Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 66
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Wasn't it LOGIC that dictated Guru Nanak to question mindless rituals within Hinduism?

First please define what a Mindless Ritual is and how is it related to the task that is done with love and devotion such as cooking food??

Exactly where did I advocate the SGGS is only a book? My Nani had the SGGS in her house so I know a bit about how it is taken care off. My Nani learnt more about Sikhism via the SGGS and the Guru helped her to face the hardships of life. But my Nani did not spend hours preparing 8 to 9 meals for the SGGS nor did she split hairs to the type of 'rumalla' to be used. The SGGS is the Guru not because it was proclaimed so by our last Guru but because of the MESSAGE it contains.

It shows in your posts, You see there is no right or wrong in this, you don't want to cook food for the Guru then that is fine, don't do it. Is Guru/God going to punish you if you don't, no. It is your devotion to the guru and everyoen expresses in their own way. Some buy Beautifull Rumallas for the Guru, some don't. Some Place Beautifully sowen covers for the Guru, some don't, Some Buy a Kingsize bed, some don't. Guru is looking for Love not gold, not king size beds, not food, his food is Love. It is your Devotion. Everyones expression of their love and devotion is their own and the Rehat gives us 'A' way in my opinion.

Well it is the Last and eternal Guru of the Sikhs because the 10th guru proclaimed it as so. If he hadn't how would u know who the next guru was?? Some would've considered the Dasam Granth as the Guru, some not and I agree that the reason it was proclaimed the last guru was because the message it contains is so enriched with LOVE of god from the devotees themselves.

I'm sorry Pheena but you've got me all wrong. I have NEVER advocated in any of my posts that SGGS is a mere book. Show me where did I state this and I will recant what I have said.

BTW please don't dismiss logic so easily. If it were not for logic, you and me would probably be praying to a stone statue and the dark ages in the western(Europe) world would have never ended. It is only through logic we can see cruel acts committed by Muslims around the globe as barbaric. Muslims believe a Non Muslim is a Kafir and should be either converted or killed as instructed by their prophet and stated in the Quran. This is a religion/cult that lacks all forms of logic and it is because of this that is contributing to their irrational behaviour.

Perhaps I do have you all wrong. It is not what you didn't say, but it is how your approach towards the Rehat is understood by me.

And definetly not am i Dismissing your Logic or Logic itself. But Logic can only take you so far. Love is the next step after Logic. Logic cannot explain what love is or justify the actions of the one who is in Love. You can be Logical all your life, is that a Logical thing to do? And as it is said, 'Without love you cannot attain God'. Not "Without Logic god cannot be be attined", but Love is the key. Logic is mind, it is intellect, Love is the Heart, you don’t need logic to love. They are independent of each other, they serve their own purpose. In Love everything is divine and undestood; even the un-understandable is justified thru love. People do things in love which cannot be explained thru Logic ie: cook food for a ‘book’. Once you are in Love, the ‘book’ no longer becomes a book rather it become alive and you become alive.

Logically we can discuss this and end up not beliving that the Rehat is correct. because thru logic you are absolutly correct, but again and again you miss to see the love behind the illogical things being done towards the guru. But where Love is there is no debate, nothing verbally can be expressed in love, only silence can speak for love Nor does the question of 'why' arises in Love. Why is that so, because Love diminishes any possibility of doubt. It makes no difference to someone who is in love, that is the UnConditional Love. That love is not 'blind love' as it could be mistaken for, but it is the Love that removes all doubts. That Love also brings spritiual Wisdom along with it.

In my humble opinion it was through logic that Guru Nanak was able to see the irrational behaviour of Hindus in Hinduism. It was through logic Guru Nanak realised the act of throwing water toward the sun will not reach ones ancestors in the heavens. It was through logic Guru Nanak saw that the threading ceremony that he had to undergo whe he came of age was a mindless ritual. It is the very illogical nature of Hinduism which is the greatest contributing factor that is resulting in the suffering of millions of low caste Hindus in India. Low caste Hindus look upon High caste Hindus as demi Gods on Earth. Sikhs do not believe in such nonsense because Guru Nanak has freed our minds of such illogical behaviour. This is why the core belief in Sikhism is that all men/women are created equal.

Because Guru ji was a Reformer, he wanted to reform things that were done without meaning or reason, they were unrationalized rituals. They held a meaning when they were created, but the meaning was lost and simply the duty of the ritual was left. Or some were even created out of Superstitions. Even Bowing before the guru can become a Mindless event, as the real purpose is to surrender all that is to the Guru, you surrender your head, your ego to the guru, but you are bowing down and your mind is in a movie, or a girl, or a guy or whether your car is ok, then it has become mindless , because your mind was not invovled in the bowing down. Your mind did not bow, rather you body, it become a duty, meaningless ritual. A performance.

Do you think if someone went to mecca with full of Love and devotion towards Allah he is wrong because he is making a Pilgrimage. Do you not go to Amritsar full of love towards the Guru? If he goes to mecca and he comes back with no ego, no more hatred in his heart ready to spread the love that he has received the how is that a bad thing? Was that Pilgrimage still a mindless thing???

People were/are taking Pilgrimages, doing ritual and coming back still full of ego, full of hatred, full of greed. That is a meaningless ritual. what makes a Pilgrimage to mecca different than a visit to Amritsar?? Rituals are not the end, they are a step. Guru Nanak wanted to avoid any ritual practices because he saw what could happen when the message is lost and it is bound to happen that the message will be lost. The Rituals have become outdated in the mind of man, it is no longer done in love, it is no longer done in devotion, but as a meaningless and mindless performance of duty. And anything that becomes a Duty is bound to become meaningless, a mindless ritual. For a Sikh those things are not necessary, as the Guru's have paved a different road to avoid all the curves of pilgrimages and the speedbumps of mindless rituals.

Oh yes, I AM in love. But I am in love with the one true God; Satnam Sri Waheguru. Only through love of God will one break their attachment toward worldly things. The SGGS is there for me to achieve this union with the one true God and can only be done so by understanding it and NOT by revering it.

If it will satisfy your ego to judge me then be my guest.

It's amazing how you can single out my posts and deem it as rowdy and yet overlook the bullying tactics used by a moderator to force her belief on others.

If you love god, then the guru that you have passed thru that enabled you to love god should be loved even more and if one want to cook food for that guru because he enabled you to love god, then what is wrong with that?? If you want to place that Guru on a King size bed then what is wrong with that, It is your love and devotion, express it how you see fit.

And how would you know I am not filled with love? How did you come to this conclusion?

i concluded from your post only, as i stated at the end, i am only gathering this from your posts and i apologized if i concluded wrongly, but your posts speak with a different tone. Your posts are full of Logic, not Love. It is not to say you don't love, but again your post is all that i have known about you. Did i assume too much perhaps i did, but to understand the logic behind the Rehat, look with they eyes of love.

If your love gives you the right to treat the guru as you see fit, then as does the love of those who wrote the Rehat. If they want to cook food for the Guru, the does it become a blind ritual or a illogical reasoning? I asked you who do you think the Guru is actually going to eat the food?? That would be illogical to think that the guru in form of words is going to eat the food or its going to magically disappear.. That food will be served to the Sangat that comes to Langar. But that Food which is being cooked for the guru is filled with Love and made whole heartdly by teh devotee and when the Sangat does eat it how do u think they are going to feel. The food of the Guru is the Food of the Sangat, hence the Analogy i gave about the Guru Nanak and his Golakh being with the poor. The degh is for the guru but then is served to the Sangat with the same Love that it was made with. You are seeing the food for the Guru Granth Sahib, but not the love that it is being prepared with which is far more important. You see the cause, but see the effect of it also. You see a King-Size bed for the Guru as a Mind-less ritual, but you are not seeing the Love that one might buy that king Size bed with. It isn't Mindless because Love is involved. Not everyone can afford a King-size bed for the Guru, does that mean they can't have the Guru in their house, well ofcourse not. It is your love, and it is expressed with how much devotion and love you have.

You highlight the rehat but you ignore the fundemental teachings of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind concerning idol worship. I am confused, are you a Hindu or a Sikh?

Truthfully I don't know who i am. When i find out myself, i will let you know.

If God can be seen in rock why didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji see it? Why did Guru Nanak after spending three days at the bank of Ravi proclaim "Na Me Hindu ta Na Me Mussalman" (I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim)? Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji proclaim he was an idol breaker? If God can be seen through a rock, why do we even need Sikhism? Gur Nanak and Guru Gobind could have just tried to reform Hinduism (as claimed by Hindus) instead of starting something from scratch? Please note, Hindus today falsely believe the Gurus were Vishnu incarnates and were just reformers of the Hindu religion and do not recognize Sikhism as a separate and distinct religion.

Do you know who Bhagat Dhanna is. His Bani is in the Guru Granth Sahib. Do you know where he found God?? In a Rock. That Rock that he worshipped with devotion and LOVE. There is a Contradiction then, the Guru are against idol worshipping, yet there is bani of a Bhagat who found god in a rock. Using Logic that is a contradiction and will create doubt within you but using love all doubts are erased. LOVE of God and the Devotion he had in that Rock that even god had to take the form of his devotees Avtaar to satisfy him.

So does that mean we should also worship rocks to find god, no Bhagat dhanna's devotion fell on a Rock, it was simply a medium he used as an excuse to express the innocent love that he had. Simply that, it is the reason of all Moortees in Temples, just an excuse to bring out your inner devotion, but something happened and it just stopped there, nothing further was done to bring it out more, people started to believe that, that was god and that was the end, no. It was just an excuse for you to express the love. Not the end, it was the beginning, next see god in the person next to you, and then see it in the entire universe. It was a path a medium but became the destination.

As for the Message of the Gurus, they avoided any Idol Worshipping not because it was wrong, If it was wrong then so was all of Hinduism. If that was so, then why have Hindu Bhagats bani in the Guru Granth Sahib?? because they wanted to create a different path, that was reformed, that had less turns, less potholes on which people could fall in. As they could see the confusion and the mis-undestand people were having from Pilgrimages and Idol Worshipping. That is only my opinion.

here is the story, rather one interpetation of the story,

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...ighlight=#19006

No, I appreciate your response. It is only through discourse one can excel. By the same token I hope I have not offended you in any way.

Not at all ji, i hope i haven't offended you with nething assumptions i have made regarding your love towrds god/guru.

Waheguru.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ironbangle wrote

The points raised by jamuka in the previous post i agree with, but there is a line between having sharda and prem towards gurbani and worshipping a stone, when sri guru arjan dev ji maharaj used to sleep on the floor and sri adi granth was placed on a manji sahib, would u consider that idol worship?

I guess you have a point. I just woudn't want Sikhism to end up like Hinduism with it's mindless silly rituals.

AmrikSingh wrote

Jamuka what you get out the SGGS is an explanation of the word the Guru, it teaches you something, so when someone respects ......it is not idol worship, you are respecting and loving something which teaches you how to live your life

Agreed.

Amrik wrote

but what you have to understand is god is present everywhere, so when you focus on any object it shows you see god in everything. No that you worship it or say that it is god

From a purely philosophical and spiritual vantage, you have a point and I wholeheartedly agree with you. But you don't realise you're walking a tight rope by making such allegations. You must understand, Sikhism is still a fledgling religion barely taking off and we've got Hindus trying to gobble it up by claiming it is part of Hinduism. What if today we spend 24/7 serving SGGS, then we put up picture os our Gurus and start placing flowers below it, followed by more deviancy by some Sikhs by making idols in the shape of the Gurus and placing flowers at the bottom. What type of Sikhi values are we teaching a young Sikh child thats living in such an environemnt. What is there to stop this kid growing up and start hanging out at the mandirs? How will you try making this indivual believe Sikhism is distinct when it's practises are similar? Within two or three generations, Sikhs will actually start believing that Sikhism IS a sect of Hinduism and bring Hindu teachings into Sikhism and into Sikh temples. I for one find Hindu worship the most dumbest form of religion but thats because I've been raised that way. How would Sikhs want their young to grow up and what values to emulate?

Do you think my story sounds too far fetched? It has happened before right in Harmandir. This is why the Singh Sabha movement had a hard time removing these Hindu elements in Sikh temples. For those of you who don't know about what happened in the 20's at Harmandir check out

http://allaboutsikhs.com/history/his1012.htm

An erxcept from this site...

"The newly baptised "low caste Sikhs", at the annual session of Khalsa Bradari, were taken to the Golden Temple accompanied by reformers. This was a direct challenge to the Mahants. The priets of Sri Harmandir Sahib refused to accept Karah prasad from them or offer prayers for them. However, the reformers insisted on the right of every Sikh to do that. After theological discussions, Sri Guru Garnth Sahib was consulted. The Granthi amongst the objectors, read out third Guru's hymn, "Brother, He showers grace even on those who have no merit and takes from them true Guru's service. By touch of Philosopher's stone, i.e., base metal has become gold ... Our light has blended with His light, and we have become one with Him." The priets, visibly affected offered prayers and accepted prasad from the hands of the newly converted Sikhs."

Do Sikhs want to take the chance of Hindu influence coming back into Sikhism? Hindus to this day do not recognize Sikhism. I say ANY form of Idol worship should be completely erased out of Sikhism and isn't this in line with Gurus teachings?

Can you please define what you mean by idol worship, and worship in general.

Short answer = Hinduism. Idol worship is the act of worshipping a statue/object and believing that is God.

Pheena wrote

First please define what a Mindless Ritual is and how is it related to the task that is done with love and devotion such as cooking food??

Mindless rituals

i) Catholic priests throwing holy water on their congregation

ii) Muslims after performing the Haj get together and throw stones at a stick that supposedly represents evil.

iii) Hindus pouring milk down their Lingam statue God

I am not against devotion for the SGGS but I'm just against overemphasization on such matters as it will eventually become rituals.

It shows in your posts, You see there is no right or wrong in this, you don't want to cook food for the Guru then that is fine, don't do it. Is Guru/God going to punish you if you don't, no. It is your devotion to the guru and everyoen expresses in their own way. Some buy Beautifull Rumallas for the Guru, some don't. Some Place Beautifully sowen covers for the Guru, some don't, Some Buy a Kingsize bed, some don't. Guru is looking for Love not gold, not king size beds, not food, his food is Love. It is your Devotion. Everyones expression of their love and devotion is their own and the Rehat gives us 'A' way in my opinion.

You fail to realise one thing though, devotion comes from within. It is not devotion anymore if it is some rules set by some Maryada.

Logically we can discuss this and end up not beliving that the Rehat is correct. because thru logic you are absolutly correct, but again and again you miss to see the love behind the illogical things being done towards the guru.

These 'illogical' practises that you advocate is very dangerous for the future of Sikhism. Today you say it's A OK to worship the SGGS 24/7. Tommorow or the next generation will make up some new Maryada claiming some picture or staue of the Gurus is ok tobe revered and who is to argue with them when they give you back the very same reasons you are using here to justify your point? And slowly the slip happens and Sikhism will become Hinduism but with different Gods. Your actions will be used as justification for orther 'illogical' actions by younger generations.

Or some were even created out of Superstitions. Even Bowing before the guru can become a Mindless event, as the real purpose is to surrender all that is to the Guru, you surrender your head, your ego to the guru, but you are bowing down and your mind is in a movie, or a girl, or a guy or whether your car is ok, then it has become mindless , because your mind was not invovled in the bowing down. Your mind did not bow, rather you body, it become a duty, meaningless ritual. A performance.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bowing to the Guru an act of respect and not submitting? Sikhism is not like Islam where one has to 'submit' to Allah. Noweher is it written in the SGGS where one has to submit to the Gurus.

Do you think if someone went to mecca with full of Love and devotion towards Allah he is wrong because he is making a Pilgrimage. Do you not go to Amritsar full of love towards the Guru? If he goes to mecca and he comes back with no ego, no more hatred in his heart ready to spread the love that he has received the how is that a bad thing? Was that Pilgrimage still a mindless thing???

Didn't Guru Nanak himself abhor such pilgrimages claiming God is everywhere and there is no need to go to Mecca to attain enlightenment or salvation.

Since you mention ego lets elaborate about it. What is the ego? The ego is the I in us, the self that actually does not exist. This is what the little I know from reading contemparary books. The ego if I'm not mistaken is the I in us....the I that wants money,better job,beautiful wife,material gain.....to defeat the ego is practically impossible. I don't think a pilgrimage to Mecca can defeat the ego as most Muslims perform the Haj so they may start using the title 'Haji'. Hajis are accorded special status in a Muslim society. So if anything, the Haj pilgrimigage actually INFLATES the ego. But I understand your point that what if there is one among the millions who performed the Haj purely to be closer to God but is this happening? Over centuries of time, the actual meaning has been lost. Which is why our Gurus started something from scratch.

Ritualism is still quite popular among many communities. Just the other day I saw a show where in the Phillipinos once a year Phillipinos will nail themsleves up on a cross to emulate how Jesus suffered. Is the person closer to God after such a stupid ritual? I very much doubt it.

As for the Message of the Gurus, they avoided any Idol Worshipping not because it was wrong, If it was wrong then so was all of Hinduism. If that was so, then why have Hindu Bhagats bani in the Guru Granth Sahib??

Can you provide an example? I don't doubt you but the very little I know is that no bhagat or teaching from Vedas were included in the SGGS as the Gurus saw no good in it.

because they wanted to create a different path, that was reformed, that had less turns, less potholes on which people could fall in. As they could see the confusion and the mis-undestand people were having from Pilgrimages and Idol Worshipping. That is only my opinion.

Sikhism is NOT a reformed version of Hinduism. It is a distinct and different religion.

I agree with most of what you wrote. In summary there is no wrong in idol worship if the idol is merely a symbol of your undivided devotion, am I right? It only becomes a ritual if the REAL meaning to it is lost, right? But is this the only way a Sikh can show his love for the man upstairs? Why don't we show devotion to God by actively participating in charities and substituting the idol with people who are in need? Why don't we tell our selves in devotion to Guru, "dear Guru in devotion to you I shall peform 8 hours of community service in the local orphanage?" Must devotion the SGGS be in rituals?

Sikhs should seriously consider their actions when it comes to any rituals lest Sikhs revert back to Hinduism. There are many ways to show love to the SGGS and cooking and attending to the SGGS 24/7 and deciding why type of rummalla to be used is not necessarily one of them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok will only make a short posting as i have a number of things to do!! :)

As far as i know, Guru Ji did call people fools. over and over and over Guru Ji tells us that those who forget Vaheguru in this world and get deluded by maya etc are fools. Call it moorakh, manmukh whatever you like, guru ji clearly distinguishes between the gurmukh and the manmukh. So yes Guru ji did call people like myslef fools.

You say sants etc are nothing to you, but to many other sikhs they mean so much, even guru ji says that i am a sacrifice to those who sing your name and that may he be sacrificed for them. Guru Ji came onto this world to protect those who sing hari's praises, and yet you say that they are worth nothing.

If one was to ask me, your comments towards Bhai Gurdas ji are quite offensive. You dont seem to understand, that nothing bhai gurdas ji wrote was contradictory to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, when people refer to bhai gurdas ji, it is dont in an attempt to explain guru granth sahib ji. Before you say anything else about bhai gurdas ji i would urge you to read even just a few varran to understand what he was saying.

Banda singh bahadur was respected yes, but as far as i know nowhere near the level of bhai gurdas ji, i cant actually belive your arguing over whether or not it is right to quote a vaar!

Also when you want to select quotes.. read the words before the bit you choose to highlight.. you will notice i typed 'after guru ji..' hence saying that after guru ji if you dont understand try reading some vaaran which may help you.

Again you miss understand, Guru ji didnt ask bibi ji to place her foot under there, but she did. If guru ji's throne was to break today, one would hope that a sikh would gladly try and stabilise it, with his own body if need be. Its about love.

I think the discussion is over after having read your comment where you say that comparing the living gurus with Guru Granth Sahib Ji is like comparing oranges and apples.

By this i must assume that you mean that somewhere along the line Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not like the ten guru's? No offence but who are you to say that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not like the other Gurus? Where do you find the audacity to question guru ji? Is Guru Granth Sahib Ji in any way less of a guru due to its form? Do you think Guru Ji is somehow incapable of doing what Guru Arjan Dev ji could have done?

What would you recomend in the following instance, using your comment about not putting your foot under the stool if it broke.

If guru ji was going to be disrespected ie shot, torn thrown, would it be logical for you to sacrifice yourself for guru ji? Would it make sense to take the bullet? Why would it? Surely if guru ji gets shot you can just print another one? After all human life is precious isnt it. What do you recomend?

Guru Gobind Singh reveres all the Guru's in the Dasam Granth. The start of the ardaas that we all read today is by Guru Ji where he remembers each of the gurus and remembers what they do and are capable of doing and what we get for remembering them. Think about it.

Goto go , but another quick thing, Guru Ji says that there is nothing but Gobind everywhere, there is only vaheguru, he can see vaheguru everywhere in everything, so forget the stone, guru ji saw him in atoms too!!!

Ill try and find the gurbani which says the above later!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jamuka,

Gur Fateh!

On the topic of rituals, please could you tell me about the Bhog Ritual which very closely if not identically replicates that found in the Shakat Devi Cults.

Also, matters such as Parkarma (which seems very Hindoo to me), Chaur Sahib Seva over the Sri Guru (which looks remarkably Moghul, and besides, cooling down the Sri Guru? Really?) the standing up during Ardas, eating out of and cooking in iron utensils and so on...

These all seem like rituals in someways, please could you comment...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dont forget the sprinkling of water before Guru ji as well!

In fact if one was to think logically and without heartful emotion then much of the way we treat our guru could be considered ritual.

Before you call something nonsense, think, what i repeated was actually from gurbani. Be careful before you throw words around.

what i wrote was

Guru Nanak Dev Ji critisised the stones as they would be able to help the devotees when it came for them to die, he critisised them for placing their feet on the chests of their 'gods' and asked what type of gods are these which let you do that!

i apologise for missing one word in the first sentance, should have read critisised the stones as they would NOT be able... but the second line is in gurbani, try searching for it and you will see.

Guru ji contains the works of many hindu saints!! Im not even going to start naming them becuase i probably wont be able to name them all, so i wont start. Sant Jarnail Singh used to say that it is wrong to hate a hindu or speak ill of hindu's as in Guru Ji sit many hindu bhagats, same for muslims. it is one thing to critisise a practice another to critisise a whole religion. A brilliant example is that of Bhagat Namdev, he did many hings which we would see as ritualism but guru ji tells us of these events.

I totally agree with the probs of ritualism, yes there are many things that have crept into practice which are incorrect.

But seva of Guru Granth Sahib Ji isnt something you can just dismiss as rituals.

There is little to be gained about arguing whether or not it is correct to do seva 24/7 of Guru Ji, cus to be honest i dont think any of us have that much love for guru ji that we could spend that much time with them. Think honestly when we listen to gurbani how long do we sit there? An hour? 2? Maybe more? My own feeling is that its easier to do seva for sangat and other people than it is to do seva of guru ji. When you serve others you get a slap on the back for doing a good job. when you do seva of guru ji, that is a personal thing between the two of you.

The suggestions given were an outline as i understand of something which should be done. Yes there is nothing written concrete about how things should be done, but there is a general consensus about the basics.

Ultimately i think this topic boils down to the level of satkar given to guru ji which depends on our view of guru ji, do we see Guru Granth Sahib as Guru Nanak in another form? As a somewhat different guru uncapable of doing the same things as the human gurus? Or ... i wont even say the third option you know what it is.

ps, perhaps the reason why we loose satkar for guru ji, is because Guru Ji is TOO accessible.Perhaps if we only got to see guru ji once a month after a long journey then we would think differently about where Guru Ji sits in our lives?

But im not complaining, Guru Ji's darshan on a daily/regular basis are what keep us sane! Without them, who knows where most of us would be!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't have time to reply yet but here's some food for thought on rituals.

Ritualism

1. Burnt be thos rituals and formalities,

Whereby I forget my Beloved Lord.

Man practices rituals in order to control his body,

Yet his mind wanders in all directions.

(Guru III, Vadhans Rag)

2. What are all these rituals worth, If the heart is not sincere?

(Namdevj i, Asa Rag)

3. By mere talk of Him, We are saved not; Nor by reading a load of books;

Without love-worship, one's body is cleansed not.

Guru I, Sri Rag

4. The Pandits read and recite the Vedas, But all for the love of Maya.

(Guru III, Shlokas)

5. If he cleanseth his body from outside, The dirt of the mind goeth not.

(Guru III, Shlokas)

6. The egocentrics repeat the Name of the Lord endlessly,

7. But their dirt sticks-unto their minds

(Guru III, Sri Rag)

8. If mercy be the cotton, contentment the thread,

Continence the knot and truth the twist,

If this be the sacred thread of the soul,

Then O Pandit, put it on me.

This sacred thread neither breaks,

Nor becomes dirty.

Nor it is burnt nor lost;

Blessed are they who put it around their neck and depart.

(Guru I, Asa Rag)

9. When a person died,

The sacred thread fell off,

And he went without the thread.

(Guru I, Asa Rag)

10. A Hindu priest comes to the house of a Hindu,

By reciting Mantras he puts the sacred thread around his neck,

After wearing the sacred thread, If one commits sin,

His purifications go in vain.

(Guru I Ramkali Raga)

11. If one becomes Turk by circumsision,

What can we say about woman?

(Kabirji, Asa Rag)

12. Let gentleness and right restraint, Be thy circumcision.

Guru V, Maru Rag

13. The Lord is not realized, By practising Havana, Yoga, meditation, austerity,And pilgamage to holy places.

Guru V, Bhairo Rag

14. Those are not pure,

Who sit down after taking a bath;

Only those are pure,

In whose heart He dwells.

(Guru I, Asa Rag)

15. He wanders at sixty-eight holy places

Without any gain,

How can he be cleansed of the dirt of sins?

(Guru I, Maru Rag)

16. Let good conduct,

Be thy fasting.

(Guru I, Majh Rag)

17. Those who practice fasts on lunar dates,

Practice them in vain.

(Guru V, Maru Rag)

18. Whosoever controls the mind,

He is a Haji.

(Guru V, Maru Rag)

19. Hear O Pandit, the performer of rites!

The action that brings joy,

Is the concentration on Spiritual Essence.

Guru I, Sorath Rag)

20. Let kindness be thy mosque,

Faith be thy prayer-carpet,

The honest earnings be thy Quran,

Effort be thy circumcision,

And good conduct be thy fast.

(Guru I, MajhRag)

21. Mechanical utterings of mantras, penances,

And all leanings and fixing of the mind on any object,

The discourses on the six Shastras and the Simrities,

The practice of Yoga, the religious rites and rituals,

Renunciation of the world and wandering about in the woods,

And all kinds of efforts made;

Giving jewels in charity and oblations to the sacred fires,

And getting the body cut into bits,

And offering each bit as sacrifice to the deities,

And observance of fasts and vows and other deeds,

With all these, the dirt of ego will not depart.

(Guru V, Gauri Rag)

http://allaboutsikhs.com/quotations/ritualism.htm

Link to post
Share on other sites

And here's a bit more....

Anti-Sikhism

Charnjit Singh Bal

At the advent of Guru Nanak Sahib in 1469 AD inter-Faith rivalry and hostility between the India’s two predominant religions, Hinduism and Islam, were rampant. Both religions claimed to be holier than the other. The Muslim Invaders called the Hindus Infidels and the Hindus called the Muslims Unholy. The sanctimonious clergies and holy quacks of both religions incited religious in-tolerance and hatred in their respective flocks towards the rival Faith. However both Muslims and Hindus indulged in pagan taboos, superstitions, barbaric human and animal sacrifices Idolatry, and blind faith rituals. The reformist Guru Nanak initiated a unique faith, Sikhism that primarily inspires spiritual enlightenment and prohibits futile ritualism and pagan religious practices.

To propagate his religion that blends Monotheism with Pragmatism, Humanism, Liberalism and Pluralism, he embarked upon four odysseys traveling on foot all over the Indian Sub-Continent and Middle East during fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. During his travels the Guru Nanak Sahib collected the Scriptures of medieval pious Hindu and Muslim venerated Sages who subscribed to his religious concepts. Guru Arjun Sahib compiled the scriptures of the preceding Sikh Gurus and Guru Nanak Sahib’s collections in the Guru Granth Sahib that exemplifies universality of the Sikhism’s illuminating Message. However the progressive Sikhism encountered regressions, dissentions, cultism sectarianism and factionalism from the Gurus’ own kith and kin, opportunistic Sikhs and cultist guru pretenders.

Guru Nanak Sahib’s elder son Sri Chand, discontented because the Guru Sahib selected Bhai Lehna Ji on merit for the august seat of Sikh Guru, founded his own un-Sikh ascetic sect. Motivated by jealousy for the same reason Guru Angud Sahib’s Son Daatu kicked Guru Amar Das Sahib and tried to set a parallel Guru-ship that eventually failed.

Guru Arjun Dev Sahib’s older brother Prithi Chand driven by envy swindled the tithe and other offerings meant for the Guru from the Sikh devotees.

Guru Har Rai Sahib’s elder son Ram Rai being deprived of the Guru-ship, for having cringed and distorted a verse of Gurbani to appease the Mogul Emperor Aurangzeb, started his own sect.

Dhir Mal, another pretender to the august seat of Sikh Guru instigated Massund Shinha to murder his uncle Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib. Shinha fired on Guru Sahib, wounded the Guru and looted Guru Sahib’s belongings including the original copy of Guru Granth Sahib.

The Massunds (Sikh Apostles) became arrogant, corrupt and started to embezzle tithes that were meant to preach and promote Sikhism. Guru Gobind Singh discontinued the practice of appointing Massunds.

Discerning Sagely the probable future abuse of the August seat of the Guru by the likes of Dattuji, Prithi Chand, Ram Rai and Dhirmal, Guru Gobind Singh decreed, "All Sikhs to regard the Granth Sahib as their perpetual (spiritual) Guru" which is consistent with the Sikhism’s fundamental tenet, "Word is Guru, Guru is word." The Guru Sahib mandated the collective Sikh Panth (Nation) to administer the temporal Authority of Sikhism democratically. Unfortunately for the Sikhism and Sikh Community, neither that decree nor the noble message of the Sikhism has deterred some opportunists from misusing and abusing the Sikh religion for the self-serving ambitions.

Radhaswami, Nirankari, Namdhari, Nanaksari cultist Gurus and Tuksaals (standardized study of Sikh Theology Institutions) have customized and commercialized the Sikh religion and set up their own Fiefdoms. Even some main stream Sikh leaders and preachers who are devoid of the essence of Sikhism’s progressive philosophy and illuminating Gurbani (Sikh scriptures) keep misleading the Sikh community back to the era of darkness from which the Gurus tried to extricate the Sikhs.

From mid eighteenth century till nineteen-twenties, a span of a century and a half, the Sikh Nation was engaged in Life and death struggle against the Muslim and Christian Colonialism, Imperialism and Jihads/Crusades. During these crucial times the Nirmlas, Mahants and Poojaris who had the control of the Sikh Gurdwaras (Temples) introduced Idol worship, ritualism, superstition and taboos into the into Sikhism. They embezzled donations and funds, held endowment lands titles in their names and lived a life of sin and perversion in the Gurdwaras.

The Hindu mythology oriented anonymous or pseudonymous (imposter) Sikh writers and Pundits cunningly adulterated Sikh History and Philosophy with mythology, wizardry and witchcraft. These writers, products of Hindu religious institutions, wrote the so-called Granths with ulterior motives to obliterate unique Sikh identity and assimilate progressive monotheistic Sikhism that promotes spiritual enlightenment into primitive Hinduism that fosters polytheism, idolatry, dogmatic ritualism, blind faith taboos, superstitions and prejudices.

One such Granth, ‘Gurblas Patshahi 6’, written by an anonymous writer, edited by the Sikh leader Joginder Singh Vedanti (one who practices Hindu Vedanta) and Dr. Amarjit Singh and sponsored by the thirteen so-called elite Sikh scholars and leaders was recently published by the S. G. P C. Due to the overwhelming criticism from the Sikh Intelligentsia and writers that Granth has been taken off the market but there are many more of that type in circulation. A so-called Dassam Granth, compilation of many scripts by anonymous writers but mischievously purported and propagated to be the Scriptures by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib contains fiction, mythology, wizardry and explicit eroticism.

The proponents and propagators of this dubious literature have succeeded to a large extent in their sinister plot in beguiling Sikh majority and contaminating the Sikh History and quintessential philosophy with mythology, dogmatism, polytheism, wizardry witchcraft, eroticism, etc. Whereas the majority of innocent Sikh’s inability to grasp the Sikhism’s essential message is a simple failure on their part, the role of the numerous cultist Guru pretenders, half literate preachers, self-serving main stream Sikh leaders which propagate such blasphemous literature as integral part of Sikh history and philosophy is much more detrimental.

Consequently the practice of Sikhism, a pragmatic faith of knowledge is replete with blind faith, prejudices, dogmatic rituals, Idolatry, pagan taboos and superstitions. Sikh religious services and ceremonies are performed at the Sikh Gurdwaras (temples) at a price commensurate with the Sikh’s perceptual devotion and ability to pay to invoke God’s benedictions and Guru’s blessings. The international Sikh community has been fragmented into numerous sects, cults and antagonistic factions.

The genuine Sikh Scholars have refuted with convincing arguments the compatibility of the mythical, wizardly and erotic contents of these Granths’ with the illuminating philosophy of the Guru Granth Sahib’s quintessential Gurbani. They have also revealed that the anonymous, pseudonym and quasi-Sikh writers wrote these so-called Granths with ulterior motives. But instead of acclaiming and honoring them, the half literate opportunistic Sikh Leaders who have had strangle-hold on Sikh Nation, have criticized, bullied and ostracized them and banned their books.

One of the most prominent Sikh Scholars ever Bhai Kahn Singh writes, "the earlier and contemporary writers of our Faith have written numerous books on (Sikh) history, code and conventions according to their beliefs and mental tendencies. These books are both beneficial and harmful i.e. the subject matter compatible with essential message of Sikh Gurus’ edification is beneficial otherwise it is harmful."

"The in-depth study of these Granths gives the impression that the poets of our Faith have blundered in copying the authors of religious books of other Faiths. They have bundled and dyed the social, political and religious principles in the religious color. It is all the more saddening that there are very few analytical minded Sikh scholars seeking the truth. In fact the opponents, those who call the rational minded writers and speakers agnostics, are in majority."

Rattan Singh Jaggi who did an in-depth review of the Dassam Granth writes, "The subject matter in the Chritro Pakhyan is so erotic and its language is so sexually explicit that in some places it surpasses even the (Hindu) Koke Shastra or Kama Shastra (Erotica Manual)"

Prof. Harinder Singh Mehboob writes, "The devious activity of contaminating the Granths and attributing the heretical writings to the Sikh Gurus has often been perpetrated repeatedly. This insidious activity has been pursued at the instigation of the mischievous and jealous people (inimical to Sikhism)."

Prominent Sikh academician Pr. Harbhajan Singh in his Punjabi book ‘Selected Articles on Dassam Granth’ writes, "In their wild flights of fancy both authors, (Bhai Santokh Singh of Suraj Prakash and the dubious writer of Dassam Granth’s Bachitir Natak) left no deficiency in fabricating blatant Gossips and mythical Fantasies."

Prof. Gurmukh Singh’s Ex-communication

The ex-communication of a true Sikh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh is an epitome (prime example) of abuse of illicit power by a bunch of self-serving religious leaders. At the time of his ex-communication Prof. Gurmukh Singh, one of pioneer founders of the reformist Sikh movement Singh Sabha, was actively pursuing his goal to establish the first Khalsa College at Amritsar. The band of pretenders to the Sikh spiritual and temporal Authority not only ex-communicated Prof. Gurmukh Singh but also incited the Sikh community not to render him financial help to carry out his missionary work and the noble cause of founding the Khalsa College.

In 1883 Akal Takht head Granthi Bedi Khem Singh proclaimed himself as the Sikh Guru. Aided and abetted by his cohorts, Rajah Bikram Singh of Fridkote, Mahants , Pujaris and other Guru pretenders, he ex-communicated a genuine Sikh scholar and missionary Prof. Gurmukh Singh who criticized him for the un-Sikh act in 1887. They harassed and hounded Giani Dit Singh who dared to condemn their anti-Sikhism activity and canvass support for Prof. Gurmukh Singh to an early grave.

The un-Sikh activities of Khem Singh Bedi and his cohorts are indicative of the sly religious leaders’ ability to manipulate repressive proceedings against a devout religious person. Some of the unjust accusations leveled against Prof. Gurmukh Singh who dedicated his life to the noble causes of reforming the Sikhism’s management and preaching system and eradication of wide spread illiteracy among the community were:-

1) He does not revere the Sikh Gurus’ descents, (pretenders to Sikh Guru-ship).

2) Twenty pictures of Avtars (Hindu Mythical god incarnates), were burned during a convention of Lahore Singh Sabha (Forum) to refute their existence.

3) A Hindu convert to Islam was baptized as a Singh by the Lahore Singh Sabha.

4) In an article published in the Khalsa Newspaper he wrote, "Worship of weapons in the Sikh Gurdwaras is copy of Hindu ritual that is against Guru’s edification."

To an intelligent student of Sikh theology it is clear the ex-communication of Prof. Gurmukh Singh was a case of blatant abuse of illicit spiritual and temporal authority and the heretics punishing the pious Sikh. Prof. Manjit Singh revoked this dictatorial edict in 1995 and acclaimed Prof. Gurmukh Singh as a true Sikh.

Giani Bhag Singh’s ex-communication

The ex-communication of Giani Bhag Singh exemplifies how the conniving religious leaders wield the authority to destroy those who dare to dissent. Giani Bhag Singh’s Book ‘Dassam Granth Nirnay’ (critique) was published in 1976. The book publication caused great deal of controversy amongst the Sikh community. During this period of controversy Giani Bhag Singh and Giani Sant Singh Muskeen were in Indore on lecture tours. As usual at one place when asked Muskeen told congregation that Akhand Path is compatible with the Guru’s edification while at another he said it is not. And when Giani Bhag Singh mentioned about these contradictions Muskeen was naturally resentful.

During his lectures at Rajauri Gardens’ Gurudwara, Delhi, Muskeen quoted some verses from the Dassam Granth’s spurious scriptures. Some young Sikhs argued with Muskeen and told him that the verses he had quoted were not that of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Although the young Sikhs were absolutely right, Muskeen adamantly refused to concede that he was wrong. Next day they had some scripts from Dassam Granth printed and asked Muskeen to preach the scripts to the Sikh congregation. Muskeen refused and accused Giani Bhag Singh of sending the thugs (young Sikhs) to insult him.

Muskeen approached his friend Golden Temple Head Granthi, Giani Chet Singh. Both Muskeen and Chet Singh instigated Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Sadhu Singh Bhaura (from my village Bhaura) to issue Hokum-nama (edict) to ex-communicate Giani Bhag Singh. However in view of the controversy amongst Sikh community the S. G. P. C. decided to call an ad-hoc advisory committee meeting that was chaired by Giani Sadhu Singh. When at this meeting the research Sikh Historian Shamsher Singh Ashoke who had also written a critical review on Dassam Granth tried to express his views, he was shouted down by the prejudiced members.

When Pr. Harbhajan Singh asked all the 15 members at the meeting, if anyone had studied the Dassam Granth analytically, their silence conveyed the negative reply. And he asked them, (1) if the Dassam Granth’s authenticity controversy wasn’t as old as the Granth itself? (2) Didn’t the Akal Takht Jathedar and Granthi Singh Sahiban reply in June 1973 through Assistant Sec. S. Gurbakhsh Singh to Santokh of Chandigarh that Chritro Pakhyan is not Guru Gobind Singh’s work? (3) Aren’t we, the high-ranking Sikh personalities, too eager to condemn a pious person without his representation?

Note:- In a reply No. 36672 dated 3rd August 1973 to S Santokh Singh (Chandigarh) the religious preaching sub-Committee of S. G. P .C. wrote, "In regard to your inquiry of 6th July 1973 the views of Singh Sahiban of Derbar Sahib and Akal Takht Jathedar are being sent to you. "Chritro Pakhyan in the Dassam Granth is not Guru Gobind Singh’s Scriptures. These are copies of the primitive Hindu mythical tales." Signed, Gurbakhsh Singh, Assistant Secretary, Religious Preaching Committee, Shrimoni G. P. Committee, Amritsar.

Pr. Harbhajan Singh’s wisdom prevailed in drafting and passing two resolutions unanimously, (1) Giani Bhag Singh should have presented his side of the case in detail to the Panth instead of two-line comment. (2) Since with time the issue is getting serious, this committee humbly requests the S. G .P. C. to institute a sub-committee of prominent Sikh Scholars to authenticate the Dassam Granth’s scripts that are compatible with the Guru Granth Sahib’s philosophy and Guru’s Ideals. No punishment was considered appropriate for Giani Bhag Singh.

Despite these unanimous consensus that were reached at the meeting Giani Bhag Singh was ex-communicated on 5th July 1977 in a mystifying manner. The same bunch of Singh-Sahiban (Giani Bhaura, Giani Chet Singh and Giani Kirpal Singh) who said that Chritro Pakhyan wasn’t Guru Gobind Singh’s Work and were also star participants at the meeting to adjudge Giani Bhag Singh, ex-communicated him.

The concerned Sikh Scholars Pr. Harbhajan Singh, Giani Surjit Singh, Bhai Milap Singh and Amar Singh conferred with each other to have the edict issue redressed. Bhai Amar Singh Aligarh, who knew Jathedar Bhaura when he was a Granthi, convinced him of his folly. Jathedar Bhaura agreed to rescind the edict. Bhai Amar Singh, Giani Surjit Singh and S. Milap Singh were to accompany Giani Bhag Singh to Akal Takht to have the edict rescinded.

Muskeen who came to know about this visit, cunningly took Giani Bhag Singh to Akal Takht himself at his own expense. Jathedar Bhaura had a paper with a text, "Giani Bhag Singh has apologized regarding Ardas (Sikh Litany) and Chaupie (a lyrical supplication from Dassam Granth)" typed in advance. When it was given to old and feeble Giani Bhag Singh to sign, he accidentally dropped his reading glasses. Both Bhaura and Muskeen said, leave the glasses; don’t you trust us? They practically tricked Giani Bhag Singh into signing the apology that he deeply regretted. He told Giani Surjit Singh with tears in his eyes that Muskeen had tricked him.

Jathedar Aroor Singh declared Kamagata Maru returnees from Canada in 1915 as un-Sikhs at the behest of the British Government of India; and awarded Gen. Dyre who massacred hundreds of Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims on 1919 Vaisakhi day in the Jallianwala Baug, with a Saropa (the Sikh scarf of honour).

During the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh Sikhism was sacrificed at the altar of Secularism. Although he built many Sikh Gurdwaras and allotted endowed lands to these Gurdwaras, no real attempts were made to counter the corruptive influences of the sly Brahmins, impostor Sikh Gurus, zealous Hindu and Muslim clerics and holy quacks. The Maharaja’s folly to trust and appoint the Hindu Dogra brothers Dhyan Singh and Gulaub Singh and brothers Teja Singh and Lall Singh from U. P. to the elite posts proved to be fatal for the Sikh Raj. Soon after the Maharaja’s death in 1839, treachery and intrigues of these traitors enabled the British to occupy Punjab. As usual the ‘Holier than Thou’ Christian Missionaries who without fail followed the Christian Conquistadors (Conquerors), spread their proselytizing (conversionary) tentacles in Punjab and built the Missionary Network.

The Muslim and the Christian imperialists made two pronged intrusions into Sikhism. On one hand they un-leashed brute power of imperialism especially the Muslims who butchered children in front of the mothers to force conversion to Islam. On the other hand they enticed potential converts with endowment lands and elite posts. Then there were the Christian Missionaries and Muslim Quazis, and holy men/quacks to convert the weaklings, impoverished and the naïve.

Note:- Although hunted and massacred on the genocidal scale, the eighteenth and nineteenth Century Sikhs resisted the Muslim and Christian onslaughts valiantly.

However the Hindus deprived of political powers for nearly a thousand years used insidious means to either obliterate the progressive Sikhism’s unique identity and swallow it into Hinduism or proclaim it as a sect of Hinduism. With the downfall of the ruling Muslims who called the Hindus as Kaffirs (Pagans) and considered converting them to Islam as a benevolent act, the ultra Hindu fundamentalists were emboldened. Whereas in the past they targeted Sikhism covertly, now started to malign the Sikh Gurus and Sikhism openly.

Acting on the Hindu cultist Vivaka Nanda’s devious advice, "If you want to root out a religion, cast doubts about the historical facts of its founders", Daya Nand the founder of radical Arya Samaj (Aryan Social Order) launched vicious attacks on the Sikh Gurus and Sikhism. He denigrated Guru Nanak Sahib with remarks, "Ideals of Nanak Ji were noble but he was illiterate; why would he otherwise write Sanskrit word nirbhya as nirbhow? Since he (Guru Nanak Ji) had some ego, he must have resorted to some deceit for the sake of his conceit."

That Daya Nand was an ignorant Charlatan is evident from the fact that Guru Nanak Sahib wrote, preached and sang his Scriptural compositions in the colloquial language of the people of Punjab, Punjabi that was in use before Guru Nanak’s time. Venerated Muslim Sage Sheik Freed who lived couple centuries (1173-1266 AD) before Guru Nanak wrote Scriptures in Punjabi. Guru Nanak Sahib collected and Guru Arjan Sahib compiled these Scriptures in the Guru Granth Sahib.

Like all impostors Daya Nand was a liar, duplicitous and cunning. Giani Dit Singh, his contemporary writes, "Once during his discourse at Brahm Smaj Temple he stated that the Sun orbits around the Earth and supported his statement with quotes from the Vedas. However later at the residence when a companion Saien Das told him that since today’s advanced Astronomy confirms that the Earth orbits around the Sun, people will not think highly of Vedas. Daya Nand said that he should have been told me earlier; now I will refute the statement tomorrow.

Next day he contradicted his own statement by saying, "Yesterday when I said that the Sun orbits around the Earth, that is the assertion of the adversaries. That is how they interpret the concepts of Vedas. Actually these concepts confirm that the Sun doesn’t orbit around the earth, but the Earth orbits around the Sun."

The Rashtrya Svayam Savek Sang (R. S. S.), a radical Hindu fundamentalist organization sprouted eight decades ago. Its strategy is more insidious. To obliterate the unique Sikh identity and proclaim Sikhism as a sect of Hinduism, R .S. S. is promoting and preaching the so-called Granths written by dubious Scholars. The subject matter of these Granths is contaminated with Hindu mythology, polytheism, wizardry Idolatry, blind faith ritualism, eroticism, etc. that are totally contrary to the Monotheistic, pragmatic and spiritually illuminating doctrines of the Guru Granth Sahib’s quintessential Gurbani.

In a clandestine move the Hindu R. S. S. has spawned an ill-conceived organization called Rashtrya Sikh Sangat that has same initials as the promiscuous mother organization to beguile the gullible Sikhs and non-Sikhs. The discerning Sikhs Scholars and Intelligentsia contend that the cagey Hindu R. S. S. has created Rashtrya Sikh Sangat and filled its ranks with the mercenary Hindus and naïve Sikhs to boost its efforts to propagate distorted facts from Sikh History and misinterpretations of the selected verses from the Guru Granth Sahib’s Gurbani.

Some misguided or naive Sikhs, zealous Hindus and mercenaries are helping R. S. S in its deviant designs. Because the concerned Sikh Scholars and intelligentsia challenge the deceitful agenda of the R. S. S., a Sikh lawyer Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba characterizes the call of Institute of Sikh Studies to reject the Dassam Granth, "irrational, motivated and sacrilege." And a self-beatified Sikh Saint (also known as Serkari Saadh) Virsa Singh of Delhi is distributing translations of Dassam Granth.

The R. S. S. president Mr. Sudershan claims, "The Sikhs were created to defend Hindu Faith from the tyranny of the Mogul Rulers; and the two Hundred and fifty thousand Sikhs killed during the (1717-1799 AD) extreme Mogul tyranny were originally Hindus who made supreme sacrifices to defend the Hindu Faith."

One wonders why didn’t these original Hindus make supreme sacrifices to defend Hinduism when the tyrannical Muslim Rulers forcibly converted enormous number of Hindus to Islam? And why didn’t the original Hindus make supreme sacrifices when Mohamed Bin-Kasam, who was by the Khalifa of Baghdad, conquered India’s principality of Sindh in the eighth century with just 700 hundred men?

Mehmood Gaznavi advanced all the way to Hinduism’s most sacred shrine Som Nath, smashed the Idols, looted gold doors with gold inlay and took away Hindu women as concubines and slaves?

If the Hindus were capable of making supreme sacrifices why was India slave to the Muslim invaders for seven centuries until the three hundred year old Sikh panth dealt fatal blows to the tyrannical Mogul Rule in the late seventeen and early eighteen centuries when Himalayan Hindu Principalities were banding with the Moguls. The Sikhs that constitute two percent of the total population of India’s predominantly Hindu society made eighty percent of the sacrifices to oust the British imperialists that ruled India for two centuries and Sikh Homeland, Punjab, for one century

Only an ignorant or insidious can proclaim the Sikhs, who came from all castes and creeds to adopt Sikhism by choice, original Hindus. A man of Mr. Sudershan’s credentials can be called ignorant.

The origin of Sikhism was motivated by the noble concepts of universal religious freedom and socio-cultural Liberalism. Ever since its inception the Sikhism has espoused and made supreme sacrifices for these noble causes The authentic Sikh History is witness to the valiant acts of defiance of the Sikh Gurus, Muslim and Hindu holy Sages (co-authors of Guru Granth Sahib) and numerous Sikh Martyrs for these noble causes. Conversely the Sikhism would have defended the Muslims’ right to religious freedom under tyrannical Hindu Rulers.

http://www.sikhsundesh.net/antisikhism.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bowing to the Guru an act of respect and not submitting? Sikhism is not like Islam where one has to 'submit' to Allah. Noweher is it written in the SGGS where one has to submit to the Gurus.

I shall have to disagree with you on that Jamuka Ji, we submit to His will and Hukam the day we take Amrit, or bow in front of our Guru. That is submission, 'Jau toh prem khelan ka chau, sir dhar talee galee moree ayo'. When Guru Ji asks to give your head to enter this faith, he doesn't mean it literally otherwise the Punj Pyare would not have returned with their heads intact and joined on the bodies. He means we must surrender and submit to His Hukam, surrender our ego. If we have our own opinions, we can never accept His opinions, as long as there is 'I' there can never be progress, because that is being ManMukh. GurMukh is a person who puts Guru Ji first, encompassing his Hukams and opinions, and leaves his aside. This is submission to His will, there are many examples in the Gurbani where Guru Nanak Dev Ji has mentioned submitting to His will as the only way to realisation.

hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||

O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes thank you jamuka, i think were all aware of what Guru Ji says about rituals.

Do me a favour go to the same search engine, or book etc and search for 'serve the guru' or something along those lines.

Tell me how much gurbani there is about how the true sikh will always do the ultimate seva of his guru, the guru who will unite him with the husband lord etc etc

Ps your last posted article seemed substatially about Dasam Granth, thats a different topic altogether!! And also another thing you might have missed, all these groups rss, radhaswamis narakdhari's etc etc, were oppossed openly and most strongly against by Sant Jarnail Singh. Nobody had the corage to do parchar against them the way he did, and guess what.... he also did katha of Dasam Granth, he also believed that Dasam Granth di bani is that of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharajh.

So unless you plan to oppose these groups to the level that sant ji did and raise sikh gian amongst the youth to that level, perhaps your comments count for a little less than his did. (i say this knowing full well that you dont care about these people.. your loss!)

Ps can i add that i love the sukhasan time. You get such a feeling when Guru ji is prepared for rest, and its so wonderful watching the sangat follow guru ji to the door of their chambers (sachkand). I hear that this seva should preferably be done with panj singh present, its a shame that doesnt always happen, but beautiful all the same! Ps we have some solid Auntie's at the gurdwara sahib who are present for both the morning and evening, they get there at like 2 in the morning, do simran seva etc wait for parkash listen to hukumnama gurbani.. go work then back at night to see maharajh to sachkand!! Solid man!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mindless rituals

i) Catholic priests throwing holy water on their congregation

ii) Muslims after performing the Haj get together and throw stones at a stick that supposedly represents evil.

iii) Hindus pouring milk down their Lingam statue God

I am not against devotion for the SGGS but I'm just against overemphasization on such matters as it will eventually become rituals.

You fail to realise one thing though, devotion comes from within. It is not devotion anymore if it is some rules set by some Maryada.

I agree with you that devotion has to come from the inside and yes if someone does read the Rehat and it says taht to place such and such rumallas on the SGGS, and that person performs that activity and says ok i've done my devotion. Well that is obviously not devotion, it is simply following directions. It should've sparked somethign within you but it came out as a duty.

There is also the Sikh Rehat which is the guidelines to how a Sikh is suppose to live. As the Devotion has to come from with in then as can the Rehat of a Sikh, no? So is there a need for maryada then?? I feel that some type of maryada is necessary as it bring a sense of Unity to the Panth. Instead of everyone doing their own things there has to be some set of Guidelines.

These 'illogical' practises that you advocate is very dangerous for the future of Sikhism. Today you say it's A OK to worship the SGGS 24/7. Tommorow or the next generation will make up some new Maryada claiming some picture or staue of the Gurus is ok tobe revered and who is to argue with them when they give you back the very same reasons you are using here to justify your point? And slowly the slip happens and Sikhism will become Hinduism but with different Gods. Your actions will be used as justification for orther 'illogical' actions by younger generations.

no bro, i never said its ok to worshipping. i m saying to show love and devotion and the rehat presents 'a' way to express that love. As you said that love has to arise from within but in Sikhi, great emphasis is placed on Rehat Maryada. Sometimes i myself have a difficult time trying to understand the purpose of the Rehat.

If that Rehat can be ntohing but Mind-less rituals, then is any Rehat Safe, especially the Rehat of a Sikh?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bowing to the Guru an act of respect and not submitting? Sikhism is not like Islam where one has to 'submit' to Allah. Noweher is it written in the SGGS where one has to submit to the Gurus.

Surrender your ego to the guru, surrender your will to the Guru and let his will be your, let his Hukam be your will. Respect is also a part of bowing down, but i can Respect something and still not follow it whole-heartdly. I can Respect the Guru for who he is, but i still have my own will. Respect is simply an show of appreciation, gratitude. Respect can be a step, but the next step is to surrender. Bowing down you become Humble, because the EGO is destroyed slowly by bowing down mindfully. The EGO doesn't want to bow down to anyone. Bow down and bring down the ego as well. The 10th Guru asked for the Head of Sikhs, not the Respect of Sikhs. Asking for the head is symbolizing Surrender. Bowing is only bowing when the bowing takes over, it simply happens on its own. If 'You' are the doer, it is still not being done completly.

May I ask what is wrong with submitting to Allah?

Page 587, Line 18 -- Guru Amar Das

qnu mnu Dnu ArpI iqn kau iniv iniv lwgau pwie ]

I dedicate my mind, soul and wealth to them; bowing low, I fall at their feet.

If you were to search for the word Bowing in the SGGS, you'd find that it is being repeated, the bowing is being repeated again and again. It cannot be just to show respect, in my thinking it has to be something much more deeper within you, your love, your humility, your surrender.

Didn't Guru Nanak himself abhor such pilgrimages claiming God is everywhere and there is no need to go to Mecca to attain enlightenment or salvation.

I agree, he did because people were searching outside, not within , their faith was in a building, not in allah that's resided in their own heart.

Since you mention ego lets elaborate about it. What is the ego? The ego is the I in us, the self that actually does not exist. This is what the little I know from reading contemparary books. The ego if I'm not mistaken is the I in us....the I that wants money,better job,beautiful wife,material gain.....to defeat the ego is practically impossible. I don't think a pilgrimage to Mecca can defeat the ego as most Muslims perform the Haj so they may start using the title 'Haji'. Hajis are accorded special status in a Muslim society. So if anything, the Haj pilgrimigage actually INFLATES the ego. But I understand your point that what if there is one among the millions who performed the Haj purely to be closer to God but is this happening? Over centuries of time, the actual meaning has been lost. Which is why our Gurus started something from scratch.

I completly agree with you, and yes that one amongst million has performed the haj correctly, because he went with complete surrender in his heart, not to get a title attached to his name rather to get god attached in his heart.

I am reminded of this story i heard, i'll try my best to put it into words. In hinduism devotees go on a Pilgrimage where they take water from the Ganaga towards a Mandir (can't remmeber what the name of the Mandir is) quite far away and they travel on foot. On the way this devotee was walking along in a pack of people and his eye fell on a dog who was dying of thirst. The dog was lying on his side near death and the devotee ran up to the animal and started to give it water. As the other devotees watched him they asked him in surprise as to what is he doing, that water is to be taken to the mandir. Ignoring them he continued to give him water and as the story goes, right then and there the Avtaar of the Mandir to which the devotees were going appear in place of the dog and liberated him for he saw the importance of life not a pilgrimage. He saw more God in that dog than there is in a building or a statue.

Simiilar story in buddhism is also there in which the plant is watered.

Can you provide an example? I don't doubt you but the very little I know is that no bhagat or teaching from Vedas were included in the SGGS as the Gurus saw no good in it.

Here is a list of all the Gurus/Bhagats whose bani is in the SGGS, it is in the order of Raags, but you can see their names. I hope that is what you are asking for, if not please let me know.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/ggsindex.asp

Sikhism is NOT a reformed version of Hinduism. It is a distinct and different religion.

You are correct, that was a very poor choice of words on my part. My apologies.

I agree with most of what you wrote. In summary there is no wrong in idol worship if the idol is merely a symbol of your undivided devotion, am I right? It only becomes a ritual if the REAL meaning to it is lost, right? But is this the only way a Sikh can show his love for the man upstairs? Why don't we show devotion to God by actively participating in charities and substituting the idol with people who are in need? Why don't we tell our selves in devotion to Guru, "dear Guru in devotion to you I shall peform 8 hours of community service in the local orphanage?" Must devotion the SGGS be in rituals?

I whole heartdly agree with you. Is the Rehat worth following when the devotion has to arise from within you towards the Guru and If the real devotion is within you and when you follow a set of rule, does it diminish the possibility of a spark within you of your personal devotion arising within you? As i stated in the previous post, The Rehat is 'A' way, not the only way, your Love, your True Love will bring about its own rehat towards your guru, your own leela between you and your guru.

Yes there should be Love towards Soceity, but should we just ignore the SGGS and not decorate it, not place beautifull flowers or rumallas on it?? Our Gurus wore Beautifull Clothes, why not the rumallas then for our Guru?? After all Sikhs say it is a Living Guru, if you think otherwise then please say so. Is that considered Idol Worshipping because the SGGS is being placed on a King-Size bed or decorated with Rumallas. Well then what difference is the gold on Harmandir sahib, it is decorated with gold. The SOLE reason the Beauty of harmandir Sahib is there IS because of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Millions upon Millions of sikhs come there not for the Gold, but for the Guru Granth Sahib. These things towards the Guru are necessary, as for how far you want to take it before it becomes a Ritual can be argued about. But if we to think that it is the Living Guru then lets treat it as such. When the 10 Gurus were in the physical presence, people used to bring gift to the guru in clothes or other ways. What ever the love an individual had for the guru and the economical postition he was in. The guru accepted whatever gift was given, not because of the Gift itself, but because of the LOVE that the indiviudal brought it with. One could bring a diamond to the guru and another could bring a pair of shoes for the Guru, Whoever brought love along with the gift or whomever did seva with Love was the one who caught the Gurus eye.

Sikhs should seriously consider their actions when it comes to any rituals lest Sikhs revert back to Hinduism. There are many ways to show love to the SGGS and cooking and attending to the SGGS 24/7 and deciding why type of rummalla to be used is not necessarily one of them.

revert back to hinduism? did we come from hinduism to revert back to being hindu?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this in another thread and I am compelled to post it here as well as the message can serve this discussion here as well. Below are assertions of some of the writers here who claim it is ok in Sikhism to pray to a stone quoting Bhai Gurdas and Bhagat Dhanna.

Sahajleen Kaur Khalsa wrote

Bhagat Dhanna worshipped a stone idol and saw God in all. His example has been given in Bhai Gurdas Ji's Varan, is the Gurbani wrong? Was Guru Ji protesting against the people who were doing rituals with empty hearts, or against those with full devotion who had a right to perform them (Dhanna?).

Do you read anything about Sikh History? Bhai Gurdas Ji's Varan were considered the 'KEY' to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji by our GURU. Is that not enough evidence for you? You have some serious reading to do mate. Well, the Punj Pyarey are not 'the Guru' in your definition, so should we disregard their Hukam at the Amrit Sanchaars?

Pheena wrote

It is the Love of a Hindu man towards his God in a Temple, it is his devotion that allows him to see God in a Rock, it begins there, but it shall not end there. If the love of a man towards his god can see God in a Rock where do you think that will lead him, it will lead him to see that God in all and after seeing that do you think he will be able to hurt anyone, rob anyone or see any difference.

Baba Manochal wrote

Also Guru Nanak Dev Ji did see God in the stone, he saw it in everything.

Here is proof that Sikhism is totally against idol worship. This is straight from the Gurus, not from some Bhai,Sant or Baba. Those who advocate idol worship within Sikhism stating what some Bhai,Baba or Sant said I humbly believe have strayed from Gurus command and should not call themselves Sikhs anymore. What I can't understand is how some can quote some Baba,Bhai or Sant put choose to ignore the very crux of Gurus teachings. There were some who were in fact pretty emotional when I criticised this line of thinking. Well, below is what Guru Ji the only and final authority in Sikhism stated. Are you all questioning Guru Ji's teachings?

This is also proof that Shashtras and Vedas were looked down upon which is why they were never included in the SGGS.

Sikhism and Other Religions

Hinduism

Bani Concerning Hinduism

Similarities

Reincarnation

Like Hinduism Sikhims believes in the transmigration of the soul. There are countless cycles of births and deaths. One only breaks this cycle when they achieve mukhti (merger with God)

Karma

Karma regulates the reincarnation and transmigration of the soul, Sikhism links Karma with the doctrine of Grace.

"Mortals obtain a human body as a result of good deeds but he reaches the gate ofsalvation with God's kind grace." (Guru Nanak, Japji)

Maya

The world is just an illusion and some get enchanted with this illusion and forget God

Differences

Sikhism rejects polytheism and accepts monotheism. Whereas Sikhism starts with one God and universalizes Him, Hinduism starts with many Gods and occasionally gives glimpses of 'One'.

"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh, Krishna Avatar)

Authority of the Vedas and the belief that the truth revealed in them is absolute and that reading them one can realize perfection.

"I have read all the Vedas, but my mind's separation from God is not removed and the five demons of my house (body) are stilled not even for an instant." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadis, pg. 687)

Sikhism does not recognize any priestly class.

"Kabir, the Brahman may be the Guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the saints. He rots to death in the perplexities of the four Vedas" (Bhagat Kabir, Salok, pg. 1377)

Rejection of the Ashrama Dharma theory of dividing man's life into four stages. Instead the Gurus emphasized living the householders life. Rejection of the Varna distinction of division of human society into higher and lower castes.

"There are four castes of the literates, warriors, cultivators and menials and the four stages of life. He who meditates on the Lord is the most distinguished amongst men." (Guru Ram Das, Gond, pg. 861)

"The Lord asks not mortals caste and birth, so find thou out the Lord's True Home (truth). That alone is man's caste and that his glory, as are the deeds which he does." (Guru Nanak, Parbhati, pg. 1330)

The Gurus rejected the Avtara theory of the incarnations of God. The Gurus not only exposed the mortality of these gods but used stories to illustrate moral values, such as 'pride leads to a fall' illustrated by the story of Harnakhash, untouchability becoming superior through devotion to God by Krishna stories and stories where Bhrahma, Vishnu and Shiva are shown to be ordinary mortals. The Gurus stressed that there is only one God and that these gods and goddeses were not true.

"In every age, the Lord creates the kings, who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits." (Guru Amar Das, Ashtpadis, pg. 423)

"Millions of incarnations of Vishnu and Shiv, with matted hair Desire Thee, O Kind Lord, with endless longing of their mind and body. Infinite and Inaccessible is Lord, the World Sustainer, and He is the Omnipresent wealthy Master. The gods, perfect persons, heavenly heralds and celestial singers contemplate on Thee. The greater gods and heavenly dancers utter Thine praises. Myrids of kings, gods and many super human beings remember the Lord and hail Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Chhant, pg. 455)

Worship of idols and images.

"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Guru Ram Das, Malar, pg. 1264)

"They who say the stone is a god; in vain is their service. He who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labour. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service." (Guru Arjan Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1160)

The Gita and Vedanta goal of a Mukt. Once he achieves salvation he does not live for the community. In Sikhism the Gurmukh achieving salvation lives to save others.

"Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241)

Belief that reading of the six Shastras and their mastery will bring salvation.

"The greatly voluminous Simirtis and Shastras stretch out the extension of worldly love. The fools read them, but know not their Lord. Some rare one knows Him by the Guru's grace. Of Himself the Creator does and makes others do. By means of the True Bani, He implants truth within the mortal." (Guru Amar Das, Maru, pg. 1053)

"Many Shashtras and many Simirtis have I seen and searched them all. Nanak, they equal not Lord God's invaluable Name." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 265)

Rejection of Sanskrit or any language as being sacred.

http://www.sikhs.org/relig_h.htm

Pheena wrote

revert back to hinduism? did we come from hinduism to revert back to being hindu?

Ooops my bad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

I posted this in another thread and I am compelled to post it here as well as the message can serve this discussion here as well. Below are assertions of some of the writers here who claim it is ok in Sikhism to pray to a stone quoting Bhai Gurdas and Bhagat Dhanna.

Sahajleen Kaur Khalsa wrote

Pheena wrote

Baba Manochal wrote

Here is proof that Sikhism is totally against idol worship. This is straight from the Gurus, not from some Bhai,Sant or Baba. Those who advocate idol worship within Sikhism stating what some Bhai,Baba or Sant said I humbly believe have strayed from Gurus command and should not call themselves Sikhs anymore. What I can't understand is how some can quote some Baba,Bhai or Sant put choose to ignore the very crux of Gurus teachings. There were some who were in fact pretty emotional when I criticised this line of thinking. Well, below is what Guru Ji the only and final authority in Sikhism stated. Are you all questioning Guru Ji's teachings?

This is also proof that Shashtras and Vedas were looked down upon which is why they were never included in the SGGS.

Bro if out of those quote you believe that all of us are asserting the notion that it is ok for 'sikhs' to pray to idols, then you completly missed my points. Because i gave an example of Bhagat Dhanna's experience does not mean i am saying go pray to a stone. You have missed the point. If you are innocent as Bhagat Dhanna ji, then surely he will find you in whatever image you perceive him as. Innocence of a Child is what Bhagat Dhanna had in him. You are stuck on the Stone part, if he had prayed to a flower, he would've appeared before him, it was not the object you pray to, it is how you pray. In what state is your mind in when you pray. The object simply is an Aid...i can't seem to say it enough. Im trying to explain to you the purpose of an Idol worshipping, but you seem to take it as im trying to preach that it is ok. I never said it is ok for Sikhs to pray to Idols. Sikhs have been given a different path. There are infinite methods to your inner tranquility.

Waheguru.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats great news samosasingh ji,

I hope you do seeva of guroo maharaj with pure sharda and prem... Even though you have to scarifice all your life doing this...do it because result shall be fruitful. After all guroo maharaj neh sikhi bakshai aa hanna?

Akaaaaaaaaaaal hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii akaaaaaaaaaaaaal

anand hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii anand :D :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...