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islams another attempt to convert sikhs


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Lalasingh, yes please post the verses and let me clear them out for you.

Baba Fareeds bani also talk about going to the mosque and praying 5 times a day, a muslim act solely:

You never come to the mosque for your five daily prayers.

Rise up, Fareed, and cleanse yourself; chant your morning prayer.

- Ang 1381

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Lalasingh, yes please post the verses and let me clear them out for you.

Baba Fareeds bani also talk about going to the mosque and praying 5 times a day, a muslim act solely:

You never come to the mosque for your five daily prayers.

Rise up, Fareed, and cleanse yourself; chant your morning prayer.

- Ang 1381

Remember Baba farid lived long before sikhism started. How can you expect him to pray in Sikh temple and recite gurbani? baba farid was born in muslim family and mosque is the only place at that time he will go for praying and namaz was the only prayer he was taught. I still believe lot of muslims can reach God by praying to him 5 times ,remembering Him all the time and staying in His raza. But I doubt taking Mohamad as last prophet and living a life like him will take them anywhere.

Also since when waking, cleansing and praying to Almighty is against gurmat, but believing Mohamad as last prophet and saviour sure is against sikhi. And taking Mohamad as a role model is catastrophe. Praying is not patented by muslims. If you want you can pray to HIM 5 times.

Here are verses you are looking for

1.Forced conversion

Sura (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem ; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

Sura (9:12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" Brethern in religion here means fellow muslims.

Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

2.Al taqiya (lying or conealing from unbelievers)

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." (Surah 3:2

Now please don't try to twist the words like lot of muslim apologists are doing. It means what it looks.

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There is nothing wrong with accepting Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet in the line of Abraham. Guru Gobind Singh has put "Muhammad" at the end of the lists of prophets and divine Guides in his Bachitar Natak,- maybe stating that he actually is the last prophet. The Gurus were not prophets, and never claimed to be.

regarding your verses it is very important always to see the context of a verse before trying to interpret them. i knew that you would pull out surat al tauba so le me clear it for you, but first show you the danger of taking verses out of context:

In Gurbani we can read the following by Guru Angad Mahraj:

Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

Page 89, Line 2

Imagine a christian/muslim use this verse to proove that Sikhs are militant extremists with hatred towards non-believers.. would you find this fair? obviously not as we both know the hymn has to be interpreted in light of other hymns!

regarding the verses of Holy Quran that you posted, they all come from Surat al Tauba which is the 9. chapter of the Quran.

If you see the beginning of this chapter you will see the context, as it is talking about the pagans that broke a peace agreement with Prophet Muhammad when they killed his men during peaceful times. The verse makes it clear that a war had broken out, and it is an act of self defence.

there is nothing wrong with defending yourself. If a military commander in iraq during an operation said "kill the iraqis" then it would sound normal as it is understood that the iraqis mentioned are the enemies, and not civilians. but of Tony Blair said this infront of a congretion of students in Uk, it would suddenly become a general statement concerning the killing of all iraqis, - babies, women, chldren etc..

you see the difference? the verses are dealing with warfare only.

taqiya means to lie in order to save ones life. muslims are allowed to hide their religion if it can save their lives.

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amardeep, your comments are in normal letters and my replies in bold.

There is nothing wrong with accepting Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet in the line of Abraham. Guru Gobind Singh has put "Muhammad" at the end of the lists of prophets and divine Guides in his Bachitar Natak,- maybe stating that he actually is the last prophet. The Gurus were not prophets, and never claimed to be.

I never gave any refrence from hadiths, as I know muslims considers only quran as world of God. Similarly, I don't take Dasm Granth as my Guru. My Guru is SGGS only. Let us suppose for a moment you are right. Then what was all the fuss about? Why he sacrificed his father, mother, four sons? So please don't quote Dasam Granth. If you want to give quotes from Dasam Granth, then would you allow me give quotes from hadiths too. It will be messy.

regarding your verses it is very important always to see the context of a verse before trying to interpret them. i knew that you would pull out surat al tauba so le me clear it for you, but first show you the danger of taking verses out of context:

In Gurbani we can read the following by Guru Angad Mahraj:

Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.

Page 89, Line 2

Imagine a christian/muslim use this verse to proove that Sikhs are militant extremists with hatred towards non-believers.. would you find this fair? obviously not as we both know the hymn has to be interpreted in light of other hymns!

Read it again, Guru Sahib are not telling sikhs to cut off heads of non sikhs or atheists. He is talking to reader of bani that your (reader's) head does not bow to Lord, it should be thrown away or chopped off ( Dar means throw away or 'useless stuff to be thrown away'). Another thing is SGGS is stating it in love of Lord. On the other hand, suras are showing hatred for non-believers.

regarding the verses of Holy Quran that you posted, they all come from Surat al Tauba which is the 9. chapter of the Quran.

If you see the beginning of this chapter you will see the context, as it is talking about the pagans that broke a peace agreement with Prophet Muhammad when they killed his men during peaceful times. The verse makes it clear that a war had broken out, and it is an act of self defence.

If you say Quran is final and timeless message from God, why talking about contexts. I am not saying Quran is all bad There are lot of good things. Particularly during initial years of its writing. If these suras are being taken out of context, how do you know in rest of the Quran, what is in context and what is out of context?

there is nothing wrong with defending yourself. If a military commander in iraq during an operation said "kill the iraqis" then it would sound normal as it is understood that the iraqis mentioned are the enemies, and not civilians. but of Tony Blair said this infront of a congretion of students in Uk, it would suddenly become a general statement concerning the killing of all iraqis, - babies, women, chldren etc..

But as per you Mohamad is a last prophet from God, not some US military commander. I am talking about Almighty God, who is sole creator of worlds, living being, plantations, you, me and everything. Who is timeless? And he sends his last message through an Arab fighting tribal wars? I don't think these instructions to kill enemy would be message from Almighty. Even if we take these suras in context, why God was taking sides in Arabic tribal wars? Charaterwise I don't think God has any reason to favour Mohamad.

As per Hukam, not even an atom can move without Him, then why he has to instruct Mohamad to kill his enemies or tell a lie in case he felt threatened? I am aware people born in muslim families or who are listening to too much islamic propaganda, are convinced with their eyes closed that quran is word of God. They present all the arguments, use all their brainpower to invent new theories to prove it, but assuming right from the start that Quran is word from God. But a fellow sikh on sikhforum defending islam and mohamad with his eyes closed, it hurts.

taqiya means to lie in order to save ones life. muslims are allowed to hide their religion if it can save their lives.

It is also a free license from Allah to lie, deceive, manipulate for getting new converts.

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Similarly, I don't take Dasm Granth as my Guru. My Guru is SGGS only. Let us suppose for a moment you are right. Then what was all the fuss about? Why he sacrificed his father, mother, four sons? So please don't quote Dasam Granth. If you want to give quotes from Dasam Granth, then would you allow me give quotes from hadiths too. It will be messy.

Even though Dasam is not our Guru, it is still Gurbani, the Word of God,- and should be treated with all respect and taken into consideration when interpreting Sikh philosophy. Ramanand came after Prophet Muhammad in world history, but still we see that Maharaj put "Muhammad" at the end. If there are any hints or anything here i dont know, but it is sure worth mentioning.

Read it again

i would advise you, others as well as myself always to do the same thing when reading something in holy scriptures which we find puzzling.

instead of concluding things with our minimal knowledge, one should always read other verses, interpretations from scholars etc to find the real meaning.

If you say Quran is final and timeless message from God, why talking about contexts. I am not saying Quran is all bad There are lot of good things. Particularly during initial years of its writing. If these suras are being taken out of context, how do you know in rest of the Quran, what is in context and what is out of context?

Religion and faith are not black and white matters. It is not as simple as people might think. Even Gurbani has to be interpreted, why do you think we have Katha? If Gurbani is to be taken literally, why has Guru Hargobind given 14 commands for the person who gives katha?

If you read the janam sakhis you will see that the context of some shabads are given, which then gives the shabad a complete new meaning when taken into consideration.

the next i will answer line by line:

But as per you Mohamad is a last prophet from God, not some US military commander. I am talking about Almighty God, who is sole creator of worlds, living being, plantations, you, me and everything. Who is timeless? And he sends his last message through an Arab fighting tribal wars?

If you read history of Islam you will see that Prophet Muhammad starting out peacefull, but then when the Qurash tribes started to persecute the muslims they started fighting back. Same thing happened when Guru Har Gobind Sahib fought back against Mughal opression.

I don't think these instructions to kill enemy would be message from Almighty. Even if we take these suras in context, why God was taking sides in Arabic tribal wars?

What is wrong with killing your opressor and enemy?

If you read the Zafarnamah of Maharaj you will notice him writing that God helped him out of Chamkaur without help, maybe you should ask yourself why God would take side in indian tribal wars?

Charaterwise I don't think God has any reason to favour Mohamad.

well brother, it does not really matter what you think. Haumei is a bad thing, you are a student of life, so arrange your mind according to religion, instead of arranging religion according to your mind.

Muhammad was a prophet of God as stated in the writings of the Gurus, so that is why God favoured Muhammad in those wars, if you dont understand it, maybe you should try to read more in order to understand.

hope i did not offend you on this one.

As per Hukam, not even an atom can move without Him, then why he has to instruct Mohamad to kill his enemies or tell a lie in case he felt threatened?

God is telling Muhammad to fight back, we see the same thing in the letter of Guru Arjan Dev ji his son when he said you must prepare for warfare as the mughals are not favours of diplomacy.

I am aware people born in muslim families or who are listening to too much islamic propaganda, are convinced with their eyes closed that quran is word of God. They present all the arguments, use all their brainpower to invent new theories to prove it, but assuming right from the start that Quran is word from God. But a fellow sikh on sikhforum defending islam and mohamad with his eyes closed, it hurts.

im sorry if i have hurted your feelings, but i think its time we as sikhs stop bashing other religions and their respective founders as this will only lead to great disasters. if you want to know more about Islam, then read what muslims have written instead of what anti-muslim webpages have to say. They are blinded by their hatred.

The Quran is the word of God, and Gurbani says we should not call it false -period.

It is also a free license from Allah to lie, deceive, manipulate for getting new converts.

what are you basing this upon?

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amardeep, i am sikh (learner) like you. If you are a sikh, you should question before put your faith blindly into it. If you ask hindus about character of Krishna (he lied, he raped, he decieved as per hindu scriptures). Still they will say it was his Leela. Similarly if you ask muslims, they will start talking about contexts. Recently one of my cousin asked me why Guru Gobind Singh had more than one wife. You must have heard about a sakhi where Guru Gobind Singh moved his spear a little to pay respect to a Samadh and sikhs objected to it. I am not bashing Islam. But you should learn about truth. Don't say quran is word of God if your muslim friends convinced you. I am grateful to this discussion because I have to read Dasam Granth to find answers.Following is mention of Mohamad in Dasam Granth.

Page 136-137

Mahaadoon tab Prabh upraajaa|| Arab des ko koono raajaa||26||

Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

Tin bhoo ei panth upraajaa|| Ling binaa koone sabh raajaa||

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

Sabh te apnaa naam(u) japaayo|| Sat(i) naam kaahoon na dri?aayo||27||

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

Sabh apniapniurjhaanaa|| Paarbhaanaa kaahoo na pachhaanaa||

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

Tap saadhat Har(i) moh(i) bulaayo|| Im kah(i) kai eh lok pathaayo||28||

When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28.

Mai apnaa sut tohe nivaajaa|| Panth prachur karbe kauh saajaa||

I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth).

Jaah(i) tahaan tai dharam(u) chalaae|| Kabudh(i) karan te lok hataae||29||

“You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions”.29.

I don't know about Dasam Granth's writings' authenticity, but I am posting just because you mentioned it. Here are some more quotes from Dasam Granth.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥

Mahaadoon kete prithoo maanjh hooe|| Samai aapanoo aapanoo ant mooe||27||

Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27.

ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਯਤ ਹੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਨ ਭੀਜਤ ਲਾਂਡ ਕਟਾਏ ॥੧੦੦॥

Prit(i) kare Prabh(u) paayat hai kripaal na bhoojat laan? kataae||100||

God can only be realized with LOVE, He is not pleased by circumcision.100.

Your said

f you read history of Islam you will see that Prophet Muhammad starting out peacefull, but then when the Qurash tribes started to persecute the muslims they started fighting back

When Islam converted half of india with sword, do you think they ware still fighting back? When Qasim took over Sindh and sent his two daughters to Khalifah, was he still fighting back? There are more, later.

You said

If you read the Zafarnamah of Maharaj you will notice him writing that God helped him out of Chamkaur without help, maybe you should ask yourself why God would take side in indian tribal wars?

Guruji also lost his two sons in battle. You can`t compare Tenth Master and Mohamad. Tenth Master accepted His will even after losing so many family members. That is His kudrat (nature). Lord was not taking sides. Gurmat does not believe in two entities, God and Satan. All is His kudrat and His only. Why we should ask Lord break his rules? Just pray him to give strength to live in his Will.

You said

Haumei is a bad thing, you are a student of life, so arrange your mind according to religion, instead of arranging religion according to your mind.

That is the reason why you think quran is word of God. You are first assuming that quran is His word and then arranging your mind accordingly. You are a sikh, not some zombie like them. You should be asking questions and then decide.

Muhammad was a prophet of God as stated in the writings of the Gurus, so that is why God favoured Muhammad in those wars, if you dont understand it, maybe you should try to read more in order to understand.

SGGS never says that Mohamad is a prophet of God. If you says God favoured Mohamad, why God didn't favoured him from day one? Why he had to run from Mecca? If American are kicking iraqis' a** in Iraq, that means Lord is favouring them? No!!.

That is how He works (in mysterious ways).

God is telling Muhammad to fight back, we see the same thing in the letter of Guru Arjan Dev ji his son when he said you must prepare for warfare as the mughals are not favours of diplomacy.

Difference is here father is telling son to fight back oppression. That is as per Sikhi. On the other hand God is speaking to Mohamad to slay his enemies (pagans specifically). We are totall ignoring other details such as how to distribute war booty including women etc.

im sorry if i have hurted your feelings, but i think its time we as sikhs stop bashing other religions and their respective founders as this will only lead to great disasters

Guru Nanak never hesitated to say truth. I am not saying it to bash Islam. I just want fellow sikh to take a look at another view before accepting quran as word of Allah.

They are blinded by their hatred

Go to any mosque in muslim world and see for yourself who is blinded by hatred. I know it is reaction to western world`s policies, but their religion sanctioned it and they always start it. Look at history for jihad,9-11 and more.

I may be wrong, but convince me. Don`t forget to give quotes from SGGS.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

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Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

first of all i would like to say that i am glad that you are openminded and willing to listen. The problems of sikh youth today, is that they have already made an opinion on a matter before doing research and khoj on subjects, which makes them arrogant. I am glad that you are willing to listen to what i have to say with an open heart.

you quoted the bachitar natak passage of Dasam Granth mentioning "Muhammad" and as you have seen yourself, it is not exactly putting him in the most positive light.

One of the things i have noticed in reading the Bani of Dasme Patshah is that, in most of the controversial texts he has written, be always give the readers some hints into its true meaning, showing us that we are not supposed to take it literaly.

an example for instance is Maharajs description of his alleged "previous life" where he meditated on hemkunt mountain and did yoga where God told him his mission in his next life. Dalip Singh author of a book on Maharajs lfe has analysed this text and come to the conclusion that Maharaj is really talking about how he, in the womb of Mata Gujri, was in deeo simran trance when God spoke to him. What Dalip Singh is using here as argument, is a line where Maharaj says something like "Where X attained yog" when refering to the mountain.

Dalip Singh checked some hindu scriptures on this X guy, and did some research on his life, and he came to the conclusion that this X guy did yoga while having intercourse with his wife, so the place of Guru Gobind Singh being approached by God is not hemkunt mountain, but rather the womb of Mata Gujri.

the hint here was the line "where x attained Yog" and if we look at the bachitar natak text we should also try to look for hints on whether this text is to be taken literally.

first of all the text mentions Ramanand who was one of the bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib. Why would Guru Gobind Singh do nindya of one of the bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib?

second, as you have seen,- Guru Maharaj uses the word Mahadin and not Muhammad. Mahadin is not a name of Prophet Muhammad and we clearly see in the Zafarnamah that Guru Gobind SIngh uses the name Muhammad aswell as Bhai Gurdass vaara where Muhammad is mentione by name, which means that Mahadoon is NOT muhammad.

these two hints may imply that we are dealing with a play here(Bichatar natak literealy means wonderous play) and Guru Maharaj is here describing the prophets and avatars the way their followers depict them.

It is not the prophets being criticed, but rather the followers of these prophets as they have all gone astray.

there are simply to many historical errors in the text on Muhammad which implies that it can NOT be taken literally.

why would Guru Gobind Singh even do nindya in the first place? Aurangzeb killed his father and 4 sons, and still Maharajs talks to him politely in the Zafarnamah.

Gurbani says:

Do not call the Quran and vedas false, false are those who do not contemplate them

so how can we say these books are false and not the word of God?

ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਯਤ ਹੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਨ ਭੀਜਤ ਲਾਂਡ ਕਟਾਏ ॥੧੦੦॥

Prit(i) kare Prabh(u) paayat hai kripaal na bhoojat laan? kataae||100||

God can only be realized with LOVE, He is not pleased by circumcision.100.

i think this is talking about prem bhagat, devotional worship as being the way to attain the lord, compared to hypocrites (like myself) that are "pure on the outside, and dirty on the inside" love is an internal thing, while circumcision is an external outer thing. I think Maharaj is saying that you will get no where by practising rituals alone.

i could be wrong though

When Islam converted half of india with sword, do you think they ware still fighting back? When Qasim took over Sindh and sent his two daughters to Khalifah, was he still fighting back? There are more, later.

do not judge a religion by the acts of its followers. Sikhs today are cought up in rituals, caste pride and slander, but this does not mean that this is the teaching that the Gurus gave us.

That is the reason why you think quran is word of God. You are first assuming that quran is His word and then arranging your mind accordingly. You are a sikh, not some zombie like them. You should be asking questions and then decide.

you are right indeed, it is always good to ask questions instead of having blind faith. but personally, my conviction on the Quran being the word of God, is based on my research in sikh philosophy, and not because some mullah told me so :)

SGGS never says that Mohamad is a prophet of God.

Gurbani in its hymns adressed to muslim tells them to follow their prophet and book. Why would Gurbani tell them to do this, if both are false? If Muhammad was so bad, why would the Gurus tell muslims to follow him correctly? and if Islam is false, then why did'n the Gurus try to actively convert people into Sikhism? if they saw people lost in darkness, why did'n they pull them out of it completely ?

Gurbani says:

One(a muslim) who realizes the Prophet attains heaven. Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, does not cast him into hell.

Page 1084, Line 7

and

How can he escape from falling into hell, when he does not remember the Prophet(rasul)?

Page 319, Line 19

Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;

Page 1083, Line 17

if Islam was wrong, would'n the Gurus be the first ones to say "leave this religion as soon as posible "?

If you says God favoured Mohamad, why God didn't favoured him from day one? Why he had to run from Mecca?

so are you saying that God hated Prophet Muhammad because he went through these persecutions and trials?

Difference is here father is telling son to fight back oppression. That is as per Sikhi. On the other hand God is speaking to Mohamad to slay his enemies (pagans specifically).

God saying or the Guru saying, there is no difference between the two.

We are totall ignoring other details such as how to distribute war booty including women etc.

please do not compare religious history with standards and ethics of today. Please do some reading on the society back then when you hear these kinds of things, before concluding anything. Back then when two villages would wage war against one another, it was normal to kill all men in that tribe, which would leave the women as widows. Women back then did not work and were dependent on their husbands, brothers or fathers. now imagine if these had been killed during the war. now the women were all alone with their children in a village that had been destroyed.

what Prophet Muhammad then allowed was for these women to be maids of muslims so that they would have a place to live and survive, insteading diying alone in the desert with their children. if you read the Quran it says that they should be given salary, treated with respect and set free when they are are able to support themselves.

but again, this is another point as you yourself said.

Gurbani on Islam/Prophet Muhammad:

Dasam Granth:

Page 98, Line 9

Thou hast also created the directions, the indivcations, the earth and the sky. Thou hast also related the four Vedas, the Quran and the Puranas.24.

The Virtuous One gives justice to all. Nothing is hidden from

Him. He is the prophet of the Book(quran) (Nabi al kitab means prophet of the book)

-Zafarnamah

Bhai Gurdass:

Vaar 1 Pauri 20

When varied sects got prevalent, then Muhammad, the beloved of God was born.(it then continues to mention all the bad things that happend after he passed away)

He has created many a dear personality such as Vedavyas and Muhammad dear to the Vedas and the Katebas respectively.

Vaar 1 Pauri 4 Line 7 Creation

and this one says that muslims have reached highest state of spirituality, become one with God:

Many are there who give exposition to the Muslim code of conduct (shariat) and many go on debating on the basis of tariqat, the methods of spiritual purification.

Myriad people have become famous by reaching the last stage of knowledge, the marfati and many in His divine Will have merged into the haqiqat, the truth.

Vaar 8 Pauri 8 Line 1 Islam

i am glad we are having this discussion on Islam and the stance on Sikhism regarding other religions and traditions.

i personally do not think the Gurus considered Krishna, Muhammad, Jesus and others to have been evil, corrupt messengers.

to read more on the issue of Mahadon, please read the following:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...ghlight=mahadin

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...17&start=15

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amardeep, thanks for links. I am new to these `forums`. Most of the things I wanted to say were said by `BikramjiSingh`. You can`t compare life of Mohamad and Tenth Master. I must have to answer your concern about SGGS before leaving (No more Dasam Granth please)

Your said

How can he escape from falling into hell, when he does not remember the Prophet(rasul)?

Page 319, Line 19

Rasul here is used for guru as Guru saheb must be talking to a muslim. If Guru Saheb wanted to say Mohamad , he would have said it.

Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;

Page 1083, Line 17

Here are the full meaning of shabad from Granth Darpan,

ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਦਿਲ ਮਾਹਿ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ ਦਸ ਅਉਰਾਤ ਰਖਹੁ ਬਦ ਰਾਹੀ ॥ ਪੰਚ ਮਰਦ ਸਿਦਕਿ ਲੇ ਬਾਧਹੁ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਕਬੂਲ ਪਰਾ ॥੪॥

ਹੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਯਾਦ ਦੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹੁ-ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕੁਰਾਨ, ਹੈ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਤੇਬਾਂ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ। ਹੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਆਪਣੇ ਦਸ ਹੀ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਭੈੜੇ ਰਸਤੇ ਤੋਂ ਰੋਕ ਰੱਖ। ਸਿਦਕ ਦੀ ਮਦਦ ਨਾਲ ਪੰਜ ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਰੱਖ। ਸੰਤੋਖ ਦੇ ਖ਼ੈਰ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਤੂੰ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਹਿਂਗਾ।੪।

If Gurus had wanted to acknowledge Quran and Islam in full, they would have said it specifically. You would not have to find a sentence out of 1430 pages that way. Truth is Gurus never wanted it. Recently I heard an argument from one of Dera Sacha Sauda guy that word `Sirsa`is mentioned in Gurbani and it is prophecy by Guru Sahib. Gurujis wrote whole message in easiest possible language and I don`t see why they had to hide it.

Bhul chuk Maaf.

Lal singh

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You can not reject the bani of Dasme Patshah, that is like rejecting Gurbani. The Dasam Granth itself says that it is the word of God, why do you want to reject the word of God given through Guru Gobind Singhs holy mouth?

at amrit sanchar you read 3 banis from the Dasam Granth, so why do you think that it is inferiior to the Guru Granth? Guru Granth Sahib alone is not sufficient my friend im sorry to say. it does not mention anything about the khalsa, it does not mention the names of the 10 Gurus nor does it mention anything about the martial aspect of religion.

If Gurus had wanted to acknowledge Quran and Islam in full, they would have said it specifically. You would not have to find a sentence out of 1430 pages that way. Truth is Gurus never wanted it. Recently I heard an argument from one of Dera Sacha Sauda guy that word `Sirsa`is mentioned in Gurbani and it is prophecy by Guru Sahib. Gurujis wrote whole message in easiest possible language and I don`t see why they had to hide it.

and they did. "Do not call the Vedas and Quran false, false are those who do not reflect upon them".

imagine if you had a friend that considered Sikhi to be an evil false and corrupt religion.. with you still maintain this friendship ? i guess not, so what makes you think that men like Mian Mir, Dara Shikoh, Bhai Mardana, Pir Budhu Shah, Pir Bhikhan Shah, Muhammad khan and others would have made friendship with the Gurus?

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You said

but if you truly believe that the Gurus considered Islam to be a corrupt and false religion, please do proove it from Gurbani. then we'll debate it from there.

I am not saying Guruji considred Islam as false religion, but neither Gurus acknowledged it. Here are some shabads from SGGS.

Pg 466 (Burial)

ਮਿਟੀ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਕੀ ਪੇੜੈ ਪਈ ਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆਰ ॥

The clay of the Muslim's grave becomes clay for the potter's wheel.

ਘੜਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਇਟਾ ਕੀਆ ਜਲਦੀ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥

Pots and bricks are fashioned from it, and it cries out as it burns.

ਜਲਿ ਜਲਿ ਰੋਵੈ ਬਪੁੜੀ ਝੜਿ ਝੜਿ ਪਵਹਿ ਅੰਗਿਆਰ ॥

The poor clay burns, burns and weeps, as the fiery coals fall upon it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੨॥

O Nanak, the Creator created the creation; the Creator Lord alone knows. ||2||

Pg 477 (Sunnat)

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥

Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||

Pg 1136 (Fasting and Pilgrimage)

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:

ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥

I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||

ਏਕੁ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥

The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

He administers justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥

I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.

ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥

I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||

ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥

I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥

I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

More later.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Laal Singh

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first shabad on burial:

What is Guru Maharaj stating here? That people should'n bury dead corpses because they are spread all over? Are you familiar with the Quran verse "Dont they think We are able to collect their bones once again?"

The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses, it has to do with other deep issues of worship and people thinking that they should worship graves etc because they assume the dead men are still down there.

the next on sunnat:

Back then it was normal to circumsice people as an act of commitment to Islam, but the invaders started to do it by force, so kabeer is saying that you do not become muslim by outer apperance only. and then goes on to say "what books have you read this in" because Quran does not sanctify external worship alone, but also internal..

these hymns are talking about false worship and they are not plots against Islam. SUkhmani sahib and anand sahib also talks abot these issues of outer rituals without inner worshup are useless.

the third says that we are not muslims nor hindues.. i've never said that the Gurus were muslims nor hindues.

still i do not see where Guru says that Islam is wrong or Muhammad is. Muslims have another way of practice different fro ours, but this does not mean that what they are doing is wrong as such..

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really sick of all this, now we have another person with a sikh name trying to debate here. i dont know how many names or how many brothers javanmard has.

Listen amardeep, we got no problem with you, believe what you want and do what you want, why are you coming here and trying to make others believe what you think is right.

but i must say that sikhi is such a universal faith that everyone wants to merge it into their own faith ! lol

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WB, Sikhi in relation to Islam and Hinduism (in their broad sense), has always and most likely will always be discussed.

Bahadur Ali and his chelai have moved on, so not need to create conspiracy theories.

If you have anything constructive to add to Amardeeps points then please do, otherwise stop phering your restless karchhi.

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amardeep you said (Bold letters)

What is Guru Maharaj stating here? That people should'n bury dead corpses because they are spread all over? Are you familiar with the Quran verse "Dont they think We are able to collect their bones once again?"

The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses, it has to do with other deep issues of worship and people thinking that they should worship graves etc because they assume the dead men are still down there.

I don't think it can be said better and clearer than Guruji said it. Guru Saheb specifically used the word 'musalmaan' here. Musalmaans give importance to their body after death hoping for Day of Resurrection. History has it even Aurangzeb tried to influence Gurus to change it (Read story of baba ram rai). For a sikh body after death is just ashes, nothing more. Importance is given to soul and your deeds while alive.

The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses

Yes, nothing is wrong in burying the body (it is just ashes), but don't hope for it to rise up any day. Same can be seen in Baba Farid's saloks I am reposting here.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥

Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਜੁਗ ਵਾਪਰੇ ਇਕਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੬੭॥

Countless ages will pass, and you will still be lying on one side. ||67||

That's exactly what Master is trying to say.There is no place in Gurmat for `Day of Resurrection`and `Mohamad being last messenger of God`. It is not muslim bashing as you commented earlier. We are discussing place of Islamic beliefs in Sikhsim.

Back then it was normal to circumsice people as an act of commitment to Islam, but the invaders started to do it by force, so kabeer is saying that you do not become muslim by outer apperance only. and then goes on to say "what books have you read this in" because Quran does not sanctify external worship alone, but also internal..

What is this practice (sunnat) for body pleasure doing in God's religion? If you want to be a good muslim, sikhism offers better alternatives here without cutting your body,

ਪੰਨਾ 140, ਸਤਰ 18

ਸਰਮ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਰੋਜਾ ਹੋਹੁ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ॥

Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.

ਤਸਬੀ ਯਾਦਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਸ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਬੰਧਾਨਿ ਬਰਾ ॥੭॥

Let your meditation beads be the subjugation of the ten senses. Let good conduct and self-restraint be your circumcision. ||7||

Muslims have another way of practice different fro ours, but this does not mean that what they are doing is wrong as such..

In all the three shabads, we are talking about `muslim practises' and SGGS's view on these practices.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Laal singh

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Musalmaans give importance to their body after death hoping for Day of Resurrection. For a sikh body after death is just ashes, nothing more. Importance is given to soul and your deeds while alive.

yeah and so what if they give importance to the body, while we give importance to the soul? We give importance to banis while they give importance to namaz.. is there anything wrong in that? we just have a different and deeper mindset when it comes to issue of body/soul, but what makes you think that they are wrong?

In all the three shabads, we are talking about `muslim practises' and SGGS's view on these practices.

Or maybe Guru Maharaj is esotericin the exoteric aspects of Islam in order to help them grow spiritually? Maybe maharaj is helping them move to the second level of religion?

That's exactly what Master is trying to say.There is no place in Gurmat for `Day of Resurrection`and `Mohamad being last messenger of God`. It is not muslim bashing as you commented earlier.

is there room for "Guru Gobind Singh being the last human Guru then" ? if so, then why is there no room for Muhamad as the last messenger of the abrahamic line of prophets?

again, im not sure what your view is, so lets go down to basics:

Do you think the Gurus regarded Islam as a false religion?

do you belive Muhammad was a prophet of God?

Do you belive in the Quran as a book from God?

if yes, do you belive the present form of the Quran is the one sent down from God, or do you belive that it has been alterede and rewritten throughout history..

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Laal Singh wrote:

"If you ask hindus about character of Krishna (he lied, he raped, he decieved as per hindu scriptures). Still they will say it was his Leela"

Please could you show where Krishna "raped" anyone and what you understand by the term "Leela"?

"Similarly if you ask muslims, they will start talking about contexts. Recently one of my cousin asked me why Guru Gobind Singh had more than one wife"

What is wrong with 'contexts'? Your posts do not appear to make your issue with taking things into context clear?

Also, what is the problem with Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Har Rai and Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee have more than one wife?

"You must have heard about a sakhi where Guru Gobind Singh moved his spear a little to pay respect to a Samadh and sikhs objected to it. I am not bashing Islam. But you should learn about truth"

Laal Singh, this Sakhi aimed to assess blind faith and not have any objection to Islam. Early Khalsa rehitnamas clearly show that Sikhs are not to attach themselves to Graves and Samadhs, but taking the whole thing out of context was exactly why numerous Sikhs from villages in Punjab during the Singh Sabha heydays smashed numerous Samadhs of various Shaheeds to which even Bhai Sahib Vir Singh Jee had to object as wreckless activity.

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"but taking the whole thing out of context was exactly why numerous Sikhs from villages in Punjab during the Singh Sabha heydays smashed numerous Samadhs of various Shaheeds to which even Bhai Sahib Vir Singh Jee had to object as wreckless activity.

Veer ji could you give me a reference for this please.

Cheers.

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amardeep said in bold

yeah and so what if they give importance to the body, while we give importance to the soul?

I already posted salok from asa di var telling why they are wrong in hoping bodies will gather on judgement day?

We give importance to banis while they give importance to namaz.. is there anything wrong in that?

When did I say praying to Lord is wrong?

Or maybe Guru Maharaj is esotericin the exoteric aspects of Islam in order to help them grow spiritually? Maybe maharaj is helping them move to the second level of religion?

Sikhism is not a sect of any other religion.

is there room for "Guru Gobind Singh being the last human Guru then" ? if so, then why is there no room for Muhamad as the last messenger of the abrahamic line of prophets?

Guru Gobind Singh was tenth master and he gave gurgadi to SGGS. How can we compare mohamad to tenth master?

Do you think the Gurus regarded Islam as a false religion?

As per my little knowledge they never said islam is true or false religion literally. But also there is no mention of many other religions and cults. So why we should accept all of them as true? Only mention of islam in SGGS is the condemnation of islamic practices.

do you belive Muhammad was a prophet of God?

I don't believe Mohamad was a prophet. There is not mention of Mohamad in SGGS. If SGGS doesn't say anything about Mohamad, why we should believe him as a prophet.

Do you belive in the Quran as a book from God?

if yes, do you belive the present form of the Quran is the one sent down from God, or do you belive that it has been alterede and rewritten throughout history..

Lord does't have to send messages through flying angels.

ਸਮਝੈ ਸੂਝੈ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ॥

If one understands, realizes and comprehends what he reads and studies, in the end he shall realize that the True Lord dwells deep within his nucleus.

If you or muslims believe quran as last and complete message from Him, let them.I don't.

That doesn't mean I disrespect muslims friends. Some of them I have seen are living a life even more pious than Mohamad.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Laal singh

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Niranjana said in bold letters

Please could you show where Krishna "raped" anyone and what you understand by the term "Leela"?

Do you really want me post this erotic story? I will just give hint that as krishna has to make night 6 months long to stay long with that lady.

There is punjabi saying ,"hum karen to paap,krishan kare to leela". Meaning when Krishna do, it is called his leela (game), but if we do it, it is called sin (it is said sarcastically).

What is wrong with 'contexts'? Your posts do not appear to make your issue with taking things into context clear?

There is nothing wrong about contexts. But it is muslim scholars' biggest excuse for defending quran and everything of questionable nature done by Mohamad. You don't hear word 'context' with Buddha and Jesus's life histories that much.

Also, what is the problem with Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Har Rai and Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee have more than one wife?

Nobody here said we have any problem with Gurujis having more than one wife. What I am saying as a sikh, Guru sahib gave us permission to question. I mentioned Samadh sakhi not for islam but just to prove point that Guruji wanted sikhs to question, not become a zombie like some other religions.

Bhul chuk maaf.

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laalsingh bach ke reh sin is heavy in your palla with these blasphemous remarks! BTW Satguru Gobind Singh Ji makes many references to the Respected PROPHET Muhhamad, in Satgur Dasam Granth Sahib. And if you question Satguru Dasam Granth then a question mark will be blatantly seen over your remarks and scholarly authenticity.

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