Naam Drirh

[Gurjeet Kaur]

vaheguroo jee ka khalsa

vaheguroo jee kee fateh!!

saadh sangat jeeo,

over the past few months i've been thinking of getting/doing naam dhridh. i was gonna do it at the december akj smagam, but my dad wasnt exactly sure if i should, and i was having my own doubts. now that the may smagam is coming up in vancouver, i was thinking of doing it now

so i was wondering if someone knows of an article explaining exactly what it is, or if someone could post an explanation, something that i could read and also give to my dad to read...if possible, something that would pursuade him to let me do it

thanks

gurjeetkaur

[KAAL]

naam dirr is a belief which was taken by the akj from the namdharis whos name obviously means those who have adorned the naam !! naam dharna naam dhari. also known as kooke.. as they kook when doing simran.

also similiar to modern akj style.. so its obvious where the idea was taken from.

At the end of the day simran is simran, and sayin that my way of doin simran is betta then urs.

I dnt think it is right that u shud hav a room where only certain 'sikhs' can go if they had this special amrit tht the panj pyare giv naam dridh, in one sense wot bout the panj pyare that gave u amrit, u guru that gave u the gurmantar, sikhi the gurmantar isnt like a toy which can b upgraded and changed to suit u, and the ppl who have told u that u shud it isnt right of them to b putin peer presure on u to go and take amrit again (cause thats wot u hav to do)

[Jagroop Singh]

Gurfateh

Bhen ji, its best to post this kind of question on an akj message board. If there isn't one attached to the canada/america akj site, visit:

<http://akj.org.uk>

you'll have Gursikhs there who have gone through the experience and and they will be in a good podition to give you info.

Gurfateh

[Guest]

Gurfateh

Bhen ji, its best to post this kind of question on an akj message board. If there isn't one attached to the canada/america akj site, visit:

<http://akj.org.uk>

you'll have Gursikhs there who have gone through the experience and and they will be in a good podition to give you info.

Gurfateh

Why don't you post it here? We are not running this site against any group so I clear that for everyone right here. Now members should take the initiative to anwser particular anwser and enlighten their fellow sikh youth.

Regards,

[KAAL]

oh by the way jagroop singh, i've bin there done that and bought the T-shirt, i aint tokin S**T, if you disagree please tell me why, and for your information, i did and still have contacts with 'AKJ' peeps, who arew very high within the organisation, they all know my views, from the young to the old, and they all respect them. What they do is there business, but i will say something if u have innocent individuals who know nothing of this, and 'brainwash' them into this way of thinking, yes i was also taken up by this 'brainwashing' when i first got into sikhi, but once you educate yourselves you will see fact from fiction. This division, i dont like with in sikhi itself, i think in the long run it will do us no good.

Bhen i ask u yes if you want to convince your dad, put it on the AKJ board, but if you want a to knw for yourself, just read here, i think people from both sides will and should come and state their opinions.

[Jagroop Singh]

Gurfateh

i feel that my reply has opened a can of worms..

the reason i responded to bhen ji gurdeep kaur the way i did is because thats what i did when i was in her position; i heard lots of people's opinions about this jathebandi and how they are right or wrong, and how this other jathebandi is better or worse - blah, blah, blah. i too have also discussed issues that i once felt were controversial with many of the Sangat.

i have not yet been given Naam from the Guru (through the panj piyare) and so am in no reasonable position to offer bhen ji an insightful reply concerning something i have not experienced...to do so would perhaps be foolish of me - hence, i attempted to redirect her with nothing but good intentions. my thought was: "it would be good for her to get some info 'straight from the horse's mouth".

i would humbly like to say that i feel this is the most positive way to progress in Sikhi.

my dear brother Kaal mentioned that the akj have copied this particular interpretation and practise of Naam from the naamdharis (who have a human 'guru')...is it not wise for bhen ji to place her own interpretation before such answers so that she can come to her own conclusion? i say this regardless of whether i give her an answer or someone else does...

its always best to go to the source..in this case it concerns the views of the akj...so, hear their side of the story.

please forgive me if i have caused any offence.

One Guru Granth / One Guru Panth

Gurfateh

[KAAL]

woah, sorry, i very rarly proof read any of my replies, i just type from the heart and hit enter, i am sorry that i have come on a 'strong' and sort of a hate thing goin on, i assure that was not my intent, all i wanted to say was, i havent talked to anyone, as in listend to crap people speak, i have been there and seen it myself, also yes go straight to the horses mouth, very good i agree, but how are you meant to get a unbiased opinion?? on here yes you will get biased opinions for and against, that way a individual can decifer fact from fiction, and find out through both an unbiased truth. (they both being biased and opposites end of the spectrum they should cancel each other out). On the Akj forum, it will all be biased and 1 way, nobody there to challenge their way of thought, (challenge in sikhi is good, we are meant to question everything, otherwise you dont knw, and b blind faith).

On here there are people from everywhere, and different backgrounds, different way of thinking. You will see everything from every angle, because everyone will see it from a different angle.

This applies to all subjects on this forum and not just this 1.

[Jagroop Singh]

Gurfateh

thanks for your points dear veer ji; i take your point of view onboard.

Gurfateh

[sukhasingh]

I've always been told that its been a bit exclusive and not very open, I have been to programs in the morning's where they don't even let you in the room,because you haven't taken their amrit hence, your a Manmukh. What cultish tactics.

Like Kaal said Question these things as there are some nasty poeple out there,who's intentions arn't so clear as they seem.

[Jagroop Singh]

Gurfateh

dear veer sukha singh,

if someone insinuates you are a manmukh in such a situation, then thats obviously out of order - is that what that person said or is it an assumption upon your part, that that was their view?

if they did say that, shame on them...manmukhs like that are in all guises. Guruji says, "wherever there are saintly ones, there are also sinners".

also to be honest, i am not entirely sure either why their technique/practice of Naam Abyas is restricted and made exclusive - its something i still need to look into.

aside from that, can i say that when i do simran, the picture of the Khalsa as a unified entity and the concept of Guru physically exsiting through all those Singhs and Singhnian is amazing - just the thought of it...

pure love is Gurmat...beyond all jathebandis and personal opinions, there is only:

One Guru Granth/One Guru Panth

Gurfateh

[Guest]

from wat i know about this is...... the akj hold these for amrit dhari people to concentrate fully on their naam simran right - to help them do it better and have a sangat of fellow amrit dharis around them - it is not cultish as sukhasingh pointed out

now u have people complaining that they cannot go in there - there is nothing special about a room - u can do naam simran anywhere u want!...

whether u do it inside your own home - or in the gurdwara - or in this room in the gurdwara the naam simran is the same.. it depends on ur concentration

now u have people saying... "i do my panj baniya - i dont eat meat - i dont drink." yeh fair enuff - so why not go the full way and take amrit?.... takin amrit is vital - if they are enforcing that only amrit dharis go into this room there is nothing wrong in that

fateh

[Jagroop Singh]

Gurfateh

thanks for the insight veer ji - very helpful.

Gurfateh

[KAAL]

so y do they segregate themselves off?? and its not just non amrithdharis who are not allowed it is any1 who hasent had this naam dirrh, where you can only get from akj 'panj pyaree' now, so as sukha singh was saying, you are not allowed to go in there if you havent had their amrit, if you want go ask them they will say the same. you have to be part of their 'exclusive club', otherwise no entry, i have seen once a 'bouncer' outside of the room so that no 1 being apart of their exclusive club cant get in. in india they are blatent and ask you straight out if you have had the 'special' amrit which u get naam dirr, if you say they you are not allowed.

now this my friend is a 'cultish tactics' as sukha singh has said

[Guest]

oh ok... well i was just saying as much as i knew on this topic..

:shock: bhul chuf maaf

fateh

[Bhai Sahib]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

it is a shame like other threads on this site that the question asked has not been answered instead other unintellectual comments have been made.

I know that Kaal states that he has been pesh to panj piare who advise devotees how to jaap naam as Guru Ji instructs by saas giras but his posts do not reflect that this is true. He appears to have very minimal knowledge on this topic which an abhiaasi would have.

I do not normally post on such boards but since there appears to be very few people who actually know what they are talking about it left me with no choice.

Yes by some the method of showing the devotee how to jaap naam is known as naam dhird which basically means instilling naam inside you.

The first point is that it is not AKJ amrit that we are talking about but Guru Ji's amrit.

The singhs who do seva at amrit sanchar usually held at AKJ rainsbhai are adhering to pratan rehat maryada which many other people have discarded due to tring to speed up the amrit sanchar.

There is nothing special about naam dhird which other panj pyare should also be showing devottees.

As mentioned earler all that naam dhird reffers to is a method shown to you by the panj pyare of jaaping with every breath which is what Guru Ji's hukam is.

Yes they do stop people joining them at amrit vela who do not know how to do abhiaas by sas giras for the simple reason that it distracts others when there is someone in the room who does not know what they are doing. It would be like playing football with someone who had no idea what he/she was doing. If someone has made the effort to fet up at 2am and travelled to meet with other gursikh he/she wants to ensure that they get full lahha

If you disagree with my comments that is entirly your choice but that does not distract from the truth that all panj pyare should be giving amrit ablaki naam dhird

All i would tell phen ji is to listen to Guru Ji and her heart. Her father should be proud that his daughter wishes to take amrit and also wear a keski as Guru Ji has ordered.

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has written numerous books via which questions such as these are answered. If you have a desire to find out the truth i suggest you read those books.

I hope this answers some questions rather than creating more!!!! :?:

[Bhai Sahib]

sorry but i forgot to correct another falsehood propgated by Kaal in that naam dhird comes from naamdharis. This is complete falisy since Naamdhari jaap naam out loud hence why they are also called kuke. They do not repeat naam by saas giras and also when they take amrit they are not given naam dhird.

So as i stated before it is concerning to see individuals allowed to post any falsehood they like on this site...... :shock:

Since Kaal sates he knows most of the AKJ in the UK perhaps he would like to have this discussion in person at the next rainsbahi in Bradford so i can clear up all the misconceptions he has. But he may be too busy with his girlfriend as stated by his other posts on the thread re sikhs having boyfiends/girlfiends :wink:

Well the thing is if we dont go out with our own, they will find sum1 else to go out wid! Thats blatent but its true!

ok now think of it this way, u cant b with this gyal, cause u think its wrong, u telling me that you r guna stop thinking about her?

now say you get with this gyal, you are as happy as can be, this is the gyal for you, the 1 you are goin to marry, your mind is at ease you are happy, you can allow your mind to settle and think about wateva you want, i.r paat pooja.

[KAAL]

lol

Baba Jee i would be happy to come along to the next rehnsbhai, no worries, infact will bring my girlfriend along so jus PM who you are and i will meet u there, no problem, and i have heard kuke doing simran, and i also have been to the amritvela's they sound exactly the same, u breath in saying vah (deep breath down to the pit of ur stomach) and from there breath out saying gurooooo. I have no problem with the way people do simran, none wotsoeva, but this having to take amrit again to obtain this 'gift' well that to me is wrong. Also i have spoken to loads of singhs about this, and 1 thing that is always said is that techinque automatically comes to you, if you do regular amritvela's and stuff. wot about these people do you condemn them? and the people who know how to do it do you condemn them? Actually i know of a few places that (who say they are part of the Jatha) who allow anyone to come in and do amritvela with them, without being a problem, the only place that i saw that happen here is Sikhi camp a few years back, what about these singhs are they now condemd from AKJ.

Now look at the subject like this, AKJ are the only ones who give this way out, and only people who are allowed into their amritvele, now, is the whole sikh congreation stupid? are they wrong? because they dont giv saas graas out?? now are all these panj pyare fake and not really panj pyare at all? cause they dont give out saas graas?

If u think i am being harsh and getin out of control with the whole thing, i see you as my brother, i break bread with you as my brother, but yet brother i cant do amritvela with you, and if it isnt seen as my amrit being better then yours, then brother what is it. please educate these uneducated folk :?:

baba i mean no disrespect, please tell me and the other sangant if you see things differently

daas

Kaal

[A_Singh_but_cant_Sing]

"If someone has made the effort to fet up at 2am and travelled to meet with other gursikh he/she wants to ensure that they get full lahha "

I have read your comment and was really informative Bhai sahib ji, but I have only one question. What about the person who has woken up at 2am in the morning and is into the path of sikhi and wants to take amrit, if he/she was not allowed to have sangat of gursikhs doing simran, then wouldnt that distract the person and have second thoughts on getting into sikhi. From personal experience, it is hard for me to concentrate alone( hope I can reach that state) but it is easier if there were gursikhs doing simran and I joined in.

Sorry for this....I said one question but it another one has come up. When doing naam simran, is pyaar important??

If I have said anything wrong then please forgive cause I have little or no knowledge.

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!

[Dynamic_Banda]

With regards to the insulence and disregard for other Nanakpanthis and sikhs that Bhai Sahib has shown in his posts.. I put forward these points..

You stated the Naamdharis say their mantar out loud and hence its not the same as naamdhridh..

The Naam is never even spoken out, they will never say the gurmantar out loud in any public place.. which includes the darbar..

Their kooking is not them shouting out the naam.. as the naam is not KOOK.. OR kwakrooo.. or whatever.. The kooking comes from the sound of them breathing and holding a note.. similar to the so called reasoning for the headbanging and screaming experienced at Reinsabhais..

Many AKJ followers Randhirpanthi.. state that they scream and so forth in order to cover up those who have engaged in saasgras on stage.. so their noise covers up the real gupt recitation of naam..

You say the naamdhrid is a purataan maryada.. yes I agree but Bhai Sahib Bhai Randir singh.. is not purataan infact hes quite modern as is his religion and belief system.. The Saas gras idea comes from yoga.. and predates Satguru Nanak.. and the whole getting naamdhridh.. comes from the naamdhari maryada.. as does the kooking in public.. Another thing is when you go to a naamdhari amritvela they dont care if you've had naamdhridh or not as they only repeat the saasgras in their hearts and minds.. the sounds we hear.. are just the kooks..

And if you have the idiotic preception that the screaming which occurs at rainshabais is actually naamsimran or saas gras.. then bhai sahib you are very very mistaken and confused..

I am in no way slagging off Saas Gras (real form not the screamin) as I have had naamdhridh and fully respect the maryada. I just refuse to ignore the facts of history.. just to make it out like AKJ is the only way.

Gurfateh Ji..

[Bhai Sahib]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

it looks like i have made this debate flourish but as stated in my initial e-mail most of the comments made are falsehood.

To answer some of the points made in particular by Kaal and by Dynamic_Banda

Firstly Kaal in your post you have clearly demonstarted that you have not had the gift of naamdhird from the panj pyare since you state that:

u breath in saying vah (deep breath down to the pit of ur stomach) and from there breath out saying gurooooo.

This is a common misconception of the technique and unfortunately i cannot correct this misconception only the panj pyare can

I agree with (for a change ) when you say:

techinque automatically comes to you, if you do regular amritvela's and stuff

But that will only happen if your previous karam allow it. In the same way to take amrit your previous karam need to allow you to obtain that gift.

all these panj pyare fake and not really panj pyare at all? cause they dont give out saas graas?

I would not say or even think that other panj pyare are fake but you need to look at how some amrit sanchar ceremonies are conducted. As we all know it is the panj singh who collectively make up Guru Ji so when it comes to giving the amrit ablakhi amrit di daat why does only one or two of the singhs give the amrit. Correct me if i am wrong but was not the reason for panj chue in the mouth eyes and hair not so each of the panj pyare woukd administer this? If you agree with these points then it is logical that there are other steps missing in some amrit sanchar.

I am def NOT saying that those who take amrit elsewhere are not amritdhari but it needs to be borne in mind that all jathebandi have different forms of amrit sanchar. The taksal differs from nanaksar who differs from Akali who differ from SGPC who differ from the nihangs.

To take the nihangs as an example they say that if dasam granth is not parkash at an amrit sanchar that amrit sanchar is invalid. also they will not gie a bibi khanda da amrit they just give bibia 'amrit' made with a kirpan reciting jap ji sahib. For further info see http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/guru22.html

Therefore you cannoy just attack the AKJ for being different you need to attack all the other jathebandi as well. BUT who is right and who is wrong???

If you disagree with the jatha that is your choice but does not allow you to slate them and ignore what other people are doing.

I also disagree strongly with your statement that:

i cant do amritvela with you,

You are more than welcome to join me and like other singhs i would not do saas ghiras but we can sit together and do simran and read bani should you wish.

With regards to Dynamic_Banda points you state:

Many AKJ followers Randhirpanthi.. state that they scream and so forth in order to cover up those who have engaged in saasgras on stage.. so their noise covers up the real gupt recitation of naam..

This is correct from Bhai Sahibs time during there final years. Prior to Bhai Sahib not being able to control doing saas ghiras in sangat simran was not done out loud on the stage. Since this method of doing simram started in Bhai Sahibs last few years it has continued within in the Jatha. It is NOT done now to cover up the gupt recitation of naam.

I know there are people out there who dsagree stongly with how the AKJ do simran but if they get raas what is the problem? If you disagree why go to thier rainsbhais? With Guru Ji's kirpa there are programmes at vertually all Gurdwarae on a Sat night.

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randir singh.. is not purataan infact hes quite modern as is his religion and belief system

All of us are pratan since we have no idea what previous janam we have been through. Via bhagti we can know where we where and who we where in our previous life. So how do you know who Bhai Sahib was in thier previous life. It is very easy to make up a lineage but with the truth there is no linage. It just appears. I know numerous people use the lineage aegument but if you think logically then you are dissing Guru Nanak in that who was before them where did thier knowledge come from?

With Guru Ji's kirpa you can obtain the gian of a thousand years, therefore having no linage does not wash.

Also Bhai Sahibs relogion is no different from yours or mine it is Tat Gurmat

I have never said that:

make it out like AKJ is the only way.

Please provide me with a quote from a speech done on the stage, a pamplet or book which states that 'AKJ amrit' is the onlt Amrit. Those in the jatha know that it is not AKJ amrit but Guru da Amrit given by panj pyare.It is other individuals and jathebandi propogating falsehood so as they are not questioned as to why all panj pyare do not administer amrit? Why they do not give naamdhrid?

As i said before if you disagree that is your choice. The funny thind is that both of you say you have had naam dhrid yet you are stopping this bibi from doing so WHY?

[KAAL]

ok first of all the difference i went to take amit, not take amrit again cause i wanted an upgrade to my amrit service plan and at the time i didnt know about 'naam dridh' and the exclusivenuss of it, i was jus some guy who wanted to take amrit, nothing more nothing less, i heard there was an amrit sanchar on so i went!

Also i would very much like to meet you at the bradford rehnsbhai whih i think is on the 14th of june :? please PM telling me who you are and i shall be there without fail

I see you chose to ignore me on that comment, i have no problem with saas graas wotsoeva as i said before, its the pushing of people to take amrit again.

I think we discussin this in person would be good just PM and will discuss us meeting up.

you take care

Gurfateh :twisted:

[Dynamic_Banda]

Lineage of the Gurus can be found by reading Bachitar Natak, credit is given where credit is due.. Guru Gobind singh ji talks about gaining his knowledge of all the past and so forth by doing tap in his previous existance on mahakaal.

Lineage is of importance else why would the bachitar natak go from akaal purakh to the tridevtas to raam krishan etc, and not start with Guru Nanak. Also the gurmantar which we are taught is VAHEGURU when split according to BHAI GURDAS JI's Vaar it gives the names of the four names of God incarnate in the four ages.. So Vaheguru Shabad itself shows a lineage a relation between that which once was and that which is now..

You state all these things are falsehoods.. yet logically the only way you can prove what you believe is through Sant Baba Randhir Singhs own writings, which is fully acceptable.. I have no problem with you using his texts as granths and basis of all your blind faith.. however then you must acknowledge you are a Randhirpanthi.. one who follows the teachings and path of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, there may be many similiarities between your faith and belief and that of Sikhism, just as budhism has many similarities with hinduism as Sadarta (budha) spent many years preforming meditation with hindoo rishis.. and through his own visions and enlightenment started his own movement and faith.. known to all as budhism.

In the same way The sas gras, the bana, all have their origins from sampardava of the sikh panth. Either you look at it logically and see that Bhai Sahib Randhir singh picked the best path for himself which was a collection of bits and bobs from different sampardava (which is fully acceptable) and inserted his own ideas here and there..

Or you see everyone else as false and Randhir singh as a Guru type figure who created the Real way based on his books and personal life experiences and interpritations of bani.

You ask me why if I have taken Naamdhridh do I tell the lady not to..

Well Naamdhridh was put forward to me with a closed mind, I wasnt allowed to question when I did I met people like yourself, who insisted it was the true and right way and everything else was a faslehood. The only research material provided was Randhir Singhs books. I noticed one thing while speaking to alot of AKJ and that was simply that prior to Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh.. there is no history.. because there was no AKJ.. !!

I love Bhai Sahibs idea.. that no matter what was going on he would grab a vaja and do kirtan.. it was kinda funky.. on buses, at demostrations all over the place.. kirtan kirtan kirtan.. thats funky.. and for that I rate him..

but this creation of the true way and so forth.. this is all from the Randhirpanthis, who refuse to accept anything else especially logic..

[Bhai Sahib]

Dynamic_Banda

You have raised numerous points most surround around your inital aurgument that Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh has created his own panth.

However you have nothing to justify this by. It is very apparant that you have not read any of Bhai Sahibs books. If you had you would realise that everything they write about is based upon gurbani and all of thier writings are predominately about understanding gurbani. Other than Jehl Chitta which was thier biography written by Bhai Tarlochan Singh.

Therefore i would like you to explain fully on what grounds you have made up the name

Randhirpanthi

With your great imagination you should also therefore refer to nanaksari, taksali and other people who follow sadh as of a different panth. So please also clarify who is infact a follwer of the khalsa panth???

So what are your thoughts about Sanata Singh who is allowed to sit on the same level as Guru Maharaj and then announces his hukamnama after Guru Ji's??

Also i would like you to explain the linage of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. You have mentioned about Guru Gobind Singh and bachitar natak which is not what i asked you. So please clarify what lineage you CLAIM Guru Nanak had???

You comment about gurmantar shows your shallow understanding of Bhai Gurdas dia vara

Also the gurmantar which we are taught is VAHEGURU when split according to BHAI GURDAS JI's Vaar it gives the names of the four names of God incarnate in the four ages.. So Vaheguru Shabad itself shows a lineage

The actual shabad referes to how the gurmantar is collected from the from the four jag to be the manatar for kaljug. Also back to your statement re lineage...which human being gave Guru Nanak the gurmantar?? If there is lineage then it would have been given by a person.

Finally you state:

Randhirpanthis, who refuse to accept anything else especially logic..

I presume this can also be said of Taksali, Nanaksari, Akali, Nihang, SGPC, Sadha de Chele etc etc etc etc....

That is the main problem with the panth that rather than individuals improve on thier own rehat they are too busy putting other jathebandi down.

So please either provide me with logical answers to the above questions or class me as stupid and not reply to me so i too can stop wasting my time on this forum

I cant be bothered to reply to those who are stupid. and thats most of you !!

ps i have responded to Kaals request of a PM and await his reply to a meetinf in Bradford. Dynamic_Banda feel free to join him since it appears that you know each other. C u there :?:

[Dynamic_Banda]

Firstly RandhiPanthi refers to those who follow the teachings and ways of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh.. and as all AKJ refer to Bhai Sahibs ways as the true official way (such as naamdhridh from the panj) they follow the path of Bhai Randhir Singh and hence can be called Randhirpanthi. Just as those who follow the teachings of Nanak are called Nanakpanthi, and those who follow teachings of Kabir.. KabirPanthi.

Taksali, and Nanaksari, are not the same as the AKJ as their maryadas can be traced back to Nirmala Sampardava, as can many sants, They may not class themselves as Nirmalas now but they will not argue against their origins from the Nirmala Samparda.

Nihangs I would believe are also another Samparda,

Samparda is an order of sikhs who has originated from Satgurus tapee (blessings) where as a jathabandi is an order created under one individual or a group of individuals. Such as Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh.

Nirankaris also refer to alot of Satgurus bani but I am sure even you, well especially you would agree they could never be classed as sikhs. !! So saying that Bhai Sahib Randhir Singhs books talk about gurbani and refer to it is justifying his beliefs as pro sikhi is misleading.

Read Bachitar Natak. You'll find out what you need to know about SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji from that.

The actual shabad referes to how the gurmantar is collected from the from the four jag to be the manatar for kaljug.

Thank you for confirming exactly what I said just in your own way.

As a Randhirpanthi you can live your life however you believe is right, but either give credit where its due and admit to having the same system as the naamdharis who have engaged in Sasgras and Naamdridh (Hence the name NAAMDHARI ) many years prior to Randhir Singhs coming or accept yourselfs as a new faction which is a breakoff of sikhism which believes in many similar ideas but is in all right its own religion and belief system in which you refuse the existance of any truth prior to your own..

P.S I have no desire to come to an AKJ rainsabhai...I would rather as you suggested spend my time at some other gurdvara engaging in whatever mahraj blesses me with, be it simran. sasgras. or just darshan of Satguru Ji

[Bhai Sahib]

It is very apparant from your e-mail that you have a deep hatred against the AKJ for whatever reason. You can deny it all you wish but it is very apparant in your posts. It also makes it obvious to the Bibi who asked the original question that your views are biased and should be taken as such.

It is also very apparant you have not read or if you have you have not understood Guru Ji's hukam

Ne Kapat Kamavoe Mere Gur Sikho

As ever you have also failed to comment on any of the points i raised instead went back into your attack against Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji

You state that

Taksali, and Nanaksari, are not the same as the AKJ as their maryadas can be traced back to Nirmala Sampardava

Please eleborate on the Nanksari link back to nirmale etc??? Since I along with sangata from that jatha always tought that it was begun by Baba Nand Singh Ji and that there was no-one before him. Please elaborate.

Also i have been told that Nidaar Singh who i am sure you know very well states that the taksali lineage is false and according to his webmaster they are going to protray the falsehood in the forcomming webpage nihang.com

So is Nidaar Singh wrong or is it you :?:

You also state that:

Samparda is an order of sikhs who has originated from Satgurus tapee (blessings)

It is apparant then that you do not believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji as your Guru. Since if you read Bhai Sahibs biography you will see it state that they received the blessings from our current Guru. I am sure you will have something to say about that as well.

Having spoken with a sudhi naamdhari this evenning i can confirm that your statement is pure falisy when you say:

admit to having the same system as the naamdharis who have engaged in Sasgras and Naamdridh

Since they do not repeat gumantar with swas but out load when naamdri are together. I am not too sure where you get the falisy from.

Also they do not allow any1 other than naamdhari sect into there simran sessions so i have no idea how you and Kaal state that you have attended. Unless you took amrit from them as well!!!!!!!

I have no desire to engange in this futile debate since it is apparant that you have no desire to engange in an intellectual debate but rather use each post to discredit Bhai Sahib. Also i am 100% sure you will use my quote above re the naamdhari to compare it how the jatha does not let anyone else in and how we must be alike wow weeee!!!!!!

I have stated in my previous postings to Kaal that he can join me for amritvela should he wish and the same applies to you or anyone else reading these messages.

As the webpage sarbloh.info states the TRUTH will prevail. I will leave it at that. I am sure Guru Ji themselves will rid from the panth those who are going against tat gurmat and punish them for thier deeds. So there is no need for either of us to continue this debate. If i am wrong i will get my punishment and the same applies to you. I suggest we both do ardas to Guru Ji that if either of us are on the wrong path they Kirpa Karke show us the right path before it is too late.

Gur Fateh to you all