Guru

[Infernal Monk]

This is request for Jamuka and Inferal Monk to have read at this topic before even jumping to conculstion that guroo's were mere prophets. Quite franky, its quite offended to see when people think they are at the higher level to judge guroo maharaj spirtuality. And its indeed shame, that being born at the sikh household and being attracted to sikhi...people still think Guroo nanak sahib nirankar in 10 human forms and 11th shabad guroo form are just mere human.

This topic is locked now.

We want to make sure that our members read this thread tittle "Guroo and Vaheguroo(God)" :

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2680.

Next time think and study scriptures before commenting on guroo maharaj's

I'm very sorry if I have offended you in anyway, although I do not see how. All that I said in my post was that the Guru's were not god (i.e. we do not worship the guru). I do not understand how you consider that heresy. All I believe in is the one god, and that is it. I highly respect the Gurus as enlightened individuals; ones that as in the link you provided had known truth. That to me does not make them god.

Also I believe it is you who is jumping to conclusions and not I. The Gurus were human, Sikhism is a practical religion, they were though as mentioned earlier enlightened. I do not understand when you say they were not human. What were they then? A different species? A divine being?

Also I never once insinuated that I could ever judge the Guru's spirituality much less yours, but apparently you have taken it upon your self to judge mine.

I will however say that I do not dogmatically adhere to beliefs if a person can calmly explain to me the errors/flaws in my views. I also admit that I do not know as much about Sikhism as most of the people on this forum, but that was exactly my reason for joining this site (and I consider myself to be a good Sikh). Yet you seem to just judge people and lock threads when they go against what you believe. Honestly it is quite disappointing to see how hypocritical and judgmental you can be when your goal is to spread awareness of Sikhism.

P.S. the point of a forum is to discuss issues to gain a higher understanding of topics. From my single statement that the gurus were not god, you simply lock the topic.

This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, nor is this meant to judge you; merely to state that I do not understand on what grounds your objection is based.

[Mr §ingh]

GUru was ONE with God - FRom what I've conprehendd.

Noe

Please look up the definion of - (you shouldn't need to, as its BASIC Panjabi)

'Bani Guru, GUru Hai Bani'

&

'WAho Waho Bani Nirankar Hai'

take care

bhull chukk maaf

GUrFAteh

[Guest]

Infernal Monk, when in doubt, refer to Gurbani, something I have learnt after much confusion and problems created by not adhering to this rule. What does Gurbani say?

Literally Guru Nanak's body was a platform from which God Himself spoke and delivered His message- Gurbani (Divine Word). God manifested Himself through Guru Nanak:

'Gur meh aap samoai sabad vartaya.' (Var Malar ki Mohalla 1, p-1279)

'In the true Guru (Nanak) He installed His Own Spirit Through him, God speaketh Himself.' (Translation of the above)

In another place in Gurbani it is said:

'Gur meh aap rakhaya kartare.' (Maru Mohalla 1(15), p-1024)

'In the body of Guru (Nanak) God revealeth Himself.' (Translation of the above)

God is in the Guru and Guru is in God. Though God is everywhere and in everybody but His traits are illuminated through the Guru. The Jot (Divine Light) that enshrined Guru Nanak's body and the Primal Jot of God are, therefore, one and the same:

'Gur Nanak Nanak har soai.' (Gaund Mohalla 5, p-865)

'O Nanak, Jot of Nanak and God are one.' (Translation of the above)

[Morpheous]

Afternoon

Infernal Monk

I still struggle to see why your post has been locked,

All Infernal Monk has stated that the Guru's were human.

We all agree with that don't we ?

Infernal Monk - i think if you watch Matrix 1, at the end when Neo's comes back to life - he see's everything for what it is - i e 0's and 1's manifesting different forms

Similary Guru Ji says 'Ik hai fir anek hai' - Jaap Sahib

There is unity in diversity and diversity unity

We understand this concept - but we have not REALIZED it, you see the difference ?

The Gurus had realised it - so they had blended back into the ocean of nirankar - hence they REALISED that everything they did was under the 'hukum' of 'har' the existance.

The cloud of ego disppeared - they became 1

For example X to the power of 0 = 1

The Power - which represents ego became 0, hence they became one with the existance - (sort of similar to Neo in Matrix 1)

So we can say that the Guru were God like on the basis that

'Gur meh aap rakhaya kartare.' (Maru Mohalla 1(15), p-1024)

The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru - bringing us from spiritual darkness to light (if applied in correct manner) - Many accept that it is written by Humans who had X to the Power of 0 = 1

They were God like in the most purest way Humanly possible - right? They had become one with the ocean - they were ever growing

To say they were God is right and wrong at the same time, it depends on how you look at it

On a personal note i dont bother trying to understand Har(too big for my mind), it, i dont want to put the whole ocean into a cup its impossible.

But if i was to take a pure cupful out of the ocean, then analyse its properties - they will reflect the properties of the ocean - they wont be the whole ocean itself in that cup but the properties will be present there?

Can you see how the Guru's and Har are related?

Okie.... now, we now have to get our cup of water back into the ocean - the sad thing about the situation is that we dont REALISE that we are part of the ocean ALREADY, a cloud of EGO prevents us from doing so( one could compare this to Matrix 1, the people are part of the matrix which ifundementally constitutes of 0's and 1's, but just dont simply realise it!)

Guru Ji gives us formulas to REALISE this by uncovering to us 1000's of meditations in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Don't you feel bless already? The properties of the ocean are available to you in form of Guru Granth Sahib ji, in fact it even offers us formulas to REALISE har!

A paradox then shoots to mind, we are so rich( in the context of the scriptures(guru) available to us) but at the same time so poor.

Why are we so poor? I'll be blunt, we are TOO THICK to realise what sitting there just under our nose. We take it for granted.

The people that made this forum obviously felt that there was a need for the sikhs to know about this. I thank them greatly for creating such a forum.

I hope we as a young Sangat keep the primary goal in mind of X to the Power of 0 = 1.

Gurfateh

Harpreet

[Morpheous]

Sorry i forgot;

Sources: Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1024, The Matrix, Self- Relisation Volume 1 by MS Cheema, , The True Name Vol 1 by Osho Rajneesh

[Infernal Monk]

Thank you all for your responses. Also to clarify what my post said, I meant that the Gurus had been enlightened, that they had known truth (that they, as you put it, had merged with the ocean). But what I was saying is that we are not to regard them as god, isn't that what they themselves said? I still don't understand how they are not human? They have been spritiually enlightened, but they were still human right? Thanks for repyling to these questions too.

[Jamuka]

This is request for Jamuka and Inferal Monk to have read at this topic before even jumping to conculstion that guroo's were mere prophets. Quite franky, its quite offended to see when people think they are at the higher level to judge guroo maharaj spirtuality. And its indeed shame, that being born at the sikh household and being attracted to sikhi...people still think Guroo nanak sahib nirankar in 10 human forms and 11th shabad guroo form are just mere human.

Firstly nobody JUDGED the Gurus. Do you know what the meaning of judging means? If I call you a liar, I have then JUDGED you. Do you understand? BTW where have we advocated we are at a higher level of spirituality to the Gurus? We were merely discussing making a movie about the Gurus and you went off on a tangent accusing us of judging the Gurus. Wheather the Gurus were Gurus/Prophets or Gods as many would like to believe, they were in human form. What is wrong then in discussing about making a movie about the Gurus? What is the wrong that has been committed here?

Also I never once insinuated that I could ever judge the Guru's spirituality much less yours, but apparently you have taken it upon your self to judge mine.

I'm shocked at how he made that accusation and locked that thread. This reflects very poorly on a moderator of a forum which purports to have discussions about Sikhism.

Honestly it is quite disappointing to see how hypocritical and judgmental you can be when your goal is to spread awareness of Sikhism

Well said.

P.S. the point of a forum is to discuss issues to gain a higher understanding of topics. From my single statement that the gurus were not god, you simply lock the topic.

Errr...thats what I thought too. But I guess we have to be 'careful' what we are discussing about lest we be accused of judging.

GUru was ONE with God - FRom what I've conprehendd.

Noe

Please look up the definion of - (you shouldn't need to, as its BASIC Panjabi)

Dear Mr.Singh and the rest of you, the point infernal Monk what trying to convey was that this is a discussion forum. How are discussions and learning to take place when we have moderators who are emotional and act childish by simply locking threads when the discussions takes place on topics which are 'sensitive' to him/her?

[Mr §ingh]

Dear Mr.Singh and the rest of you, the point infernal Monk what trying to convey was that this is a discussion forum. How are discussions and learning to take place when we have moderators who are emotional and act childish by simply locking threads when the discussions takes place on topics which are 'sensitive' to him/her?

Jamuka, Please read the rules. In a thread on the subject may be discussed, if theres something someone wonders upon then Open a new thread instead of Changing the original subject.

As for locking a specific thread, It might be due to someone changing subject

take care

Bhull chukk maaf

GurFAteh

[Infernal Monk]

Jamuka, Please read the rules. In a thread on the subject may be discussed, if theres something someone wonders upon then Open a new thread instead of Changing the original subject.

As for locking a specific thread, It might be due to someone changing subject

take care

Bhull chukk maaf

GurFAteh

Mr. Singh, if you look back at the post then you will see that the topic was not changed until Neo's post, after which he locked it. So I don't understand how your above post is relevant.

[Jamuka]

Mr. Singh, if you look back at the post then you will see that the topic was not changed until Neo's post, after which he locked it. So I don't understand how your above post is relevant.

I am reminded of this one story of the Sikh Gurus. Baba Chand asked Guru Amar Das (or Ram Das?) as to why does he spots a long beard? The Guru replied "so that I may be able to dust your feet whenever I meet you'? This is the level of humility the Gurus possesed. Unfortunately many of todays Sikhs are arrogant and believe they are in the position to judge how others are to address the Gurus and what may or may not be said about them. You may lock a silly thread in a forum but how will you stop the world from commenting or critisizing? How is this behaviour different from those Muslims in Muslim forums? Just put forth a few 'sensitive' questions about Muhammad and you are immideatly banned.

Please allow me to share a similar experience.During the last Vasakhi I was at a local temple and a few of the sewadars were giving out pocket calenders with Guru Gobind Singh picture on one side. When I was given one I proceeded to put it in my wallet. I was reprimanded by one of my self acclaimed 'amartari' friend as he claims it is rude/disrespectful to do so (put the calender in my wallet). This cartoon character actually expects me to put the picture up on some wall and maybe put flowers at the base of the picture. Can you believe that? Wow, we've left Hinduism but we still carry some of our Hindu baggage with us. Are we creating our own set of idols? And this is the funny part, my friend who reprimanded me was drunk at the time!! Apparently he was delusioned to believe that he was able to come to a Sikh temple drunk but I am not allowed to keep a pocket calender in my wallet. Yeah this is what happening these days, we are creating a bunch of judgemental freaks amongst us!