Evangelism taking worrying proportions in Punjab!!!!!!!

[Guest Javanmard]

Oh when did I say that? So you don't believe that gurbani protects from evil influences?

[sikh princess]

So you believe that a verse from Gurbani can be put in a taveet and used as some kind of talisman to ward off evil?

[Guest Javanmard]

Well. Looks nice around a neck and if its got gurbani in it then good as it reminds me of Maharaj! Do I believe in it? Mmm dunno! I mean I have never seen a ghosts or evil spirit so far: maybe that means it works

More seriously now:

1. I think we all pretty much concluded that until now there is definite proof that Baba Khem SIngh Bedid did said that he was himself 15th Nanak.

2. I hence suggest we discover ways of fighting against Protestant missionaries: far more constructive than discussing the use of taviz!!!

[tSingh]

Regarding the perception of the Bedis and the status they held prior to the Singh Sabha, it is interesting to note that according to oral trdition (common to Udasin and Nihangs) Guru ji is said to have given three gur-gaddis, one to Baba Sri Chand, one to Guru Angad Dev and one to the Bedis. I'm not sure whether this is still their belief - I'd be interested in knowing what Baba Sarabjot Singh Bedi's are on this. Anyone who has access to the Bedis 'Ajuni' magazine (often in Gurdwara libraries) can see the parampra, including the branch leading to the Udasin samprda. Furthermore it seems that the popularity of the Bedis was as much due to Baba Sahib Singh Bedi charismatic personality and roundedness than simple direct descendence. Again, this can be seen in Gyani Ishar Singh Nara's 'Raj Yogi', a modern text which describes the life of Baba Sahib Singh Bedi.

Furthermore, it seems evident that the context of the term 'Guru' has changed over time. Among samprda a 'guru' or 'gurdev' is an assumed requirement for the transmission of tradition and jnaan, and as such was a term that would have had common parlance among Sikhs pre-Tat khalsa. Yet such a Sikh was wholly aware that a gurdev is on a very different qualitative level of status to their Ishtadev, Guru Maharaj. This view can be seen in 18th and 19th century writings such as Bhai Sobha Ram Sewapanthi's 'Gurbilas Baba Sahib Singh Bedi' and Pandit Sher Singh's 'Bir Mrigesh Gurbilas' of Baba Bir Singh, Baba Bhaag Singh, etc and also in the introductions to numerous sewapanthi, nirmala and udasi texts. Yet the term Satguru is held for Guru Maharaj, and it seems that it was the application of this term that aroused initial controversy with the Namdharis (I recall an account of them visiting Sri Anandpur Sahib and the gyanis there protesting against them because of this).

Therefore, for a Bedi to be referred to as a 'guru' or 'gurdev', is not the neccessarily the same as aspiring to be the 15th Nanak. My personal view is that it may have been a distortion of this system that has led to the beliefs of Namdhari and Nirankaris.

[Jamuka]

Hi Singh47 I don't know if this artivle may help but I too believe that the Hindu religion is a myth. Don't you think it's kinda starnge that nowhere is the word 'Hindu' mentioned in any of the Rig Veda, Bhagavad Gita and other 'Hindu' literature? BTW Southern Hinduism (Tamil) is not recognised by the Northerners ie Muniswaran worship, carrying of 'Kavadi'...

Here is the article...

The English Invention of Hinduism

Non-Existence of Hinduism Before 1830

Hinduism did not exist before 1830. It was created by the English colonialsts in the 1830s. This remarkable circumstance is evidenced by the fact that none of the travellers who visited India before English rule used the word `Hindu' or 'Sanatana'. This is amply borne out by the Encyclopedia Britannica, which states :

" The term Hinduism ... [ was ] introduced in about 1830 by British writers. "

-- [ EB 20 `Hinduism ' 519 ]

In other words, the founding father of 'Hinduism' is an Englishman ! Nowhere in the Vedas, Puranas or any other religious text prior to 1830 AD are the terms `Hindu' or `Sanatana Dharma' used. Not a single inscription contains the terms `Hindu' or `Sanatana' prior to the Muslim era. The myth that Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma existed prior to this has been discarded in many theological circles, and the fantasy that Santana Dharma is `One Religion' has been abandoned -

" The term "Hindusthan" was first used by a 12th century AD Afghan dynasty of Muhammad Ghori who dubbed his new subjects "Hindus". Prior to this era, no one in any region of South Asia had ever used these terms to define themselves."

There is no mention of either of these terms in "ancient Brahmanical books (the oldest of which do not predate the 11th century; also the oldest "Brahmanical" temples are all post Buddhist, after 8-9th century A.D.). Ironically, two of the three core concepts of the Poorbia Brahmanist imperialistic program of "Hindu and Hindusthan" are borrowed from post-12th century Muslim (Afghan and Mogul) regimes." --[ Khals ]

In recent years has arisen the movement for a revival of Dravidian religion. Two of the main proponents of this movement have exploded the fallacy of the `Sanatana Dharma' concept invented by a European-Smarta-Brahmin conspiracy as follows -

" We are cognizant of the fact that the term 'Hindu religion' can not be found before the arrival of the Europeans in India. We are also aware of the fact that it was the Europeans who coined the term 'Hindu religion' to denote the Indian religions that were originated in India and followed by the Indians.

Since the term 'Hindu religion' denotes all the religions of India together, it cannot refer to any particular religion. And since the term 'Hindu religion' consists of many religions which have different doctrines and are contrary to each other, there will be leaders for each religion and there cannot be a common leader for all the religions since they are controversial to each other.

For instance, how can there be a common leader for both Buddhism and Saivism, which are contrary to each other. Hence the belief that there is a common leader for Hindu religion is superstitious and displays ignorance. Hence, the statement that 'The Brahmins are the leaders of Hindu religion' exhibits ignorance and deceptive. "

[ Deva ]

Indeed, the Aryan race of Brahmins were never the leaders of any of the religions of Dravidian religion, Kolarian religion, Buddhism or Jainism. They were only the leaders of the 6 orthodox schools of Brahmanism, which includes Vedism and Vaishnavism -

" History reveals that the Europeans coined the term Hindu religion and saw nothing wrong in doing so. "

-- [ Dev ]

Hinduism is hence an invention of the Europeans, nothing more and nothing less. It should more properly be subdivided into the religions of Brahmanism and Shaivism, Shaktism, Tantrism and Saurism.

Greeks and Indian Religions

The Aryans referred to the region now known as 'Punjab' (Persian `Land of 5 Rivers'), as 'Sapta Sindhu'. In Old Achaemenid Persian this became 'Hapta Hindwa', and 'Hindwa' then meant `Inhabitant of the Indus', completely without religious significance. In Greek 'Hindwa' became 'Indoi' (Indian), whence the Latin 'Indus' river and 'India'. The Greeks expanded the meaning of India to include the entire subcontinent. It was never used to denote any religion in Greek or Latin. The Greeks never used the word 'Hindu', nor did the Romans.

Arabs and 42 Indian Religions

In Old Persian `Hindwa' denoted only the 'Region around the Indus River' and not the whole of India. In Pahlavi or Middle Persian this developed into 'Hindustan' (The Land of the Indus) but still denoted only the region around the Indus river. It was later Sanskritised to 'Hindusthan'. This meaning was later distorted to denote 'Land of Hindus'. In recent years the terms 'Dravida Nadu' or 'Dravidistan' and 'Dalitstan' have been coined to denote the regions where Dravidoids and Dalits respectively are a majority. 'Sudra Nadu' or `Sudrastan' has developed as an umbrella term for Dravidistan and Dalitstan. A full one-third of all Negroes in the world inhabit this Sudrastan, and Pan-Negroism has played a considerable role in the spread of this movement.

The Arabs adopted the Old Persian 'Hindwa' as 'Hind' (India) and 'Hindwi' (Indian). Neither of these words were used as applying to any religion; they were purely geographical and national terms. None of the medieval Arab travellers was aware of one single monolithic faith being practiced. In fact, all the Arab travellers referred to the Indians as practicing 42 different religions :

" Ibn Khurdaba has described that in India there are 42 religions. Al Idrisi also observes that 'Among the principal nations of India there are 42 sects. Some recognise the existence of a creator, but not of prophets, while others deny the existence of both. Some acknowledge the intercesory powers of graven stones, and others worship holy stones, on which butter and oil is poured. Some pay adoration to fire, and cast themselves into the flame. Others adore the sun and consider it the creator and director of the world. Some worship trees; others pay adoration to serpents, which they keep in stables, and feed as well as they can. deeming this to be a meritous work. Lastly, there are some who give themselves no trouble about any kind of devotion, and deny everything." ' --[ Arab.p.57 ].

Al Idrisi's description of Indian religions given above presents a clear description of the many different faiths practiced in India. He has accurately described the existence of Sun-worshippers (Rajput Sauras) and Atheists (Carvakas) as separate religions. None of the Arab travellers was aware of there being only one religion in India. This proves that `Sanatana Dharma' did not exist at that time.

Some of the Arab travellers even increased the number of Indian religions to 48:

" The Jamiu-l Hikayat increases the number of religions in India to 48 "--[ Arab.57.n1 ]

An exhaustive treatment of the Indian religions is given later on. To summarize, in the words of the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, " The word [ Hindu ] was never used in Indian literature or scriptures before the advent of Muslims to India " [ ERE.6.699 ], cf. also [ Tirtha.p.vii ]. If at all it was used in a racial sense, " the Muslim rulers used the term 'Hindu' [ correctly `Hindooi' ] to mean Indian non-Muslims only." [ Basic ]

The traveller Qazwini has also described the various different religions prevalent in ancient India, clearly mentioning Brahmanism as a separate religion :

" Qazwini (1203 AD - 1280 AD) says that there are various sects among the people of Hind. Some believe in the creator, but not the propher. They are the Brahmans. There are some who believe in neither. There are some who worship idols, some the moon and some other, fire." --[ Nain.230 ]

Asokan inscriptions also contain the term `brahmana va sramana', indicating a fundamental distinction between the Brahminists, followers of the 6 orthodox schools of Brahmanism, and the Sramanas or `nastika' heretics. Qazwini correctly describes Brahmanism as accepting a creator - God, something which the Sramanas do not do. Qazwini's "there are some who believe in neither" almost definitely refers to these nastiks (Jains, Buddhists, Atheists). Yet another traveller Abul Faaj (988 AD) mentioned the sects of India, and was completely unaware of the existance of `One Religion':

" al-Dinikitiya - These are worshippers of the Sun. They have an idol placed upon a cart supported by 4 horses. They believe that the Sun is the king of the angels deserving worship and adoration. They prosrate themselves before this idol, walk round it with incense, playing the lute and other musical instruments .. " [ Nain.228 ] .

" al-Jandrihkriya " [ Chandra + kranti ] " They are worshippers of the moon. They say that the moon is one of the angels deserving honour and adoration. Their custom is to set up an idol, to represent it, on a carrt drawn by 4 ducks. In the head of this idol is a gem called jandarkit" [ Nain.229 ] [ jandarkit is moonstone, "said to emit moisture when placed in the moonlight, and believed by some to be a congelation of the moon's rays." Nain.229.n3 ] " Anshaniyya " [ Sans. Anasana - fasting ] " those who abstain from food and drink " [ Nain.230 ]

" Bakrantiniya are those who fetter their bodies with iron. Their practice is to shave off hair and beard and not to cover the body except for the private parts. It is not their custom to teach or speak with anyone apart from those of their religion." [ Nain.230 ]

" Kangayatra [ Gangayatra ] " scattered throughout Hind. Their belief is that, if a man commits a grave sin, he must travel to the Ganges [ and ] ... wash [in it]" [Nain.230 ]

" Rahmarniyya [ Raja + Tam. manam = honour, self-respect; rajapimani = supporters of the king ] They say, "God, exalted be He, made them kings. If we are slain in the service of kings, we reach paradise." [ Nain.230 ]

" There is another sect whose practice is to grow long hair." do not drink wine, ... temple on hill called hawran [ Nain.230 ]

Hence, there existed at the time of the Arabs several distinct religions. This is simply because `Hinduism' or `Sanatana Dharma' had not yet been invented by the Europeans. Like many aspects of early Indology, the concept of `Hinduism' was overly simplistic and utterly baseless.

According to Jawaharlal Nehru, the earliest reference to the word 'Hindu' can be traced to a Tantrik book of the eighth century C.E., where the word means a people, and not the followers of a particular religion. The use of the word 'Hindu' in connection with a particular religion is of a very late occurrence [ Nehru, p.74-75 ].

Portuguese and Gentoos

The Portuguese never even used the word 'Hindu' or `Santana' or any of the variants to denote any Indian religion, proving that Hinduism, did not exist as a concept at the time of the Portuguese. Instead, they referred to the `Hindus' as `Gentoos'. Portuguese dictionaries give the following definition of `Gentoo':

Gentio (Hindu, gentile, a heathen, pagan)

+ applied by the Portuguese to the Hindus in contradistinction to the Mouros, or Moors ie. Mohammedans. [ Asia, p.167-168 ]

+ Anglo-Ind. `gentoo', Konk. jintu

Gentilico (`the language of the Hindus')

+ `em gentilico' in the Hindu or vernacular langauge

+ still applied to the Telugu language

The word `Gentoo' still survives in usage, and is applied to the Telugus:

" The word `gentoo' is used at the present time only in Madras of the Telugu-speaking Hindus and their language." --[ Asia, p.168 ]

Duarte Barbosa

As an illustration of the fact that Sanatana Dharma did not exist at the time of the Portuguese, a few quotations from Duarte Barbosa, a Portuguese traveller who visited India, are given. The Indians are always referred to as `Gentoos':

" And before this kingdom of Guzerate fell into the hands of the Moors, a certain race of Gentios whom the Moors called Resbutos dwelt therein."

[ Duarte Barbosa, ed. Dames, Vol. I, p.109 cited in Asia, p.167.n3 ]

" And in this kingdom there is another sort of Gentio whom they call Baneanes."

[ Duarte Barbosa, ed. Dames Vol. I, p.109 in Asia, p.167.n4 ]

Contemporary Documents

Documents from the early modern period also do not mention `Sanatanis'; they only mention `Gentoos':

" The Originall of this Petition (to Charles II) ... is signed by 225 of the principalest inhabitants of this Island, viz.

123: Christians and

84: Gentuis

18: Moores "

-- [ `Anglo-Portuguese Negotiations relating to Bombay 1660-1677' (OUP) by S.A.Khan, p.453 ]

Another term used by Europeans as applying to the followers of Native Indian Religions was `Banian'. " The early European travellers applied the term [ Banian ] to the followers of the Hindu religion generally " [Asia, p.38 ] The term in fact denotes a Jain trader (from vaniyan Sansk. vanij, trader).

Creation of Hinduism after 1830 by the English Colonialists

The Brahmins of India actively collaborated with the English colonialists in their conquest of India. As a result, the English rewarded them by inventing the designation `Leaders of Hinduism' for their loyal servants, their Aryan Brahmin cousins.

Gentoos & Anglo-Indians

The English came to India after the Portuguese, and due to the immense cultural influence of the latter, the English also adopted the word Gentoo as applying to any follower of an Indian religion:

" The first digest of Indian legislation, which was complied under orders of Warren Hastings and published in 1773, has the title `A Code of Gentoo Law'."--[Asia,p.168]

Yule is led to believe that the English form Gentoo did not come into general use till late in the 17th century. [ Asia.168 ]

Nor did the early English travellers use the words `Hindu' or `Sanatani', instead they used the Portuguese word `Gentoo':

" The late scarcity of provisions necessitating us to take some cows from the Jentue inhabitants to supply the fleet... "

-- [ Forrest, Selections, Home Series, Vol. II, p.31 cited in Asia,p.167.n1 ]

" The Gentues , the Portugal Idiom for Gentiles, are the Aborigines, who enjoyed their freedom till the Moors or Scythian Tartars .. undermining them, took advantage of their Civil Commotions."

-- [ Fryer, East India, Hak. Soc. Vol. I, p.81 in Asia, p.167.n1 ]

Thus the concept of `Hindu' or `Sanatani' as applying to a religion did not exist, nor were any of these terms used by the early English colonialists. Hence, even by the time of the early English colonialists `Hinduism' did not exist.

Invention of Hinduism by English Census-Compilers

The English census-compilers were assigned the daunting task of conducting the Indian head-count by the British government. These people were not theologians, and coined the term `Hindu' as a blanket term to encompass several religions. Thus a `Hindu' was defined in the Census as anybody who was not Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or Jain. It was thus an exclusivist term: Hinduism was defined by what it was not, and not by what it was. It is hence entirely unsuitable as a definition. Later the term Sanatana Dharma was invented to deliberately submerge the English creation of Hinduism. In the words of the Babri Masjid archive [ Basic ] :

" Finding it difficult to get the names of the religions of these communities, the British writers gave them the word "Hinduism" to be used as a common name for all of their religions in about 1830." --[ Basic citing EB 20:581]

Indeed, the concept of Hinduism was invented by the English with the ulterior motive of making their loyal servents, the Aryan Brahmins, the rulers of India.

" The Europeans who came to India in 1498 A.D. for the purpose of establishing trade became the rulers of India. History reveals that the Aryan Brahmins were the supporters and assistants for the Europeans to capture the political power of India and enslave the Indians . It is a political strategy to befriend the traitors within a country in order to get its secrets and capture its political power. " -- [ Dev ]

All the invasions of India by foreigners were engineered by the Brahmins. They actively collaborated with the Portuguese, helping them to conquer large parts of India. The offices of the Mughal empire were full of Brahmin conspirators. A full one-third of the British Bengal army was Brahmin. Indeed, the answer to the much-asked question, `Why has Indian history been a series of invasions ?' is `The Brahmins engineered them !' -

" If the history of India is analyzed, it is revealed that the Aryan Brahmins have acted as the traitors through the ages. They also betrayed India to the Europeans. The term Aryans denote the group of people who came to India in different periods without any religion, " --[ Dev ]

In this connection one need only remember that the Brahmin Canakya engineered the Macedonian invasion of India by Alexander the Great. Through his protege Candragupta Maurya, Canakya lured the Greeks deep into the Punjab. With the troops and mercenaries provided by Alexander, Canakya and Candragupta managed to overthrow the indigenous dynasty of Magadha and succeeded in imposing the first totalitarian state the world had ever seen : the Mauryan Empire. A few decades later, the Bactrian Greeks followed up on Canakya the Brahmin's open invitation, and annexed major parts of India.

Ulterior Motives in Creation of Hinduism

The creation of Hinduism, the subsequent formation of Sanatana Dharma and the propagation of these concepts is mainly due to vested interests with the following ulterior motives.

Reward of Brahmin Collaborators - As shown above, the main motive in the English invention of Hinduism was to reward their Aryan Brahmin collaborators with an imagined leadership of all of Hinduism and by extension, all of India. Such were the services rendered to the British crown that not only were the Brahmins made leaders of India at that time, but the whole of Indian history was completely falsified to portray them as the `eternal rulers of all Hindus'.

Dravidianism Suppressed - India obtained Independance from Anglo-Brahmin and Brahmin-Portuguese rule in 1947. However, the new state that arose was merely a neo-Brahminist casteocracy. One of the main `threats' to the integrity of the new Aryan Brahmin-ruled republic was the spectre of Dravidian Nationalism. The Sudroids (Dravidoids and Kolarians) represent the original inhabitants of India, who were later subjugated by the Aryan invaders. They form the overwhelming majority in Southern India, and strong demands existed for a separate Dravidian nation. Ambedkar and many others fought for recognition of the Dravidian Religion as separate from the Hindu religion, but M.K.Gandhi foiled these attempts, and succeeded in temporarily subverting the Dravidians in Hinduism. The British were reluctant to recognise the Dravidian religion, since it would have antagonised their Brahmin collaborators. This is one of the prime motives behind the invention of Hinduism.

Vaishnavite Ambitions - Since the majority of `Hindus' were Brahminist Vaishnavites in any case, it was hoped that Vaishnavism would thus become a synonym for Hinduism, thereby subverting Shavism (Dravidian Religion), Smartism, etc. in one go.

Christian Missionaries - The creation of Hinduism suited the missionaries who did not have to deal with any Indian theological system. Christianity historically made the greatest inroads in `pagan' (ie. religions lacking a developed sustem of theology) regions, while failing in areas where `devoloped' religions like Islam, Confucianism, etc. By creating Hinduism and submerging thereby Vaishnavism, Jainism, Buddhism, Saurism, etc. into `One Great Pagan Religion' they had to deal with `merely another pagan cult'. Hence, `Hinduism' served the interests of the Christian missionaries.

English Imperialism - The creation of Hinduism entailed inclusion of the Negroid-Australoid Aboriginal Races of India as `Hindu'. Thus, English dominion in India was justified by claiming that it represented a pious mission to `civilize the pagan natives'.

Aryanism Suppressed - English colonial rule was justified by the rule of `Whites' over `non-Whites'. Accepting the existence of `Aryans' in India would have meant a nullification of this justification, since a sizeable fraction of India's population would be `white' and would not require `white' Anglo-Saxon rule. The submergence of Indo-Aryans as `Hindus' served to suppress this menace to British rule. The early Arya Samajists realised this attempt to subvert the identitiy of Aryans. and staunchly opposed the use of the word `Hindu'; a move equally opposed by the British. By denying `white' status to Indo-Aryans (a fact since proven by genetics). the English justified rule over `non-whites'.

Rajputism Suppressed - The Rajputs are descendants of the Scythians, Greeks, and other immigrants who entered India just prior to the rise of the Indo-Islamic Caliphate of Delhi. Throughout their history they followed their Solar religions (`saura' cults), independant of any Aryan Vaishnavite Brahmans. Yet the invention of Hinduism served to subvert Saura religion as well.

Smarta Subversion - The creation of Hinduism suited the Smartas (Advaitins) most of all, since their religion was defined in terms of giving equal worship to 5 major gods of India, as well as a whole host of others. It remained a very minor religion in India, having been propagated only by Sankaracharya and being localised mainly in Kerala. The overwhelming majority of Hindus were (and still are) Vaishnavites (more than 75 %). However, the definition of `Hinduism' was essentially Smarta, and by propagating `Hinduism' the Smartas hoped to submerge their old rivals the Vaishnavites.

Noted Sikh author G.S.Khalsa has amply pointed out the manner in which Hinduism was invented :

" The Brahmanists came to power on the Congress elephant by deviously converting the pre-independence political debate and struggle into a communal Hindu-Muslim religious struggle. This was made possible by the master stroke of Mahatama Gandhi - the Hindu nationalist cum holy sadhu who made "Hindus" a 55% majority on paper in the 1920s upon getting the Dalits or "untouchables" (20%) dubbed as "Hindus" by the British. This coup moved the "Hindus" from 35% to a 55% majority in British India. In pre-independence India, Muslims were 25%, Sikhs/Christians/ Buddhists/ tribals/etc. formed the remaining 20%. This action, along with recognition of Congress as the sole political representative of all Indians in national matters, was a payoff by the British colonial authorities to the Brahmanist lead Congress and Gandhi for loyal services rendered to Queen and empire in supporting their WWI war effort; recruiting the "martial" communities (e.g. Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs, Gujars of Saka-origin) of the northwest and Muslims to go fight for the British Empire in Europe/ middle east; subduing, opposing, infiltrating and sabotaging other non-Congress/non-Brahmanist lead political parties and independence movements organized at home (who saw British weakness during the war as an ideal opportunity). The 55% fraudulent "Hindu pile" was little more than a political game of Brahmanist politicians and political parties in Delhi while caste Hindus would not eat/touch/marry/socialize or even worship with their "polluted" Dalits (20% untouchables) in the 1920s. After this "victory on paper", Brahmanist politicians, political parties, and organizations totally communalized pre-independence politics along "Hindu/Muslim" religious lines of "nationhood" to get on the road to empire and Delhi. " --[ Khals ]

Indeed, Encyclopedia Britannica accepts that `Hinduism' is a blanket term covering several religions and does not refer to a single religion :

" Hinduism is both a civilization and a congregation of religions ; it has neither a beginning nor a founder, nor a central authority, hierarchy or organization. Every attempt at a specific definition of Hinduism has prvoed unsatisfactory in one way or antoher." -- [ EB.20 `Hinduism' 519-520 ]

Hinduism is not a revealed religion and, therefore, has neither a founder nor definite teachings or common system of doctrines [ 7 ]. It has no organization, no dogma or accepted creeds. There is no authority with recognized jurisdiction. A man, therefore, could neglect any one of the prescribed duties of his group and still be regarded as a good Hindu.

Invention of Sanatana Dharma by Smartas

Subsequent to the invention of Hinduism the followers of the different Indian religions realised that the word 'Hindu' and 'The Religion of Hinduism' were English inventions. This caused much embarassment, and many Vaishnavites, Shavites etc, declared that they were followers of different religions, which they actually are. Had this process reached its full development, there would have been no problem. However, some Smartas and other vested interests attempted to preserve the superficial unity which the English creation of Hinduism had given. Hence, the English concept of 'Hinduism' was renamed as `Sanatana Dharma' in order to fabricate a Sanskritic name for the concept. The word `Sanatana' was created in sometime in the 19th century as an attempt to replace the foreign word 'Hindu'.

The non-Muslim people of the South Asian subcontinent called Hindu had no precise word for their religions [ Land ]. They were, as they are, divided into thousands of communities and tribes, each having its own religious beliefs, rituals, modes of worship, etc.

The Smarta religion arose "by the 7th century, when the Smartas inistituted their worship of 5 deities, omitting Brahma, he had lost all claims as a superior diety. " [ EB 2.460 ]

" The people called Hindu have nothing common in their religious affairs. 'Hinduism', therefore, cannot give any precise idea as to what it means. Attempts were made to define the term but could not succeed. " --[ Basic ]

To summarise, realising that Hinduism was in fact an English invention; this circumstance becoming widely known and the cause of much satire on `Hinduism' and its English invention, the Brahmin Vaishnavas invented the term `Sanatana Dharma' in order to counter these difficulties :

" Faced with this dilemma, Hindu scholars sometime use the word Sanatan Dharma (eternal religion) and sometime Vedic Dharma (religion of the Veda), etc. for their religion. But as names of their religion, these words are also untenable as they do not imply anything precise for all the people called Hindu." --[ Basic ]

[jsb]

Lallesh, i have a straight question for you.. i know you're jus gonna answer with rudeness like you always do to me, but either way, can you just asnwer this for me....

you are willing to say "i agree with some things that Khem Singh said" but then in other posts, you denounce SGPC and seemingly blindly say they do absolutely NOTHING right..... this is a discrepancy in your argument beacause it shows your bias and character... if someone is in concurrence with your opinion you "dont' agree with everything he said, but at least...".... but once something is against your general or refined opinion "they're eveil doers and will all burn in hell" or what not... can you clarify for me, espcially since SGPC will recognize 11 gurus, but youre willing to credit the theory of someone who claimed HIMSELF to be the 15th!

[Jamuka]

Can anybody here confirm with me if this verse exists in the SGGS? I have seen it being mentioned in other forums where they claimed it is from the SGGS.

He bestowed His Grace on Adam, the father of mankind,

who then lived in paradise for a long time. ||2||

Pale are the faces of those whose hearts are disturbed.

They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil.

[guv]

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalvi...nofHinduism.htm

reference for jamuka's article.

[Guest]

The real problem is that us sikhs are not thinking as one, we're not one, cos of the caste system, we're divied, Divided and ruled over. Why cant all of us see this. I really see sikhi going down now. I hate to say this but Christans seems to have a soft approach and they seem really friendly which they are but we have to assure them that sikhi is our Faith, we must not fight with them. Say MI says Sikhi is 100% compatible with Science, lets use Science as our Kirpan.

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear jsb, please re-read my posts carefully:

1. Baba Khem SIngh Bedi never claimed to be 15th Nanak. jtsingh's posts is actually spot on!

2. I do not agree with everything he did but he did some good in the field of SIkh education and in the publication of Sikh religious material.

3. regarding the SGPC and other groups: it's not my fault if they changed gurbani and made themsleves Ramraie by doing that. something Baba Khem Singh Bedi did NOT do.

4. Where I think Baba Khem Singh Bedi was wrong is in his claim that he was the head of the Sikh Panth

[Singh47]

Baba Khem Singh Bedi claimed to be the Guru of the Sikhs. He made this claim in 1883. At the height of his influence, he had large amounts of followers in the Pothohar and frontier region. This influence was decreased considerably due to the Prachaar done by Singh Sabhias. He and his followers were the modern versions of Dhir Malias and Ram Raias who tried to install a Dhe Dhari Guru in place of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee the one and only SatGuru of the Sikhs.

[Guest Javanmard]

Give me the evidence that he did! Until now I have not seen a single document proving it. If you do I will change my mind about Baba Khem Singh Bedi even though I never was a "fan" of his but just recognised some of the good things he did. Until now I have seen no contemporary evidence and can hence not take your arguments ino account.

[Singh47]

Lalleshwari, I have already given my reference and so has Sikh princess. The rest the other members can decide of what kind of man Baba Khem Singh Bedi was, whether or not he tried to conserve Sikh traditions or not.

[Guest Javanmard]

I am impressed! It took you nearly an hour to post a tautological statement being: I am right because I am right!

You try to prove a point so please give evidence for it.S o far I have not seen any primary source proving your statement. I am not saying that it does not exist! I am just saying that you have not been able to present me the reference to a 19th century document proving your point. Come on ! Baba Khem SIngh's secretary Bhai Avatar Singh Vahiria had published quite a lot but how come he only mentions the 10 Gurus and never mentions Baba Khem SIngh bedi (whom he highly respects) as 15th Nanak?

[Singh47]

Lalleshwari, I can provide references but unfortunately you are narrow minded into thinking that only contemporary sources matter. If that is the case then I guess over 90% of the history books we find in libraries are all false and useless as hardly any of them are of contemporary times.

[sikh princess]

Lalleshvari first you asked for a contemporary source and then a quote from Baba Khem Singh and now something from his secretary. Will any contemporary source do or will you again move the goalposts.

You said that you are not saying that such sources do not exist! So does this mean that you are not sure whether Baba Khem Singh claimed Guruship or not? I thought you read all the available books so am surprised you now claim there might be others you have not read. If such a contemporary source is found that how will this affect you claim that Baba Khem Singh was a protector of Sikhi?

You said that Baba Khem Singh was a protector of Sikhi and that he did sewa for Sikhi. Vaguely you referred to education especially female education? What else according to your knowledge makes Baba Khem Singh a protector of Sikhi?

[Guest Javanmard]

Well actually not. Had you taken any history course at university you would know that your statement is incorrect. The first course you get in history always deals with methodology and there you learn that sources primary sources are important. I have the primary sources written by the Sanatan SIngh sabha itself and I can't find no trace of your statement. If you can prove me wrong I am more than happy but please provide the evidence because the primary sources do exist!!!

[SAadmin]

I have edited all the Off topics.

For sake of the good debate. This thread is opening once more.

Any kind of off topics will be deleted.

If sikhprincess, lalleshvari and singh47 like to discuss about budda dal and 1984 then do check our archive section. Discussion is called-

"Akaal Takth as fortress".

Take it up there.

Keep it clean guys!

[sikh princess]

Moderator note: EDITED

Sikh princess.

Was i just speaking gibberish that you didnt get my fat red fonts????????!???????????????????????????????? :roll:

[SAadmin]

Here is an interesting articles I would like to share:

Who says that lower castes are not humiliated in Punjab...We only scream ourselves hoarse when they convert to Christianity.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040611/punjab1.htm#15

Dalit paraded after blackening his face

Tribune News Service

Lambi (Muktsar), June 10

In a bizarre incident, a Dalit of Kuttianwali village falling in this police station was allegedly paraded in the village after blackening his face and putting shoes around his neck by some three persons, including the husband of the Sarpanch of the village.

Following a complaint by the victim, Jagir Singh, the police arrested two of the three persons allegedly involved in this inhuman act. Those arrested are Gurcharan Singh, whose wife is the Sarpanch of this village and Jagtar Singh. The third suspect, Chinder Singh, son of the Sarpanch, is at large.

Mr Hargobind Singh, DSP, Malout, said a case under Sections 341,504 and 34 of the IPC had been registered against the suspects. He said it had been confirmed that Jagir Singh’s face was blackened, but whether he was paraded in the village with shoes around his neck or not, was not known as yet.

Narrating his tale of woe, Jagir Singh said that three suspects came to his house yesterday and asked him to come out. They tied his arms, beat him up mercilessly and dragged him to the market of the village.

He said his face was blackened, shoes put around his neck and he was paraded in the village. Parkash Kaur, sister of the victim, who was with him, could not utter a word as she was inconsolable.

Jagir Singh alleged that he was meted out this inhuman treatment because he refused to work in the farms of the suspects without wages.

Jagir Singh has also approached the Punjab State Human Rights Commission and the Chief Minister, Capt Amarinder Singh, for justice.

Cops force Dalit family out of house

Tribune News Service

Talwandi Sabo, June 10

The belongings of a Dalit family, residing in a colony set up under the landless labour scheme by the government at Lehri village in the district, were allegedly thrown out of the house by the police late last evening.

Besides, the police facilitated the illegal possession of that house by some residents of the village.

Talking to TNS, a member of the family, Sarbjit Kaur, alleged that last evening, when no male member was in the house, some policemen came and threw all their belongings out of the house and then helped some residents, reportedly close to Akali leaders of the area, in taking illegal possession of the house. She said the family had to spend the night in the open.

She added that under the landless labour scheme, they were allotted plot numbers 18 and 30 in 1974, but some other family was staying in houses on these plots. Due to this reason, they started living in plot numbers 1 and 2 and had been staying there for the past two decades. She said no plot had been allotted to the persons who took illegal possession of her house.

She alleged that the police beat up two of her kin and later picked them up. She added that the whereabouts of her kin were not known so far.

The police also raided the house of a landlord at Manua Ke village, where Buta Singh, her husband, was working as a farm assistant. She said her husband and her father-in-law Roop Singh had been hiding, fearing action by the police. She added the police was acting under pressure from the Akali leaders.

Mr Jaspal Singh, DSP, Talwandi Sabo, said he had visited the spot and asked both parties to establish the fact that they were the real allottees of the two houses. He denied that the police had played any partisan role. He added that some goods, which were placed by the other section of residents of the village in those houses, had also been removed.

[Singh47]

N30 Singh, the reason why the Christian Missionaries are so successful in converting the Dalits is because the Missionaries use some very devious tactics. In Punjab they will begin by telling how Jesus is very similar to Guru Nanak. Then they start using Sikh terms like calling Jesus as “Satguru†Jesus, or the Christian congregation as “Satsangâ€, singing of Christian hymns as “kirtanâ€.

Outside of Punjab, they refer to Jesus as “Issa Dev†and use Hindu terms to convert Hindus.

Sikhs on the other hand cannot even keep the Sikhs in their own house as Sikhs, then how are to going to go out and convert non-Sikhs? SGPC, Sant Samaj, and other Sikh institutions are way behind the Christian Missionaries in terms of converting people. Yogi Bhajan has thus far been successful in bringing non-Sikhs into the Sikh fold. The fact that Sikhs missionaries cannot even bring Sikligars, Banjaras, Kabir Panthis and other Bhagat Panthis into the Sikh fold speaks volumes about our failures. One day hopefully another Singh Sabha movement will do all this.

[Jamuka]

No need to go far just look at how the Sikhs in this forum behave and you'll know why the Sikh organizations are in such shambles. I have a friend who have embraced Christianity and I myself have attended a few Bible study classes.

I think we've got much better scripture then Christianity unfortunately the Punjabi attitude of intolerance and stupidity is still rife among Punjabi Sikhs. On the other hand, Caucasians are far more mature, intelligent and tolerant then most Sikhs today. What we need a is fresh blood, converts from other races who don't carry the Punjabi baggage with them.

[SAadmin]

Nothing has changed in punjab same problem but now even worse with drugs