Ram Raiyas and Jathedar Santa Singh of Budda Dal

[Guest]

HOLD UP,dnt make such assumtions yet, the articles not even out, i am gettin a feeling that this site is very anti-Nihang, which is a bit of putting, plz people lets have some love for each other,

*could some one please, answer, is this article, the one trying to explain were the nihangs were in 1984, would defo love to read that.

[Singh47]

Although I respect Nihangs because of their history and traditions, but maybe the role the Nihangs played in 1984 is because they are no longer as fanatical as they were during pre-british India. At least they have preserved Bana, Gatka, and other Sikh traditions alive.

Nihangs like Ajit Poohla have done much to discredit Nihang image in the hearts and minds of the Punjabis both Sikhs and Hindus. Sad because when people look at a Nihang wearing Bana and Shastars they look towards inspiration and guidance, but many go disappointed. That inspiration and guidance was given to people by Sant Jernail Singh Jee Bhindrawala, maybe that’s why people flocked around him as admirers.

[Narsingha]

Having witnessed the anger and rage of Sikhs, young and old, at the 1984 demonstration in London last Sunday, I am certain that if, in your misguided attempt to portray Santa Singh as whiter than white for his role post-Blue Star, you attempt to slander the Kharkoo Singhs who gave their lives in 1984, or try to mock Baba Jarnail Singh as you have done with other Sikhs on your shastarvidyia site, then you'll be the one wishing you'd never opened your mouth.

Moderator's Note: Part of your message was edited. Please take it over the pm.

Sidak, according to the legal system, what you have just stated can be considered a threat. It doesnt bother me, but it may lead to complications for yourself in the future should any problems arise...

You, and others such as yourself are suffering from a severe form of hero-worship. Any word against your heros is considered "slander" even if facts are presented to prove them wrong in their actions. Even people who do not agree with your political views end up being labeled as 'Anti-Sikh'.

Anger and rage...interesting choice of emotions. Are these directed towards

a) the Indian Government?

Sikhs who dont agree with "Khalistan" or terrorist actions

c) Sikhs who do not agree with what Bhindrawalley and his men did in 1984

d) Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh and Nihangs?

e) meat eaters?

Sidak, I hope you and your squad of Panthic Sikhs look up the definitions of what is "slander". You throw this term around and yet you are guilty of promoting such actions yourself (hence the constant warnings you seem to notch up). You may wish to use a dictionary that has been approved by the 'Panth'. :roll:

Finally, if anyone claims to be a 'Sikh' (or 'Gursikh') and yet resorts to threats, murder, slander and insults in the name of Sikhism (under "anger and rage"), then this is just proves that Sikhism has certainly taken a turn for the worst

..indeed, such lame individuals only prove that fanatics often portay themselves as the most holiest of the holy, yet by actions they are no more than petty criminals.

[Rakash Singh]

give an example in the Sikh Dharam of some one considered holy by fanatics but really a criminal? are you trying to imply something about someone here?

[Sikher]

This post is most inspiring maybe it may some up some of the debates going on

http://sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness/viewtopic.php?t=4697

[sidak]

Sidak, according to the legal system, what you have just stated can be considered a threat. It doesnt bother me, but it may lead to complications for yourself in the future should any problems arise...

Narsingha, before you wet your pants, you should read my post before it was edited by the mods. I clearly state that this is not a threat, but just my personal analysis, of events that may unfold as a result of your "article", based upon previous occassions where people have offended leading sikhs figures.

If using logical inference is a crime, then i must be guilty !

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Moderators have already stated that this point is going off topic, please stick to the topic at hand and continue your personal conversations and differences via PM.

Thanking You.

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Sukhbir, from your exploits on this website it is clear that your approach

to Sikh history is based on the asumption that whatever you perceive as the

"truth" must therefore be the ONLY truth......

.

There is truth and there is that which is untrue, the Sikh history referred

to within this thread

is of a recent period and therefore wholly empirical. The fact that it is

consistent from multiple

sources only reinforces this fact. It is not my truth but instead a matter of

record and no amount of subjective

opinion can change that, which is why you avoid answering any questions on

the subject.

My 'exploits' on this site have not drawn criticism from anyone other than

yourself or your ilk,

which is to be excepted, uncomfortable truth's are usually met with a

degree of protest.

If my posting on this site has been contradictory to the purpose of the site

I am yet to hear of yet.

Perhaps you should be looking closer to home, I have not to date received

any warning or direction

from the administrators, you cannot claim the same.

Your purpose is to defame, slander and create hatred towards Nihangs (that

much is pretty evident). I hope you are successful in your venture because

you certainly put a lot of effort into it......

.

My purpose is neither to defame nor slander, rather than continuously

applying these words as a response to any and all questioning perhaps you can

present examples from my post that are either

slanderous or defamatory.

Hatred is a strong word and I think it would be

more accurate to say that it is your integrity

that is being questioned, it is not hateful to be sceptical. In this

'venture' (creating scepticism) you have been entirely successful

without help from any third party, sincerely

are you really the best 'spokesperson' that your 'group' is able to muster, or are

your frequent 'faux pas' intentional?

As to your final point, sorry to

disappoint you but I believe you overestimate your ability by quite some

margin, it is really rather effortless countering someone in a position as

untenable as yours.

.

The extent of your intellect can be summed very easily...In such an age,

where Sikhs are struggling to ensure they are not tainted as terrorists to

avoid being persecuted, you and others of your camp, end up promoting racial

intolerance, assassinations, truancy, and physical violence towards others by

promoting products such as the CD advertised on www.shaheedi.com

......

.

I was hopeful that following our previous parley resulting in you

threatening to leave this site, you would make good use of your time away

and either find the answers to the innumerable questions left unanswered by

yourself or at least hone your debating skill's by some degree.

It would seem that I was over optimistic on both counts.

You have deflected all relevant questions, instead you

attempt to avoid the issue by raising previous thread's.

Since you are unable to respond to the questions of others

as means of demonstration I will respond to yours.

The only way that the Sikhs will be able to undo the years of GOI propaganda

that portrayed the Sikhs as terrorist's both domestically and

internationally is by raising awareness of the truth. The portrayal of Sikhs

as terrorists by india, is not a unique phenomenon.

Repressive state's that

have sought to subjugate people(s) demands have traditionally employed

tactics to malign them or their cause, whatever happens to be considered

the most heinous label of the time is employed, once the term communist

would suffice to create fear and loathing and in recent time's the word

'terrorist' is in vogue.

Indeed Nelson Mandela and his ANC party were both

cited terrorist and terrorist organisation respectively. The world only

started to question the labels imposed by the South African state when they

became increasingly aware of the behaviour of the state and its role in the creation of these

'terrorists'.

It is not, as you suggest for Sikhs to deny the armed

struggle and their great martyrs who gave their all for a just cause, for

fear of being branded a terrorist, on the contrary we must raise the worlds

awareness as to indian state terrorism that was responsible for the Sikhs taking up

a armed resistance in the first place.

We may recall that violent and

murderous states quite commonly justify their actions as

'counter-terrorism': for example, the Nazis fighting partisan resistance.

Remember also that the right to self determination is enshrined in

international law

'....that nothing could prejudice the right to self determination, freedom

and independence, as derived from the charter of the United Nations, of

people forcibly deprived of the right...particularly peoples under colonial

and racist regimes and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial

domination,to support the right of these peoples to struggle to this end and

to seek and receive support...'

After your suggestion that Sikhs should, through fear of being branded terrorists, deny the armed struggle and its martyrs you move onto the subject of assassinations.

Simply, if you condemn the action's of Bhai Satwant Singh and Bhai Beant Singh then you also condemn the actions of Bhai Udham Singh.

Should you condemn those that sought justice from the likes of gobind ram a police 'officer' who as well as being a prolific torturer and murderer was fond of forcing his prisoners to drink his urine, commenting that you have drank the amrit of Gobind Singh now drink the 'amrit' of Gobind Ram, then you are also condeming Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Methab Singh for punishing massa rangar.

Now you may be willing to deny these 'mahaan jodhi' but I as well as the vast majority of Sikhs are not.

In reference to your further accusation, racial intolerance is not promoted by raising awareness of the events of the past twenty years nor is it racially intolerant to commemorate the martyrs of the Sikh nation.

Is the observance of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Guru Teg Bahadur ji fostering racial intolerance between Sikhs and muslims?

Incidentally this argument was the very one used by the GOI to present the issue of Panjab as one of communal strife between hindus and Sikhs when in reality it was an entirely political creation.

To read that armed struggle is simply a case of promoting physical violence towards others is not a comment that I would except to encounter on a 'Sikh website', do I really have to relay how the use of physical force in the face of tyranny is justified?

It seems you neo-nihangs are more radical than I thought, firstly you condemn the actions of men who are held in the highest esteem within Sikh history and then question the right to resort to force, I am truly astonished. All I can suggest here is please look at the precedents, even the most basic perusal of Sikh history will clarify this point.

.

I will let the upcoming article on my website speak for itself - that is

unless you wish to give me money to publish my work in a text, then i am

afraid you will have to refer to a website. It will answer the questions

posed on this thread, with lots of evidence too. You may not agree with a

lot of the evidence, for it may mean that you have to reassess your views

with regards to Nihangs. No doubt it will mean a few more death threats,

slander, insults, etc., from those who perceive Nihangs as "anti panthic"

elements. Some of these 'Gursikhs' even choose to pick on women associated

with the Akharas in the UK.......

.

Any organisation or individual for that matter, that requires a number of years to formulate their opinion on events that took place twenty years ago must be viewed with suspicion. Your comments above relating to how Sikhs should present themselves in order to avoid being labelled as terrorist's is very telling.

If escaping persecution is your first priority then consider this, Balbir Singh Sodhi killed in the aftermath of 09/11 was killed by his assailant not because he perceived him to be a Sikh terrorist but because the ignoramus thought he looked like a 'rag head'(americanism relates to arabs islamist terror etc.), by your reasoning then our only sanctuary is to change our appearance, for if we can turn our back and deny our history and principles to save ourselves then why not our appearance?

Your reasoning is that Sikhs should present themselves in a manner that is palatable for any given audience, regard for the truth is by this method at best secondary at worst scant.

This is, no doubt the same methodology you resort to when presenting opinion and 'evidence' on your site. The creation of

your opinion is not based on fact or even on principled reasoning but instead on what you consider to be most attractive to the reader, I contend this is the very reason that we have been waiting so long for you to manufacture a response to the many questions put to you regarding 84.

By your reasoning Sikhs could escape persecution as terrorists by denying fundamental principles like upholding the truth and standing defiant in the face of tyranny, if you advocate such thinking should we really hold out much hope for your version of the events of 1984?

.

Sukhbir, should you know the individuals responsible for the threats, please

ask them to send me a box of Ferrero Rocher in their next parcel (preferbly

with a lovely dark blue ribbon)..........

.

In the same way that I was critical of the veiled threats you made against some posters on this site I am equally critical of those who may be threatening you, if indeed this is actually taking place. Personally I think you present a minor threat to the young, impressionable and uninformed but your certainly far from being a major threat, assuming of course these death threats are not just a product of a paranoid and overactive imagination.

One further word of advice I would offer is rather than requesting ferrero rocher you should instead be asking for a very large container of salt, so that 'you' can add a generous pinch to everything 'you' write.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[SAadmin]

Great post sukhbir ji.

[sukhsingh]

id like to see narsinghas reply to that big post by sukhbir singh ji

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

vaheguru ji ka khalsa

vaheguru ji ki fateh

wow been on my hols just got back, same old crap the neo nihangs of the uk are still coming out with. well boys do not hold ur breath for any replys to their question, still waiting on the Damdami Taksaal one.

Veerji sukhbir singh ji great post keep it up dnt let them rest until they come out with what they really wana say is that the gursikhs (the real nihangs)who stood up to oppression in the last 20 years are TERRORISTS. then ppl will understand why these ppl creat so much division and upset loads off young sikhs who have the love for our great Shaheeds of the 20 century.

BOLE SONI HAL SAT SRI AKAAL

DEG TEG FATEH

sukdev

[Narsingha]

That was a huge reply, obviously a lot of time and effort has been put into ensuring that this "minor" threat to the Sikhs is controlled.

Not much point in carrying on this debate, the upcoming articles will speak for themselves. They will be presenting facts, rather than utilising emotional blackmail. Appealing to emotions is a great tool...works well on idiots (I wont mention any names :wink: )

Meanwhile, I await the next 'Panthic' CD with great anticipation. I hope it is a runaway success as the first 2 attempts. Hopefully the Nihangs will be mentioned again...perhaps the 'rapper' Malkeet may improve his lisp and his comand of the English language, so we can actually understand what he says

[shindasingh]

Narsingha you wrote....

That was a huge reply, obviously a lot of time and effort has been put into ensuring that this "minor" threat to the Sikhs is controlled.

Not much point in carrying on this debate, the upcoming articles will speak for themselves. They will be presenting facts, rather than utilising emotional blackmail. Appealing to emotions is a great tool...works well on idiots (I wont mention any names )

Meanwhile, I await the next 'Panthic' CD with great anticipation. I hope it is a runaway success as the first 2 attempts. Hopefully the Nihangs will be mentioned again...perhaps the 'rapper' Malkeet may improve his lisp and his comand of the English language, so we can actually understand what he says

But on various occassions you also wrote.......

There is not much point discussing anything with you, Mr Singh, because time and again as you have proved (on many forums) that you ignore anything that doesnt fit in with your dogma, still continue to argue and asking for more proof anytime your bubble is burst. When it comes to the crunch, insults prevail...

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...nsults&start=15

Continue the cheap insults, I am sure they will add to your credibility someday...

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...nsults&start=30

:roll:

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

vaheguru ji ka khalsa

vaheguru ji ki fateh

typical why do u bother coming on here??? dnt worry we will reply to ur untruths with FACTS and video footage of what santa was doing at Sri Akaal Bhunga. u just have to read all the newpapers plus i heard india today july 1984 has got a few interviews which will be interesting. so make sure ur articals are good, well they should be its took u lot about 5 years to come up with a reply from the 1st time the singhs in wolverhampton asked parmjit alas nidar abot WHERE WAS THE NIHANGS (santas lot) IN 84 onwards

cnt wait for nihang.com

sukdev

dhan guruji

dhan thera panth khalsa

never forget 84

check out the turnout for demo june 84

www.sikhifm.com

[sidak]

Meanwhile, I await the next 'Panthic' CD with great anticipation. I hope it is a runaway success as the first 2 attempts. Hopefully the Nihangs will be mentioned again...perhaps the 'rapper' Malkeet may improve his lisp and his comand of the English language, so we can actually understand what he says

Awwww, after all the pages and pages Narsingh devotes to condemning others who he feels indulge in petty "slander" and "hatred" against him, his gurdev Niddar Singh and his maha gurdev Santa Singh, he makes these silly statements about someone who isn't even involved in the discussion!

Mod's Note: Message Edited due to un-wanted bickering!

Anyway, we look forward to your articles(s), just make sure they have more words than pretty pictures of santa singh and/or decapitated goats or quotes from some dusty sadhu sitting in a tree. :roll:

[Narsingha]

Awwww, after all the pages and pages Narsingh devotes to condemning others who he feels indulge in petty "slander" and "hatred" against him, his gurdev Niddar Singh and his maha gurdev Santa Singh, he makes these silly statements about someone who isn't even involved in the discussion!

Mod's Note: Message Edited due to un-wanted bickering!

Anyway, we look forward to your articles(s), just make sure they have more words than pretty pictures of santa singh and/or decapitated goats or quotes from some dusty sadhu sitting in a tree. :roll:

Inevitably when people start asking questions about Nihangs, the lunatic fringe seems to pull the conversation into an argument about "1984", "meat" or "cannabis". Its tragic. As yet, it appears you lot havent discovered the definitions of slander...I guess accusing me of shopping at Asda is more 'Panthic' in your eyes.

Sidak, plenty of pictures will be going up, because we have all seen that most people in your camp cannot read. As Sanatan Sikhs, its our duty to cater for all, even those with a comic-book approach to Sikhism... :wink:

[sikh princess]

Narsingha, you're the one who brought up the subject of 1984? So are you saying you're part of the lunatic fringe?

[Beast]

Narsingha, you're the one who brought up the subject of 1984? So are you saying you're part of the lunatic fringe?

:?:

This thread was created by you about Baba Santa Singh in 1984. What you on? :mrgreen:

Off topic from another thread

lalleshvari wrote:

1. Baba Santa Singh did NOT apologise but came to call for harmony in the Panth

Lalleshvari it is this sort of 'spin' on this event which makes the vast majority of Sikhs doubt the honesty of sanatans. By coming forward for 'Tankhaah' Santa Singh is admitting that he did wrong!. Unless of course you have totally different interpretation of what a Tankhaiya is and what 'pesh' before the Panj Pyare entails.

Your attempting to make his admission of wrong doing into some sort magnanimous act on the part of Santa Singh for 'panthic unity' is total propaganda. You waste no time in accusing SGPC as Ram Raiyas so why did Santa Singh feel the need to be judged by a Ram Raiya? As the Akal Takht jathedar is in your eyes?

After 17 years of his excommunication from the Sikh panth for carrying out construction of Akal Takht against “Sikh Maryada†(after Bluestar) Baba Santa Singh chief of Baba Budha Dal today accepted the “tankhah†(punishment for religious misconduct) pronounced by Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, Jathedar from the rostrum of the Akal Takht today.

However, Giani Puran Singh, head granthi, Golden Temple did not attend the meeting of five high priests in which the written petition of Baba Santa Singh seeking unconditional apology from the panth was discussed at length.

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

That was a huge reply, obviously a lot of time and

effort has been put into..

You really should stop judging other's by your own shortcomings, (FYI) I

wrote most of the post at my monthly car club meeting,

outside in the glorious sunshine. I assure you it was neither time consuming

nor an effort, you may find responding to a question is far less fatiguing

than avoiding one.

I responded to every point you raised even though you refuse to answer a

single question that I put to you. As for it being a 'huge' reply, the word

your groping for is comprehensive, but there again why should I except you

to recognise such a thing.

..ensuring that this "minor" threat to the Sikhs is

controlled.........

.

Am I controlling you? I think not, I am afraid you will have to look

elsewhere for the 'master' that pulls your strings.

Not much point in carrying on this debate, the upcoming articles will speak

for themselves.......

.

Ah, a refreshing change of tact then?

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

This thread was created by you about Baba Santa Singh in 1984. What you on? .

.

Yes, beast the thread title related to Santa Singh and his actions following 'bluestar', but it did so quite specifically, his acceptance of the 'Tankhaah' and his official return to the fold, based upon his acceptance of wrong doing after a number of years.

Narsingha did not accept the events as described above, initially his posting did relate to this specifically,as was the purpose of the thread, but if you take a look back through the thread it was in answer to this post,

-- --------------------------------

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

It has become a sterotype in that any time Nihang Singhs are mentioned,

individuals such as yourself end up dragging Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh's

name and reputation through the dirt and claim it is your 'Panthic' duty to

do so.

.

It may be inconvenient for you, undoubtedly you wish that the actions of

Santa Singh were not common knowledge, but as no study of Santa Singh would

be complete without discussing his collaboration with the GOI conspired 'kar

seva', no discussion of the neo-nihangs would be complete without referring

to Santa Singh.

Bear in mind also that his name appears in the title of this very thread.

Rather than expressing your sorrow that people have a irritating habit of

scrutinising the behaviour of individuals, here is a novel approach for you,

try defending Santa Singh's actions.

This may be akin to flogging the proverbial horse, but your no stranger to

that pursuit.

He and consequently 'neo-nihangs' will never be able to escape historical

record and try as you may you cannot wish it away.

Of course I can take it as given that the answer to this question as any

other is soon to appear along with 'evidence' on one site or another.

The fact that Sukhbir quotes Prof Sangat Singh speaks for

itself.....

.

Speaks of what exactly?

You may think that such a comment is in itself enough to cast an aspersion

but you are, not for the first time I hasten to add, mistaken. If you have

any reason to cast doubt upon Prof. Sangat Singh's reputation than I suggest

you post it here.

Further despite your apparent unsubstantiated questioning of Prof. Sangat

Singh as a source, the quote which I posted is neither a commentary or

assessment of Santa Singh, it is merely a historic record of events running

up to Santa Singh carrying out the 'kar seva' at the request of the GOI.

Is their any part of the historical record, as recounted through the quote

that you can dispute?

Since the sequence of events itself as contained within the quote is

available from multiple sources, I look forward to your answer.

The questions are very clear indeed, did Santa Singh carry out the 'kar

seva' at the behest of the GOI?

I assume you admit this?

In that case perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a further question*.

Looked at in a historical comparative his (Santa Singhs) actions would have

been equal to a

Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the

worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for

reconstruction after his destruction of Harmandir Sahib whilst allowing his

tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol

drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with

orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.

**Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried

out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered

by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him

or his action's?**

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

---------------------------------------------------

that he felt compelled to write what you see below, why he wrote this rather than respond to the post....I will leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

Sukhbir, from your exploits on this website it is clear that your approach to Sikh history is based on the asumption that whatever you perceive as the "truth" must therefore be the ONLY truth.

Your purpose is to defame, slander and create hatred towards Nihangs (that much is pretty evident). I hope you are successful in your venture because you certainly put a lot of effort into it.

The extent of your intellect can be summed very easily...In such an age, where Sikhs are struggling to ensure they are not tainted as terrorists to avoid being persecuted, you and others of your camp, end up promoting racial intolerance, assasinations, truancy, and physical violence towards others by promoting products such as the CD advertised on www.shaheedi.com.

I will let the upcoming article on my website speak for itself - that is unless you wish to give me money to publish my work in a text, then i am afraid you will have to refer to a website. It will answer the questions posed on this thread, with lots of evidence too. You may not agree with a lot of the evidence, for it may mean that you have to reassess your views with regards to Nihangs. No doubt it will mean a few more death threats, slander, insults, etc., from those who perceive Nihangs as "anti panthic" elements. Some of these 'Gursikhs' even choose to pick on women associated with the Akharas in the UK.

Sukhbir, should you know the individuals responsible for the threats, please ask them to send me a box of Ferrero Rocher in their next parcel (preferbly with a lovely dark blue ribbon)............

.

-------------------------------------------------------

this is clearly not a response to the previous post and entirely irrelevant to the thread, his post deviates off topic, his is not the first in this thread but he does 'bring in to play' the events of 84 in their broadest terms by referring to an album that was created as a reminder and tribute of that entire period.

So it is indeed Narsingha that brought the issues of 84 in their entirety into this thread so by his own criteria he is therefore the 'lunatic fringe', it is this that I believe is the point being made by 'Sikh princess'.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[sikh princess]

I just don't understand Narsingha problem with a CD that's been brought out so that the youth can know something about the Shaheed's of 1984. Maybe he doesn't want the next generation of sikhs to know about Santa Singh's betrayal.

Beast nice to see you're awake. Try reading the whole tread rather than jumping in when you think you have found a 'clever' answer to someone's post!

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

*(*Coughs*)*...- LQQK Whoez talking.. :roll:

[tSingh]

slightly off topic, but can someone tell me why all the photos on www.sikhifm.com have the singh's faces blurred out?

[Sherni-E-Punjab]

Images have been blurred to protect the identities of individuals. These photos are to raise awareness of the attrocities that took place on June 4th 1984 when the Indian Government attacked the Harimandir Sahib and killed innocent Sikhs. For more information, go to www.saintsoldiers.net or email general@sikhifm.com.

[Beast]

I just don't understand Narsingha problem with a CD that's been brought out so that the youth can know something about the Shaheed's of 1984. Maybe he doesn't want the next generation of sikhs to know about Santa Singh's betrayal.

Of course you don't see a problem with the CD; your mindset and rationality have been evident since you first started polluting.

On a slightly different note, while everyone awaits Narsingha's reply, I have a query to ask of everyone involved in this debate:

We are not talking here about a historical incident on which primary sources are questioned. We are talking about a relatively recent event (only 20 years) where many of the 'main players' are still alive. Why is it that noone has attempted to ask and record Baba Santa Singh's views?

Certain sites would then be able to greatly validate their claims that Baba Santa Singh is either a Ram Raiya or is not a Ram Raiya.

Surely in the last 20 years somebody could have interviewed Baba Santa Singh about his actions? Its not like he acts like Kala Afghana, running around the whole world with his bodyguards to protect himself against any intelligent questioning into his work.