Guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Lalleshvari do you want an objective source?? Here..Buy this book Struggle for Faith and Freedom by cynthia mahmood : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...758229?v=glance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 hehehehehehhehe N3O nice to see that you came up with that book. You seem to forget though that this book was actually received with some criticsm by the academic community!CK Mahmood's book is a good attempt to understand Sikh militancy yet at the same time she falls all too easily into the "Che Guevara" syndrom that a lot of left-winged Western intellectuals go through. There is no doubt that her empathy for Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranvale goes well beyong scholarship. She does fit him into the frame of the mysterious, male and courageous freedom fighter (with an incredible charisma that no one can deny! even I must admit that he is a fascinating character!) a la Che Guevara or the Lion of the Panshir! Now all I am saying is that things are much more complex then that! I personaly think that Sant Jarnail Singh had a good knowledge of santhia even though I have myself seen people from the same sampradaya go beyond. There is no doubt about the fact that he kept his rahit etc.... For a long time I was myself fascinated by the character in the same way I am fascinated by Ayatollah Khomeini. Yet my reason tells me to be cautious. There are serious questions and issues involved here and one has to take that whole "rob" element out and think rationally! I would certainly not put him at the same level as Bin Laden (who is a butcher and nothing else) but nor would I put him at the same level as Khomeini (a mystical scholar supported by a huge part of the Iranian population). I just think that Sant jarnail SIngh did some fatal tactical, military and political mistakes, I think he was just too young, and not aware of the fact that he was being used by a diverse number of people. Regarding the Baljit Kaur and other incidents (which is not just reported by KPS Gill) this is for me very disturbing! I am entitled to ask myself questions as to if this person is an appropriate role model for our youth. That is why I dislike both sides: Indian government and militants because both have damaged SIkhi and taken Sikhi as a hostage! I know that Sant Jarnail SIngh is viewed by many as a role model but not sharing the same enthusiasm does not make me a nindak or a bad Sikh. And this has nothing to do with Bhindranvalian up-sampradaya: I love the institution because of its Nirmala roots, I really respect Baba Mohan SIngh Bhindranvale and I think he is a good role model for SIkhs! I do have a minute problem with Chawk Mehta because of its ambiguous relationship with SGPC and its constructed lineage. At the the end of the day we are all SIkhs and I have no problem sitting with Taksal around a cup of warm milk, something I certainly would not do with other people who claim to be Gursikhs and yet rejected Ragmala! Asking questions and being critical in an honest spirit is not nindia. My conscience tells me to be cautious and I cannot go against my conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Your conscience ... Are you talking about 'Rab di Jot' or simply your EGO ? and how can you claim to tell the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Is it your ego that asks the question or your conscience? Can you make the difference? ego stops where conscience begins, that's how I see it. The Oxford dictionary defines conscience as: a moral sense of right and wrong, especially as felt by a person and affecting behavior (my conscience won't allow me to do that) an inner feeling as to the goodness or otherwise of one's behavior (my conscience is clear; has a guilty conscience) You cannot fight against your conscience otherwise you can't look at yourslef in the mirror! And as horrible as it may sound may conscience forbids me to consider Sant jarnail Singh as a role model. And God knows I have tried. I have listened to the tapes, read the books, even had the posters... my conscience kept on repeating: no! my ego was fascinated by some aspects of the person but my conscience refused! With Maharaj's kirpa I have been blessed with meeting Sants who inspire me everyday and help this wretched person that I am to taste a bit of the nectar of Sikhi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
challenge_everything Posted April 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Ironlion Bhaji when did I do nindiaa of any Shaheed singh? God bless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Manochal Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 Well said Sukhdev Singh Ji, thanks for clearing up those points about the background of Shaheed Avtar Singh Bhrama. I would also like to add that i agree, the people who you term 'taksali youth' have plenty of other things to worry about such as seva and parchar, lol not sit around blaming nihangs fot the problems of the world!! The fact that in this particular discussion/topic they are to blame in the sense that they did nothing for the people is different. That blame is fair and justified. There are many other problems that we face such as female infanticide, lack of faith given to gurbani, apostacy in the community, corruption by so called leaders etc etc, do the nihangs get blamed for these things? NO. So please stop making sweeping judgements and making mountains out of molehills! Its ridiculous! The reason i put the term taksali youth in inverted commas was because i dont believe that term applies to the people you refer too. I have read on forums and spoken to singh who have told me that to become known as a taksali singh, you need a certain level of training in gurbani, santia, kata etc, so you must either be fully trained or be dedicated towards that path. Most of the people you refer to would never even in their dreams consider themselves worthy of that title. SO basically think of a new group name and a new motto, because at the moment both are incorect. I repeat, i do not KNOW of anything that santa singh has done for the benifit of the panth. I repeat i say that in all honesty, i really truely dont, if you wish to tell me then please do so. Until you or somebody else decides to i will never know. You say that they look after gurdware that were never desecrated? What does that imply... either that the armies were to afraid of them (lol) or that they didnt involve themselves in the struggle and kept out of it and thus saved themselves, possibly through hatcthing some sort of agreement which involved a large 'donation' been given to them. Ok yes in history the dal has done good work, but im referring to the current situation. Tell me what has santa singh and co done for the benifit of the common sikh. Was Guru Hargbind Sahib Ji under attack himself or was it the akal takhat? Did the enemy set out to kill the sikhs and the guru, or to destroy the akal takhat and harimandir sahib? Yes i can very easily say that if Sant Ji had not been there, eventually the army would have attacked. Simple. Sant Ji was there for a while, so using your theory that he was some sort of catalyst why didnt they attack earlier? Why pick that particular date? Knowing that darbar sahib would be full of pilgrims? Sant Ji knew the army was determined to attack the AKAL TAKHAT not him. I repeat they could have killed sant ji whenever they wanted!! I repeat sniper rifle would have easily done the job. The fight was not with him but with sikhi and they wanted to hurt us as badly as they could, they wanted to opress the sikh spirit that had started to rise and shine! Im afraid i dont have a list to hand but will try to find it for you. In regards to Beadbi of Guru Granth Sahib Ji there countless cases of such incidents, i will have to look up the name of the village but sant ji spoke of one incident where people broke into the gurdwara sahib took guru ji out, threw the rumalleh onto the floor and spread cow dung all over the ang of guru ji. Where were the guru's ladli fauj when that happned? In delhi countless gurdwara's were burnt there too, i saw a recent video which showed an image of a guru granth sahib ji da saroop half burnt lying on the floor of the streets of delhi. Where were Budda Dal that happened? Again i will repeat the indian authorities are clever, they will always try and excuse their actions with x y or z. The delhi maccacres were explained away as pain felt by the population over the deliverance of justice to gandhi. But today there is plenty of eveidence to show that these events were also preplanned and much organisation had already taken place, much of which would have been impossible to do the night which she was shot. This would suggest that the massacre of the sikhs would have taken place at some stage they were just waiting for the day. Im sure that if the singhs had not shot her, the authorities probably would have assasinated one of their own ministers or set fire to a mandir or something just so that could claim that the riots were spontaneous. SGPC took over Akal Takht it was unable to defend it. They took a repsonsibility that is too big for their shoulders. History proved them wrong! And of course they're going to blame Nihangs! What a farce!!! why are you still talking about the akal takhat, i thought the nihangs didnt care, since they are the real takhat!! And also hang on, correct me if im wrong, but i heard that before sgpc was formed the nihangs did seva of akal takhat... so how and why did they stop? Did they get thrown out by the SGPC?!?!?! NO!! Your statement also suggests that it was too big a task to defend the akal takhat, hence implying that these is a case for its defence. Would the nihangs have done better? Soryhang on, oh yeh they were hiding in the jungles in punjab waiting for the akal takhat to be destroyed at which stage they were gonna run out and beat them using guerilla tactics!!! secondly who out of the army of the budha dal is trained in warfare and knows how to adopt such guerilla tactics against a better trained and armed army or police force? (This is a topic for which i have as yet recieved no answer in the sampardama section). Im afraid if we are talking about military affairs, and the contribution of the budha dal, which as many claim is the official sikh army is negligible at best, then they wil take the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 Dekho Singho! Lets not fight over who did what?? My jatha got shahidiya and yours didnt... Its disguisting to fight over such issues... If it wasnt for budda dal, we wouldnt be here. Just because they dont show off that they did this/that doesnt lower their contribution in khalsa panth back in those puratan times: I found this wise quote from gursikhijeevan.com...Like to share with you guys: People always question what did budda dal did in 1984. But they forgot to look under their bed and ask what did they or their jatha did when akali nihang singhs were getting shaheediya before british. So STOP this bickering!!!!!!!! At the end of day. Every Sikh who got shahidiya got shahidiya for khalsa panth & Humanity lets not give any jatha credit for it :roll: :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 Got Todays Hakumnama. I though its suitable for this topic: He alone is called a warrior, who is attached to the Lord's Love in this age. Through the Perfect True Guru, he conquers his own soul, and then everything comes under his control. || 1 || Sing the Praises of the Lord and Master, with the love of your soul. Those who seek His Sanctuary, and meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are blended with the Lord in celestial peace. || 1 || Pause || The feet of the Lord's humble servant abide in my heart; with them, my body is made pure. O treasure of mercy, please bless Nanak with the dust of the feet of Your humble servants; this alone brings peace. || 2 || 4 || 35 || Saturday 18th Vaisaakh (Samvat 536 Nanakshahi) Lets end this topic here guys. what you guys say?? Because there will be always clashes of opnions. We should respect each other views and let it go. After all people slander saints and shaaheds or jathedar santa singh ji will continue to do so... because people from guroo's time didnt baksah(forgive) our guroo's from the net of slandering..then how could slander stop to sants, shaheeds, bhramgyanis...consider this vahiguroo hakum and move on.. because they cant help regardless what gurbani explain us of slandering...so they screw their naam kaamiya and karmic influences.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Ironlion Bhaji when did I do nindiaa of any Shaheed singh? Please read your previous postings and you will find the answer. I find it very interesting in all these posts you seem more obsessed on a false blaming game on Sikhs who have given their lives up for Sikhi, and where you have not blaming/attacking the Indian Government for their evil strike on the heart of Sikhi. Is it your ego that asks the question or your conscience? Can you make the difference? ego stops where conscience begins, that's how I see it. The Oxford dictionary defines conscience as: a moral sense of right and wrong, especially as felt by a person and affecting behavior (... has a guilty conscience) You cannot fight against your conscience otherwise you can't look at yourslef in the mirror! And as horrible as it may sound may conscience forbids me to consider Sant jarnail Singh as a role model. And God knows I have tried. I have listened to the tapes, read the books, even had the posters... my conscience kept on repeating: no! my ego was fascinated by some aspects of the person but my conscience refused! "ego stops where conscience begins" and you keep stating in your posts that 'your conscience' says this and that (quote"my conscience kept on repeating: no!") ... Are you claiming that you have conquered your EGO ? By being able to look in the mirror at yourself doesn't mean you do not 'fight' against your conscience. Of course we fight against our conscience or Atma (Rab di Jot) : everytime we forget Vaheguru, everybreath we take without remembering Vaheguru we are wasting. Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 1, 2004 Report Share Posted May 1, 2004 leave me with my issues and I'll leave you with yours. as far as I remember sikhawareness was no supposed to be one of those debating forums where everyone has the same opinion about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 ironlion ji You're making a fundamental mistake here. You need to understand the following terms; chit buddhi bibek buddhi anbhav aatma Paraatma haumai You seem to believe there is only haumai and aatma, and no place for discrimination. This is incorrect. Guru ji points out the danger of just bhao/bhav, there needs to be bibek buddhi with it. Jivanmukht would be very easy if what you're saying were true! all the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! leave me with my issues and I'll leave you with yours. as far as I remember sikhawareness was no supposed to be one of those debating forums where everyone has the same opinion about everything. That is fair enough I have no interest in your issues but when people who are confused or have issues with Sikhi/Life and then choose to promote that confusion, then I will take issue with it. Especially if they influencing people away from Sikhi. I find that a lot of youth come into Sikhi for a while and at some point become confused and then instead of thinking or saying they are wrong, they choose to promote it. It probably makes them feel better or something. You seem to believe there is only haumai and aatma, and no place for discrimination. This is incorrect. Guru ji points out the danger of just bhao/bhav, there needs to be bibek buddhi with it. Jivanmukht would be very easy if what you're saying were true! Sorry if I had said something wrong on this point. I might of simplified the point about conscience too much. Thanks anyway for pointing that out. Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 I didn't know I was that powerful! Thanks for the complement ironlion but I think you are seeing things in me that don't exist! Saying that 1984 and Sikhi are two different things does not mean that I try to confuse people. If you like religious systems that don't make you think (yeah that's waht you call "confusing") then why don't you go to Saudi Arabia and join the Wahabis: no need to think there !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Manochal Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Neo, im not jatha bashing or promoting, i dont think iv said anywhere that any particular group gave more than any other in any of my arguments, you'll find that its usually people with little knowledge on this topic who jump to the conclusion that it was only singhs from taksal etc, but those who know a little of the movement such as our brother sukhdev singh will tell you that the singhs were from varied backgrounds and different jathe. However that doesnt mean that we cannot critisice where critcism is due. Im not denying budha dal's contribution hundreds of years ago and against the british, im talking about the here and now. Is it right to live off a reputation carved out by others? Yes singhs did great things in the past, and those singhs belong to us all, they are all our elder brothers, not just to any one jatha's despite this whole 'you have taken amrit from this place and therefore that makes u a nihang/akj/whatever! ' But if just become stuck telling stories of the good old days without making a contribution to sikh history ourselves then what does that make us? Singhs did do great things, but today they have shown that they didnt meet the levels which our forefathers set. We deserve this critcism, especially if we play the part of defenders and lions of the faith and yet remain toothless when the time comes to bite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! I didn't know I was that powerful! Thanks for the complement ironlion but I think you are seeing things in me that don't exist! Saying that 1984 and Sikhi are two different things does not mean that I try to confuse people. If you like religious systems that don't make you think (yeah that's waht you call "confusing") then why don't you go to Saudi Arabia and join the Wahabis: no need to think there !!!! "1984 and Sikhi are two different things" - Are you a Sikh ? 1984: Indian Army attack on Akal Takhat - Destructiion of the Symbol of Sikh Sovereignty Sri Harmandir Sahib desecrated Sikh Library burnt and destroyed after the attack (items also stolen) Sri Guru Granth Sahib Saroop Shaheedi (torched and desecrated) Thousands of Sikh Pilgrims killed including women and children Thousands of Sikh Children orphaned Military rule in whole of Punjab - no one allowed to enter and no one allowed to leave (news reports) (84 November riots) - In Delhi and across India, Sikh houses/businesses are singled out marked out so that organised hindu mobs go round and destroy sikh property and businesses. Supplied with Kerosene and Tyres they single out Sikhs drag them out of their houses and burn them alive in front of their crying sisters/mothers. Our sisters/mothers are gang raped. Deny this happened to the Sikhs ? What Lala land do you live in ? Lalashvari you remind me of those nazi's that say to the jews that the holocaust never happened (don't take that as a complement), check out www.carnage84.com or www.punjabjustice.org and then you might have something to think about. Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Mod Note TO EVERYONE: Please stay on the topic at hand without having to insult other members. i.e. Join the Wahabis. Are you a Sikh? You remind me of those nazis. If this happens again your posts will be edited/deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Ich bin kein Nazi!!! 1. I never said 1984 did not happen! In fact I hate what the Indian government did! 2. But I equally hate those who in the name of SIkhi have killed, raped and tortured innocents! 3. I try to look at it in a balanced way and to frank with you all I see is SIkh being tortured and killed by government forces and the kharkus! SIkh killing other Sikhs! Babbar Khalsa killed a great number of old Nihangs! Nirmala deras were plundered and destroyed outside Panjab! Don't tell me 1984 did not affect me!!! 4. That is why I destest both sides equally! All I know is that the last just ruler of us Sikhs was Guru Gobind Singh and that I don't trust anyone else. That's why I don't trust Indira, Bhindranvala, BhjP, RSS, Congress, Akali Dal , Dal Khalsa etc.... They are all part of Kal Jug and none of them is my Guru! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Don't tell me 1984 did not affect me!!! I never said that, you are the one claiming "1984 and Sikhi are two different things" All I know is that the last just ruler of us Sikhs was Guru Gobind Singh and that I don't trust anyone else Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib Jee and Guru Khalsa Panth. Anyone who attacks Sikhi and Guru Jee. The Sikhs will stand up and fight back and give "Itt da pathar Jawab". Yes in any movement there are 'Black Cats', government agents sent in to deface the movement, that is a common tactic to demolish support of the people. But now that has just become an excuse for so-called Sikhs who cannot stand up for their rights and rights of others. To stay pacificist when innocent people are being killed and tortured is just cowardness of the extreme. Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Who tells you that the whoel Khalistan movement is not a set up either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! I have already described what happened in 1984 in previous post. What would you do if Sikhi was being attacked ? Would you create a defence force to protect Sikhi ? Oh I forgot you think that "1984 and Sikhi are two different things" The fact that Akal Takhat was destroyed by the indian governement tyrant and you say that is nothing to do with Sikhi. I guess you would not take part in any movement to protect Sikhi and the Sikh way of life. "Raj Bina Nahi Dharam Chaley Hai" Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj "Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj" Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Well Akal Takht was destroyed in 1986 by SGPC, AKJ and Taksal: where were you then? Giani Kirpal Singh had explicitly mentioned the fact that Bhindranvale had no right to live in Akal Takht: this was already an attack against SIkhi!!! He had NO RIGHT at all to stay at Akal Takht and transform it as a fortress! Even if there was a tradition of transforming Akal Takht into a fortress it would have been the prerogative of Budha Dal NOT TAKSAL!!!! Indian government and Neo-SIkhs are both guilty for destroying Akal Takht twice!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAd Bhindranvale been so popular he would not have needed to hide in Akal Takht!!!! No doubt operation bluestar was a horrible act but so were the actions of those who were hiding inside the complex!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlion Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalas, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! I see that we have gone back to lala land again .... In 1986 there was a Sarbatt Khalsa (Sikh Public Meeting) where the Khalsa passed resolution of Khalistan as the goal of the Sikh Nation. In this meeting the Sarbatt Khalsa also rebuilt Sri Akal Takhat again because the standing one was rebuilt by money of the indian governement tyrants with the help of Santa Banta after 84. He was later ex-communicated from the Sikhs and became a tankhiaya. You obviously hate - Puran GurSikh, Saint-Soldier, Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale (One of the Greatest Sikhs of the 20th Century) - again this must be your 'conscience'. Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwala never hid from the tyrants and he openly challenged them. Sant Jee already had courted arrest before the attack but they charged Sant Jee with nothing. So to say that Sant Jee was hiding from them in the Akal Takhat is more dirty lies. Again we see an obsession to attack Sikh Sampriyada's such as Damdami Taksal (founded by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj, first Jathedar was Baba Deep Singh Shaheed) who stood up for Sikhi. I don't know what it is with these people. I guess they just hate truth and GurSikhs who have truthful living. Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Sarabt Khalsa can only be called by Budha Dal/ You guys can create as many "meetings" as you wish: they are not legitimate!!!! End of discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Again we see an obsession to attack Sikh Sampriyada's such as Damdami Taksal (founded by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj, first Jathedar was Baba Deep Singh Shaheed) who stood up for Sikhi. Actually, as a side point, I posed the question regarding DamDami Taksal's lineage a while ago and asked for evidence of this prior to Damdami Taksal Ithihas Sankep and received no reply. As far as historical records go, the existance of Damdami taksal at Metha is dubious before Baba Kartar Singh Bhindrawaley's sanctioned text. In short, where is the evidence (written or otherwise) that traces DamDami taksal's lineage to Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji? Piara Singh Padam's text listing historical Sikh jathas and sampardas, and even Mahan Kosh does not mention the existance of Damdami taksal which modern Taksalis claim to be linked to Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh Shaheed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 For more information on damdami Taksal...Please check out these links: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1517 http://www.damdamitaksal.com/qa.htm Here is something for people who are curious who was the real sucessor of sant baba gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale: Here some of the words of sant ji voice "Passing Taksal's Mukh Sewa To Sant Kartar Singh Ji" http://www.gurmatveechar.com/katha/sgs.html Third file- Download it-- 4.4 MB If you think the tape is not authentic rather peace of document is authentic then i feel pitty for you guys... This topic is now LOCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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