Jump to content

Recommended Posts

The 1984 attack on Siri Darbar Sahib was horrendous and a very dark page in the history of the so called "largest democracy in the world" We should never forget 1984.

However, over history we have seen that no-onne...NO SIKH OR GURU ever used Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib or Siri Darbar Sahib as a fortress. This was Baba Jarnail Singh Ji's mistake. They should have never even contemplated fortifying the Darbar Sahib complex.

When Guru Hargobind Sahib was going to be attacked at Siri Harimandar Sahib they left there own daughters wedding and faught away from Darbar Sahib.

We should remember that Baba Jarnail Singh ji was spiritually gifted but politically Baba Ji was not. Baba Ji with the help of Shaheed General Subeg Singh ji fortified the Darbar Sahib complex. The question has to be asked that if Baba Ji knew the government wrere going to attack him why didnt they fortify Gurdwara Gurdarshan Prakash their own dera instead of risking the Be-adbi (dishonouring) of Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib and Siri Darbar Sahib?

Baba Ji knew that the Indian government was corrupt and evil enough to attack Siri Darbar Sahib but Baba Ji didnt move away from Siri Darbar Sahib. Harimandar Sahib is not a fortress and singhs have never fortified the Darbar Sahib complex but to those shaheeds who died fighting against the government troops who invaded Darbar Sahib I bow down and respect because they gave their lives protecting Darbar Sahib.

What I cant understand is that Baba Jarnail Singh was such a courageous, brave and far-sighted man... Did Baba Ji not see that by staying at Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib they were endangering the Darbar Sahib complex. If Baba Jarnail Singh Ji wanted to fight the Indian Government in the field of battle they should have fortified their own dera, made sure there were no saroops of Guru Granth Sahib at their dera and fortified it as if it was chamkaur sahib.

And then after the dishonouring of the Darbar Sashib complex by the indian army when Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang along wiht the help of Baba Nihaal Singh Ji Nihang tried to re-build the Akaal Bunga Sahib according to the exact old replica of the old existing Akaal Bunga Sahib they were claimed to be tankhaiyas of the Panth. Why? because some government officials had made donations to the Buddha dal treasury. This was outrageous. Cant a man make a donation to a charitable fund...could we stop all government officials such as civil servants and clerks stop donating money to their local Gurdwaras. Would all the pardhans, sants and mahapurakhs be tankhaiyas who accepted dontaions from government workers?

The Akaal Bunga Sahib was replicated by Baba Santa Singh Nihang according to the original features down to the frescoes of the ten gurus, yogis and devi devtas. But when the seva of Akaal Bunga Sahib was done the second time round these ORIGINAL BEAUTIFUL FRESCOES were REPLACED WITH TOILET TILES! How can the Panth condone this dishonour of Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib it brings tears to my eyes when i see Siri Akaal Takht Sahib covered inside with white tiles...where have the frescoes gone? We have white tiled over hundreds of years of history.

I bow before the Shaheeds of 1984 and before the souls of all those innocent people who were massacred at Darbar Sahib... and I hope that waheguru ji forgives Baba Jarnail Singh Ji for the only mistake Baba Ji ever commited which was fortifying Darbar Sahib. I am nothing compared to Baba Jarnail Singh and I bow before them and ask if they can forgive my harsh words they only made one mistake but I have made countless errors in my life.. I hope that Baba Jarnail Singh ji maharaaj forgives me these words but they have to be said... and may Guru Granth Sahib maharaaj give the Panth the wisdom not to alienate Baba Santa Singh Nihang the Jathedar of the Qaum but to remember that the truth will always prevail

May Waheguru bless U all

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Granth Ji)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

I bought the Immortals CD and found it very good for its message. I think alot of youth have found out about this, who otherwise would of never found out. The other good thing is that I was able to download the original CD from their website www.shaheedi.com .

Those who criticise Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa, talking about tactics etc... the Indian Governement already arrested Sant and then released him without out any charges so they only used this as an excuse to attack the heart of Sikhi. The attack coincided with a Guru Arjun Dev Shaheedi when they knew thousands of pilgrims were going to be there. Also a model of Sri Harmandir Sahib was made by the Indian Governement where they practiced the attack way before June 84, so it was planned way before. You keep rabitting on about how the Akal Takhat was fortified and how that became a battlefield. What about the 37 other Gurudwara that were attacked and destroyed the same time ? Wasn't Guru Maharaaj present there ?

Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale was defending the faith against the tyrants, Singh, Singhinian became Shaheeds defending the sanctity of Sri Harmandir Sahib.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

Link to post
Share on other sites

A common mistake people make is that the army attacked darbar sahib in order to kill Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. That is far from the truth, if they had wanted him dead, they could have killed him when he gave up voluntary arrest, they could have intensified the assasination attempts. They made a couple of feeble ones but nothing of substance.

The attack on darbar sahib was exactly that, an attack on darbar sahib. Sant Ji had been doing the same parchar and carrying the same shastar for many years previously, its just a nice excuse for the army to say that we went in to flush them out, its rubbish really.

I still think people are a little afraid of admiting that the indian army would attack darbar sahib for no reason. Its a harsh pill to swallow as we dont think anybody could be that evil, but they are. If sant ji decided to defend the place then so be it, he did it to the best of his ability. Sant Ji never wanted to fight the indian army, he would only take part in defence against the indian army. If you listen to his speeches you will notice that he never speaks of war, unless and until the forces attack darbar sahib, in which case he said each and every sikh has a duty to rise up and defend our faith.

To say that he was not politcially gifted is again a mistake. Please read up a bit more on the politics between the sikhs and the central govt and sant ji's responses and actions, you will see that as a sikh his understanding of miri and piri was superb.

Why else do you think the akali dal and longwal etc stabbed sant ji in the back? It was because he was so shrewd that the movement which was apparently being led by the akali dal was in reality led by hum. When he was stopped doing parchar in manji sahib, and he moved, the sangat came to listen to him speak rather than the others such as longwal. He was and is a spiritual and political giant.

At the time militarily nobody else had the courage to tell the sikhs to arm themselves as Sant Ji had, you have to understand, recreating the akal purkh ki fauj is no small task. I have asked many times on other topics for people to explain to me the military make up of certain sikh groups, but nobody has been able to do it. The duty of protecting the sikhs is a duty of all sikhs, but certain people CLAIM to have that role as soley theirs, but then fail to do it.

Santa's actions have been well discussed and debated. If im not wrong he himself went pesh to apologise for these actions?

By talking of the money as a donation is a nice twist, i suppose any bribe could be thought of as a friendly 'donation'. Sorry there is and was excuse for taking the money from the govt of the witch especially for the rebuilding of the akal takhat which she sent her forces to destroy. Im sorry and although you have posted a very nice message, i have to disagree. Santa very much deserved to be made tankaiya, if not for that then for sitting there and watching thousands of sikhs being killed and not lifting a finger. If british civilians/property were attacked and the generals in the army refused to move their troops to defend british civilians, then we all know there would be serious repercussions for this cowardice of inaction.

To rebuild a gurdwara is one thing, but wha about the thousands of broken hearts? or broken homes? Did he do anything to help them? If the govt had paid him a bit more money maybe he would have.

Sorry but i disagree with you questioning sant jarnail singh ji, and despite your sweet words of humility i still find it odd that you can defend santa whose only contribution was as a cleaner against the likes of sant jarnail singh ji.

If you want to discuss santa and his lack of contribution to the panth etc etc please discuss these topics in the relevant topics in the sampardama section.

Ps In a recent human rights publication from human rights workers in Punjab, there is some intresting news. A large number of families made complaints to the group that there families and sons fathers etc had dissapeared in the past decade. After various politcial shambles the govt agreed to pay around 100 families Rupees 1 lakh (100,000) for their loss. On the understanding that the police and govt took no blame for the loss of their family memebers. These families were particularly chosen for being severly poor and severely in need of money since the breadwinners have all been killed.

Unlike the leader of the budha dal, these people on the verge of starvation REFUSED to accept this money if it meant that the govt washed its hands of the blame. They said they would rather starve than forgive the govt for their acts. They wanted justie against the murdering police forces and army, not a few rupees.

Santa should have thrown the money back in the face of the govt, and demanded justice, instead he took the money and then stayed quiet without uttering a word.

I think we need more jathedhar's like these people living in mud houses, and less like the ones being driven around in vans and buses.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What I did was spilt the old topic to into new discussion started from challenge_everything named "Akaal takth as fortress"

Please refrain from slandering or using words like santa or bhindranwale..like you are calling your mate...Please address them with full respect..... i m sure jathedar of budda dal deserve its title "jathedar baba santa singh ji". Since we ourselves as manmukhs, we shouldnt never judge one naam kaami... other than there is nothing wrong with this debate.

Please carry on!!! :D :D

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

The fact remains that Akal Takht is NOT a fortress. Also I have a huge suspicion about Shahbeg Singh

1. if he was such a great general then how come he let Akal Takht be fortified when he knew this was a military blunder?

2. if these guys knew the army was going to Akal Takht why did they not divert the army and transfer the battlefield somewhere else.

3. serious doubts about the Indian army planning the attck live: everyone knows that the army was totally unprepared for the attack as they had no idea what to do: otherwise why did they lose so many soldiers?

4. How can one justify the use of Akal Takht as a military installation as even the Gurus did not do so.

5. Akal Takht was destroyed by the Afghans etc... but the Singhs knew that the best option was to wage guerilla warfare from the forests!

6. When Akal Takht was destroyed by the Afghans who was the Takht?

Budha Dal my friends and that is why Budha Dal left the building of Akal Takht to SGPC: if the Neo-SIkhs only believe in buildings let them believe in buildings! As far as Sikhi is concerned the eternal Takht is chakarvarti and hence immortal!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this all we ever do is argue over the point who done what etc

Move on respect each others maryada's etc and strive on there are still millions of people out there who could benefit from Sikhi but we are too busy "nit-picking".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Its as simple as this..people can agree or disagree:

1)this is a wicked post, and i agree with most of what challenge everything singh is saying!

2)further,i do beleive that akal takht shouldnt have been turned into a fortress, however

3)we dnt know about jarnail singhs relationship with his guru; from what ive heard, he had darshan of maharaj..how do we know maharaj didnt ask him to fight,etc?? we just dnt know do we..

4)jarnail singh has revitilised a whole generation, and more, of sikhs..because of him, many of us dont need to go back 300+ years to be awe inspired..he was a sant sapahi..and a very rare soul, who stuck to his word, and what he beleive in

5)despite maybe making the mistake of fighting in darbar sahib, i can think of nothing else which flaws his character/personality/karma..from all his speeches and what people have said about him, he was on a spiritual level much above most of us can acheive/hope to acheive..so lets not forget this when we get close to slandering his name (which,as we know, is a big sin in gurbani)

6)aside from some internal issues, lets not forget how brutal this government is..im not being biased..because this same brutal government enforces its harsh regimes/acts on all communities (most noteably the untouchables/dalits in india, and muslims in kashmir/gujurat)..and lets not forget how our hindu brothers treated us in all this commotion (not all, but a stronger majority)..the so called respected and loved sikhs of bharat were unnassisted,as they were tortured into extinction..despite the endless acts of selfless service they had provided, in history, to the hindus, and india as a nation..if our hindu brothers really wanted to, and really loved/respected us, this whole commotion would have been over within a few hours..but it went on for weeks..and it continues today..kinda depressing really

Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly I am appauled that a gursikh such as yourself has the audacity to call Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang the derogatory term "Santa." When they are not only Jathedar of the Qaum but also a fellow gursikh.

I did not suggest that the Indian Army attacked Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib just to kill Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Sahib and it is true that Baba ji had been carrying shastar (ak47, pistols...etc) for a long time.

Can anyone honestly say that if Baba Jarnail Singh ji was not present within the Darbar Sahib Complex that the Indian Army would have attacked Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib? Infact Baba Jarnail Singh Ji's presence within the Darbar Sahib Complex gave an excuse for the Indian army to attack Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib. If only Baba Ji had left the Darbar Sahib Complex before the attack... Operation BLuestar may never have even taken place...

Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang went 'pesh' in order to keep unity within the khalsa panth. Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang went pesh for a mistakie they didnt even commit. If government officials donated money to the Buddha dal this had nothing to do with the rebuilding of Akaal Takhat Sahib.

Jathedar Baba Santa Singh ji knew that fortifying Akaal Takhat Sahib was a dangerous mistake and I suggest that if you have a personal vendetta against Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji I suggest you talk to the man face to face or to his UK counterpart the infamous Nihang Niddar Singh Ji.

What about all those innocent yaatrees who were caught up in the violence in Operation Bluestar...it was Baba Jarnail Singh Ji's mistake which gave the excuse to the Indian army for their deaths.

I bow before the Shaheeds of 1984 and before the souls of all those innocent people who were massacred at Darbar Sahib... and I hope that waheguru ji forgives Baba Jarnail Singh Ji for the only mistake Baba Ji ever commited which was fortifying Darbar Sahib. I am nothing compared to Baba Jarnail Singh and I bow before them and ask if they can forgive my harsh words they only made one mistake but I have made countless errors in my life.. I hope that Baba Jarnail Singh ji maharaaj forgives me these words but they have to be said... and may Guru Granth Sahib maharaaj give the Panth the wisdom not to alienate Baba Santa Singh Nihang the Jathedar of the Qaum but to remember that the truth will always prevail

May Waheguru bless U all

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Granth Ji)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Excerpts taken from http://www.sikhreview.org/june2000/chronicle.htm ( for full article, please visit this link )

The assault against the Golden Temple, codenamed Operation Bluestar, was launched on June 3, 1984, the martyrdom day of Guru Arjun who, as we earlier observed, had got the foundation of the Temple laid by a Muslim divine four hundred years ago and was the first of the Sikh Gurus to die in defiance of the Mughal Empire. The assault, which the Sikhs themselves call the Ghallughara, had been diabolically conceived not only to scathe the Sikh psyche, but also to make the "sufficient moral effect from a military point of view on those who were present, but more especially throughout the Punjab." That is how Brigadier Dyer had explained his intention when the came to Jallianwala Bagh, near the Golden Temple, to disperse an illegal assembly sixty-five years ago on April 13, 19194. Dyer had acted impulsively on his own. The Operation Bluestar was not only envisioned and rehearsed in advance, meticulously and in total secrecy, it also aimed at obtaining maximum number of Sikh victims, largely devout pilgrims unconnected with the political agitation. The facts should speak for themselves.

On May 24 1984, the Akali Dal announced a new program to intensify the agitation from June 3, by blocking transport of Punjab’s food grains to other States, non-payment of all taxes due to the government and regular courting of arrest by Sikh volunteers.

On May 25, the government used the announcement to deploy 100,000 army troops throughout Punjab, also encircling 42 important Gurdwaras in the State, including the Golden Temple of Amritsar. Punjab should have been placed under a curfew if the government wanted to prevent innocent pilgrims from gathering at the Darbar Sahib in Amritsar and 42 other Gurdwaras throughout Punjab, which the army planned to attack, to celebrate Guru Arjun’s martyrdom day. A team of Union Ministers deputed by Indira Gandhi met the top Akali leaders secretly on May 26, two days after the announcement of their new program of agitation. The Akali leaders could at least have been asked to take steps to ward off the pilgrims in view of the impending military operation. This was not done. On May 30, President Zail Singh, the Supreme Commander of the Defence Forces, and himself a Sikh, assured a delegation from Punjab that the army had no intention to assault the temple. The President himself was ignorant about the impending operation.

Until June 1 1984, Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale held his regular public meetings on the roof of the community kitchen inside the Golden Temple complex. The meetings were open to all, and it should have been possible for a group of commandos to nab him there by using minimal force. This was not done. It should also have been easy for specially trained sharp-shooters, who had positioned themselves on the buildings around the temple, to target Bhindranwale and his armed followers, and to "neutralize" them. On June 1 afternoon, mixed groups of various security agencies that had occupied the multi-storied buildings in the circumference did open fire against the temple complex when Bhindranwale was holding his audience on the roof of the kitchen building. Instead of targeting Bhindranwale, the sharp shooters aimed at various buildings, including the main shrine of Harmandir Sahib which received 34 bullet marks. The objective of the barrage of firing, which lasted seven hours, was to assess the strength, the training and the preparedness of Bhindranwale’s resistance. According to Devinder Singh Duggal, in-charge of the Sikh Reference Library located inside the Golden Temple complex and an eye-witness, Bhindranwale’s followers were under strict instructions "not to fire a single shot unless and until the security forces or the army entered the holy Golden Temple." The action claimed the lives of eight pilgrims, including a woman and a child, inside the temple complex, and injured twenty-five others.

The government of India’s document, called the White Paper on Punjab, released on July 10 1984 does not acknowledge this incident. When the firing stopped, a group of Akali volunteers courted arrest. There was no curfew in Amritsar that night and the next day. Thousands of pilgrims came into the temple without restrictions. According to eye-witnesses, approximately 10,000 people had gathered inside. There were also 1300 Akali workers, including 200 women, who had come to join the program of agitation announced by the Akali Dal. Although they had come in without any hindrance, it was not possible for them to leave without risking arrest. On June 2nd afternoon, two Sikh student from Delhi wanted to take a train back to their city to appear for an examination on 1st June morning. At the Amritsar railway station, they found out that all outgoing trains had been cancelled. But there was not declaration of a curfew to steam the stream of pilgrims in the Golden Temple. Journalists were allowed to move in and out of the temple complex, and to interview Bhindranwale, until 3rd June evening when suddenly the curfew was imposed. Three journalists who came out of the temple complex, after speaking to Bhindranwale, on June 3rd evening told me that there were more than ten thousand Sikh devotees inside with no inkling of what was about to follow. One journalist counseled some village women, who nervously questioned him about the army deployment, to stary put until the curfew got lifted. The journalist himself had no clue on the scale and the nature of the army operation underway. A group of human rights workers from Delhi who later investigated the Ghallughara concluded that the failure to warn the people was not "forgetfulness" but "deliberate".

It was a pre-planned attack, therefore it was nothing wrong if the Singhs had weapons to be prepared for any eventuality.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is not here to discuss where carrying shastars is wrong, which I have never implied but it is here to judge where it was justified for Baba Jarnail Singh Ji with the help of Bhai Subeg Singh Ji to turn the Akaal Takhat Sahib into a fortress. This doesn't mean singhs cannot carry shastar in the Darbar Sahib Complex and the fact that the attack was pre-planned is not under discussion... Can we stick to the topic please Bhai Sahib Jio...sorry for any harsh words

May Waheguru bless U all

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Granth Ji)

Link to post
Share on other sites

challenge_everything Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004

Did Baba Ji not see that by staying at Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib they were endangering the Darbar Sahib complex.
veerjee, i think Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindranwale resided at Nanak Niwas.

If Baba Jarnail Singh Ji wanted to fight the Indian Government in the field of battle they should have fortified their own dera, made sure there were no saroops of Guru Granth Sahib at their dera and fortified it as if it was chamkaur sahib.
veerjee, there were 42 other Gurdwaras that were attacked :( , so that means no matter what, the forces were gonna go on an all out mission and destroy every Gurdwara anyways.
Link to post
Share on other sites

vaheguru ji ka khalsa

vaheguru ji ki fateh

If we go by our past history Baba Gurbaskh Singh Ji Shaheed the 2nd Jathadar of Damdami Taksaal fought at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib Ji, was he wrong to fight there???? am sure in our beautifull history there countless places where the sikhs fought battles that were in civilian areas i guess the neo nihangs ukwale (not all nihangs are bad) wud say that the sikhs were wrong first u lot go to battle and then tell me all the actions u did and ur battle planes........ the budha dal have not to this day taken any part in any morchas or forget about protecting Sri Darbar Sahib they couldnt protect the poor sikhs in delhi and india in nov 1984.

Guess its the same mind mentality we know BEST. Sant ji done what he thought was best at the time and GUESS what he was RIGHT as the attack awoke the sleeping tiger and the roaw was heard world wide as the saying going

BHINDRANWALE SANT SOAPHY JIN SUTHI QUAM JAGGUY

(bhindranwale sant solider wake the sleeping nation)

history is proof to this we would not be here and the countless Shaheeds who gave their heads in the 70's, 80's 90's and even today the warriors roam the fields off punjab. The battle field has changed AWAKE SINGHOO AND SINGHINOO

i pay homage to the Shaheeds i will not pay disrespect to them or question them, they did what was right at the time. What r we doing??? playing internet wars.

its sad we can debate and in a cunnig way have a go at Sant ji and the Dharam Yudh Morcha. Its the same ppl we know who they are but boyz u only making it worse for urself.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bhaji Sukhdev Singh Ji can you give the source for Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji fighting in the Darbar Sahib Complex please...because what I heard was Baba Ji knew that they could't win but came out singing the shabad "pehla maran kabool jeevan ki chadd aas..." and walked out along with a jatha of singh

And Rochak Ji isn't Nanak Niwas part of teh Darbar Sahib Complex.

I agree with Sukhdev Singh Jhamka Ji and I must add that I did not start this thread off to be a separate thread or debate but as part of the response to the newly released "Second Rising."

This thread was not started off as a battle or challenge to the spirituality or sainthood of Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Sahib. This thread is not an internet war I hope that Baba Manochal and other such gursikh veers appreciate that. I was merely responding to the false ninidaa of Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji. And I wanted to delve deeper into our own history to make our own youth aware of the events which lead to the 1984 evil attack on Darbar Sahib.

I have to add that I have no connections with the over-zealous Nihangs of the UK or with the fundamentalist Damdami Taksalis... I jus wanted to look into the events which lead to a most bloody and awful time in Sikh history... This was my humble attempt of carrying on the 'Jaagowaiya' of truth that started even before the arrival of Dhan dhan Satguru Nanak Ji Maharaaj.

This post was started so the truth could be found out not as a battling ground between the over zealous nihangs and fanatical damdami taksalis... Jhamka Ji i'm as sorry as you are to see this post being treated as a war zone...Maharaaj Kirpa kare...

I bow down to the Shaheeds and ask them to guide us all on our quest to find Sikhi and to remain ever questioning and learning.

May Waheguru bless U all

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Granth Ji)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not suggest that the Indian Army attacked Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib just to kill Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Sahib and it is true that Baba ji had been carrying shastar (ak47, pistols...etc) for a long time

Well then what are you suggesting?

Can anyone honestly say that if Baba Jarnail Singh ji was not present within the Darbar Sahib Complex that the Indian Army would have attacked Siri Akaal Bunga Sahib? Infact Baba Jarnail Singh Ji's presence within the Darbar Sahib Complex gave an excuse for the Indian army to attack Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib. If only Baba Ji had left the Darbar Sahib Complex before the attack... Operation BLuestar may never have even taken place...

I dont know, to me that sounds like your contracdicting yourself? On one hand your saying that they didnt come to kill sant ji, and then on the other hand your suggesting that if he hadnt been there, then they wouldnt have attcked?

Surely thats the same thing, that they came to get him??

As has been pointed out numerous other gurdwara shaibs were attacked at the same time, they also experienced beadbi and were ruined and sikhs were killed there as well. Was Sant Jarnail Singh Ji at each of those gurdwara sahibs as well? Were they fortified? If not then why was there a need to attack them?

And im sorry but the fact that it was preplanned has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion. If the attack was preplanned then thats suggests that they were waiting for an opportunity to carry out the offence. It was a matter of time. Whichever excuse they use is irrelevant once the plan has been hatched practiced and put to paper.

Only a fool would not defend his house when he knows it will be attacked. A bigger fool will leave his house undefended and try to fight a battle in the next town, knowing that once they kill him they are totally going to destroy his house. It would be better to at least TRY and defend your own house to the best of your ability. (When I say your house i refer to our collective fathers house)

Again i will repeat if Sant Jarnail Singh had left the complex was irrelevant, he wasnt born there was he! Have a look at his parchar all across the country, he wasnt there, i repeat if they had wanted to get him they could have done so at any stage. As Rochak has pointed out sniper would have been the easiest choice. It seems that you have fallen for the propganda machine which fed people the notion that the forces went into the complex to clear 'extremists'. Its rubbish.

The innocent yaatrees.... was it sant Ji's fault that the sikhs were killed at other gurdwara sahibs too? Who will you blame for the 200 or so innocent sikhs picked up and killed in encounters before the attack between the years 1980-84? Whose mistake was it that they died? What about the people in delhi? Whose fault was that? People on this forum im sure would suggest that Bhai Satwant Singh and Beant Singh were to blame for killing gandhi...? Rubbish again.

People underestimate the cunning of politicians and particularly those in india, do you think they care for sikh life? Look at the killings in Kashmir, kill the sikhs blame it on muslim extremists so that bill clinton has harsh words with pakistan. Do you think they cared about the familes whose homes they ruined?

As far as santa singh goes, forgive me but that is his name isnt it? Ok i'll be honest with you, as to date i know of nothing that santa singh has done which has beniffited the quam. I really honestly dont. so i wont be giving him any elaborate titles, as for personal vendettas, we'll i'v never met him, so no its not personal, but i feel as a sikh it is my right to expect my so called quam da jathedhar to pull his finger out and do something when my brothers and sisters are being burnt alive and raped across india. If not then well....

And what can niddar say about santa singhs actions? There is no excuse. Its a shame that the sikh 'warriors' failed to participate in the panthic morcha, even sant like Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji stepped forward and offered himself up for voluntary arrest during the days of the morcha pre1984. Were was the budha dal? Lokk their actions have much to be desired and to be basic and simple they did nothing so leave it that.

Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang went 'pesh' in order to keep unity within the khalsa panth. Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang went pesh for a mistakie they didnt even commit. If government officials donated money to the Buddha dal this had nothing to do with the rebuilding of Akaal Takhat Sahib.

As for him going pesh... why have you used inverted comma's? Was the pesh not a real pesh? If he is jathedhar of the quam then why go to do pesh in front of them? Is he not strong enough to tell them were to go?

Secondly if the government has just destroyed akal takhat, killed thousands of sikhs... and then gives the budha dal a donation.... then doesnt that raise some suspicion?? Why would they give a donation at this such a time? After having committed such atrocities? Are you suggesting there was some sort of deal between the indian govt and santa singh? Hmmmm

Also sorry just wanted to ask, who did most of the building work when santa and co built the akal takhat? Was it mostly singhs from their dera or other people?

The fact remains that Akal Takht is NOT a fortress. Also I have a huge suspicion about Shahbeg Singh

1. if he was such a great general then how come he let Akal Takht be fortified when he knew this was a military blunder?

2. if these guys knew the army was going to Akal Takht why did they not divert the army and transfer the battlefield somewhere else.

3. serious doubts about the Indian army planning the attck live: everyone knows that the army was totally unprepared for the attack as they had no idea what to do: otherwise why did they lose so many soldiers?

4. How can one justify the use of Akal Takht as a military installation as even the Gurus did not do so.

5. Akal Takht was destroyed by the Afghans etc... but the Singhs knew that the best option was to wage guerilla warfare from the forests!

6. When Akal Takht was destroyed by the Afghans who was the Takht?

Budha Dal my friends and that is why Budha Dal left the building of Akal Takht to SGPC: if the Neo-SIkhs only believe in buildings let them believe in buildings! As far as Sikhi is concerned the eternal Takht is chakarvarti and hence immortal!

OKKKK

Firstly sorry you say youve done all this research etc, but tell me how long you've spent in the army making defensive positions? if he was such a great general? Do some reading buddy.

point 2, again army did not enter to get a few individuals but to cause the most pain it could to the sikhs.

point 3 they lost so many soldiers because they had underestimated the courage and josh of the singhs. Their planning was great, but they were faced by the great general Subegh Singh and the ladle of guru gobind singh ji!! I believe one of the indian generals said, something along the lines of " if i had 100 of these sikhs i would be able to go and f*** (name of the then pakistani prime minister)". Even brar the ** talks about the resilience of the sikhs.

4, i explained above

5. so lets let them destroy everything then we can hide in the jungles. Firstly how much jungle area is left in the punjab? Where would you hide? Gorrila warfare was adopted but the current punjabi terrain is one of the worst possible for which to adopt this. And oh sorry wasnt it the nihangs who adopted the guerilla warfare? SO that were they were in 1984!!! Hiding in the jungles!!! lol oh ok thanks!!

6. I that is the case then why do nihangs make such a big deal out of being thrown out of the akal takhat in the 1920's? Why do they care? Why does their jathedhar go pesh in front of them? I agree about buildings, but its what they represent which was destroyed, when Guru Granth Sahib ji is Burnt and abused that is worse than buildings being destroyed, so tell me what should be done to those who do beadbi to Guru? Buildings is exactly what the nihangs think the akal takhat and others are. Why else do you cover up the evidence as soon as possible? The spirit and feeling of the sikhs was wounded, and rather than do anything to rebuild that, they rebuilt a building. If the akal takhat had remained as it was, and santa singh and the others had used theirgovt money to buy useful weapons and gone out to get justice then we would have respect. Unfortunetly things didnt turn out that way. All they care about is buildings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Baba Manochal Posted

I believe one of the indian generals said, something along the lines of " if i had 100 of these sikhs i would be able to go and f*** (name of the then pakistani prime minister)".
i am not sure but i think it was something like If i had just 3 of these Singhs i would be able to take on the entire pakistani army.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

SGPC took over Akal Takht it was unable to defend it. They took a repsonsibility that is too big for their shoulders. History proved them wrong! And of course they're going to blame Nihangs!

What a farce!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Baba Manochal Ji again and again you talk of the other Gurdwaras that were attacked. I do not deny this but please could you provide a list of the Gurdwaras and if possible the amount of damage caused in terms of casulties and any be-adabeee dont ot eh Gurdwara Sahibs or Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

You assert that it wasnt Baba Jarnail Singh Ji's fault and he was just protecting our fathers house....

I never suggested that the Indian Army came to attack Baba Ji... but Baba Ji's presence within the Akaal Takhat Sahib gave the Army the excuse they needed to desecrate Siri Darbar Sahib.

How can you honestly say that if Baba Jarnail Singh Ji wasnt entrenched in Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib, the Indian Army would still have desecrated the Darbar Sahib?

Yes, the army attacked other Gurdwaras. But were any desecrated to the extent of Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib?

So you admit

Only a fool would not defend his house when he knows it will be attacked. A bigger fool will leave his house undefended and try to fight a battle in the next town,

Was Guru Hargobind Ji a fool??? He left Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib to fight elsewhere.

You admit that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji knew the Indian Army was going to attack him but didn't even consider leaving the Darbar Sahib Complex to fight the army elsewhere.

Wasn't Shaheed Avtaar Singh Ji Brahma a singh of the Buddha Dal who killed anyone who touched the honour of our sisters our desecrated our Gurdwaras???

Look at the schools that Buddha dal money is running, look at the Gurdwaras looked after by the buddha dal which were never desecrated, look at hundreds of years of seva, simran and sacrifice for the panth...

If you look at the Dharam Yudh Morcha you will know that actually there were Buddha dal Singhs who went to jails and took part in the Morchas.

Baba Manochal Ji you ignore any of the achievements of the Nihang singhs, you close your eyes and cast them down, in all of my posts I have never called Baba Jarnail Singh Ji without the word Baba but you continue to disrespect Baba Santa Singh Ji....please open your mind a little more (only a benti veer ji...respect all thanks Bhaji)

As lalleshvari ji said.....the new moto of the fanatic damdami taksalis OF THE UK is that if there is any problem within the panth blame it on the Nihangs.

I have to add here that when asked the Damdami Taksaal Singh of India said they have no quarrel with the nihangs and infact they were quite close to Buddha dal....its only in the fanatic taksaal youth of the Uk that the most prejudice anti-nihang view is developing

On the side of th Nihangs although being over-zealous the Nihangs generally bear no malice towards taksaal...

Infact it was Jathedar Baba Santa Singh who gave Baba Kartar Singh Ji the land to build there own dera - GURDWARA GURDARSHAN PARKASH.

And Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji Nihang laid the foundation stone of the Gurdwara Gurdarshan Parkash!

Lets leave behind our prejudices and follow the path of love...

bow down to the Shaheeds and ask them to guide us all on our quest to find Sikhi and to remain ever questioning and learning.

May Waheguru bless U all

What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth.

(Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Granth Ji)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

You say:

"bow down to the Shaheeds and ask them to guide us all ......"

I agree 100%, I also ask you to stop doing Nindia/criticising or slagging off Singh and Singhnian that have laid down their lives down for Sikhi and for us to have a chance to be Sikhs. Without these great Shaheeds like Shaheed General Bhai Avtar Singh Brahma of Khalistan Liberation Force we could not even discuss Sikhi.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh !

Link to post
Share on other sites

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa

Vaheguru ji ki fateh

Veerji challenge everything

Some off ur info is totally wrong, guess u to seem to wanna wipe away the sins off budha dal (santa singh group). History is testimony to what happened and u cant hide from the truth that the budha dal faction off Sikhs did nothing during the burning hell fires of Punjab in the 80’s 90’s and even now. There is ample evidence that santa singh did not take park in the Dharam Yudh Morcha,( video footage from the bachan of Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa spokes off santa singh not going the quam to get their rightful demands which we are in the process of putting on the web) . I bet santa singh would tell u himself he was against the Dharam Yudh Morcha. Yes other Nihangs ie Baba Bidi Chand jatha (Baba Daya Singh sursingh Wale), Baba Nihal Singh Taran Dal etc took a massive part I bow my head to them even though u regard me as a fanatical Damdami Taksaalwale even though I could not clean the shoes off these great warriors.

quote

Wasn't Shaheed Avtaar Singh Ji Brahma a singh of the Buddha Dal who killed anyone who touched the honour of our sisters our desecrated our Gurdwaras???

Its easy to parrot read history about this singh or that singh. Do u know Shaheed General Avtar Singh Brahams back ground, guess not he was not one off santa singhs boyz, he was a Nihang from Baba Bidi Chand jatha, he was donated to the freedom struggle by the jatha as many more Nihangs singhs were, Shaheed General Brahma was Jathadar first off the Tat Khalsa jatha after 1984 then went on to set up one of the most fierce some jatha Khalistan Liberation Force, Baba Bidi Chand jatha was the jatha that gave Sant Kartar Singh ji Khalsa money and shelter in the early days am sure they gave part off the land for the Damdami Taksaal HQ. So lets not give santa singh credit, it was yes Nihang singhs but the REAL ones not the fake one sitting on there asses. Santji bodyguards Shaheed Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi, General Manvir Singh founder of the Khalistan Commando Force where ex Nihangs to. There are countless sacrifices made by Gursikh from every walk off life, we dnt dubt or disrespect or critise them. We on about the socalled leadership the ship sailing with a ruder comes to mind, the budha dal need to sort themselves out.

Quote

As lalleshvari ji said.....the new moto of the fanatic damdami taksalis OF THE UK is that if there is any problem within the panth blame it on the Nihangs.

Dnt give urself too much credit it uk nihangs as ur not worth the hassle, u not that a big problem, the bigger problem is the youth are going away from sikhi and instead of working around how we going to improve our jeevan and to improve others and help the human race to be tolerant and truthful. We are going around distorting our beliefs and history condemning the Shaheeds, it was not the fantical Damdami Taksaal that started this war off words, it was not the Damdami Taksaal that wants to clear from the minds what has been done to US in the past 50 odd years.

As with the taksaal having now quarrel with the Nihangs even the santa sing jatha its true, we dnt have any quarrel on a personal level, but when it comes to the Panth then it’s a different thing. Depends on how u ask the question and what u wana hear. It was the same Damdami Taksaal that excommunicated santa singh on the 26th Jan 1986.

Ask baba ji what he thinks off santa singh when his down later in june or better still we will record it and put it on our website just to please those who keep asking for proof.

There is a lot off good out there, but if we are going to be honest lets look at what went wrong, yea be self critical but lets not try to hood wink the poor young ppl that come on here and try to give a one sided view off our history. I not like sitting here typing away when I could be helping some person or giving some encouragement to someone..

Sorry for the long reply

Peace

sukdev

Link to post
Share on other sites

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

alright here is some more, taken from http://bhindranwale.tripod.com/fateh/id10.html ( please go to this link for the full article )

please notice it says : Information Courtesy of DAMDAMI TAKSAL

In early June 1984 the government forces attacked the golden temple in Amritsar on the pretext of flushing out terrorists. The attack was planned well in advance and was not in decision taken late in the day because there was no other alternative. In October 1983, the Indian Army selected 600 men from different units and sent the to rehearse the assault on a replica of the Golden temple at a secret training camp in the Chakrata Hills about 150 miles north of Delhi: 2 officers of the RAW, the Indian secret service, were sent to London to seek expertise from the SAS (see the report by Mary Anne Weaver in the Sunday Times 1984)The attack was timed to coincide with the weekend of 2nd and 3rd, the anniversary of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev who built the Golden Temple and compiled the Sikh's Holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib.

It was planned in the knowledge that there would be thousands of pilgrims and visitors. No warning was given to those pilgrims of the impending attack. Despite the government 's claims that only 'extremists' were killed other reports show that many visitors were killed by the army (see e.g. 'Indian Express' 18/6/84)

In case u think that the army attacked suddenly, here is what it says :

The army used excessive force. Eyewitnesses say that the army deployed tanks, armed personnel carriers, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns and helicopters. Many of the buildings surrounding the Temple were reduced to rubble. It was a military operation using indiscriminate force against a non-military target and as such was in breach of Article 51 of the 1977 Protocol to the Geneva Convention. In the Punjab as a whole, about 150,000 to 200,000 soldiers were used to flush out "terrorists".
dear veers, such a preparation cannot be done to launch a sudden/surprise attack.

i am not defending or attacking anyone here as i do not have enough knowledge about the different people being discussed here. The simple point i want to put through is that the attack was pre-planned.

Thanks for reading and sorry for taking your time.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

~das Rochak

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...