drawrof Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hello everyone, okay, I am going to throw another hook out to everyone! I met a person and both her grandfathers were udasi's. she had mentioned how initially they weren't keshdaari but with time took to that route... well, we had a neat discussion....for my bro's/sis's on the net who are interested in their specific interests...the dadaji was a medicant who was supposedly well renouned for his potions, and he would also give tuks of gurbani for recitation alongside the medicine. The nanaji was less into the potions and more into the bachan bilas. Now, I was talking to the granddaughter the other day and the topic of drugs came about. I realised something that actually made sense to me although others have re-iterated this before..... it is not about what is right and wrong, but more about what is beneficial/useful and detrimental/harmful..... my thinking for this is that we always judge things based on what collective society values and does not value. In essence, her grandfathers used drugs in their potions to cure...so drugs were not necessarily bad (in that situation). An udasi in hardwar had given her dad a soota and that was used for abyaas purposes, would that make the soota wrong? my honest answer is that it is personally not going to enhance or maybe even feel right for those who are already in touch with something higher (although it may not affect them...I can't speak from personal experience)...... well getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe drugs have been condemned but the misuse and dependency on them has been challenged, what do others think? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 If you look at all the medicinal granths written by Nirmale and Udasis they include the use of drugs such as cannabis, opium, datura etc.. as well as wine. The use of these only started to be criminalised during the colonial era whereas the Gurus clearly condemned the abuse of those drugs. There is a clear difference between both attitudes. Tat Khalsa aplogists use gurbani to defend the colonial attitude whereas history and traditional SIkh medicine clearly prove sthem wrong. Abuse of intoxicants is strictly taboo but the moderate and intelligent use of the above mentioned substances is accepted. In fact I suggest you take a look at Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha's Gurmat Martand where those substances are clealy mentioned as being acceptable as long as they are not abused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernal Monk Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 This sounds interesting, but what about the addictive properties of these drugs? I mean you say they are O.K. when taken in moderation, but if you become addicted then moderation is out the window. Just thought I'd throw this into the mix for your views on it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaapaaraa Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 okay, I am going to throw another hook out to everyone! lol true .... just noticed the hook looks like a question mark 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaapaaraa Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 This sounds interesting, but what about the addictive properties of these drugs? I mean you say they are O.K. when taken in moderation, but if you become addicted then moderation is out the window. Just thought I'd throw this into the mix for your views on it. hanji, true.. same can be said for anythin in life... too much of anythin is not good for you.... same goes to codin/programming all day, can't really moderate it !! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Well sugar is addictive, tea and coffee are addictive: anything can be addictive when not taken in moderation. One more thing: I am not saying it's ok (though I do not have a problem with it) but I am just refering to the documents which talk about it and Bhai Kahn SIngh Nabha in particular. that's it. addiction is the absolute evil: that's true! but intelligent and moderate use of the substances within certain contexts was not problematic in a pre-colonial Sikh context! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 so its ok to have a few pints now and again? :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Iron Bangle wrote: so its ok to have a few pints now and again? Absolutely not!!! :evil: You are refering to 1. the practice of social drinking: absolutely taboo! 2. Beer: absolutely taboo as well for kshatriya maryada! The sources quoted by Bhai Kahn SIngh Nabha talk about wine only and to its use in a kshatriya context. The Dharma shastras specify very clearly that a kshatriya may use wine on three occasions: 1.when eating (like the mediteranean use of wine i.e. a glass and that's it), 2. before going to war and 3.when making love Being drunk is absolutely taboo and so is social drinking (Bhai Desa SIngh rahitnama says that it should be done in privacy). Also the type of alcohol is important : kshatriya maryada forbids any alchol made out of grains (beer, desi daru, whisky, vodka etc...). Only wine made out of grapes is permissible because it is less intoxicant and good for one's health. Alcohol made out of grains are a sign of barbarity. Again I am only describing what the sources say and I am not in any way trying to tell people what to do or not to do. Also remember that I am referring to Bhai Kahn SIngh Nabha. I am personally firmly opposed to social drinking even at weddings where rivers of sharab are shamelessly consumed as status symbol. But I would be cautious to mix anglo-saxon drinking habits adopted by Panjabis with mediteranean drinking habits which are healthy and non-intoxicating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Lalleshvari ji, Can you kindly post page number from that book in which khastriya context is mentioned? Also, please let us know if Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji is refering Sikhism Maryada or it is just a Kshatriya maryada as caste category? Also, can you tell us when you say "kshatriya maryada" then is this for Sikhism Maryada or Kshatriya Maryada as a caste category? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Where's my post? I don't remember being drunk when I wrote it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 When I refer to kshatriya maryada I don't refer to caste as kshatriyas are not a caste (jati) but a varna. Nihangs and other amritdhari shastardhari SInghs are expected to live by the rules of kshatriya maryada as they are shastardhari. I will provide you with the page numbers this week when I go to the BL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 laalesh, kshatriyas wear a janeu too, so do nihangs also wear that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Gur Fateh! On the topic of Kshatriya Maryada, I have often mentioned this myself in the past on this forum. Someone once questioned me on this indicating that the (Rajput) Kshatriyas refused to take Amrit from the Sarabloh Bata on account of not sharing food from the same bata as perceived lower castes, so how can I refer to Khalsa Singhs as being Kshatriyas and following a Kshatriya Maryada. I did explain to the individual concerned that the incidence he describes is correct and is the very incidence that allows answering his question. It is at the time of refusal by the (Rajput) Kshatriyas of partaking in the Amrit Sanchar, that Guru Gobind Singh is reputed to have stated that the 'real' warriors (Kshatriyas) will now be formed (i.e. not a hereditary caste, but a genuine noble warrior)... ...Kshatriya Maryada, or loosely, Warrior Code, Traditions, Ethics are all inter-related...see the discussion on the Hagakure for further examples... All focus on Death (Maha Kaal) and indeed, Maryada is there to achieve that end (Mar = Death, Yada = To remember...) Humbly, Niranjana 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 To Iron Bangle gatra and kirpan is our janeu which is worn in the opposite direction than the janeu of the Brahmins and yes many Nirmala and Nihangs do wear a small kard attached to a string like a janeu but never in the same direction than that of the Brahmins or non-sikh kshatriyas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 gatra and kirpan is our janeu which is worn in the opposite direction than the janeu of the Brahmins and yes many Nirmala and Nihangs do wear a small kard attached to a string like a janeu but never in the same direction than that of the Brahmins or non-sikh kshatriyas. But why do Sikhs put on things like Janeu after all... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Why keep kakkars? Janeu is an old Indo Aryan tradition and represents the keeping of certain vows and values. the three upper varnas wear it and so do Zorosatrians. It is true that from the point of view of the Absolute it does not matter but so does the turban or even kesh! But from the point of view of practice it is important as we all have a body and think partly with our body. The kakars are a physical reminder of important spiritual truths. Our janeu is the gatra and the kirpan and it's definetly not the same as teh janeu of the Brahmins! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOYce Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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