Why Do Sikh Women Wear Turbans ? (Debate Continued)

[Guest Javanmard]

How did I insullt anyone here? It seems that some people are looking very hard at any of my posts to find evidence against me! Dream on boys :twisted:

If people wish to wear a dastar and adopt a 3rd gender identity I won't stop them. Guru Gobind Singh himself says in Akal Ustati that Akal Purakh created "nar nari napumsak". A girl who wears dastar adopts a napumsak identity and that's a reality that I have not decided. Those girls who do wear a dastar and still consider themselves as "nari" and not "napumsak" should maybe re-think the issue as this confuses the issue of gender distinction.

I haven't named anyone nor attacked anyone personally but stated things as they are in a rational way backing my arguments with SIkh tradition. Hence none of what I said is manmat. Sure is that saying that SIkh womanhood consists in wearing male attributes is manmat, an insult to feminity and an insult to Guru Gobind Singh's description of feminine beauty in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib.

May I remind everyone here that anyone who rejects Dasam Guru Granth Sahib or Ragmala is indeed nothing but a perfidious traitor to Maharaj and a Ram Raia who rejects gurbani hence his Guru as well.

Guru manyo granth:Adi Guru Darbar, Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarabloh Guru Darbar the threfold manifestation of our beloved Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj composed by our beloved Guru Maharaj who loved us and suffered for us!!!

[Mr §ingh]

A girl who wears dastar adopts a napumsak identity and that's a reality that I have not decided

Where does it say that ............it meantions third gender..but not thtat 'a female who wear dastaar is third gender'

Those girls who do wear a dastar and still consider themselves as "nari" and not "napumsak" should maybe re-think the issue as this confuses the issue of gender distinction.

Whjy has Guru Gobind Singh ji called them 'napumsak'

or are you calling them that ?

I haven't named anyone nor attacked anyone personally but stated things as they are in a rational way backing my arguments with SIkh tradition.

I think not reference?

Hence none of what I said is manmat.

sayign it over and over doesn't help

Sure is that saying that SIkh womanhood consists in wearing male attributes is manmat, an insult to feminity and an insult to Guru Gobind Singh's description of feminine beauty in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib.

Does the description say 'she has to wear chunni, but may not wear keski' ?

May I remind everyone here that anyone who rejects Dasam Guru Granth Sahib or Ragmala is indeed nothing but a perfidious traitor to Maharaj and a Ram Raia who rejects gurbani hence his Guru as well.

Thank you for reminding us

but u have only brought a quote abou Third gender

NOWHERE DOES IT MEANTION that if u were a keski and ur a women ur a third gender

Guru manyo granth:Adi Guru Darbar, Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarabloh Guru Darbar the threfold manifestation of our beloved Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj composed by our beloved Guru Maharaj who loved us and suffered for us!!!

Ifg Im not mistaken - Dasam Gur was compiled when Guur Gobind Singh ji said that :?

bhull chukk maaf!

GurFateh

[Guest Javanmard]

1.According to Budha Dal tradition a woman wearing dastar counts for a man on the battlefield. It is hence permissible to kill her on the battlefield if she appears as such.

2. This has to do with the prohibition of kurimat and narimar which includes female foeticide, female infanticide, violence against women, rape and killing women who dress as women even on the battlefield.

3. A woman wearing male attributes adopts third gender and this is a fact.Ranjit SIngh's example speaks fro itself.

4. I suggest that those who ask questions about Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and question it should learn its languages with humility and read its beautiful compositions with love and humility remembering how its bani have inspired the shahids. Those who don't accept gurbani from Dasam Guru Granth Sahib should have the decency to refrain to comment on the issue and stop their tongue from defiling the holy writings of the Emperor of Emperors, Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

[Mr §ingh]

1.According to Budha Dal tradition a woman wearing dastar counts for a man on the battlefield. It is hence permissible to kill her on the battlefield if she appears as such.

but if you have chunni ur not ?

Nio wonder not many follow Budda Dal..

erm would you like to back this up ?

2. This has to do with the prohibition of kurimat and narimar which includes female foeticide, female infanticide, violence against women, rape and killing women who dress as women even on the battlefield.

WHAT :shock: ..I seem to fail to see the connection :roll:

3. A woman wearing male attributes adopts third gender and this is a fact.Ranjit SIngh's example speaks fro itself.

was he the 'Typical' 'ideal' Sikh ?

P.s woud you liek to back this up ?

4. I suggest that those who ask questions about Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and question it should learn its languages with humility and read its beautiful compositions with love and humility remembering how its bani have inspired the shahids. Those who don't accept gurbani from Dasam Guru Granth Sahib should have the decency to refrain to comment on the issue and stop their tongue from defiling the holy writings of the Emperor of Emperors, Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

Im not denyign anything..I dont deny Gurbani..Never....Ima Slave..

Im just sayign that your quote by Guru Gobind Singh ji about tthird gender..doesn't say ANYTHING AT ALL!

so what..yea teres a third gender?

doesn't mean WOmen in Keski is the third one

lol

take care

Bhull chukkk maaf

GurFateh!

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Interesting debate, I read the reference to Maharaja Ranjit Singh not as his capability, or lack of, as a Sikh (dependent upon your opinion) but because of this Army Segment of some have termed 'Amazon' warrior women. Walter Penrose, has written extensively on this subject, if anyone wishes to look further.

Amongst the royalty in South East Asia, having female personal bodyguards was commonplace, they were usually seen adopting male habits and modes of dress, invariably the turban, weapons and such like.

The much celebrated Mai Bhago as we learn from Sikh Lore, herself was one such woman, who after the Martyrdom of her husband, adopted the Keski and other similar artfacts of the Sikh Warriors and served as a personal bodyguard to Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj.

[Guest Javanmard]

she is hence not to be seen as being the norm for Sikh women in terms of dressing as she is an exception.

The relics of the Gurus' wives show that they dressed like Rajput princesses and not like Mai Bhago.

It is indeed shameful to see how some people insult Maharaj by changing facts of SIkh history to the point of representing the beloved wives of Guru Gobind Singh like nuns instead of princesses. May Akal Purakh forgive them for those lies.

Can you believe that there are people who go to the extent of spreading lies such as saying that Guru Gobind Singh only had one wife :evil: :evil: :cry: :cry:

May Guru Gobind Singh have mercy on them :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Niranjana]

Lalleshvari, you have brought up an number of points here, I would as I am sure the forum would too, appreciate you explaining what motivation or source of influence could possibly be the underlying factor...by this I mean, many of your posts, on varying topics point towards a supposed systematic alteration, denial and fabrication of actual historical occurances, traditions and so on...over the past 100 years or so...what is the root cause of this?

...please could you also elucidate what you consider to be the merit of maintaining traditions? Surely, this would lead to stagnation, for everything is subject to change...

Thanks!

[Shasterkovich]

you explaining what motivation or source of influence could possibly be the underlying factor...by this I mean, many of your posts, on varying topics point towards a supposed systematic alteration, denial and fabrication of actual historical occurances, traditions and so on...over the past 100 years or so...what is the root cause of this?

:?:

...please could you also elucidate what you consider to be the merit of maintaining traditions? Surely, this would lead to stagnation, for everything is subject to change...

:?:

Thanks!

Yeah

[Guest Javanmard]

The main factor of change in SIkhi through the last 100 years has been the adoption by middle class SIkhs (Lahore SIngh Sabha and Bhasaur SIngh Sabha) of modernist and Protestant discourses and the re-shaping of SIkhi into something acceptable to Western eyes hence:

1. the change in liturgy and texts

2. the change of gender attributes

3. adoption of Victorian sexual ethics

4. nationalistic agenda

etc..

don't get me wrong I am saying that the Brits alone were responsible for that but that the emerging midddle classes were responsible in this creation of a sanitised religiosity close to Protestantism at the expense of keeping the traditions of our Gurus.

Keeping traditions is an act of loyalty towards Maharaj but this does not mean that a tradition has to be stagnating see next post for article.

[Guest Javanmard]

On The Necessity of Renewed Religious Scholarly Tradition

Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 07:55 AM EST

I find it really interesting, and very revealing, that discussions on sikhe.com often slip into 19th century Christian debates about monotheism vs. monism, tradition vs. modernity, religion vs. science. There is an apologetic attempt to show at all cost that Sikhi is modern, scientific, monist, etc. It would be much more interesting to get rid of those old oriental debates.

In one of the recent debates, Christian and Sikh perception of creation were mentioned. The concept of the origin of the world is different in Christianity and Sikhi. Applying the word "Creation" for both is illogical. If you want to make a comparison, then you need to look back at the words used in the original texts in their original languages, that is, ancient Greek for the Gospels - actually a very nice form of koine - and the language of the Guru Granth Sahib, which draws most of its common vocabulary from Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. Only then is a comparison possible.

It is also very unfortunate to find people defining Christianity in a few lines without referring to authoritative texts like the New Testament, Fathers and Doctors of the Church, Catholic and Orthodox theologians.

I know some people will say that Sikhi and Protestantism are very similar but sorry to disappoint you; this idea is the result of the British education given to the Sikh Singh Sabha leaders. I find it very difficult to compare Luther and Guru Nanak when I know that Luther was an anti-Semite and that he supported the nobles against the revolting farmers during the Bauernkrieg (War of the Farmers). He based everything on faith; our Gurus believed in knowledge. What most people do ignore about Catholicism is that before and after Luther the Church underwent huge transformations with the activities of, for example, Ignacio de Loyola, Theresa de Avila, Juan de la Cruz and the working priests, who actually changed the Church.

According to Max Weber, social Catholicism has been one of the driving forces for social reforms in Europe whereas Protestantism encouraged Capitalism. I would definitely encourage people who compare Sikhi and Christianity to break the Anglo-Saxon Protestant mould and take a look at more ancient, and maybe more authentic, forms of Christianity like Oriental Orthodoxy.

It surprises me that no one ever mentions Eastern Orthodoxy. Its mysticism, for one, is very similar to the Gurus' concept of naam simran, relation between body mind and soul. Saint Georgios Palamas' works are worth mentioning as well as the Philokalia, the Encyclopedia of True Light.

On the other hand, I am not too sure about the whole A Do It Yourself Faith attitude, which betrays unconscious yet obvious Protestant influences. Actually, I.J. Singh's article is full of easy anti-Catholic Protestant propaganda. Protestantism, especially in its Neo-Protestant form, does not believe in religious scholarship or a clergy. It is true that a clergy can bring stagnation in a religious institution but, on the other hand, the Do It Yourself Faith attitude opens the door to all kinds of ignorant charlatans who will split the Panth. Scholarship is certainly not needed for salvation but it is needed in understanding, comparing and debating religious issues.

Our Gurus did create orders of scholars like the Nirmalas, Sevapanthis and Udasis. Some members of these orders may have been corrupted for some time, or still are, but the fact remains that they were and are not elitists as they provide free education for everyone. The difference between Brahmanism and them is that the selection process for becoming educated in the Sikh orders is not birth but effort.

In fact, comparing Catholicism or Shi'ism to Brahmanism shows a total lack of knowledge of both traditions. The word katholikos in Greek means universal. The criteria for becoming part of the Catholic clergy, as well as a Shi'a ulema, is not birth but hard effort - at least in principle. In Neo-Protestantism as well as in SGPC (Protestantised) Sikhism, any uneducated idiot can improvise as a granthi, raagi or preacher with the results that we know in both cases - corruption, ignorance, blind faith, proliferation of cults and such like.

The fact remains that the great thinkers in Islam and Christianity are either Shi'a or Catholic/Orthodox because there is already a tradition that renews itself constantly after periods of stagnation. Sayed Hossein Nasr, Taillard De Chardin, Michel de Certeau, Raimundo Panikkar, Vladimir Soloviev - and his beautiful concept of sobornost, unity in diversity - Ali Shariati, Ayatollah Shirazi, Ayatollah Tabatai, Leonardo Boff and Patriarch Bartholomeos, are among the many examples of ground breaking scholars who have come out of a religious scholarly tradition and have helped in renewing these same traditions by carefully digesting and integrating new influences.

It would be nice if, in the future, we Sikhs became aware of the huge influence Protestantism has had on our religion. We started building our gurudwaras like Protestant churches, we play the harmonium brought by Protestant missionaries, we have adopted Puritan sexual ethics - that's why many people have a problem with the Charitropakhyan - we have neglected arts and religious scholarship in the name of the Do It Yourself Faith attitude. Most of our Sikh "intellectuals" are totally inarticulate and just follow 19th century ideologies blindly. And we wonder why it is so easy for Protestant missionaries to convert Sikhs by the thousands in Punjab!

The Sikh sampradayas, or orders - there are four: Udasi, Nirmala (including Giani sampradaya), Sevapanthi and Nihang - do need a reform but our Gurus gave them for the Panth so that Sikhi could flourish in all spheres. Saying that they are not needed or that the Gurus did not found them is foolish revisionism.

Traditional knowledge is not enough. Traditional establishments need to incorporate psychology, sociology, continental philosophy, etc., whilst keeping the traditional Indian knowledge. That's how a religious tradition combines modernity with tradition, science and faith. Only then will we be able to nurture the heritage of our Gurus and debate on equal terms with members of other religious traditions.

[Mr §ingh]

she is hence not to be seen as being the norm for Sikh women in terms of dressing as she is an exception.

The relics of the Gurus' wives show that they dressed like Rajput princesses and not like Mai Bhago.

It is indeed shameful to see how some people insult Maharaj by changing facts of SIkh history to the point of representing the beloved wives of Guru Gobind Singh like nuns instead of princesses. May Akal Purakh forgive them for those lies.

Can you believe that there are people who go to the extent of spreading lies such as saying that Guru Gobind Singh only had one wife :evil: :evil: :cry: :cry:

May Guru Gobind Singh have mercy on them :cry: :cry: :cry:

U still havn't ansawered the point

u pointeed out that Dasam Granth meantioned that

'THERE's a THIRD GENDER''

from there..you came to the conclusion of WOmen with keski are the one

[Guest Javanmard]

Anyone who has studied logic would have understood that

1. Akal Ustati mentions napumsak

2. In India warrior women dressed with male attributes (like dastar) are considered napumsak

3. Sikh women who wear dastar adopt (temporarily if only in war or permanently if worn regularly) a napumsak identity

4. Hence dastarvalian are napumsak and if they don't know that they should reconsider their choices

5. The Gurus' wives did not wear them hence dastar is not meant for Sikh women unless they wish to be napumsak which in itslef is not a problem!

[Mr §ingh]

Anyone who has studied logic would have understood that

you should read ur post over

1. Akal Ustati mentions napumsak2. In India warrior women dressed with male attributes (like dastar) are considered napumsak

1) care to provide reference ?

2) BY wearing a dastaar u wear mens dress...

shessh..

I wonderif a Gori on the street bvecomes a 'napumsak by merely wearing jeans and a shirt - as men usually used to wear them before

p.s

Im not the LEAST concerned over what people in IDNIA think..I give my Guru more imporantance

3. Sikh women who wear dastar adopt (temporarily if only in war or permanently if worn regularly) a napumsak identity

4. Hence dastarvalian are napumsak and if they don't know that they should reconsider their choices

5. The Gurus' wives did not wear them hence dastar is not meant for Sikh women unless they wish to be napumsak which in itslef is not a problem!

So everything Guru Gobind SIngh ji's wife didn't do

women aren't suppose to do ?

yor logic :roll:

[Guest Javanmard]

Are you saying that the Guru's wives were not proper Sikh women?

You really disgust me with your heresy :evil:

[Mr §ingh]

Are you saying that the Guru's wives were not proper Sikh women?

You really disgust me with your heresy :evil:

ERm no!

I meant that MAY THEY NOT DO ANYTHING THEY DIDN'T

aere they not ALOUD to do anything else

ps wheres ur refrence they didn't

p.s

Im not mkaing it a compulsion...!

[Guest Javanmard]

Mr SIngh wrote:

ERm no!

I meant that MAY THEY NOT DO ANYTHING THEY DIDN'T

aere they not ALOUD to do anything else

ps wheres ur refrence they didn't

p.s

Im not mkaing it a compulsion...!

Write in English please it's getting more and more difficult to understand you!

Reference: the relics of the wives of Guru Gobind Singh include Rajasthani types of dress ONLY and NO turban as theyr were no bodyguards ot amazon warriors! see Guru Tirath Samgrahi!

[Mr §ingh]

Write in English please it's getting more and more difficult to understand you!

Whcih part of my post don't u understand ?

[tableji]

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 1083

naapaak paak kar hadhoor hadheesaa saabath soorath dhasathaar siraa

Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head

This is before guru gobind singh ji's time!

[Beast]

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 1083

naapaak paak kar hadhoor hadheesaa saabath soorath dhasathaar siraa

Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head

This is before guru gobind singh ji's time!

Can you post the whole shabd please - thanks.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

My two cents: why is it that in all pictures showing the Guru Ji's and their wives , none of them are wearing Dastaars.... if those were the wives of the Guru Ji's and were following the paanth then shouldn't they have worn them too...??? If that's not the case then we should take a look at those paintings and do them properly....

[Guest]

Very Good Point CJ ...something that makes you wonder .. doesnt it??

[sikh_fauge]

nothing wrong with a woman wearing a dastar, if it elevates her spirituality or makes her happy.

who are we to label them she males or bi gender humans,etc.

i understand ur viewpoint, and its sad akj have made the keski a compulsion lalleshvari paji, but i dnt think we should degrade the garm of the keski either; some singhnia feel like princesses and LOOK like princesses with the keski..i for one, think they look beautiful.

[Mr §ingh]

1 - I still don't understand that you take PICTURES as reliable sources :?

2 - as for keski - i guess in the 'picture' u were watching

they probably wore Chunni.

Now lets look at it in this way - I fail to see how you can be PRACTICLE and wear chunni all day - I mean yea I don't seee any difference whether its a chunni or keski - but I fail to see how whering a chunni would be practicle for a studing studying in school, or a bibi working somewhere

bhull chukk maaf

GurFateh

[Guest Javanmard]

I think that there is a misconception here about my statements about keski mostly due to people's complete ignorance of Indian civilisation and history.

It's ok for a girl to adopt keski as long as she is aware that she is adopting a 3rd gender identity (napumsak) as well. But please stop with this bs about princesses wearing keski because that is not true. Their 3rd gender bodyguards would wear turbans but princesses would not wear turbans unless they went hunting or went to war!

[sikh_fauge]

also, the chunni looks like a hijab to most people/mistake them for muslims..we have enough of that with our brothers..the last thing we need is our women being mistaken for muslims (and be hassled)..khalsa should stand out..in actions, body and soul..i guess thats why we have bana..so stand out..and if keski is part of that (kesh) for some singhnia, so be it..im happy to support them in their decision.