Why Do Sikh Women Wear Turbans ? (Debate Continued)

[Guest Javanmard]

CkSInghani is right: it's up to the person> If a girl wishes to adopt a third gender identity that's ok! As long as she is aware of the consequences that's fine. CkSinghani does imply though that keski is a kakar and hence compulsory which is of course unacceptable as it is an AKJ invention.

[Khalsa Soldier]

Lalleshvhari your arguement hinges on the fact that there are seperate rehats for men and women.

Having just read a section of Prem Surag Granth (marriage section) it is mentioned that hte man and woman should take khanda da pahul together. Not kard da pahul or any other such bahman invention. Is a woman who takes Khanda Da Pahul, classified into the 3rd gender?

Women who leave their bodies as Waheguru created it will have a small amount of facial hair, usually upper lip. Since you believe Kesh is only on hte head and anything else can be shaved/plucked/pulled off, do women who leave their facial hair (as men leave their beard), become classified into this 3rd gender?

You claim that the turban is a masculine feature; what is your opinion on the Kaccha/Kachereh? Are not wearing knee length breeches a masculine thing?

Is a woman who adopts the Kaccha as part of the panj kakkars, classified into this 3rd gender of yours?

What about wearing of weapons - in "Classical Indian Society" or whatever you want to call it, women stay at home and cook. Would wearing of the kirpan constitute a classification into the dreaded "3rd gender"?

In the West, some women wear doo rags which are a little like turbans. Are they adopting the 3rd gender? If they lived in India where men wear turbans do they adopt the 3rd gender?

Some women also wear jeans, hooded tops, trainers, tracksuits etc. Going back 10 20 years these people would be classified also into the 3rd gender.

I remember reading something about jewlery and make up being ok on shastarvidiya.org..

Yet the Desa Singh Rehatnama which is constantly used to justify Jhatka, Sukkha and alcohol, also says, "do not wear makeup or jewelry".

Do you admit that Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwales female family members adopted the 3rd gender, and if so, why did Baba Ji, being a Gurmukh of a high degree, and knowing exactly what Gurus hukam was, encourage them to wear dastar, when you claim Guru Gobind Singh would rather women stayed with their traditional roles?

[Guest Javanmard]

You talk about two genders only whereas in India there are three genders.

I don't need Baba Gurbachan SIngh Bhindranvale's jivan to sort out the issue. As a Nihang it was only but normal to see his wife wearing dastar but this does not mean that this is the norm for everyone.

May I remind you that in terms of gender policy Guru Gobind Singh continued the traditions of the Kamashastras (Vatsyayana and Kokila) as he expressed many times in Akal Ustati and Charitropakhyan. The gender codes contained in there are quite clear: women don't have beards and don't wear turbans. Needless to quote the Charitra in which a queen uses a special hair-removal powder to make a man look like a woman so that he may enter the court disguised as a woman: women do not have beards!!! (the man wasn't an amritdhari btw so please don't jump to the roof)

As for the question of kesh: I have discussed it many times before so please refer to previous discussions.

kesh is a Sanskrit word and refers to the hair on the scalp only and includes beard for men.

I would encourage you to carefully read the article again. This is not my opinion but these are facts. We are discussing socio-religious gender codes.

Regarding amrit: that is why women have their own amrit which is NOT inferior which is kirpan da amrit. BTW kirpan da amrit is NOT a brahman habit or invention as it does not even exist in the different Hindu traditions. Traditional Kacheras are not designed for women as the folds would rub the female genitalia constantly and are most impractical when it comes to period blood. The kachera is a male attribute and there is no need for women to wear male attributes unless of course they wish to adopt a third gender identity: and again there is no problem with that.

Again I have no problem with girls adopting male attributes as long as they are aware that they adopt a third gender identity. Again refer to the article.

You mention western clothing but you forget to mention that SIkhi was NOT born in the West and that its socio-cultural place of birth of India. Also the trend of Western women wearing jeans etc.. is quite new and was deliberatly seen as gender bluring (see the works of Elisabeth Badinter).

We are discussing socio-religious codes born out of a particular tradition.

If western or african women wish to wear turbans I don't care but in SIkhi this is not problematic as long as girls are aware of the code-switching involved. Mughal paintings often represent girls with turban hunting: in that context it makes sense as hunting is a martial activity.

any army has separate codes for men and women: does not mean its discrimination!!!

[Guest]

Er, Im confused, what about the Rehitnama's?

[Khalsa Soldier]

Lalleshvari you have not answered all my questions.

You avoided by question on Baba Ji. If Baba Ji was a Gurmukh which he was, why did he not dictate Gurus will to his family members. Why did he condone what you would consider Manmat?

I did not ask you for a definition of Kesh. I asked you, if women leave their hair alone, are they considered part of your 3rd gender? I dont want a thesis, I want a yes or no. What about women who leave body hair - are they 3rd gender too?

I didnt ask you if Kard Amrit was inferior or not. I told you that the "super puratan Snatan Akali Sikh ancient history text" Prem Surag Granth clearly mentions Khanda Amrit for women.

You avoided my questions on doorags, western clothes, the Desa Singh Rehatnama, wearing the Kirpan (is this a male thing only?)

I have read Akal Ustat and I am yet to see evidence that Guru Gobind Singh didnt want his daughters to wear dastar or take Khanda Amrit.

I am intriguted as to why you believe the Kachereh are impractical for women, and frankly I am suprised that most the members on this forum condone your views.

Is my assumption correct, that forum members have no problem with Lalleshvari saying women who take amrit from a Khanda, rather than his dodgy Kard, and follow rehat (regardless of keski or not) are adopting the 3rd gender?

You seem to making all this 3rd gender stuff up as you go along. Yes the 3rd gender may exist, but what makes you so sure that simply by wrapping a 5 meter length of cloth round ones head, someone ceases to be a true woman?

Do not bother replying until you reply to all my points

[sikh_fauge]

Why are your conclusions in the context of india and its social norms lalleshvari?

Surely this mentality would mean sikhi isnt as universal as guru nanak dev ji preached by walking all four corners of the globe. Or do we expect the world to adopt its norms to bharat?

[Khalsa Soldier]

good point sikh_fauge. Sikhs like to say how Sikhi is above alcohol obsessed, casteist Punjabi society sometimes, when yet it suits them they like falling back on the sexism and the frankly outdated, sad ideas of what women should be.

However this is expected really; an interpritation of Sikhi based on late 18th and early 19th century texts and ideas when Hindu influence in Sikhi was at his highest will only bring such a result. You only need to compare Bhai Nand Lal "Tanakhah-Nama" to Bhai Chaupa Singh rehatnama to see how quickly Bahmanism got a hold of Sikhism. Yet we still have Lalleshvari referring to Kesar Singh Chhiber as if he is reliable.

[Khalsa Soldier]

Please reply below in a full reply, not add 1 or 2 points to your original because you still dont adress it all.

Are women who wear jeans now part of the 3rd gender? And because you dont care about African women, its irrelevant- answer the question.

[Khalsa Soldier]

I appreciate what your saying Bhai Sahib, but I cannot treat someone who convinces Singhnees to remove hair, remove their kakkars and attempts to convince them they are trying to be men, as my brother.

[SAadmin]

Here is rehat maryada for damdami taksal:

Gurmat Rehat Maryada

Publishers:

In Heavenly abode, Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale

Their Successor in Heavenly abode, Sant Giani Kartar Singh Ji Khalsa,

Their Successor Sant Giani Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa,

In the absence of which, their Humble Servant Thakur Singh Khalsa

Damdami Taksal (Jatha Bhindran) Mehta

source: http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_rehat_13.htm

It clearly says that:

Kesh:

From your head down to your toes all hair is to be kept intact.

Are we saying sachkhand vasi sant 108 gurbachan singh ji khalsa bhindranwale didnt know what kesh is and lacking crediblity when he published "Gurmat Rehat Maryada"

I personally dont need translations of "Monier Williams's Sanskrit English dictionary" for keshas because we have a bhramgyani and great sikh scholar telling us is what kesh really means.

In that same very link you may want to look under kachera defination too.

Also I ll get a stand of buddha dal regarding this case.. I know a budda dal nihang singh who was once under seeva of Jathedar baba santa singh ji. I ll get in touch with him this friday regarding this. He lives in toronto as well.

[Guest Punjabi Nationalist]

A turban is a traditional male garment worn in Persia, Central Asia, Punjab, Rajputana... even among some Chinese.

The turban pre-dates Sikhism, Islam, Christianity. It has nothing to do with religion. It is the uncut hair which is one of the 5'Ks of the Khalsa Panth. For practically purposes, it is only natural that men tied a turban over their long hair, as people had already been doing this for centuries.

Why should women want to wear a male garment? Should men start wearing lipstick and other makeup in the 'spirit of equality'? What rubbish... Having different styles of clothing for two different genders has nothing to do with equality.

In my opinion, women shouldnt wear pagri just as men shouldnt wear a skirt. It looks all wrong and is not necessary.

I think this photo and descritption from Tribune sums it up:

- paani paani RE...: A girl dressed as a boy quenches her thirst as the mercury soars in Ludhiana on Monday. — Photo Pradeep Tewari

[HeyDudesWassup]

Punjabi Nationalist

How can you compare a Turban to lipstick? Or Turban to a skirt?

[Beast]

Judging from his post, quite easily.

[Guest Punjabi Nationalist]

Punjabi Nationalist

How can you compare a Turban to lipstick? Or Turban to a skirt?

Because when it all boils down to it, a turban is only a piece of clothing. Yes, turbans are a symbol of respect, pride, in some cases royalty, but they are also a symbol of masculinity, just as lipstick and dress are feminine.

[Guest]

PN, are jeans a male garment, should women in any part of the world not wear them? This discussion is not based on cultural norms of dress, but on religious sources, provide a source from Sikhism which states it is a male garment.

[Guest Punjabi Nationalist]

There are many garments, like jeans, which are unisex. As far as religion is concerned, i have never come across anything which suggests that turban has anything to do with faith.

Like i said, Kesh (uncut hair) is one of the distinguishing features of the Khalsa. How one goes about managing it im sure is upto the individual.

You can tie a turban if you want, just know that it is a male garment.

[Guest]

Don't some african women wear turbans, aside from the fact that they do not look male to me, are they third gender too? How else would you tie it respectfully on the head and cover your Kesh, other than wearing a turban, just wondered, apart from Keski's and Patka's too?

[HeyDudesWassup]

Punjabi Nationalist

What about Kilts? Do you consider Scottish folks of the third gender?

[Beast]

eg What about Buddhists? Are they unable to become spiritually high because they shave their heads, whereas we all know that the path to salvation is to grow our kesh?

Also, to AN OUTSIDER, an Akaali Singh wearing bana would look like a guy wearing a 'funny, skirt/blouse type thing' with white shorts.

Some native Americans used to put colourings on their faces, is that the same as lipstick? No.

Commonsense is sometimes taken for granted.

A kilt gives the same freedom as bana does when in battle.

My two pence.

-- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your post has been edited. Please refrain from making personal comments. No personal insults or sarcasm will be tolerated.

[HeyDudesWassup]

Beast, you didn't make any sense. My post is in regards to Punjabi Nationalist's comments of equating a turban with lipstick or skirt. So I just threw it back at him with the kilt comment.

I have no idea what your going on about but keep going if you like to think its smart stuff.

HDW, please keep these personal snipes out of your posting and other members follow suit...Beast, look forward to hearing your clarification, please keep things above belt everyone.

^ No problem admin.

[Beast]

I was talking abt the fact that a kilt is considered feminine by the above member just because it appears to resemble a skirt.

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

sabat surat dastaar sira

sabat means complete

surat means natural form

dastar sira means dastaar on ure head

Guru je is saying that keep ure natural, complete form, and wear a dastar on ure head

And its talking to everybody, not only male

Sant baba Gurbachan singh je khalsa Bhindranwales whole family wore dastars

Bhai dya singh je reightnama tells all sikhs to wear 2, not 1, dastars

i dont see the problem

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[Guest Maha_Pavitar]

I think we have to look at this veerji..it's commonly misinterpreted and whilst i'm still trying to figure it out for myself here is a view I found in the Sikh Review...

The Rehat Maryada, published by the SGPC about 51 years ago, is not a precise and legally sound document. It needs drastic revision. Further, “Sabat surat dastar sira†does not signify “Sikhi rupâ€. The phrase, in the 12th stanza of a sabd (having 15 stanzas) of Mahla V (Guru Arjun), occurs under Rag Maru in Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS) at pages 1082-1084:

kaya kirdar, aurat yakeena

Rang tamase maan haqino

Napak pak kar, hadur Hadisa

Sabat surat dastar sira

The sabd is addressed to a pious Muslim. Guru Arjun explains how to live as a good Muslim by giving comparative examples from the shara-shariat (code of conduct of Islam) of Prophet Muhammad. The interpretation is as follows: “Make your body (by doing good deeds) a faithful wife. Then enjoy the pleasures provided by Allah, the Almighty. Purifying the impure mind is your code of conduct (Hadis). Keeping body complete (sabat surat, i.e. without circumscion) is an honor (dastar) bestowed on your head. Thus, “sabat surat" has been referred to the uncircumcised body. The circumcision has now been declared dangerous both for the male and the female from health and medical point of view by doctors.

The “dastar†in "dastar sira†has been used as a simile of honor to be bestowed on the head (sira) of a person who would follow the instructions of Guru Arjun given in the whole sabd of 15 stanzas. Here “dastar†has been used to refer to as an honor. Because turban (dastar) is considered as an honor in Islam.

[khalistani]

nwpwk pwku kir hdUir hdIsw swbq sUriq dsqwr isrw ] 12 ]

Naapaak Paak Kar Hadoor Hadeesaa Saabat Soorat Dastaar Siraa || 12 ||

Purify (Paak Kar) what is impure (Naapaak), and let the Presence (Hadoor is presence, here it means Vaaheguru’s Presence) be your religious conduct (Hadeesaa). The whole point so far in this shabad is to purify the mind. You should make every effort to purify your impure mind. That is your Hadeesaa! The Hadeesaa is an Islamic book containing dharmic instructions for being a good Muslim. It describes how to live the muslim way, like how to say your prayer, how to get up in the morning, to do Sunat (circumcision), cutting locks of hair for the purpose of removing paap/sin. Even pulling chest hairs according to Hadeesaa is a form of punishment that removes sins. Hadeesaa focuses on these bodily mutilations. These instructions are not in the Kuran. Hadeesaa is more like their version of the ‘Sikh Rehat Maryada’ except it is much more indepth. Guru Sahib is saying that they don’t have to modify the body according to Hadeesaa. Guru Sahib said keep your ‘Sabat Soorat’ and do Hadeesaa of your mind (Naapaak Paak Kar). If you do that, then you will have true honor, Dastaar Siraa. Keeping a dastaar on the head is a sign of respect and honor. Muslims are very honor oriented in their beliefs especially in the afterlife in Heaven. Saabat means complete. Soorat is your God given body/form. If anything, this line is a good argument against cutting hair and circumcisions which modify this God-given body. Dastaar Siraa is your Izat, your respect and honor. Guru Sahib is telling the Muslim, and us, that the REAL way of earning respect or honor is to purify the impure mind. || 12 ||

here u go bhenji

and then theres also bhai dya singh jes reightnama which clearly states that u have to wear 2 dastars, it applys to all sikhs

and i agree with u, guur je is talking to muslims, but guru je talked to a lot of people, and told em wat to do right

so guru je is saying keep natural and dont circumsize

thats proof we shoudlnt cut our hair

as for wearing dastars, bhia dya singh jes reightnama says u have to wear 2 dastars

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[Guest]

Dear Khalistani,

Sant baba Gurbachan singh je khalsa Bhindranwales whole family wore dastars

Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale's wife rejected humbly when she was asked to wear Dastar. Also, try to understand difference between devotion and academic research. You can have anything on your head, knees and fingers on the basis of your devotion but when it comes to understand religious terms then we need to expand our horizons and don't follow "AS-IS" policy.

Giani Gurbachan Singh's family wore and Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale's wife rejected? Can I ask you why? Does it prove that Baba Jarnail Singh's wife was violating? So, please try to provide objective references and let's not bring sants and Mahapoorash into our discussions because it gets ugly sometimes.

I will look forward to see objective anwser from you.