A letter & request to you my friend (Please read)

[Noor]

You guys are just proving what he's said right when you start telling him not to turn to Islam. Shouldnt you all be more concerned about the main reason of why he's turning away from Sikhi.

Punjabi N - I know exactly how you feel. If one wants to convert to Christianity or Islam, there is the preist or Imam to guide you, there are other ppl who practice the faith that will support you.. unfortunately this isnt so in Sikhism.

Like he said... sure he can read Guru Granth Sahib ji.. but still one needs someone knowledgeable to explain things about the religion to them.

PN I know how you feel because I feel like this most of the time too. My family is Sikh, but most of them arent really into it..they go to the gurdwara and pray.. but thats all. I wanted something more, to take the next steps... but theres no one here to guide me either.

[Guest]

Punjabi Nationist - If u're reading this, always keep Allah Naam in your heart.

But i really feel Sikhi Dhrama is a true gift. And as Mission Impossible says Sikhism is 100% compatiable with Science. But its up to you what you feel confortable with.

[Jamuka]

You guys are just proving what he's said right when you start telling him not to turn to Islam. Shouldnt you all be more concerned about the main reason of why he's turning away from Sikhi.

It is stupid, ignorant, liberalist attitude like yours that is providing enough fodder for this ugly violent cult to grow. I am not against PN leaving Sikhism. He may joing Reverand Moonsungs or be a Osho follower for all I care, but I will definitely advice him against joining this cult. This cult is the number one cause of problems for all mankind and if left unchecked, may bring the complete destruction to our civilizations as we know it today.

I recommend you to check out www.faithfreedom.org. Believe me when I say this, this is not a religion but a violent,ugly,cult. I say this based on personal experience and what is written in the Hadiths and Quran.

Raja Ranjit Singh once quoted "The pen is mightier then the sword but what is it without it?" Now think about it, is he advocating violence or was he being practical? Think about it.

[Noor]

It is stupid, ignorant, liberalist attitude like yours that is providing enough fodder for this ugly violent cult to grow. I am not against PN leaving Sikhism. He may joing Reverand Moonsungs or be a Osho follower for all I care, but I will definitely advice him against joining this cult. This cult is the number one cause of problems for all mankind and if left unchecked, may bring the complete destruction to our civilizations as we know it today.

I recommend you to check out www.faithfreedom.org. Believe me when I say this, this is not a religion but a violent,ugly,cult. I say this based on personal experience and what is written in the Hadiths and Quran.

Raja Ranjit Singh once quoted "The pen is mightier then the sword but what is it without it?" Now think about it, is he advocating violence or was he being practical? Think about it.

What the hell are you on? I wont lower myself and make personal attacks on you. But except for the quote from Raja Ranjit Singh..the rest of what you wrote is total bs.

You seemed to have missed the point of my post but anywayz..who is ignorant and stupid.. only time or then Waheguru can tell.

peace.

[BabbarSher]

Akal Sahai PN.

Excellent Post Harpreet.

Can anyone please give me Punjabi Nationalist's email, as I would like to address each and very issue that he has mentioned herein in his post ?

I am not saying he should not join other religions, but I am highly critical of the manner in which and the reasons for which he is moving to other religions.

I am not highly appreciative of Islam, and funnily the more I interact with muslims, the more my faith in sikhi gets strengthened.

We must all remember that our source always has to be Guru Granth Sahib. Just because our leaders atre corrupt, or their sons and daughters are aibi and aishi, or for that matter we cannot get the goris, or that the goris look at us with a contempt in their eyes.......these really are not reasons for giving up sikhi.

I can only term them as excuses.

PN: If you want to learn about sikhi, I gaurantee you a 100% that I will support you and help you learn, whatever you may want to. I will help you clear any doubts that you may have.

You are free to convert to whatever religion you may want to, however, making decision before learning about anything doesnt not seem to reflect rightly.

Not only will I help you support anything on sikhi and your doubts, but anythying which you my face in your personal life...having even a remote resemblance to sikhi.

I have made this post so that it stands as a public committment.

Lastly I belong to the Punjab ;-) so u r not the only punjabi onboard, however we are sikhs first and punjabis later.

[Jamuka]

What the hell are you on? I wont lower myself and make personal attacks on you. But except for the quote from Raja Ranjit Singh..the rest of what you wrote is total bs.

I'm sorry Noor but that was not meant to be a personal attack. The attakc was not to you personally but to what you said and please allow me to explain. Lets analyze what you said earlier and why you said it.

You guys are just proving what he's said right when you start telling him not to turn to Islam. Shouldnt you all be more concerned about the main reason of why he's turning away from Sikhi.

First of all PN cannot blame the behaviour of other Sikhs on his failure to live the life of a Khalsa. Sikhism has nothing to do with the behaviour of Sikhs which is why there is the SGGS. It is not fair for PN to blame his shortcomings on thebehaviour of sikhs at large.

Secondly, Islam is not a religion. It is a vile ugly cult that deserves no respect and is no way comparable to any religion on this planet.

You should have realised this but instead you decided to close your eyes to this ugly cult and shifted the blame to the Sikhs here and I suspect you did it to be 'politically correct'. Read Sikh history and you will realise Sikhs have suffered tremendously because of this cult and now Sikhs today are supposed to feel guilty just because one Sikh leaves it to join Islam?

In fact I would say the Sikhs here have behaved correctly. Would you not try to persuade someone from embracing a cult? FYI, if a Muslim were to denounce/leave Islam in a Muslim country, he or she would be killed. The punishment for apostasy for Muslims residing in Muslim countries is death.

Punjabi N - I know exactly how you feel. If one wants to convert to Christianity or Islam, there is the preist or Imam to guide you, there are other ppl who practice the faith that will support you.. unfortunately this isnt so in Sikhism.

Many cults like the moonies use similar methodologies in order to lure people to embrace it. Maybe I will start a new thread and will expose what is written in the Quran.

Like he said... sure he can read Guru Granth Sahib ji.. but still one needs someone knowledgeable to explain things about the religion to them.

To be honest with you, I feel exactly the same way as PN but I will not blame Sikhs for this. It maybe a shortcoming in Sikh organizations but this is where you must realise, Sikhism does not believe in actively seeking converts like Islam and Christianity. Anyway, in no way anybody should be feeling guilty.

You seemed to have missed the point of my post but anywayz..who is ignorant and stupid.. only time or then Waheguru can tell.

No I have not, you were merely echoing what liberals around the world would say in such a situation and you are right, Waheguru can tell. If I am not mistaken there is a verse in the SGGS that denounces Islam so you see, advising others not to join this cult is not against being a Sikhi.

I am sick and tired of Sikhs always admonishing each other, always making themselves feel bad or guilty and this is despite such terrible history. I say enough is enough! Sikhs should feel proud of who they are and never succumb to feeling guilty or bad especially when they have been the butt of cruel and harsh treatment by others. If a member is leaving to join another religion, then I bid him good luck. At least he is given well wishes instead of being killed.

[tSingh]

I ask you Jamuka one simple question...

Did Guru ji ever tell Bhai Mardana or Pir Budh Shah that they are following a 'vile, ugly cult'?

please answer the question first.

Therefore you are either more enlightened than the Guru, or you are wrong. Which one?

[Jamuka]

I ask you Jamuka one simple question...

Did Guru ji ever tell Bhai Mardana or Pir Budh Shah that they are following a 'vile, ugly cult'?

please answer the question first.

Therefore you are either more enlightened than the Guru, or you are wrong. Which one?

Hmmmmm, a simple question deserves a simple answer but before I answer, here is a few from myself.

Was Guru Nanak a Hindu? Was Kabir, Mardana and Sheikh Farid Muslims? Was Balo a Hindu?

Please allow me to quote a few verses from the Quran.

89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

(Quran Surah 4)

55 Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.

(Quran Surah 8)

73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

(Quran Surah 9)

So why didn't Mardana kill the 'disbeliever' Guru Nanak? What was Mardana doing hanging out with a 'disbeliever' chanting the name of Waheguru? Isn't this against the very basic tenets of Islam?

The answer is quite obvious, Mardana was no more a Muslim then Guru Nanak was a Hindu. Muslim rule in Punjab at the time must have been a tad bit laxed. Had they been in Saudi Arabia, Guru Nanak along with Mardana would have beein killed. FYI, Mardana and Kabir were both Sufi Muslims. The Sufi sect for obvious reasons, is officially not recognised by the majority Sunnis although they might have been laxed with them in the past.

And now, I have a very simple question for you. Please refer to the verse below.

'Mitti Musalman ki peirei paee kumiar; Ghar bhandei itan kia, jaldi karei pukar.'

(Asa Mohalla 1, p-466)

'The ashes of the Mohammadan fall into the potter's clod; Vessels and bricks are fashioned from them; they cry out as they burn.' (Translation of the above)

Oh, BTW this verse is from Guru Nanak which is written in the SGGS. Can you please explain to me what it means? I patiently await your reply.

[BabbarSher]

Jamuka you have made a very good post, however I cannot agree on " . FYI, Mardana and Kabir were both Sufi Muslims. The Sufi sect for obvious reasons, is officially not recognised by the majority Sunnis although they might have been laxed with them in the past. "

Both of them were sikhs - Mardana Ji was sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (Bhai Mani Singh Ji's Janam Saakhi) and Kabir Ji was a saint - a sikh of Waheguru

Kabir Ji was in no way a muslim -sufi or otherwise.

[girlUK]

'Mitti Musalman Ki peirei paee kumiar; Ghar bhandei itan, jaldi karei pukar.'

(Asa Mohalla 1, p-466)

The above verse, I have heard or read a definition of a LONG time ago.

From what I remember, it basically explains that although Muslims believe that their bodies will be resurrected on Judgement Day- this is not necessarily true as eventually they will be cremated like us (the soil of their decomposed bodies are used to make clay- and are burnt).

Sorry if it doesnt make sense, like I said I am not certain about this statement as i did read about this explanation a very very long time ago.

[tSingh]

A small correction to start with, according to the janamsakhis Bhai Mardana and Guru ji DID go to Saudi Arabia!

Sorry Jamuka, you didn't answer my question...Bhai Mardana was a Sikh, I absolutely argree. That doesn't mean he wasn't a Muslim. Even if you choose to argue that Bhai Mardana was not a Muslim (somehow I think his descendents would disagree with you on that one)...why did Guru Gobind Singh ji not tell Pir Budh Shah the same?

If you sincerely believe that Sufis are not Muslims, then you would have been laughed at in Punjab back in that time. Have a read about Ajmer and Mohinuddin Chisti. Find out why he is so famous. Find out if he propogated the Quran or not. Is there one Sufi who has rejected the Quran? A friend of mine, a straight forward Sunni muslim, in their daily prayers mention the four tariqat (sufi orders).

Other Muslims in Guru Gobind Singh ji's darbar at Sri Anandpur Sahib include Hussain Ali, Mir Chubeela, Mir Mushki, Sheikh, Aalam Shah among others.

Guru Hargobind ji built 'Guru Ke Meseet' in Sri Hargobindpur for who exactly? Was the Guru that cruel that he let people follow a 'vile, ugly cult' yet build them a masjid?

So, I'll answer the question for you Jamuka since you decided to side step it

...no Guru Gobind Singh ji nor any other Guru believed their Muslim devotees belonged to 'a vile, ugly cult'. If they had there would not have been any Muslim associates and devotees! Pir Budh Shah would not have sacrified his two sons in the battle of Bhangni if the Guru had said these things, nor would 700 fellow muslims fought alongside the Guru on Pir Budh Shah's request - get your facts right my friend (Pir Budh Shah was later tirtured by Usman Khan for helping the Guru, something Banda Bahadur avenged later by killing Usman)...nor would he have kept the Guru's relics given to him by the Guru himself.

I recognise you have your own opinion on Islam, that is your own opinion and nothing more. It is, however, not Gurmat. Secondly, as I have stated before on this forum, do remember that you bow your head down to our shabad guru in the Gurdwara which includes the writings of such followers and historical propogaters of this 'vile, ugly cult'. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

The quote you refer to is the very same that Ram Rai changed in the delhi darbar. How you translate that into 'reject the vile, ugly cult' I don't know! Try reading panna 140, the last pauri by Guru Nanak Dev ji. Surely if you were correct that would not read 'Musalmaan' and instead 'Sikh'?

[Jamuka]

A small correction to start with, according to the janamsakhis Bhai Mardana and Guru ji DID go to Saudi Arabia!

Yes they did but ask yourself, why didn't Guru Nanak identify himself as a Hindu? Why didn't they go about Saudi Arabia, sitting under some date tree and singing hyms about Waheguru? Did they?

Sorry Jamuka, you didn't answer my question...Bhai Mardana was a Sikh, I absolutely argree. That doesn't mean he wasn't a Muslim.

This shows your lack of understanding of Islam. Islam does not provide for it's members to sing hyms about some universal God with a disbeliever. This is specifically stated in the Quran. I don't have time now but I will be starting a new thread on the Quran. Get your facts right about Islam before making dubious claims about who is a Muslim and who is not. Mardana, by the strict standards was NO Muslim. In fact, he should have been considered an apostate and the punishment of apostasy in Islam is death.

Even if you choose to argue that Bhai Mardana was not a Muslim (somehow I think his descendents would disagree with you on that one)...why did Guru Gobind Singh ji not tell Pir Budh Shah the same?

I really don't care what Mardana's descendans say nor do I give damn to Guru Nanaks descendans. Facts are not determined the opinions of the descendans of Mardana.

If you sincerely believe that Sufis are not Muslims, then you would have been laughed at in Punjab back in that time.

Yes, I do realise Punjab was the center of Sufiism but neverthless, Sunnis officially do NOT recognize Shiites, Suffis, Ahmadiyas, Asmalis...This is why the Asmalis reside in India and why the Ahmadiyas are being persecuted by the Sunnis in Pakistan. I have Asmali friends who hide the location of their Mosques from the Sunnis and the usually don't even fast during Ramadhan. They believe in Aga Khan.

Have a read about Ajmer and Mohinuddin Chisti. Find out why he is so famous. Find out if he propogated the Quran or not. Is there one Sufi who has rejected the Quran?

Look buddy, did I say Suffis are not Muslims? I said they are sects. Do you understand what that word means? If a Muslim rejects the Quran, he/she is no more a Muslim, no arguments.

A friend of mine, a straight forward Sunni muslim, in their daily prayers mention the four tariqat (sufi orders).

Your friends personal belief does not constitute fact. I have Muslim friends who eat pork, so what of it?

Other Muslims in Guru Gobind Singh ji's darbar at Sri Anandpur Sahib include Hussain Ali, Mir Chubeela, Mir Mushki, Sheikh, Aalam Shah among others.

You are confusing the meaning of the word Islam with Muslim. I claimed Islam is a vile, ugly cult but there are good Muslims out there. But they are good because they are not strict Muslims. Strict Muslims or those who live by the strict code of the Quran and they are the likes of Osama Bin Laden. Please allow me to quote Ali Sina"A good Muslim is Osama and a good Christian is Mother Theresa"....Ali Sina ( a former Muslim).

Guru Hargobind ji built 'Guru Ke Meseet' in Sri Hargobindpur for who exactly? Was the Guru that cruel that he let people follow a 'vile, ugly cult' yet build them a masjid?

Ask yourself, if our Gurus did not look down at Islam and Hinduism, why start something new? Why not reform these two religions? Yes, Allah is mentioned in the SGGS. Sikhism is about truth. There is no truth in being cruel to people who belong to a cult even though the cult may be ugly. But that does not whitewash this cult.

So, I'll answer the question for you Jamuka since you decided to side step it

Sorry Jtsingh, I hadn't realised I didn't answer the question. Ok, your original question...

Did Guru ji ever tell Bhai Mardana or Pir Budh Shah that they are following a

'vile, ugly cult'?

Firstly, there are no exact accounts of the conversations that took place between Guru Nanak and Mardana. The Janamsakhis have been proven to be wrong on many of it's accounts. If Mardana did not find any fault in Islam, why join Sikhism?

...no Guru Gobind Singh ji nor any other Guru believed their Muslim devotees belonged to 'a vile, ugly cult'.

Then why start something new? Why the rejection of Hinduism and Islam?

Remember the famous quote "Na me Hindu ta me Mussalman"...why?

If they had there would not have been any Muslim associates and devotees! Pir Budh Shah would not have sacrified his two sons in the battle of Bhangni if the Guru had said these things, nor would 700 fellow muslims fought alongside the Guru on Pir Budh Shah's request - get your facts right my friend (Pir Budh Shah was later tirtured by Usman Khan for helping the Guru, something Banda Bahadur avenged later by killing Usman)...nor would he have kept the Guru's relics given to him by the Guru himself.

Get you facts right buddy. I claimed that Islam is a vile, ugly cult. I did not claim all Muslims are bad. There are good apples even in a barrell of rotten apples. These Afghans and Moghuls were converts, they were not following the religion/cult to the tee. They are specific passages in the Quran that denounces the type of acts committed by the likes of Pir Budh Shah. You know nothing about Islam and that is quite apparent. Go find out how Painde Khan who was raised by Guru Hargobind and how he back stabbed the Sikhs. Go find out how Guru Tegh Bahadhur admonished Painde Khan by claiming Painde Khans backstabbing was because of Islam.

I recognise you have your own opinion on Islam, that is your own opinion and nothing more.

Jtsingh, these are not opinions but facts. What is written in the Quran is not opinion but pure facts. I am not an expert in Islam but you abviously know jack. I will give you a chance to cross swords with me on this one as stated earlier, I will be starting a new thread on this subject. Be prepared to have your arguments destroyed as truth is the mightiest sword that God ever made.

It is, however, not Gurmat. Secondly, as I have stated before on this forum, do remember that you bow your head down to our shabad guru in the Gurdwara which includes the writings of such followers and historical propogaters of this 'vile, ugly cult'. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

Sikhism is not Islam dude nor is it a sect so how does this make me a hypocrite? You fail to realise, I am critisizing Islam and not Muslims. Kabir, Mardana and Sheikh Farid were no Muslims. They may have been born Muslims, but they are not Muslims, not by the standards of the Quran anyway. I fail to see how I am a hypocrite. If the Gurus recognized them to be bonafide Muslims, then why didn't Guru Nanak request Sikhs to pray to Allah? Why Jtsingh, can you tell? Why do we use their 'bhagats' but don't subscribe to the faith they were born into? Why does Sikhism reject Islam? If Sikhism is a sect of Islam, then you have a point in calling me a hypocrite.

The quote you refer to is the very same that Ram Rai changed in the delhi darbar.

Rubbish! You cannot 'change' the meaning of a quote and hello, yuu hooo, dind' t Guru Hargobind admonish Ram Rae for not giving out the real meaning to the Muslims? Now you're beggining to sound like Ram Rae.

How you translate that into 'reject the vile, ugly cult' I don't know! Try reading panna 140, the last pauri by Guru Nanak Dev ji. Surely if you were correct that would not read 'Musalmaan' and instead 'Sikh'?

The Gurus could not be straightforward about the cult simply because they were outnumbered. Sikhism would have been literally wiped out if it went against Islam directly so instead, they just went against bad Muslims. Besides, what better way to better a man by spreading love and truth instead of ridiculing his beliefs? This is by far a better way to win an enemy over. When you're the minority, the only way to get your enemy who is numerically stronger to leave or question their faith is by creating a diversion, spreading love and truth which was Sikhism. Truth will always appeal to most men as we are born with a conciense.

However today the tables have changed. The followers of this cult are no more the dominant force in this world and a more direct approach would be better.

MODERATOR NOTE:- We appreciate the need for individuals to raise their opinions and encourage good debate, however ask again, please can we keep things clean. Thanking you all.

[tSingh]

Where to begin. There is so much warped stereotyped fascism in your thinking that I don't know where to start. Some simple points to bare in mind; if Islam is to be entirely based on those 3 Qur'anic quotes you have found, then the vast majority of Muslims are not Muslim and have not been throughout history, as they are not doing what the Qur'an commands them to do. Mate, your thinking is more wahabi than the wahabis, more fundamentalist than the fundamentalists!!!!!! By your own logic, Bin Laden is the ideal Muslim...you are a funny, funny man!

A few corrections from your own misunderstandings of my post to finish with;

- Please do not assume Sunni views on Ahmadiyas and Ismaili are the same for Sufis. This is incorrect.

- My friend who mentions the tariqats in the Mosque does so with EVERYONE ELSE! This isn't his personal practice.

- I explained that the line from bani was distorted by Ram Rai, and you claim this is 'rubbish!' What did you mean by that? Did he not change the line in the delhi darbar by adding a different word?

- You state Baba Farid is not a Muslim! man you are funny. Try putting ganj shakar into a search engine, see what comes up and actually READ it.

- How there can be 'good muslims' who follow a 'vile, ugly cult' is surely a contradiction in terms if this is based on 'fact' as you state and not merely your own opinion.

[Guest]

This discussion is closed now. Please, start new thread, if you want to discuss points not related to this discussion.