Prakash Badal performing Yagya -- PICTURE

[Harjinder]

Wahe Guru Jee Da Khalsa;

Wahe Guru Jee Di Fateh.....

Cyber Sangat Jee,

All of us know that Singhs and Kaurs of Guru Gobind Singh Jee are not to bow infront of any other than the Guru Granth Sahib.

We Singhs and Kaurs are not supposed to believe in Yagyas, Keep Religious Fasts, etc. but in the picture below the Sangat can see that one of our leaders,Prakash Badal Patronises Yagya and is getting the same performed at his residence.

Every Sikh is the ambassador of the Guru and this person is a representative of Sikhs.....awww it is really saddening ..

"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh Ji )

:arrow: :arrow: PROUD TO BE SIKH :arrow: Foreva !!

Plzz Comment jeeo

[HeyDudesWassup]

http://www.gobindsadan.org/photos/bsc-birthday_2003/BSC8

[Guest]

Harjinder Ji,

You have added one picture in which Prakash Singh Badal is performing "Yagya" but there is no details attached with your post.

Can you elaborate more? Where it is happening? Why it is happening?

Also, you should be aware of this that "Prakash Singh Badal" is only politician and politicians only follow one religion which is "chairism" so it should not disturb you if you see picture such as this.

[Guest Javanmard]

1. I don't like Prakash Singh Badal at all but...

2. Havans are not a 'Hindu' thing. They are practised in most Indian religions including Buddhism and Sikhi (at least the oldest institutions in the Panth do i.e. Nihangs, Nirmale and Udasi). havan is even practised by Japanese Buddhists of the SHingon shu so I don;t really see the point of accusing Badal for doing havan. Fact is he is corrupt and a real big time <Admin-Cut> with or without havan!!! :twisted:

[Niranjana]

On the topic of Yagnas, it is interesting to note that the tradition of the Sampat Paath is closely linked to the recitation of verses during a Yagna.

On another note, the quote provided by Sardar(ni) Harjinder Sahib(a) is a little incorrect as MahaKaal and MahaLoh do not translate to Lord in anyway (re: "My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh Ji )").

I have written about this on another thread, following a similiar misquotation on a SikhSangat discussion. Also, looking at this again, the whole translation of "Mahakaal Rakvaar Hamaaro, MahaLoh Mai Kinker Thaaro..." is quite off-key (Harjinder Jee, I'm not attacking you in way, as I know this quote is translated by someone else), however we need to be careful in the use of such words...particularly since, literally, Maha Kaal and Maha Loh are Great Death/Time and Great Iron/Weapon and hence in Tantrik terms reference to Shiva and Kalika...

...obviously, that's not who the Shabd is referring to, but an understanding of these is essential to avoid potential RSS mis-use and biased propaganda arising from these terms, hence translating them as Lord is misleading and can open up a whole can of worms....

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana

[commander]

2. Havans are not a 'Hindu' thing. They are practised in most Indian religions including Buddhism and Sikhi (at least the oldest institutions in the Panth do i.e. Nihangs, Nirmale and Udasi)...

For what reason, if I may ask?

[Guest]

1. I don't like Prakash Singh Badal at all but...

2. Havans are not a 'Hindu' thing. They are practised in most Indian religions including Buddhism and Sikhi (at least the oldest institutions in the Panth do i.e. Nihangs, Nirmale and Udasi). havan is even practised by Japanese Buddhists of the SHingon shu so I don;t really see the point of accusing Badal for doing havan. Fact is he is corrupt and a real big time <Admin-Cut> with or without havan!!! :twisted:

Lalleshvari Ji,

Isn't "Havan" part of Brahminism? Is there any historical reference available to prove that Havan was allowed in Sikhism?

[Harjinder]

Hey lalleshwari,

Are you a Sikh ? I dunn think ur a Sikh :?

[Beast]

and are u the ruling authority on who a Sikh is and who a Sikh isn't?

No?

...

Instead of dismissing concepts which are possibly new to you why don't you investigate them first.

Personally, Lalleshvari might be talking rubbish but I don't know that until I research it myself further. Thats why these forums exist, to share and discuss our differences (which is also why the Sikhi and Gangsterism thread should not have been removed - different topic, sorry).

[Guest]

Lalleshwari Ji, why don't you stop trying to bring all this Brahministic stuff into Sikhi? Or provide some reliable Gurbani quotes, plz.

[Niranjana]

I have few questions on this point;

1. What exactly is "Brahmanism" in the view of the forum?

2. In view of this, why did Guru Sahib warn us against the perils of Brahmanism and indeed why did he fight against these perils?

3. Associated with 2. What in the view of the forum are the perils of Brahminism?

4. Now, how does the Havan equate to Brahmanism and why?

5. Finally, what is the forums views on increasing occurances of Brahmanical behaviour found within the Panth concerning matters such as:-

i) The over emphasis and (at times superstitious views) regarding the 5Ks over above than given to Bani, Santiya, Vichaar etc.

ii) The practice of Arranged Marriages, Dowry, Caste Marriages etc

iii) The clockwise circumnation of the Sri Guru in the same fashion as that of Brahmins around their havan

iv) The notion that Khalsa means 'pure' hence, by definition all non-Khalsas are 'impure' and given that in accordance with present understanding, to be a Khalsa means to be a strict Amritdhari, this would imply that bar Amritdharis, all others across the world are 'impure'?

v) The exclusive rights in certain sections for only Amritdharis to prepare and eat langer in segregation from others. Particular cooking and eating rites and rights for Amritdharis.

Please could the forum please address all these questions to really get to the crux of Brahmanism, what it really is, why we as Khalsa Singhs are opposed to it and how it is slowly making its way back into the Panth by those who shout most against it.

I humbly request that the any answers be provided with reference to the question number...this is an important topic and increasingly so given the vast threats of external and internal erosion we are facing as a Panth, please do help me with my understanding of the foregoing.

"Kshatri Kaa Poot Ho, Bahmin Kaa Naahee!"

VahegurooJeeKaaKhalsa

VahegurooJeeKeeFateh!!

Niranjana

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Harjinder you wrote:

Hey lalleshwari,

Are you a Sikh ? I dunn think ur a Sikh

I am going to have to ask formal apologies from you for your insult. I have never insulted you in any way or attacked you personally. I find your 'question' to be insulting and totally dishonest.

I am a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh, I am proud of being a knight of Guru Gobind SIngh and I don't accept such insults!

Havan exists in Vedic rituals, Zoroastrian rituals, Tantric rituals, Buddhist rituals etc... There is nothing Brahmanical about it or rather Brahmins don't have a monopoly over it.

Havan was practised by Guru Gobind Singh at Naina Devi (see Suraj Prakash Granth and Parchian Bhai Seva Das) and Guru Gobind Singh did it precisely to refute the Brahmins!!!!

The oldest insitutions in the Panth (Udasi, Nirmalas and Nihangs) practise it in times of distress or before important battles. They recite bani whilst performing havan.

Shingon Buddhists in Japan practise havan does that mean tehy cease to be Buddhists ot that they are contaminated by ' Brahmanism' inJapan?

I DON'T THINK SO.

I recommend you read Richard King's ' Orientalism and Religion' especially the chapter entitled ' The myth of Hinduism'.

Dear Harjinder I offer you the opportunity to show some decency by offering your apologies for your insult and slander. I am ready to forgive you!

Regrading Sahjleen Kaur Khalsa's post:

Lalleshwari Ji, why don't you stop trying to bring all this Brahministic stuff into Sikhi? Or provide some reliable Gurbani quotes, plz.

When you finish your degree in Indology and Sanskrit I might consider your remarks regarding SOuth Asain religiosity. Otherwise please abstain from baseless and ignorant comments such as these.

I am a Sikh and I believe that there is no such thing as Hinduism or Brahmanism. hence you can't call havan, arti etc.. 'Hindu' or 'Brahmanistic' rituals because they're not!!! Non-Brahmins and non-'Hindus' have used these rituals because they are part of Indian religious culture.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all use the word 'Amen': that does not mean that they are contaminated or part of the same religion!

If you want to be an authority on Indian religions then learn Sanskrit, Pali and Braj otherwise don't make any such statements if you don't have proper arguments!

Shingon Buddhist priest performing goma (Jp. havan)

Question for you Harjinder and Sahajleen: Is this Japanese monk a Hindu now just because he recites Buddhist mantras over a fire?

If not how come you think that reciting gurbani over fire makes a Sikh become a Hindu? :twisted:

I suggest you both to refrain from stupid aasertions if you do not have the necessary knowledge about history and literature of Indian religions!!!

tea everyone? :twisted:

ps. With or without havan Badal is a total (edited)!!! :evil:

Mod's Note: You know not to use the words such as those that have been edited. Please refrain from using such words.

[Guest Javanmard]

ps. Lalleshvari usually does not talk rubbish (except when lalleshvari is in page3 mood but that's just for fun )

[Guest]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Actually, I will explain later on why I have questioned Havan and I will show how people contradict their own words.

[Niranjana]

Ladies adn Gentlemen of the forum,

VahegurooJeeKaaKhalsa!

VahegurooJeeKeeFateh!!

I find this topic very interesting as it has many implications for us as Sikhs and for those interested in the spiritual traditions of South East Asia.

Dealing with the first foremost, it is indeed shameful to see yet another thread go down the route of unfounded slander and insult.

This is a feature common to many a Sikh discussion forum nowadays, I myself have had similar experience at another well-known discussion forum of the same fate, simply because I used a term not commonly used in modern Sikh parlance (a term indicently from the writings of Guru Gobind Singh himself)...anyhow, please can we return to the matter at hand: Havans, Parkash Badal and the implications of these for us as Sikhs.

As such, please could we address the questions below, for those keen to expose certain individuals they consider to be Bramanical sympathisers, then answering these questions and discussions should allow ample evidence from which to argue your case effectively, if you strongly feel that your accusations agianst these people are well-founded and correct...please address these points, rather than stoop to personality slander, afterall, 'nindiya' I never thought was consider good practice amongst Sikhs?

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana

I have few questions on this point;

1. What exactly is "Brahmanism" in the view of the forum?

2. In view of this, why did Guru Sahib warn us against the perils of Brahmanism and indeed why did he fight against these perils?

3. Associated with 2. What in the view of the forum are the perils of Brahminism?

4. Now, how does the Havan equate to Brahmanism and why?

5. Finally, what is the forums views on increasing occurances of Brahmanical behaviour found within the Panth concerning matters such as:-

i) The over emphasis and (at times superstitious views) regarding the 5Ks over above than given to Bani, Santiya, Vichaar etc.

ii) The practice of Arranged Marriages, Dowry, Caste Marriages etc

iii) The clockwise circumnation of the Sri Guru in the same fashion as that of Brahmins around their havan

iv) The notion that Khalsa means 'pure' hence, by definition all non-Khalsas are 'impure' and given that in accordance with present understanding, to be a Khalsa means to be a strict Amritdhari, this would imply that bar Amritdharis, all others across the world are 'impure'?

v) The exclusive rights in certain sections for only Amritdharis to prepare and eat langer in segregation from others. Particular cooking and eating rites and rights for Amritdharis.

Please could the forum please address all these questions to really get to the crux of Brahmanism, what it really is, why we as Khalsa Singhs are opposed to it and how it is slowly making its way back into the Panth by those who shout most against it.

I humbly request that the any answers be provided with reference to the question number...this is an important topic and increasingly so given the vast threats of external and internal erosion we are facing as a Panth, please do help me with my understanding of the foregoing.

"Kshatri Kaa Poot Ho, Bahmin Kaa Naahee!"

VahegurooJeeKaaKhalsa

VahegurooJeeKeeFateh!!

Niranjana

[Guest Javanmard]

Let's move on!!!!

I think the crux of the matter is the fact that we are judging Indian religiosity with 19th century Christian definitions which is wrong. The fact that Badal is seen partcipating in a havan would have been a matter of no importance in pre-colonial Panjab.

The question here is:

1. Is it a Sikh havan? If yes there is no problem!

2. Is it a "Hindu" (whatever that means) havan? If yes that means he has been invited to the ceremony by whoever it is and this has to do politics.

[Guest]

This thread is back and please stick to topic. We will delete any replies we see are off topic without any warning. Check out guidelines if you are not sure what to follow while discussing any topic.

:!: Stick to topic please :!:

[Guest]

Also niranjana veer ji.. can you please make a separate thread regarding your questions related to Brahminism-

I beleive you have raised good point and should be discussed in separate thread. so whenever you have time do that ji.

[manny]

I take it that Lalleshvari is referring to the supposed devi puja incident when he says Guru Gobind Singh got a Havan done.

Please read 'Devi Puja Partal' by Bhai Vir Singh. In this book he totally destroys this event using scholarship of the highest order. Lalleshvari perhaps you could read the book too and let us know whether it's changed your mind about this event

regards

manny

[Niranjana]

Also niranjana veer ji.. can you please make a separate thread regarding your questions related to Brahminism-

I beleive you have raised good point and should be discussed in separate thread. so whenever you have time do that ji.

Bhai Shaib, no problem, please could admin return the post details to me as I don't keep all my posts on hard copy with me!

Many thanks,

Niranjana.

[Guest]

Here you go bro:

I have few questions on this point;

1. What exactly is "Brahmanism" in the view of the forum?

2. In view of this, why did Guru Sahib warn us against the perils of Brahmanism and indeed why did he fight against these perils?

3. Associated with 2. What in the view of the forum are the perils of Brahminism?

4. Now, how does the Havan equate to Brahmanism and why?

5. Finally, what is the forums views on increasing occurances of Brahmanical behaviour found within the Panth concerning matters such as:-

i) The over emphasis and (at times superstitious views) regarding the 5Ks over above than given to Bani, Santiya, Vichaar etc.

ii) The practice of Arranged Marriages, Dowry, Caste Marriages etc

iii) The clockwise circumnation of the Sri Guru in the same fashion as that of Brahmins around their havan

iv) The notion that Khalsa means 'pure' hence, by definition all non-Khalsas are 'impure' and given that in accordance with present understanding, to be a Khalsa means to be a strict Amritdhari, this would imply that bar Amritdharis, all others across the world are 'impure'?

v) The exclusive rights in certain sections for only Amritdharis to prepare and eat langer in segregation from others. Particular cooking and eating rites and rights for Amritdharis.

Please could the forum please address all these questions to really get to the crux of Brahmanism, what it really is, why we as Khalsa Singhs are opposed to it and how it is slowly making its way back into the Panth by those who shout most against it.

I humbly request that the any answers be provided with reference to the question number...this is an important topic and increasingly so given the vast threats of external and internal erosion we are facing as a Panth, please do help me with my understanding of the foregoing.

"Kshatri Kaa Poot Ho, Bahmin Kaa Naahee!"

VahegurooJeeKaaKhalsa

VahegurooJeeKeeFateh!!