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Ram Raiyas and Jathedar Santa Singh of Budda Dal


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Off topic from another thread

1. Baba Santa Singh did NOT apologise but came to call for harmony in the Panth

Lalleshvari it is this sort of 'spin' on this event which makes the vast majority of Sikhs doubt the honesty of sanatans. By coming forward for 'Tankhaah' Santa Singh is admitting that he did wrong!. Unless of course you have totally different interpretation of what a Tankhaiya is and what 'pesh' before the Panj Pyare entails.

Your attempting to make his admission of wrong doing into some sort magnanimous act on the part of Santa Singh for 'panthic unity' is total propaganda. You waste no time in accusing SGPC as Ram Raiyas so why did Santa Singh feel the need to be judged by a Ram Raiya? As the Akal Takht jathedar is in your eyes?

2. Ram Raias are clearly defined as anyone taking the example of Ram Rai. The historical have been re-integrated into the Sikh Panth by the Udasis on request of Mata Panjab Kaur. Had the prohibition been limited in time there would have been no point in stating the 5 mel in the rahit!

No they are not. Ram Raiyas are followers of Baba Ram Rai. Ram Raiyas have never been re-integrated into the Panth. Some may have come over to the Panth but those that still believe in the Guruship of Ram Rai are the ones which the rehat speaks of. Read your books at your university. Ram Raiyas still believing in Ram Rai have been around even after Mata Panjab Kaur. Who were the Ram Raiyas Masands of Ghudani against whom Banda Singh took action after their assault on a Sikh? Ram Raiyas were numerous in the Malwa area even during British rule and it was the Singh Sabha that brought them into Sikhi and not the Udasis. Ram raiyas are virtually unknown apart from in large cities like delhi or at their centre in Dehra Dun.

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Baba Santa Singh accepts ‘tankhah’

Varinder Walia

Tribune News Service

Amritsar, March 17

After 17 years of his excommunication from the Sikh panth for carrying out construction of Akal Takht against “Sikh Maryada†(after Bluestar) Baba Santa Singh chief of Baba Budha Dal today accepted the “tankhah†(punishment for religious misconduct) pronounced by Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, Jathedar from the rostrum of the Akal Takht today.

However, Giani Puran Singh, head granthi, Golden Temple did not attend the meeting of five high priests in which the written petition of Baba Santa Singh seeking unconditional apology from the panth was discussed at length.

Baba Santa Singh, Budha Dal chief, appears before Akal Takht on Saturday. Photo By Rajeev Sharma

The move of the rejoining of the Khalsa Panth by Baba Santa Singh was kept top secret as it was being opposed by some of his followers.

The five high priests, including Jathedar Vedanti, Prof Manjit Singh, Giani Kewal Singh, Giani Bhagwan Singh, Giani Gurbachan Singh announced that Baba Santa Singh would be re-admitted into the Sikh fold after five days of “tankhah†which include recitation/listening of Japuji Sahib and arranging Akhand path at Gurdwara ‘Likhansar’ (part of Takht Damdama Sahib) and offering “Ardasâ€.

Baba Santa Singh, who is not keeping good health was brought in a wheel chair in front of the Akal Takht.

For full story

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010318/punjab1.htm

Doesn't this just show how far the Buddha Dal has fallen in the eyes of Sikhs. Historically the Buddha Dal jathedar used to give 'Tankhah' to Sikhs. Akali Phula Singh even gave 'tankhah' to Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the most powerful sikh at that time. Now the Jathedar Santa Singh had to give Tankhah himself!

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Baba Balbir Singh, who was appointed chief of the parallel sect of the Budha Dal by the SGPC after excommunication of Baba Santa Singh welcomed the decision of Baba Santa Singh for bowing before the Akal Takht after a long gap. He, however, said that now Baba Santa Singh must drop his claim to be chief of the Budha Dal as he had appeared before the Takht as a ‘humble Sikh’. He claimed that he was ‘real Jathedar’ of the Budha Dal as he was honoured at the occasion of the tercentenary of the birth of Khalsa Panth at Anandpur Sahib and many other occasions by the SGPC.

Just curious as to what his current standing in/with the Dal really is?

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You waste no time in accusing SGPC as Ram Raiyas so why did Santa Singh feel the need to be judged by a Ram Raiya? As the Akal Takht jathedar is in your eyes?

This proves that Budha Dal recognizes the authority of the Akal Takht Jathadar even though he was appointed by the SGPC.

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The stance of the Budha Dal with regards to the S.G.P.C will be made clear VERY shortly on www.shastarvidiya.org. The stance of Akali Nihangs during the events prior to, during, and post-1984 will also be FULLY explained, along with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh's full biography.

However, for the moment:

a) the claim that Baba Santa Singh admitted he was wrong with regards to 1984, is another attempt by S.G.P.C. to twist the truth.

B) the Budha Dal does not recognise the authority of the S.G.P.C.

c) the Budha Dal does not recognise the Akali Dal party, or any other British Raj-nurtured institution

d) Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh and the Budha Dal, has not changed its views with regards to the stance taken in 1984

You can be assured that AMPLE proof of this will be provided....

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The stance of the Budha Dal with regards to the S.G.P.C will be made clear VERY shortly on www.shastarvidiya.org. The stance of Akali Nihangs during the events prior to, during, and post-1984 will also be FULLY explained, along with Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh's full biography.

However, for the moment:

a) the claim that Baba Santa Singh admitted he was wrong with regards to 1984, is another attempt by S.G.P.C. to twist the truth.

B) the Budha Dal does not recognise the authority of the S.G.P.C.

c) the Budha Dal does not recognise the Akali Dal party, or any other British Raj-nurtured institution

d) Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh and the Budha Dal, has not changed its views with regards to the stance taken in 1984

You can be assured that AMPLE proof of this will be provided....

So the Tribune newspaper got it wrong? Did Santa Singh give a clarification to the newspaper and ask it to retract it's story? Look forward to you providing links and not just your usual.. see the website tamasha!

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Is he?

I thought this debate was about British influences in Sikh history? It may have escaped your attention Singh47 but not all caucasians ('gorey') are British. There is this little continent called Europe that also contains many fair-skinned people. :roll:

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

I never did receive any answer's to the question posed (see asterix below), any suggestions gratefully received, anyway I thought this may be of help to the discussion, full mail can be found at http://sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness/vie...70&start=30

....The 'nindia' of Santa Singh is a bit more complicated, there is no direct

accusation save for the writer's opinion that the people that are represented

by Santa Singh are to his mind not Nihangs, by his definition, as to what his

definition may be is again a matter for the writer.

I will say this much in regard to Santa Singh, his collaboration with the

Indian Government following bluestar in direct contravention of Sikh interests

is no secret and led to his excommunication from the panth, a punishment

which he accepted after some seventeen years in 'exile'.

Looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a

Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the

worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for

reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his

tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol

drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with

orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.

**Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?**

Excerpt taken from Prof.Sangat Singh's 'The Sikhs In History, a millennium

study'

Prof.Sangat Singh wrote:

"...Buta Singh's inability to meet the conditions of withdrawal of troops from the Golden Temple complex laid down by Baba Kharak Singh, to undertake the 'kar seva', reconstruction of damaged shrine by the voluntary service of the community, which was in the best traditions of Sikhism, was glaring......Lt.Gen.Tirath Singh Oberoi landed in amritsar on July 13, to negotiate the

kar seva..while the army insisted on keeping a picket at darshani

deori,...New Delhi's duplicity was obvious from the fact that this period of

negotiations was utilised to transport a fleet of buses of Santa Singh's

Nihangs from Bhatinda, 300kms away, guarded by Punjab Police commandos,

Indira's special confidant and K.C.Pant flew from Delhi on the evening of

July 16th, and conveyed the move to the army brass. The Generals now

unabashedly told Akalis that Indira had decided that they were still

untrustworthy and the man dubbed Indira's 'favourite nihang', Baba Santa

Singh had been brought in for the kar seva.....The five high preists struck

immediately and issued a hukamnamah barring the Sikhs from participation in

the kar seva without their sanction. Santa Singh refused summons and was

immediately excommunicated....":

Following the demolition of the Indira sponsored re-construction of the Akal Takht it was pulled down to allow it to be re-built by the Sikhs, this time with legitimacy...

Prof.Sangat Singh wrote:

"The rubble of the demolished Akal Takht yeilded a rich crop of meat bones, earthen peices of 'chillums', razor blades etc- all thrown by troops sacrilegiously into the building material at the time of construction under auspices of Baba Santa Singh.":

I will refrain from personal comment on the actions of this man and leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. I will say that your perceived 'nindia' of him, by the album producers, if there has been any, is probably related to the episode above.

lalleshvari wrote:

"Baba Santa Singh is surely to be considered the

jathedar of the SIkh qaum"

Baba Nihal Singh

A.S.KANG wrote:

ps: i love that quote baba nihal singh. and fauge u da man

too!!!

Is this the same Baba Nihal Singh, whom along with late Baba Mangal Singh

Satlani and Baba Bikramjit Singh were also excommunicated for taking part in

Indira's Kar seva?....

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

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So from my understanding from what was posted above is that...Balbir singh was never recognized as he was SGPC appointed and thus no one really took him seriously anyways?

Please if you get a chance, correct me if I'm wrong there.

Next thing I was wondering was about the view that Baba Santa Singh only went to Akaal Takht only to keep harmony within in the Panth.

From previous posts it has been my understanding that "Panth" in some cases refers to only Budha Dal, or nihang dal's. So just wanted to clarify in which way Panth was being used.

Reason for me asking was that, for a large part the Panth was getting along. I dont really see how Baba Ji getting pesh changed things. Unless of course Panth in those terms is reffering to Nihang Dal's, in which case I wonder howt he Nihang Dal's where divided when they reject SGPC anyways, so they would have been one as it was, or no?

Thanks in advance.

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Good questions Shindasingh Ji

The problem is that some ppl aren't prepared to accept the fact that Santa Singh did 'pesh' before the Panj. Their problem stems from the fact that they spend their time 24/7 badmouthing the Panth and calling mainstream Sikhs as 'british influenced' or the new word 'protestantized' Sikhs. How is it that Santa Singh the so-called Jathedar of the Panth apologise to the Akal Takht jatheder who in Santa Singh and other sanatans' eyes is not even a Sikh! So they need to evolve new lines of thinking, Santa Singh did 'pesh' for 'panthic unity'.. which panth is this, the protestantized or the sanatan panth? Why do the sanatans want panthic unity with the protestantized panth when the bad mouth it at every opportunity? Even after Santa Singh's magnamous act they still bad mouth the SGPC? So did Santa Singh's panthic unity efforts fail?

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Sikh 'princess', rest assured all will be explaind in full. It was a matter of literary courtesy that I advertised the fact that there would be an article arrriving soon regarding Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh, and the events of 1984.

It has become a sterotype in that any time Nihang Singhs are mentioned, individuals such as yourself end up dragging Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh's name and reputation through the dirt and claim it is your 'Panthic' duty to do so. The fact that Sukhbir quotes Prof Sangat Singh speaks for itself....

Needless to say, the up-coming article will be of interest to those who wish to take a more intellectual approach to Sikh history, rather than leaning towards making petty quips and insults.

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But Narsingha, your “articles†if you could call it that, never have any references. They just seem to be based on your opinions rather then being supported by scholars.

Yeah and his website's only reference for the use of the word sanatan was use of the same word in a shabad by Bhagat Kabirji

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Strangely, the ones that come up with these British phobic conspiracies are themselves British, heck one of them is even a Gora!

the only person to mention "British phobic conspiracies" was u (at least on this thread), when u said:

I guess our "Sanatan" friends might answer that these news papers are also British influanced, part of a wider British conspiracy to take over the world. :P

singh 47, could u please give references where "British phobic conspiracies" have been alleged.

Beast Siah, the Gora I'm referring to is a Valaiti.

who are u referring to?

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So I guess I'm not not going to get an answer, although I dont mean it as any form of disrespect just a question I had..

On the topic of slandering Jathedar Akali Baba Santa Singh, I was wondering what action would/should be taken against those who claim Gurdev Status yet make claims such as "Fat Slob" when talking about Jathedar Ji on stage or in person?

Should such Gurdev's who although cloak under Budha Dal be tolerated and if not how should one persue the matter in exposing them?

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On the topic of slandering Jathedar Akali Baba Santa Singh, I was wondering what action would/should be taken against those who claim Gurdev Status yet make claims such as "Fat Slob" when talking about Jathedar Ji on stage or in person?

Is there any evidence exist where baba santa singh ji was called fat-slob by nihang niddar singh??

i would defo like to see it.

I had my freinds claiming that nihang niddar singh did labelled baba santa singh ji an fat slob in holla-mohalla 2004 speech. And other half claimed it was just a humor or wasnt said at all in the speech.

Any tape and video evidences would be much appericated to get rid of this confustion.??? :D

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^ oh you're talking about Niddar Singh!

Mod's Note: Message edited! Please change your tone of talking. This was a piolete question?!

I was there at the talk and yes people, he did call Baba Santa singh a "fat slob".

Where abouts were you sitting shindasingh, its important to ascertain how much you saw and heard his speech. You see, the comment was, taken in context, a joke. That may be something difficult for you to understand, because the 150+ other people in the room (80% of whom had NEVER been exposed to Sanatan ideology before) found the funny side of the comment

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