Jagroop Singh Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Gurfateh hope all are well. i would like to point the moderators of this forum to 'dynamic banda' and his comments. a moderator recently pointed towards 'bhai sahib's' comments and stated that: “If we keep our attitude towards resolving the issues then there won't be any issue but when we keep the attitude of being offensive and don't want to spread the knowledge we have gained through our reading and study then this kind of questions you will see everywhere not just on sikhawareness without any anwser and turning youth more into confusionâ€. yet i find the lack of reaction to this and other previous comments from ‘dynamic banda’ a sign of extreme uneven-handedness - a very insulting and hurtful mail by anyone’s standards. the terms: ‘randhirpanthis’, ‘headbanging’, ‘highpitched orgasms’ and now 'jai satguru randhir singh and his panth' have been used - again no comment from 'TruthSingh', a moderator who had previously responded to ‘bhai sahib’s’ mail which in comparison was extremely mild to say the least…there's not much else to say. i will not make this into an extremely long rebuking mail because this would only satisfy the negative elements who continue to vulgarise this debate. if mails like this are left on the thread without any interception by the moderators then i think that i have recently joined a forum which is actually not very productive but infact destructive... i know rome wasn’t built in a day but if people went about destroying and burning every building before and while it was being erected, then it would never have got built at all… i think that sums up what has happened to this particular thread – hopefully it won’t spread to the rest of the forum. Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 fateh jagroop bhaji - thank u for ur concern and i was about to point out to dynamic banda about his language it seems like bhai sahib and dynamic are gettin a bit too personal on this one matter - bhai sahib is replying with decent messages while dynamic is starting to use defamatory language and i must say that we dont want to cause friction between peopel here yes a debate is allowed - but do not stoop to low levels trying to diss others - i will go thru the messages and remove any such sentences and please try to keep this thread clean please note everyone - all moderators may not be able to point out every insult or implied hatred in every single message - so if anyone see's anything that is uncalled for - please let any of the mods know fateh ji 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagroop Singh Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Banda Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 :shock: My wonderful beautiful post.. where hast thou gone.. Alot of ppl seem offended by what I have said. You say im being rude and so forth yet I cant see what gives you that impression, other then the fact I refer to high pitched screaming as orgasms.. The sound is very similiar I was just trying to express my personal preception on the whole experience. Bhai Sahib stated that my points where false and invalid and that i didnt reply to any of his questions. Yet I feel I did. Please correct me if im wrong. Which according to you I always am. :twisted: I would like to emphasise what I express is my own view gathered from my own experiences and knowledge.. Those experiences include naamdhridh from the AKJ, and misleading information which portrays all to be false other then that which is tought by a fellow AKJ who has no qualifications other then what he or she has heard from another member of the Randhirpanth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Banda Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 p.s. dont blame the mods or freak at them.. they doing there best to keep idiots like me from messing around.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 i think there has been some very interesting points raised on this topic. bhai sahib... u say in your last post that dynamic_banda has not commented on any of the points u raised, but looking at his post it looks like he answered all of your questions, although i would like to see what he replies to the new questions u have raised. i have skim read bhai randhirs autobiography, this was a few years ago, but something that stuck with me was that he claimed to have transformed copper into gold using some kind of chemical formula & if i remember correctly, he also said that the authenticity of the gold was checked. please could someone verify that. 8) my point is that there's no way to chemically transform copper into gold... that's known as alchemy, but no way of doing it was ever discovered. so how can bhai randhir singh claim to have done it? :? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhai Sahib Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 dynamic_banda has not commented on any of the points u raised, but looking at his post it looks like he answered all of your questions, although i would like to see what he replies to the new questions u have raised. I do not propose to list all the questions that dynamic_banda has not answered. But it is apparant to anyone who reads my posts that there are numerous questions not answered or side steped. I would urge you to re-read my posts and dynamic_banda's responces. I also look forward to him answering my recent questions :roll: In relation to claimed to have transformed copper into gold using some kind of chemical formula & if i remember correctly, he also said that the authenticity of the gold was checked. This is true but if you read the autobiography you will find that Bhai Sahib did Ardas for Bhai Hira Singh who was Gurmantar Heen and was japping a vendatic mantar. Guru Ji listened to Bhai Sahibs ardas and blessed Bhai Hira Singh. To thank Bhai Sahib, Bhai Hira Singh gave Bhai Sahib three to four formulas to convert copper into gold which he obtained from China. But after having the formula and trying it Bhai Sahib's mind kept drifting into thinking about all the maya he could create. He found that his piece of mind became upset and in the end discarded the formula. There is a sikhia in this sakhi that you should not let anything distract you from your bachan bandagi no matter what the rewards of it. my point is that there's no way to chemically transform copper into gold... that's known as alchemy, but no way of doing it was ever discovered. so how can bhai randhir singh claim to have done it? We may not know about something but that does not mean it cannot occur. As we all know there are people out there who believe in alchemy. There are also numerous websites. After searching for alxchemy on Google i found http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html within 30 seconds along with 623,000 other webpages!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 i understand the important sikhia that can be learned from the sakhi... thanks. but then does that mean that the sakhi is not true? did bhai sahib randhir singh write it as a metaphorical tale meant to teach a valuable lesson into the effects of maya, or did it really happen? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagroop Singh Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Gurfateh thats an interesting way of looking at it guv...never quite thought of that. i would say this though; taking your thought into account, i still do believe it actually happened. if you ever get a chance to read Rangle Sajjan (The English Translation is called The Imbued Ones), you'll find things in there that will amaze you. the book is about the sangat bhai sahib was part of and was published after all those people mentioned within it had passed away. the reasons for this posthumous publishing become evident as one reads on - the book talks about the spiritual attainment of these individuals. we hear of people who float and hit ceilings, who float over sangat and prostrate in front of Maharaj, who see future events, who have Darshan of Guru Sahibaan in human form etc. in comparison to copper transmutating into gold, these could be labelled even more unbelievable. remember, many metals when placed together through chemical reactions lead to new metals just as 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen leads to water, so certain metals can collectively produce new metals - just because it hasn't been 'officially' done with copper and gold doesn't mean a process doesn't exist...science is limited like most things - it can be summed up as 'truth until further notice'. bhai randheer singh's approach to Gurmat in his books is amazingly simple - his constant reliance upon quotes from Gurbani as opposed to injecting his own interpretation is highly commendable. for him to use parables without declaring them as such would be massively out of character when one considers his general writing style, evident through many of his other works. it becomes obvious that if he were ever to use a parable, it would not escape our notice that it is intended as a parable. in this case as in other cases, he is talking of an actual happening. that is my sincere belief. Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 thanks for the response... sorry for my late reply... half way through exams!! :twisted: wow... i didnt know about the spiritual levels that people had achieved... where can i get a copy of 'the imbued ones'? so did bhai sahib use spiritual powers to convert the copper? or was it with a formula?... & if so, did he write it down anywhere? :wink: also, i was thinking about the sikhia of the story... & although i get the point about that maya can distract u from akaal purakh, but what if u use the money to help others... i mean a lot of seva could have been done & a lot could have been done for the panth... dont u think? 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagroop Singh Posted May 25, 2003 Report Share Posted May 25, 2003 Gurfateh those were exactly the thoughts that went through his mind according to him - the good that could be done... but bhai sahib then realised that what he was experiencing was the subtle beginnings of his spiritual downfall - hence he left it alone, and threw away all trace and mental memory of the formulas; and continued with his spiritual journey. maybe the lesson is that goodness comes from the sweat of one's brow...and not from quick-fix solutions. ps. sikh missionary society in featherstone road southall probably sell it or if u come to a rainsabai, ask the book table person there and chances are they'll have a spare copy or get one for you for the next rainsabai. Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Dear Cyber Sangat, Fateh Singh di Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karniji. I have come across the following post regarding Namdhari Sikhs that I found to be a total bias and gives people the wrong idea and so I decided to post a reply to it. Having spoken with a sudhi naamdhari this evenning i can confirm that your statement is pure falisy when you say: Since they do not repeat gumantar with swas but out load when naamdri are together. I am not too sure where you get the falisy from. Also they do not allow any1 other than naamdhari sect into there simran sessions so i have no idea how you and Kaal state that you have attended. Unless you took amrit from them as well!!!!!!! I have no desire to engange in this futile debate since it is apparant that you have no desire to engange in an intellectual debate but rather use each post to discredit Bhai Sahib. Also i am 100% sure you will use my quote above re the naamdhari to compare it how the jatha does not let anyone else in and how we must be alike wow weeee!!!!!! If anyone has actually been to a Namdhari Diwan, he or she will not be saying such things. Namdhari Sikhs DONOT reveal the Gurmantra by saying it out loud. The word 'Mantra' is from the Sanskrit 'Manoh' meaning 'to recite in secret/silence'. Hence no Namdhari Sikh shouts out or KOOKs the Naam. Mr. Bhai Sahib's claims are utterly false. I am saying this as I am a Namdhari Singh myself. Namdhari Sikhs DO, or atleast they are expected to, recite Naam with each and every breath they take. There have also been quite many Namdhari Sants who would stay awake for over 20 hours a day reciting Naam with every breath. One of them, a remarkable Sant Jawahar Singh ji Mirze Walay, is also a well known figure in the Panth who after receiving Naam from Satguru Ram Singh Ji was given the instruction to recite Naam with every breath. This he followed so strictly that he eventually gave up sleeping for the rest of his life! Also it must be understood once and for all that no one is driven away from Namdhari Diwans or Asa Di War as falsely claimed by Mr. Bhai Sahib. I do not know which Namdhari Sikh he talked to or if he even talked to one at all! No matter to which caste or religion a person may belong to, he is always given a place in the Diwan. There has never been any incident of any Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Budhists, African or any member of a Sikh sect being denied entry into the Diwan. Mr. Bhai Sahib's claims are not true. Fateh Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhai Sahib Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 I think you need to read my reply which you have taken out of context again. I did not state as you said Also it must be understood once and for all that no one is driven away from Namdhari Diwans or Asa Di War what i said was exactly what you said in that naamdhari do not utter naam out load in sangat but they DO if they arrange a programme at which ONLY naamdhari can attend. Do you deny that naamdhari do get together occasionaly to do simran?? You also failed to deny the false calim made that naamdhari say gurmantar in the same manner as the jatha. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 Mr. Bhai Sahib, Fateh Singh Di Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karniji I think you need to read my reply which you have taken out of context again. I did not state as you said what i said was exactly what you said in that naamdhari do not utter naam out load in sangat but they DO if they arrange a programme at which ONLY naamdhari can attend. Do you deny that naamdhari do get together occasionaly to do simran?? You also failed to deny the false calim made that naamdhari say gurmantar in the same manner as the jatha. Let me assure you once again that when I say Namdhari Sikhs DO NOT drive any one away from Diwans, I also meant the Naam Simran sessions which may be held in Gurdwaras or in houses as PART of the normal Diwan. Also even privately in a Namdhari-only congregation we DO NOT speak aloud the Gurmantra, let alone shouting it. And no one is kicked out as you have falsely claimed. Hence your claim has no truth in it. I do not know who gave you this idea and how you got it. As for the AKJ's method of doing simran, I do not know and do not care how they do it as long as they do it with Sharda. Only the Satguru can determine if he is satisfied with the meathod of Naam Simran a person is doing or not. Namdhari Sikhs do not get involved or fight over such things. Namdhari Sikhs were called Kukas because of their loud shouts during Diwan and Shabad Kirtan in which many would become intoxicated with bliss, especially in the pressence of the Satguru, and become 'Mastanas'. Fateh Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhsingh Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 arnt naamdhris banned from sikhism? and can i hear some of that keertan? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 sukhsingh, Fateh Singh di Fateh Bulai Parvaan karni Because Namdhari Sikhs were anti British at the time when the rest of the Sikh world was supportive of it - including many Nihangs that were the Mahants of several Gurdwaras, Namdhari Sikhs were harrassed in many ways by the mainstream Sikh population. Often times their congregation, which was banned by the British, was told to the British by the mainstream Sikhs causing the Namdhari Sikhs to be thrown into jails, tortured and many times executed. Often times they were forcefully driven away from the Gurdwaras that were under control of Singh Sabha Lahore including the Darbar Sahib and this led to certain restrictions such as they do not allow Namdhari Singhs to perform Diwan or Kirtan in the Golden Temple etc. But Namdhari Sikhs are definitely not 'banned' from Sikhism as you have mentioned. Yet because the Singhs gladly 'accepted' that 'will of God' and did not ask for mercy from the supporters of British - and neither were they given one - their story is not known much outside the Panth. I do not wish to get too involved in these topics because there already are Namdhari Websites that shed light on them and there is no use of any debate whether Namdharis are Sikhs or not, or the succession of Guruship after Guru Gobind Singh etc. Our history and doings in the past, extracts of which may be found on the websites, speak for themselves as of who we are and what have we done for the Sikh religion and the country of India. If you are interested to learn more about Namdhari Sikhs you may visit all of the following websites: http://www.namdhari-world.com http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk http://namdhari.faithweb.com http://namdhariveg.sytes.net For Namdhari Shabad Kirtan audio and Videos, please visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/radio.htm There is no clip where any 'Mastana' is present I presume but still it is a good place to hear Gurmat Sangeet sung in Shudh Raags. There are probably only the ones sung by 'Harbhajan Singh', who was a new Namdhari then, that does not conform to the Raag Tradition of the Namdhari Sikhs. Fateh Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagroop Singh Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Gurfateh when you say Harbhajan Singh, do you mean 3HO Yogi Harbhajan...fill us in a bit more veer ji. Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Jagroop Singh, Fateh Bullai Parvaan Karni No, it's Harbhajan Singh 'Rattan' of All India Radio. It was long time back, in the 70's if I'm not mistaken. Fateh Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Gurfateh Although I'm not a Namdhari, I can corroborate Fateh Singh's comments about silent Naam jaap, as I was invited to a private Namdhari gathering by a Namdhari friend who didn't turn up! So I quietly sat at the back and didn't even realise they were doing simran. This was not at a Namdhari mandal, but a private function of Namdharis alone. Firthermore the same friend refused to do naam simran kirtan because she said it should always be done silently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 the same principle is used for akhand kirtani jatha the difference is they say it aloud... the gurmantar can only be administered by punj pyaeh, and therefore by having nonamritdharis in the sngat while swaas giraas simran was being done, it would reveal the gurmantar... my personal view, and i think the akj also believe this is that a sikh benefits much more form sangat doing simran along side him, as he is listening to waheguru from others... so if there are 20 singhs/singhnia doing simran the effect of simran is multiplied that many times..hopefully someone with more gyaan on this matter could confirm this?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 I took amrit through takshal. Our Panj Pyara never gave us gurmantar in person or silently in our ears. It was a same gurmantar for everyone. I think theory of giving gurmantar secretly in person is bit ridicolous. Because whole bani is guroo roop. It doesnt make sense punj pyarei each and every individual "Gurmantar" in person. Can anyone here enlighten on this matter? :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 i dont know how others were given it,... but the method i think taksal give is not the same as naam dhridh... amrit is a special experience.... a few of my friends took amrit from sant baba mann singhs jatha... when they were given amrit there were like a hundred ppl in the room...and they described it as being in an amrit factory... sometimes i feel amrit is given too readily...ppl need 2 be willing to give their head to guru ji! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Vaheguru gurmanter hai, Japeh Haumeh Koe. Opps, was i supposed to keep it a secert. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Vaheguru gurmanter hai, Japeh Haumeh Koe. Opps, was i supposed to keep it a secert. Indeed! lol I raised the same point on another forum and was told the following:- veer jee.. its not hte actualy word waheguroo which is to be kept secret thats ridiculous, but the method of recitation. The gurmantar is given at amrit sanchars for a reason, even if the method isnt imparted. why is that reason? they have forgotten the method but still impart gurmantar, whats the point of that if everyone knows it. There is a point to it, just look deeper. The method is just as important as the word itself. I can say this for a fact from personal experience, beyond that I know nothing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maha_Pavitar Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 it's sad that such things are joked about... daaasro buksh lai.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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