understand. Not many Hindus actually follow those schools of thought anymore because of secular and western influance.

Also I dont think that these are different ways of worship. I think they are different types of sciences.

[Guest]

I'm refering to "nauda Bhagti" and it's interesting subject to discuss.

[Guest]

N30 Singh, I think you may be right about that. But you have to admit, Sant Gurbachan SIngh jee was not wrong about idol worship. Anand Chamatkar is accepted by Nanaksar as being authentic portrayal of Baba Nand SIngh Jee's Jeevnee.

Singh47,

Here are nine types of bhakti:

Sarvan Bhakti- Listen to Katha with full concentration.

Kirtan Bhakti- Signing Hymns Of Gurbani with full concentration.

Simran Bhakti- Doing bhakti alone.. reciting on gurmantar or vaheguroo, maala-naam jaap.. vaheguroo vahegurooo vahegurooo!!!

Namskar Bhakti- Doin Namskar (Humbly Bow Down) to guru granth sahib ji and be inferior to everyone even animals not just gursikhs..every living being.. vahegurooo

ARJAN Bhakti-

Ardas- Humbly Praying to akal purkh(god) before any important task to do.

Dasam Pab- Be Inferior And Praise Gurus as highest of the high

Sakhaya Sakhi Pab- Love vaheguroo like from one mitr(freind) to another mitr(freind)

Atam Nividan- Scarifice everything to vaheguroo.. its everything... basically completely surrender to vaheguroo ji (sargun)....tan and mann completely scarifice to vaheguroo . thats when you get atam mukhti.

Now if you look at the last bhakti "Atam Nividan" you will find that almost all the mahapursh (doesnt matter if they are from damdam takshali, nanaksar , rara sahib or anyone else) all of them did surrender to siri guroo granth sahib and their murshad(teachers). They served siri guroo granth sahib ji by serving (seeva) their teachers . Its just matter of perception that serving their teacher (ie- fan them, prepare water for their inshanan, do massage, serve them food) basically be murda servin them looks idol worship to you...

As gurbani further states-

Murda hoya na Murid Gali Hov na : Bhai Gurdas Ji

This little verse from gurbani gives you deep defination of what actually Murda (Livin Dead) is!!!!!!!!

[samosasingh]

I would have to agree with N30 on this one. I am reading anad chamatkaar right now but have not come to that story yet. Baba Gurbachan Singh writes himeself writes that Moolmanter is up to Nanak Hosee Bhee Sach, in all his books and taksal is very wel known for this. And he also writes that it is ok to put pictures of Guru Saheb or shaheeds and bhagats in Guru Jees Room/Gurdwara and they should be respected as such (From Gurmat Rehni). Nanaksar and Taksal seem to have very, very similar maryadas. Sikhi is a vast as God, there are many ways of respecting and reaching God even within Sikhi. It all comes down to naam Jap which they both did. Giani Sunder Singh also held paats for "SARBAT DA BHALLA" and had the sangat do ardaas that Baba Nand Singh would attend, saying that he was the "roop of nirankar" at that time in the world. I think Baba Gurbchan Singh might have been just been young and may have learned in a different way, that clouds our perception and understanding. It was I think also a time that alote of people were against pictures, Lighting jots, dhoof and puratan Sikhi in general. Look many amritdharis fight amongst themselves over certain issues like raagmala, meat, pad-ched etc, etc. Does it mean that they are not accepted in Sach Khand or cannot attain Brahm Gyaan? I wouldn't think so, it is the love in your heart that is the biggest thing that is looked at. That is my take on it. This story does not be-little Giani Gurbachan Singh, I would say.

[Guest]

This story does not be-little Giani Gurbachan Singh, I would say.

I agree with this.

[Guest Singh47]

“Atam Nividan- Scarifice everything to vaheguroo.. its everything... basically completely surrender to vaheguroo ji (sargun)....tan and mann completely scarifice to vaheguroo . thats when you get atam mukhti.â€

N30 Singh Jee, I agree that one should surrender completely to Vaheguru. But I don’t agree to Sargun Saroop. Vaheguru is formless, he is Nirgun. One can worship Krishan or Raam in the forum of Sargun Puja by making their Moortis, pictures. But Vaheguru is formless, then how can he be worshiped in the form of pictures of statues? Gurmat teaches us against “Buth Puja†i.e. idol worship (sargun). This is how people use to worship before Guru Nanak taught them about Nirgun Puja.

Neither are we suppose to hold pictures as being sacred. As Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee said himself “A picture is just paper with colours on it. What else is in them? Nothing!â€. Dasam Patshah gave us Guru Granth Sahib to hold sacred, not pictures. Let us progress towards Gurmat and leave paganistic idolatry behind.

[Guest]

Singh47, how can you surrender to vaheguroo (nirgun) form when you havent understood the concept of sargun and nirgun at the first place?

Bhakti starts from sargun saroop and ends in nirgun (oh anand da sagar vaheguroo).

Bhai lehna ji who did sargun saroop di seeva [Guroo nanak sahib nirankar] who was nirgun himself became Guru Angad dev ji after doing murda vargi seeva and did excessive naam simran.

[Guest Singh47]

Samosa Singh Jee, Damdami Taksal is against idolatry in the form of pictures. There is nothing wrong with pictures. But it is against Taksal(Gurmat) to give them religious respect. Just recently there in the village of Talhan in Jallandar we all heard about the so-called caste wars between the Jats and Chamars. But the truth is it was a war between Sikhs and Hindus. The Chamars of Talhan began idolatry by giving special respect to the pictures of Bhagat Ravidas Jee in the Gurdwara of Baba Nihal Singh Jee. The Sikhs of Talhan did not like this so they called in Damdami Taksal to solve the problem. Damdami Taksal sent Bhai Mokham Singh Jee to Talhan. The first thing he did was to throw out all pictures because people were going against Gurmat and giving them respect like Hindus.

Keeping pictures is fine. But to give them religious respect is against Gurmat. Bani is the Moorat of the Guru. “BANI GURU, GURU HAI BANIâ€. A Photo or picture can never be guru.

I personally keep photos of Shaheeds. That is fine. It’s good to honour them. But one should not worship photos as if they are gurus.

[Guest]

Ok singh47,

According to the gurmat there are various ways to do naam simran,

What if one of my way is to have sargun saroop of guroo nanak sahib nirankar or sant maharapursh when i m doing naam simran?? Because it helps me in the naam simran. I might even have pictures of guroo maharajs and sant maharaj in my very room...

Is this manmaat??

I dont think so mate!!!!