CHANGE YOUR LIFE NOW! Can you answer this simple Q?

[double_edge]

I was once told that our Conscience is God speaking to us. Conscience can be called our Aatma, and as no doubt hundreds of people have already quoted on this site "Aatma is Parmatma"

We all know when we're doing the right or wrong thing, because our inner self, our Conscience, our Aatma tells us so. But most of us just choose to ignore that little voice inside of us that says "This is wrong". That voice of reason, i beleive, always points towards the truth.

I know the phsychologists amongst us are gonna open a whole new can of worms by bringing people with mental imbalances into the equation, but im sure even they have a benchmark by which we can guage who is a reasonable person. So i'll cover in advance by saying that the inner voice of any reasonable person, if they choose to hear it, will point towards righteousness and the truth.

I guess what im saying is similar to what Jamuka had to say: Its there within us. we just need to learn to see/hear it. All this talk of subjectivity etc is exactly the sort of thing that clouds it out.

[tSingh]

Interesting point double edge,

Adi Shankaracharya points out through the process of negation what 'we' are not. I'm not sure that the 'voice' of reason, and occasionally morality is our aatma, as we are 'listening' to that voice, which means that 'we' are something other than the voice.

[double_edge]

I agree with u totally jtsingh. If that inner voice is the Aatma/Parmaatma, then everything outside of that, ie that which we perceive as "Ourselves" is the product of our own egos. Once again, the truth is there, external factors such as our Hankar and worldy influences create enough noise to drown that voice out. in order to hear it we need to stop, try to listen through the background noise of the world and our egos and hear what the Aatma/Parmaatma has to say.

I think we're both talking about the same thing but perhaps from slightly different angles. Thats all im gonna say on the subject though, before i start clouding the issue myself lol.

[Sukhi]

ok... as much as i'd like it if i wasn't the one who was gonna get all psychological on u guys... i'm sorry but imma do it...

the conscience isn't really a separate thing... if u really think about it... it's not something concretely different from anything else in your mind, regardless of how different it feels. and why do i say that? because the same brain cells that support your negative thoughts are supporting this good thing we call the conscience...

and another thing is... goin back to talkin bout subjectivity and whatnot... a lot of us think that things are wrong based on what we learn... and culture is what teaches us what we oughta think is right or wrong... and culture is really subjective.... depending on what culture u're a part of, certain things are gonna seem to be good and true while others are gonna be totally taboo... so this is really subjective...

but this isn't to say that absolutes don't exist in the universe... obviously if God exists, then absolutes exist too. but at the same time, are we absolutely sure that the wisest thing would be to rely on something that can deceive us so easily (our mind)?

[tSingh]

hmmmm, it's the chicken and the egg my friend.

Is consciousness caused by the activity of brain cells, or is this neuronal activity the product of consciousness? The biological model has always been crap at this one...how does it explain the hydroencaphlytus kids with a 3mm lining on the inside of the skull for a brain, who have perfect vision and have done degrees? To say consciousness is not separate from the physical matter is not as conclusively supported as neurologists would have you believe!

[Dynamic_Banda]

I would say in the normal human the concious is caused by the mind and hence is a hankar, however when one is able to gain control over the mind through satgurparsad, and so forth thhen it is the conciousness which controls the mind.. this is shakti..

its all to do with the kundalin.. while she sleeps her energy is hankar self identification to all action, and when she awakes then it becomes the true SELF (soul - god) identification of all actions. or somewhere in between depending on how funky a sadh you are

[Sukhi]

Dynamic_Banda... u totally lost me...

but in response to jtSingh... although i can't tell u which one comes first because i myself don't know enough to tell you about it, i do believe that the mind and conscience share the same brain from which they function. thus, the same brain that supports lies is gonna have to support truth as well... how reliable is that?

i just think one should be a lil cautious about the entire my-conscience-is-right notion. although realistically speaking, i don't think you should totally ignore all thoughts or your conscience, the only place where you can be sure you're getting the truth is from God.

[Dynamic_Banda]

why does concious have to be represented physically? Can we not have a physical body, an astral body, and then a soul ?

(my evidance of my above theory)

Physical body -- made from dirt and stuff, when you die it turns to dirt, hence can not contain karam - as karam moves from one life to another,

The Soul -- Well the soul is the joht, its an essence of God and hence is infallalible and can not be stained with karam, so that cant carry karam.

The Astral Body -- The non physical but ethereal representation of your body, in a way your ghost this is what is eternal as when you die it exists and when you get a new life it goes into that life and effects that, so it can carry your karam, however because it is also immortal (unless it merges with the soul in which case you cease to exist and gain mukti) then it is also that which carries truth.. as karam is the truth of the actions you have done. if good actions then good result (truth) and if bad actions then accept the truth that the result is bad, but even though its bad its still true, (You can't do bad and expect good)..

Conclusion..

So hence I believe that the physical brain uses its electrical impulses to command the body, however when the power of the ethereal body comes into play, then the electrical impulses are modified and hence you pay off your karam in this way (this is how your previous karam effect you in this life) so the brain is the physical connection with the ethereal body, etheral body is based on truth and hence when your conciousness speaks it is the etheral body attempting to modify the normal brain impulses for the better. As the physical body has no desire or need to merge with the soul as the physical body must deteriorate and cease to exist, but the concept of immortality is to make your conciousness (that which defines you) immortal and broken from the bond of the physical body..

So the only reason why the etheral body would try to modify the physical is because it wants to purify itself and unite with the soul, hence it is true.. and seperate from the physical brain..

Lol i bet that made no sense.. coz i havn't even read over it.

[Jamuka]

Well done! Excellent answer! I could not have put it better myself, however, how do you find the truth, how do you (Jamuka) know when something is BS and when something it really true?

MI you're giving me too much credit. This may sound really crude to you but I use my gut instinct to determine the difference between what is truth and what is a lie. Then again, it may not be so crude after all. I've read somewhere where when you resort to 'gut instinct, you're basically using your subconcious mind. And if I'm not mistaken, we are 1/10th concious and 9/10 subconcious thus the subconcious mind is far more powerful then the concious mind.

Anyway, this method rarely fails me.

I hope you're not dissapointed with that crude and simplistic answer.

Do you feel there is absolute truth and then non-truth alone? In other words, everything is either absolutely true or absolutely false. OR that there are differing levels of truth?

Dear Jtsingh, do you believe in the truth? Do you think if it exists or is it the imagination of the human mind and there is no such thing?

[tSingh]

Jamuka,

I believe in an absolute truth that cannot be described nor comprehended the lower rational mind, but only experienced. Everything else is relative or partial. However, this ultimate truth pervades everything. I feel the ultimate truth has to be experienced. This truth is nirgun. If you take the nature of fractional truth further, you realise the neccessity of not stereotyping ('cognitive apathy' as psychologists call it). There are no absolutes beyond that One absolute. By breaking everything that is with guna into absolute categories of truth (wrong and right, good and bad, all muslims are like this, all hindus are like that) then you are living plain self-delusion. It is all infinitely complex yet essentially one.

[Jamuka]

I believe in an absolute truth that cannot be described nor comprehended the lower rational mind, but only experienced.

So, how do you know who has a ' lower rational' mind who hasn't? How do you come to this conclusion? How do we decipher if our minds are of lower rational or not? Why do we need a 'higher rational mind' to decide simple truths such as fire will burn and cold weather can cause one to have a cold?

Everything else is relative or partial.

I'm assuming that by your contention that truth is relative and absolute truth can only be realised a higher rational mind? Can you name a person who has this state of conciousness? The Dalai Lama of Tibet or any of our local Sants by any chance?

However, this ultimate truth pervades everything. I feel the ultimate truth has to be experienced. This truth is nirgun. If you take the nature of fractional truth further, you realise the neccessity of not stereotyping ('cognitive apathy' as psychologists call it).

How do you experience this 'ultimate' truth? You believe any form of stereotyping is bad? Ok, here is an example of stereotyping; Jews are very intelligent, Blacks are good in sports and music and the Chianaman has very good Business acumen. Is there any truth to this stereotyping? I know, I know, there are dumb Jews out there, there are Blacks who are good at other thing and there are Chinaman who are not that great Business men but, I am talking about the majority. Is there any truth to the example of the stereotypes I provided?

There are no absolutes beyond that One absolute.

You have contradicted yourself.

By breaking everything that is with guna into absolute categories of truth (wrong and right, good and bad, all muslims are like this, all hindus are like that) then you are living plain self-delusion. It is all infinitely complex yet essentially one.

Ok, I've got a very simple question for you. Do you believe that Adolf Hitler and the ideology of Naziism was

i) Absolutely evil

ii) Relatively evil

iii) A person and and the ideology who was misunderstood

[tSingh]

Jamuka,

You seem to ask a lot of basic questions, that you will readily find answers to in Sri Japuji Sahib.

The first thing you stated;

So, how do you know who has a ' lower rational' mind who hasn't? How do you come to this conclusion? How do we decipher if our minds are of lower rational or not? Why do we need a 'higher rational mind' to decide simple truths such as fire will burn and cold weather can cause one to have a cold?

To which I quote;

'Je (if) ho (has) jaanaa (knowledge) aakhaa (describe) naahi (no) kuhunaa (to say) kathan (account) n (not) jaai (goes)''

Sri Japuji Sahib

The majority of humans have budhi and chit...yet the ineffability of the Supreme Truth cannot be done justice by the inferior mind. As for your fire in the cold analogy, my first questiion for you; which truth would you prefer to experience - the workings of this lesser reality or the experience of that higher reality? Then relative to that Ultimate Truth, the complexities of this reality are lesser...unless you feel that that Ultimate Truth can be comprehended through fully engaging with this lower reality (at which I would smile and honour you, but I get the feeling you don't believe such a thing!).

Whoever mentioned a 'higher rational mind'? To know more about the qualities of those who have experienced this Truth, please read Sri Sukhmani Sahib.

How do you experience this 'ultimate' truth?

I would have thought that was pretty obvious, this being a Sikhi discussion forum.

Ok, here is an example of stereotyping; Jews are very intelligent, Blacks are good in sports and music and the Chianaman has very good Business acumen. Is there any truth to this stereotyping? I know, I know, there are dumb Jews out there, there are Blacks who are good at other thing and there are Chinaman who are not that great Business men but, I am talking about the majority. Is there any truth to the example of the stereotypes I provided?

Thank you, that was exactly what I was talking about. You have stated that those sweeping stereotypes are generalisations and apply to some not all. Therefore, how can they be absolute true? If you believe they are, you are deluding yourself.

You have contradicted yourself.

How?

My third question to you: How do you respond to this line from Gurbani;

'Sahas tav nain nun nain huhi tohi ko, suhus moorati nunaa ek tohi'

Surely you will argue this is a greater contradiction? But what the Guru is saying is essential to this ultimate truth. It can be expressed through a seeming contradiction.

As for evil and Hitler...as Guru ji would state, his actions were due to haumai, hence they were pure ignorance of this Truth.

NOW my fourth question for you Jamuka (and this one's important);

Do you believe in two separate absolute forces of good and evil at play within this world? If so, where does this absolute evil orignate from? From God??

hope this helps

[tSingh]

Now that is just plain rude

I answered all your questions Jamuka politley, but when I ask you a few, you run off somewhere! Even that wahabi bloke stayed longer than you did

And Mission Impossible, we all knew the answer before the question...but pray tell, what was the answer?

[JOYce]

The JTSINGH logistic guy... I agree with the approach

[guv]

The Astral Body -- The non physical but ethereal representation of your body, in a way your ghost this is what is eternal as when you die it exists and when you get a new life it goes into that life and effects that, so it can carry your karam, however because it is also immortal (unless it merges with the soul in which case you cease to exist and gain mukti) then it is also that which carries truth.. as karam is the truth of the actions you have done. if good actions then good result (truth) and if bad actions then accept the truth that the result is bad, but even though its bad its still true, (You can't do bad and expect good)..

Conclusion..

So hence I believe that the physical brain uses its electrical impulses to command the body, however when the power of the ethereal body comes into play, then the electrical impulses are modified and hence you pay off your karam in this way (this is how your previous karam effect you in this life) so the brain is the physical connection with the ethereal body, etheral body is based on truth and hence when your conciousness speaks it is the etheral body attempting to modify the normal brain impulses for the better. As the physical body has no desire or need to merge with the soul as the physical body must deteriorate and cease to exist, but the concept of immortality is to make your conciousness (that which defines you) immortal and broken from the bond of the physical body..

db, i've been thinking a lot about your theory, & there's a couple of things that don't make sense to me...

if the astral body can affect the brains impulses, then it must have some physical component... it cannot be solely non-physical.

the idea that the astral body repays your karma debt through influencing brain activity negates any influences of karma on things outside of your control... eg finding a pot of gold. (it also negates karma debts towards individuals, such as u murder someone in a previous life then they murder u in this life... although it could be argued that the astral body projects this idea into your brain.)

also, a question that i kept asking myself was where does conciousness reside? is it in the physical body, the astral body or the soul? or in a mixture of two or all three of them? or somewhere else?

also, if the astral body influences the physical brain according to the truth of previous actions, what role does the soul play?

those are just a few of the ideas that went through my head... hopefully u (or someone else) could clarify some of them.

Now that is just plain rude

I answered all your questions Jamuka politley, but when I ask you a few, you run off somewhere! Even that wahabi bloke stayed longer than you did

And Mission Impossible, we all knew the answer before the question...but pray tell, what was the answer?

tru say jt... any response jamuka? or mi?... after all u were the one who started this thread. i would really look forward to finding out the point u were trying to make.

[Dynamic_Banda]

wow someone read the post that i wrote.. i feel loved...

alright i will attempt to answer all your questions but first i must go find idiots guide to astral bodies.. (lol i love the idiots guide series.. )

nah i got to go do some stuff but will reply when i get back.. If i get back..

[Dynamic_Banda]

ok here goes..

if the astral body can affect the brains impulses, then it must have some physical component... it cannot be solely non-physical.

The astral body is an energy a force which has no physical value, just like electricity is a form of energy which is used to create light which we can see or kinetic energy in something which causes movement and we can see that too, but the energy itself is invisable it has no physical form. The same with the Astral however it can convert itself into electrical energy.. hence ghost hunters use that electrical current checking machines to find ghost behaviour (watch ghostbusters). In this way the astral can effect the physical using the brain.

the idea that the astral body repays your karma debt through influencing brain activity negates any influences of karma on things outside of your control

The astral body does not repay it.. it stores the accounts of your karmic debts and credit, it also holds your links with those who are karmically bound to you. (friends family enemies etc), it then uses its influences to direct you towards paying those debts off.. this is where free will comes into play the choice to go with the flow or to go against it. abit like when your concious says one thing yet you do another. If you dont pay off the debt that time the astral influence will jsut wait and try again maybe with a larger debt maybe with less depending on your actions.

where does conciousness reside? is it in the physical body, the astral body or the soul? or in a mixture of two or all three of them? or somewhere else?

Theres physical conciousness which is awareness using the 5 senses, then their is a deeper conciousness which is fine tuning the senses so that they become super senses, then a deeper conciousness still which is the conciousness of the mind (astral body), and if you are able to elevate further into conciousness of the soul well then u share the same concious as God, and become GOD concious and hence gain mukti as you are now beyond all physical and non physical attributes.. I would assume lol as obviously i aint been to that level

if the astral body influences the physical brain according to the truth of previous actions, what role does the soul play

The astral body (your ghost) can attach it self to any physical form when it gets the chance hence you get ghosts attached to trees or to stones or to certain objects etc, so to simply have a soul attached to a physical body would not create the ability to live. To exist and live the soul is required its like glue it binds the astral to the body- as the astral wants to unite to the soul, so it needs to lose its karmic weight and identify itself with the soul and hence once it is concious of God within then it can identify God with .. erm out ?? (i mean god outside..you know what i mean the big God)

Erm I hope that helps clear some stuff up,