What Quoran has offered to Humanity so far...

[Ideal Singh]

Please dont take this as direct attack on Quoran... thanx

Just an analysis based on the saying in Quoran... help taken from articles posted on Sikhnet...

What Quoran has offered to Humanity so far...

1. Kill the Infidels.

On IP 35-A, "The duty of JIHAD is far from being synonymous with that of war?" Koran 9:5 instructs the faithful to "slay such polytheists" wherever they are found. Koran 47:4 tells believers to strike off the heads of those who disbelieve. Sounds like war to me. Kill the infidels.

2. Liberty

Non-muslims are to be treated with threats if they don't accept Islam as their religion. How much liberty do people have in Islamic nations?

3. Fraternity - Brotherhood.

When you fundamentally deny someone of equality and liberty the question of fraternity does not arise...

4. Captive Womanhood

All Muslim women are captives, assuming they live their lives according to the Koran and the Prophet Muhammad. Islam does not recognize women as human beings. Just as American slave-owners considered African Americans to be three-fifths of a human, so Muslims consider women to be roughly one-fourth of a human. It's hard to beat Islam for all-around woman-hating. This sheer male-volence against all females is appalling, far-reaching and still flourishes today.

"Honor killing" is alive and well today. Directed only against women (now there's a surprise) "honor" killings punish women who have lost their virginity before marriage---even if they have been raped. In the Near and Middle East rigid Muslim fundamentalists take such things seriously, and consider death the proper punishment. We have walked on the moon, built space stations, mastered gene splicing, linked the entire globe with the Internet, and still, some of us believe it is morally correct to murder women because of their hymens. We still have a long, long way to go. Baby.

"In the matters of marriage, divorce and inheritance women are given the same rights as men." Koran 4:20 tells men that if they want to take one wife in place of another, feel free. They can trade in wives, like used cars. Of course there is no equivalent trade-in policy offered to women. Koran 4:3 says men should marry whichever women appeal to them, "two or three or four"---you know, shop around. Collect a whole set! One learned Mullah had eight wives in his harem, but justified it by adding up the numbers two, three and four, and figured he was still one shy since he was entitled to nine wives. But in reality only the Prophet, who received this Wisdom from On High (wasn't he lucky?), was allowed as many wives and he wanted. Mere mortals were "restricted" to four. Of course divorce is so easy (just say the magic words, like "Get outta here!" and you're divorced, no muss no fuss---really! True story.) that men can have innumerable wives in a lifetime.

The Prophet Muhammad had a baker's dozen wives, and countless concubines. The second female to occupy his newly forming harem was nine years old at the time of consummation. But the little girl, Aisha, was at least allowed to keep her toys and dolls with her when she was sent to Muhammad's bed.

5. Gender Equality

Further, in Quoran 4:34 men are described as being superior to women because Allah made them to "excel over the other" and because men spend money supporting women. I wonder how much thought was given to the fact that if men weren't considered superior, women could easily take care of themselves! In Koran 2: 223 wives are described as "tilled fields" that men should, literally, plow through. You know, have a good time, get some kids going. Equality, huh?

Muslim Paradise consists of males lounging on couches, being waited on by virgins who don't sleep, perspire, get pregnant, menstruate or ever get sick. And the men get to screw these nymphs forever and ever! No mention is made of how this could ever be considered "paradise" for the females.

6. Adultary

When stoning men and women for adultery (adultery meaning another man's property, one of his wives, has been tampered with), the offending male is to stand out in a clearing while people throw stones at him till he dies. If he manages to run away, and does escape, he's safe. Death sentence over. Kind of like the game, "Red Rover, Red Rover" that we used to play as kids. But the stakes are a bit higher. However, if a woman is to be stoned, a pit is to be dug, waist/chest high, and she is to be stuck in the hole in the ground, buried up to her chest, allegedly for "decency." Imagine a "decent" stoning. Wouldn't want to see any naught bits of her body while you're bashing her bloody! Tsk, tsk! Of course the semi-burial makes it impossible for her to escape, doesn't it? These still take place, in some countries, as I write.

Koran 4:34 instructs men on dealing with "rebellious" wives. First admonish; second kick them out of your bed (poor things!); and, if that doesn't do it, punish them. So, men are supposed to beat any really "rebellious" women. That's what the old slave masters used to say.

[Dalvir]

nice facts it seems very true as to what you have said. (no offence to any muslims)

[BAZ]

1. Kill the Infidels.

- this quote is taken out of context. First you have to understand the context and the time of revelation of that particular verse. After being persecuted as a minority and being driven from their homes the muslims were attacked again because of their religious belief in One God. Finally the revelation came down for them to fight back. At the same time rules were laid down and these rules incluse not to kill non-combattants, women and children. Not to burn crops and destroy the land etc etc.

2. Liberty

- please give some quotes from the Quran about this because i havnt heard it before. In that chapter Kaafirun (Unbelievers) it says:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Say : O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

This was revealed in Mecca after they were expelled from Madina.

3. Fraternity - Brotherhood

- whats wrong with a "brotherhood"? Is the Khalsa not a brotherhood? It all comes down to what brotherhood means to you.

4. Captive Womanhood

This is a load of rubbish. Do we all not marry women who appeal to us? Why have an unappealing wife?? Yes men were allowed to marry up to 4 women.. this was actually a restriction because men had previously been allowed to marry as many as they wanted. How many wives did Shri Ram's father have? Most of the Prophet Muhammads marriages were divorced or widowed women. Marriages of leaders like him were also to build alliances with allys. These marriages were also done to solidify certain Islamic laws which he would be an example of.

Aisha's marriage at such a young age was not a controversial issue at that time. Once a girl began having her period she was considered of marriagable age in that time and culture. Ask they ages of your grandmothers and great grandmothers at their time of marriage. Mine was 13 when she got married and it was arranged (hindu family too by the way).

Honour killings are in no way justified by any islamic law.

5. Gender Equality

"Tilling fields" is an analogy. You plant your seed to get something good out of this field. Whats wrong with that? This child that is born is also told that "Paradise is at the feet of your mother" according to one saying of the Prophet.

And as for the description of Paradise it is merely a visual image for a muslim at a basic level of undertanding to comprehend the pleasure of God. The first people to hear the message of Islam were desert arabs living in very harsh conditions. This description of heaven would give them some idea of the feeling of Gods pleasure and reward. As one developed in their Islam they begin to understand the deeper layers of meaning in the texts. The description of heaven is like a dream... visual representations for certain feelings, concepts and messages.

6. Adultary

Stoning is the punishment for adultry (married person cheating on their partner not an unmarried person having sex before marriage). HOWEVER.. there needs to be 3 witnesses... how often is that gonna happen? The family is considered the founding pillar of society so it is protected by a firm thick wall of laws such as this. This law is more of a deterant to stop someone from damaging their family.

As for this quote about "beating" your wife here is the explaination of all this:

If ones wife does something very immoral or against the religion the husband is to tell her first to stop. This would be something like drinking alcohol or dressing in a very provocative way etc. If she continues then the man is told to stop sleeping with her to show his displeasure at her actions. If she continues ONLY then can he SYMBOLICALLY hit her and ONLY with a "miswak" which is a tiny stick used to clean the teeth and only use this on her side and never her face. Thats like spanking your wife with a toothbrush on her bum. Its not gonna hurt. BUT there is also a saying of the Prophet that says "The best among you are those who are good to their wives".

If you want to know the truth you will search for it and find it. If you are happy to back up your own ignorence and only look for things to back up ignorence then that is what you will find. Baba Farid was an orthodox sunni muslim of the Chisti order of sufis who is highly respected and respected enough to have his writing in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If you want to understand Islam then look at it through his eyes and not through your own faulty vision that is clouded by ego.

[Mystical]

How many wives did Shri Ram's father have?

I dunno how many he's had I dont worship him, I worship the formless creater.

[BAZ]

As do I but if having a certain number of wives being a king or political leader in the past is a way of saying a man is morally corrupt then that is wrong and ignorent.

[drawrof]

As a sikh, I don't see why we have to belittle or put down any faith. It is said that there is no intention or malice put towards the koran sharif, but at the same time...why is it negative stuff that has been posted?

Here is my take on it, you had pakkay muslims of a higher order (meaning those who had cultivated a perception of god which is above the divisive nature of society....<with society being a manifestation governed by maya/illusion). You had muslims accept guru nanak as a pir, how else would he have entered mecca. He even revealed another world to a pir in baghdad (I believe a gurdwara still stands, although baghdad has been bombed like mad lately).

you had muslims such as mian mir and pir buddhu shah who read gurbani because of the peace they felt from it. Lets not use this or anyone else's like towards sikhi (or islam) as a way of getting points. when you die, your actions will be judged (and for those of us who'll have mukti, we're set ...dharam raj will hook us up) but my point here being that this new age way of propping faiths against each other instead of globally and communaly enjoying kudrat in its many forms is screwing us up.

These days, we are sikh because we are not hindu. or we are sikhs because we are not muslims.

Straight up guys, you can claim to be part of any faith but if you are looking for flaws and just plain logic to believe in a religion....do yourselves a favor and just become scientists . Love of god should govern adherence to a dharam.

I don't know about anyone else, but I feel sikhi is complete in itself...therefore I don't feel the need to put down any religion. Instead we should celebrate the commonality. Honestly, so what if a muslim feels they have the final word or if christians feel they have the final word (this point is being made at the base level)...everyone needs to prop theirselves and be grounded in one thing.

God created the world and everything underneath 2 opposites can co-exist (this is the hukam of akaal in kudrat).

It is evident from sikh history and websites such as www.sewapanthi.org that there have been a communal feeling of unity between factions of sikhs and muslims...

lets be sikhs, learn about islam...the fact that we can do that and then think of how great people of that faith have shown reverence to guru nanak, should reinforce our faith if experience hasn't.

[BAZ]

Good post Drawrof!

[drawrof]

I have said alot and may have seemed critical or harsh, my apologies for any thing said outside the confines of daya, but the only way to truly have an impact is to practice what one preaches. I typed in 'koran+wisdom' in google, and read this before posting, lets have something constructive. May everyone's dharam and allegiance to dharam strengthen through positivity.

SOME PEARLS OF WISDOM FROM THE QURAN

prepared by the Quranic Society of Malaysia

1. Believe in God and live righteously. (2:62, 112)

2. Worship God alone and do not associate Him with anyone or anything else. (17:22-23)

3. Do not fear mankind, but fear God. (5:44; 33:37, 39)

4. Respect and honor your parents. (17:23-24)

5. Enjoin good and forbid evil. (3:104)

6. Fight in the cause of justice and truth with your wealth and your lives. (4:75; 9:111)

7. Act justly, do not commit evil and rule according to God’s laws, i.e. justice, truth and mercy.

(4:58, 135; 5:8; 7:28-29; 5:44)

8. Perform prayers and other rites of worship, without quarrelling over methodology, and pay the poor-rate.

(98:5; 22:67)

9. Obey just leaders, respect, honor and support them, but do

10. Be an active, dynamic, creative and courageous person. (2:30-34; 4:75-77; 15:28-30)

11. Do not be egoistic and proud. (25:43; 17:37)

12. Treat everyone with civility and give greetings to all. (2:83; 28:55; 43:89; 4:86)

13. Hold firmly to principles, but be flexible in methods. (2:67-71, 142; 3:103; 5:54; 22:67)

14. Put moral considerations uppermost, but do not disregard your due material interests. (28:77)

15. Save lives and do not kill except in the cause of justice. (17:33)

16. Do not kill for fear of poverty. (17:31)

17. Do not practice usury, but practice charity. (2:275-80)

18. Be honest and fair in financial and economic dealings. (6:152)

19. Practice consultations to solve problems. (42:36)

20. Do not accept unverified information. (17:36)

21. Listen to all views and follow the best. (39:18)

22. Read in order to know, but read critically. (96:1-5)

23. Unite and do not divide. (3:103; 6:159; 61:4)

24. Fulfil promises. (17:34)

25: Do not practice bribery and corruption. (2:188)

26. Do not devour the properties of orphans. (17:34)

27. Do not be extravagant and wasteful, or stingy. (17:26-29)

28. Give charities to relatives, the poor and destitute and towards public welfare. (9:60; 17:26)

29. Do not aggress, but defend yourself against aggression. (7:33; 42:39)

30. Believers are brothers and make peace between believers. Avoid suspicion, spying and backbiting among believers. (49:9-10,12)

31. Persevere in any good effort and do not fear to face difficulties and hardships.

Success comes only after hardships. (2:45, 177; 94:5-8)

32. Use intelligence, reason and historical precedents to understand and carry out God’s commands.

(7:179; 8:22; 10:100; 12:111; 3:137)

33. Speak the truth. Do not lie, although stratagem is allowed against adversaries.

(8:7-8; 25:72; 33:70; 12:70-81)

34. Enter into marriage with believers, do not marry disbelievers, and do not commit adultery.

(5:5; 30:21; 17:32)

35. Cooperate and help each other in good works; do not cooperate in evil works. (5:2)

36. Eat and drink moderately, and avoid intoxicants and gambling. (7:31; 2:219)

37. Dress decently. (24:30-31)

38. Be kind and forgiving. (42:40,43)

39. Do not ridicule or mock one another. (49:11)

40. Do not ask about small and inconsequential details. (2:67-71; 5:101-102; 22:67)

[palm_w1]

Aisha's marriage at such a young age was not a controversial issue at that time. Once a girl began having her period she was considered of marriagable age in that time and culture. Ask they ages of your grandmothers and great grandmothers at their time of marriage. Mine was 13 when she got married and it was arranged (hindu family too by the way).

exactly what was aishas age when she married mohammed, and also what was his age at the time? does the answer to this seem appropriate for any one never mind such a 'great prophet'

[tSingh]

It would be helpful for others to look at the context of polygamy also.

For example, the Prophet (pbuh) did not marry another wife until his first wife had passed away. Furthermore, as was quite often the case in tribal conflict, marrying the daughter is a means of resolving inter-tribal disputes or even to take on a widow to ensure her safety. Not wishing to take an overly sociaological approach, it is worth keeping this in mind when looking at the context in which polygamy arises out of.

Secondly, the prophet by stating that up to 4 if you are capable of treating them equally was actually a reduction of what was the norm in Arabic society of the day where men were marrying onwards of 20 to 30 women. Again this is something overlooked by others.

On the issue of womanhood, others more versed than me can talk on the nature of feminity in Islam particularly the Shia tradition (I'm thinking of the hand of Fatimah for example), and the statement that 'they are not even human beings' is really off the mark. At a spiritual level the Qur'an clearly states that both men and women are equal. At a practical legal level there are differences, although again others ignore the fact that some shia women have put matah into practice (the temporary marriage contract) which can hardly be called captive!

[namjap]

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[Guest Javanmard]

Apart from copying and pasting cheap Sunnu stuff are you capable to write your own stuff?

[guv]

Here is my partial translation of the AL-Jazeerah intervew between Maher Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani talking about the issue of 6 million muslims leaving Islam every year in Africa alone. This was a television interview that was transcribed and I translated it into English.

Here is the original article I translated from Arabic from Al-Jezeerah's web site.

That's really strange "namjap", because there's a moderator named Eros on an Islamic forum who makes exactly the same claim here!!

Are u Eros?

Also "namjap", could I please ask ur opinion on the following from Gurbani...

"Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false." 1350

"Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;" 1084

[namjap]

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[guv]

Heart you said. Then I agree with you. If you feel the presence of Waheguru in your heart, in one single breath, then you are a giani - not the one with a certificate, but from the true sense.

I didn't say heart... that's what is says in Gurbani (well, the SikhiToTheMax translation of).

& you really didn't answer my questions.

Are you Eros?

Do you believe the Quran is false?

[namjap]

Ram, Rahim, Puran, Kuran,

Anekh Kehay Mat ek na maniyo.

I don't believe anything written in the Quran. It is misleading.

[Guest Javanmard]

Probably why the Gurus occasionally quote from and refer to it...

Read the verse in its context. Any child can quote verses...

[namjap]

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[Malwe Da Sher]

If you appreciate the context within which those lines are written, along with understanding what comes before and after it, I believe you may come to realise that what maharaj is saying is not as simple as you are putting it across.

It a shame, that Svaiyeea is so deep, yet you choose to limit it and completely restrict it to within the narrowest of contexts - oh well!!!

[nimarta da daan bakhso]

Don't forget the nih(foundation) of Sri Harimander Sahib was layed by a muslim: Mian Mir Ji

And Khalsa only fought with cruel/jalam ppl

[namjap]

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[namjap]

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