Where is your Dastaar???

[SAadmin]

source: http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022004/mallika_france_ban.htm

Where is your dastaar

Mallika Kaur

Whenever we look back at our history, we find someone to blame. We find someone who made a mistake. We find the coward who succumbed to fear or domination. We find the traitor who went for greener pastures.

Whenever we talk about our Gurus, we talk of the high ideals. We talk about how we should never stand for second best, rather live up these ideals. We talk of shaheedis, we praise the warriors, the soldiers, the Khalsa.

Whenever we tell our kids about what we think they need to know, we tell them to find good sangat, to look for good examples, but most of all believe in the Guru. We tell them that they need to make a niche for themselves, never giving in to pressure, yet always respecting others.

Whenever we praise someone’s efforts, we tell them to persevere in them, to not quit, to remain in Chardi Kala. We tell them that with the guru’s kirpaa, they have been chosen to take initiative, the lead, the fore—and they must not disappoint the panth.

Whenever we introspect and say that we “Chose to be a Sikh”, we mean it was a conscious decision, not some birth right, but a way of life we have adopted. Not something forced down our throats, rather an acceptance of the Hukkum.

Whenever we need to tell the world, our kids, and ourselves, why thousands of Sikhs vanished, we find plenty of reasons and plenty of culprits. Some of us have different ideas, but we find many people to lay the onus on faulty leadership, an eerie conspiracy, heinous acts out of jealousy, and insecurity.

We are going to commemorate events from 20 years ago, but are we forgetting what is happening in our midst, only an ocean away, in our very lifetime? Is the threat to people who we believe to be a part of the valuable panth small because it is not happening to us? Or is it small because they will not be burnt, raped or murdered, just shorn of their dastaars? Has it always been empty rhetoric when we said, “I’d rather lose my head than my dastaar.” If it is just something we say to make us feel good, then let us stop now.

If you disagree then what about the 5000 brothers or sisters an ocean away—aren’t they going to be beheaded! Does it not matter to us because they are only 5000 Sikhs there? Then why do we make the mighty statements of “one person oppressed, is one too many!”

I don’t really see how we can make our kids sing “We are the Khalsa” or scream jaikaaraas of “Raj karegaa…”, when kids of other Sikhs are not even being allowed in schools!

I don’t see the point of telling people about 1984, when we can’t take interest in what is happening in 2004! When we become a part of our history, and we already are, because every day becomes history right when the sun sets, young Sikh children today and future generations will point fingers at us and say “they were too busy to worry about the community's welfare…” At that time we will have no one to blame but ourselves. Who can we blame for not noticing the grace that the Guru has bestowed on us by making us aware of this injustice. We are blessed to be living comfortably in a country where we can voice our concern at the fate of Sikhs in France without risking our necks.

We are callous enough to sometimes blame people who (while their thighs were being pulled apart, nails torn out and genitals shocked) blurted secrets that got many of their comrades killed. Yet we really don’t find time to at least tell the world that we, the Sikhs, do exist and do care about other Sikhs, all around the world.

What’s the use of us planning changes in the land ruled by severe oppression, when we can’t make small efforts—the click of a mouse, the dialing of a phone, the writing of a letter—sitting in the land where we are safe and have rights?

Erroneous, discriminatory and hatred ridden thinking catches like wildfire. Are we so dense that we have already forgotten this? While we make plans to make people remember the mistakes of the past and always quote “those who forget their history, are bound to repeat it”, we are neglecting the present. Is this really what the gurus taught?

I don’t think I can look another child in the eye, knowing that there is the possibility that on a “study abroad program for foreign language development” to Europe while she is in college, she might be singled out, taken out of line, and asked to remove her “headgear.”

I feel we are giving in too easy. “It’s a political issue, don’t get too involved,” is a very shameful thing for one Sikh to say to another! Sikhs are a political people. When did the guru ask us to be apolitical? It feels pathetic to tell people that Sikhs carry kirpaans to defend the defenseless, when they can’t make time to help their own sisters and brothers in need.

Sikhaan di Matt uuchii

Sikhaan nu Sikhi daan, Kesh daan, bibek daan, visaah daa

sarbat da bhala

I don’t see how we can even say our most important ardaas when we are living under the thread of losing our identity.

This is a worrying matter. And I am bent on making you worry. I neither want you or myself, to be one of the many cowards, traitors, hypocrites, liars, that our children will look down at tomorrow. If this comes to any kid in France or elsewhere saying “dada, what happened to your dastaar?” Shame not on those who were or those who will be.

Shame on us!

[Guest Javanmard]

Very sad indeed but I ass my own comment to this situation. The whole campaign for the right to wear turban in France was miserably orchestrated! I am sorry to say this but it's true. First of all we have ex-ISYF (terrorist group banned after 9/11) trying to opportunistically take over the matter!

Secondly we have people who think that petitions etc.. will work with the French government! I lived for a long time in France, I studied there and evern taught there and may I say something: the peopel who orchestarted the campaign have no idea of French politics and the French in general.

France is not the US UK or Canada!!!!

The SIkh community in France itself, dominated by AKJ, babbar khalsa and ISYF has a long history of problems with French justice due to fights in the Bobigny gurdwara which is also used a place for illegal immigrants. None of the kids speak Panjabi properly and the parents have no idea of what French society is about.

The report on laicite had been announced well in advance but the SIkh in Paris did not intervene because they were preocupied by Khalistan!!!

Worst thing is the fact that there was no coordination with other religious communities!

I am a member of two research teams at the university of Paris and I know that when I go to the meetings in the future I will break the law and you know what: I'll do it with pride!

Anyone trying to take my dastar off will get a kick in the teeth!!!!!

Stupid laws are there to be broken!!!!

I'll break the law because I am a knight of Guru Gobind SIngh!!!

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

vahegurujikakhalsa

vahegurjikifateh

dear gursikhs brothers and sistas

we seem to hear a lot off hot air from certain ppl on here, when it comes to doing things ie something positive for the quam we get ppl saying I know better and done this that and everything under the sun. Well less talk and get ur ass down to paris and try and do sum thing for the sikhs of France instead off criticising and mocking others who have at least tried. It’s easy to sit on ur fat ass and make statements and labelling other Sikhs as TERRORISTS and ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS one would think it was a right wing nutter who was saying these sweeping statements not a fellow sikh.

As for fights in the Gurdwara ive stayed in paris and know the singhs there and they seem to get on with each other as shown in the demo last weekend at least they got 3000 sikhs there when there is only about 5000 sikhs in the whole of France while the demo my the Muslim community of 5 MILLION got 10000 ppl. Look at the positives rather then bash our fellow brothers and sistas

The Sikhs in France are in a learning curve it’s their first battle to get established, hopefully they will learn how to deal with the French establishment and with Guru ji kirpa we will win as all ways we do.

If u got some thing to offer them go and give ur expert help they are crying for French speaking Sikhs don’t just bash them for trying.

Most of the Gursikhs out in France have done active service back home so don’t worry they can handle themselves.

Well I did not got on the demo but I will not criticise fellow Sikhs who are trying and engaging themselves to do sewa for Sikhi. We love to bash the gursikhs who put their life on hold and take the path guruji wants us to take.

One more benti do Ardaas for these Gursikhs who did the great escape wow that was amazing Guruji’s Kirpa

Akaaaaaal

Take care

Sukdev singh

[Guest]

fully agree with SSJ :bravo:

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Sukhdev SIngh

1.For having lived there for a long time I know what I am talking about

2. I do ardas for our brothers out there and my full concern is for the youngsters who were born in France, are French and are treated like shit by the French government

3. The only problem is with the community leaders who have not been able to represent our interests in the best way, Fact is that the French government had announced the Stasi report a good year ago and asked for the communities to manifest themsleves as to know what their poistion was. Now these leaders act suprised but had they actually been more involved in the affairs of the country they're living in rather than constantly dreaming about establishing some Khalistan they could have anticipated the law

4. Recent articles in the Figaro and le Monde prove that these community leaders are spreading AKJ representations of Sikhi and I refuse to be represented by those people.

5. To resist the law would imply attacking the very notion of laicite which few people (and specially those who prefer to think about Khalistan instead of taking part with the proper debates of French society) are able to do. One needs to know French history, philosophy and politics very well which these community leaders unfortunately don't.

6. Having said that I admire the kids and love for having known them personally. They are absolutely chardi kala and I wish we had more of those kids around here in Britain. They live in peace with their Muslim and Christian friends and are not biggoted as a lot of Southall kids are! There is this one kid, Gurjit who came on TV and radio one day because he saved the people who lived in his building when it was burning down! You should have seen his face and the genuine kindness of this kid. I have never seen a kid who had so much seva in his heart and actions in my whole life and to be honest I envy him!!! A few months after that event he was forced to cut his hair because of school and you could see the dukh in his eyes! Do you sincerely think that I did not feel pain in my heart? Do you sincerely think that I didn't want to kill those bastards to forced that young child into that!!!! But I can tell you as well that I was equally angry at the community leaders who couldn't do anything but talk about Khalsitan 24/7 instead of dealing with the real issues. I am angry because none of the gianis in that gurdwara speak French or are able to present Sikhi in French! Thank God Karamvir and other older youngsters take care of their younger brothers!!!! Regarding the fights, illegal immigrants and terrorists: you've been there a few times: I have been there for years!!!!

5. My contribution? I do it each time I go to Paris at the University of the Sorbonne where I am a member of two research teams. Each time I go there I break the law, each time I go there I am asked to remove my dastar but you know what? I refuse you know why? Because I am a knight of Guru Gobind Singh,I am free and I don't need AKJ or ISYF to fight for my dastaar: I can defend myself and my Sikhi with the vidya and physical strength Maharaj gave to me! I don't need you, or AKJ, or ISYF or anyone to tell me how to defend my dastar in France! I know the country and I know how to destroy their arguments!

Stupid laws are there to be broken and I gladly break them if they are against Sikhi!

judge me if you want: I don't care! All I know is this: I will enter French Government buildings with my dastar and I will not remove this gift of Maharaj!!!!I do not need AKJ or ISYF to represent me: bottomline!!!

[commander]

...judge me if you want: I don't care! All I know is this: I will enter French Government buildings with my dastar and I will not remove this gift of Maharaj!!!!I do not need AKJ or ISYF to represent me: bottomline!!!

Ha ha ha.. that's the spirit! Jo Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal! 8)

[Baba Manochal]

LOL

again i think sukhdev singh's message has been missed, the point he is making is that we should all make an effort to help each other. Lallesvari what you do is fine for you, you not removing your turban is fine for you, but what about helping somebody else?

If the people are from the AKJ or from the ISYF will you stand back and watch while they are forced to remove their turbans!?

You dont wish to be represented by them, and you continously state that they have no idea about what to do in this scenario, while you yourself do know what action should be taken.

Well here's a suggestion, why dont you use your expert knowledge to actually help these people then?!

For those youngsters who you admire so greatly, why not do something to help them? YOU not taking off YOUR turban when YOU go to france, will not stop the govt from doing as it wishes.

So try thinking of the bigger picture, if you have something of value to offer the people fighting for their rights then do so. If your just going to sit back feeling good about yourself with your inside info and just going to laugh at their attempts then your an idiot.

From your post you sound so very arrogant, you make yourself sound like your the only person wearing a dastar in france!

again i repeat you can do as you like, but what about the rest?!

also are you saying that using your 'physical vidiya' you would commit violence? Is that what you suggest all the sikhs of france do then? carry on wearing their dastaar's and if provoked or if an attempt is made to remove them then 'kick their teeth in'? Surely there can be a better solution as oppossed to getting every turban wearing sikh in france imprisoned under assault charges!

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Baba Manochal-Sukhdev Singh Jhamka (why the need for two separate identities? are you schyzophrenic?)

1. A tiger always seems arrogant from the point of view of a cat! :wink:

2. AKJ are not SIkhs and ISYF are terrorists (banned in most civilised countries after 9/11): I don't care about them because they're just not SIkhs!

3. I will join my efforts to proper Gursikhs NOT with Ram Raias and terrorists!!!

4. As per maryada it is forbidden to take our dastars off: I do not know why you call me arrogant just for keeping the maryada?

5. Anyone knowing the Frech government knows that negotiation is not possible: concessions and rights have to be fought for by protest and repeated disobediance but then again I can't blame you for not knowing that as you obviously have not lived in France!

6. Seems dear Baba Manochal-Sukhdev Singh Jhamka that the sad truth is that it is the Indian government's diplomatic action that is going to help lift the ban on turbans in France. You have no idea of Realpolitik for otherwise you would have known that petitions and marches don't work anything with the French government specially not with the bloody colonial history they have!!! I am very cynical when it comes to such grand scale actions "for the sake of the SIkh nation" where AKJ and ISYF take those opportunities to do their own propaganda!

[Dynamic_Banda]

Its amazing how rather then ask for the right to wear turban in france, protestor shout "KHALISTAN.. ZINDABAD. " lol nice ultimatum being given there.. we are here to ask for our turban wearing rights yet all the 3000 sikhs involved are screaming for khalistan.

If you couldn't get khalistan in punjab a pradominantly sikh state, you got no flying **** of a chance in getting it in france.

This is the problem with damn khalistanis, they never tackle the situation at hand.. insted they keep calling out for khalistan. I wouldn't be suprised if the next time the electricity turns off or the water or the garbage collectors dont come, or the milk man puts down one bottle of milk insted of two... They dont all wear their orange turbans and start screaming KHALISTAN ..

[Guest Javanmard]

I totally agree with Dynamic Banda!

In Paris (and elsewhere) the community leaders have no interest in participating in public debates unless it concerns them in particular. I have never seen a single Sikh march in France protesting against the unpopular mesures of the Jupe government. I really feel sorry for the kids...

[Baba Manochal]

There is a need for two seperate identities when two seperate people are inviolved in the conversation (are you just stupid?)

Again let me repeat the point that im trying to make,

What im trying to say is that if you have valuable insights into the way the system works their then why not do something positive!

You may not like mass scale events etc, but does that mean that you canot give any advice to people who are protesting? Is every sikh in france either akj or isyf? if not then why not at least help them? but no, you'd rather do nothing and sit there having a crack at other people!

Arrogant, i call you arrogant because of your high and mighty tone, you portray yourself as a 'knight of guru ji', and you seem happy in the sense that since you have the knowledge, everything else is fine and damn the rest to hell!

Methods used may well be wrong, but will you stand and educate people and do something yourself (for others)?

ps where are these gursikhs who you will join in this particular episode? where will they come from? where have they been so far?

And again yo mock the khalistani's, i agree shouting those slogans at such places wont benifit the current situation, but dynamic banda what do you suggest, and what have you done to help? how would you better the struggle to keep the sikh turban, when will you be taking this action you suggest to teh streets of france or elsewhere to put it into practice?

Again i ask you, do you condone violent action against the french authorities if they continue to pursue their intentions? would 'kicking their teeth in' be sufficient? Or are you somehow secretly hoping and perhaps wishing that the terrorists who you keep mentioning have a swipe at the french goverment!? Would that suffice as a kick to the french teeth?

You seem very happy to make sweeping comments like all akj are not sikhs and all isyf are terrorists! is every sikh who wears a orange dastaar or who involves themselves in the struggle for khalistan in some way or other part of the isyf? are they all terrorists? why your problem with all akj's do they all believe in keski and reject raag-malaa as gurbani? If somebody is an akj but believes in kesh and gurbani as gurbani are they still not sikhs!? be careful when you make such generalisations, there may well be people whom you include who are more beloved to vaheguru than yourself.

Finally please dont even start on tiger and cat similies, thats beyond childish and just confrontational, its a waste of time debating who is a cat and who is a tiger over the internet! face to face is another thing, but cyber warriors are generally not worth the time it takes to type the challenge or reply! anyway iv heard and read of you and your 'cough cough' tiger strength and conviction, so errrm believe me brother you can call me what you like it really doesnt bother me!

just waiting to hear of the 'tiger like' chap that kicks in the teeth of the french officials who try to remove his turban! or even something stronger... since the french dont listen to petitions and protests....

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

vahegurujikakhalsa

vahegurjikifateh

For a start I dnt need separate identities matey unlike some ppl look in the mirror what do u see?? That’s right well let the Sangat work that out.

All I said was instead off sitting on ur FAT ass do sum thing positive, not as an individual but a collective. Keep crying about the Gursikh khalistanis at least they have got off the asses and done something WHAT HAVE U DONE OR UR MATES the UK NIHANGS?? Dnt see u lot over there protesting with ur so-called gursikhs mates or r they busy in the clubs off London?? And I dnt agree with the protests I rather prefer DIRTECT ACTION

Yes ur very cynical and a sad idiot I think all that reading has got to ur head, try doing some langar the sewa instead off eating it.

Guruji given us a pair off hands am sure we dnt need the hindian govt to support us then again u and ur buddies are blind to the suffering of the Sikhs in hindia too.

Good luck with ur effort and DM dnt worry ive got the ur ardaas benti topic and am sure Guruji will hear ur Ardaas when we see each other and by the way no valentines programs this year lol

AKAAAL

DEG TEG FATEH

NEVER FORGET 84

Sukdev singh

[Guest]

This discussion has gone to personal attacks and there is nothing valueable is coming into this discusion. This thread is closed now unless there is something valueable to post. I will edit all the swearing/cursing later on.