Terrorism

[palm_w1]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I would like to know what people think about terrorism?

What is it? How do you define it?

what are the boundaries, e.g. if i petrol bomb guv's car over a car parking dispute is that terrorism? Does it have to be against governments? The loyalist paramilitaries have been labelled terrorist but didn't really try and coerce any governments.

Can one commit terrorism against a military target, or does it have to be civilian? i have heard the iraqi insurgents who attack american military targets described as terrorists, can this really be?

The definition above says 'unlawful' use of force, how does this work across international boundaries? does the UN have to authorise force?

Can countries commit terrorism? against one another? or against its own people?

would like to hear your views, thanks.

[guv]

e.g. if i petrol bomb guv's car over a car parking dispute is that terrorism?

no. that would be stupidity seeing as i'm the one who often gives u a lift!

from the definition, it would seem that most wars could be classified as terrorism. interesting that it says "force or violence". would that "force" have to be physical to be terrorism? or could it be financial... eg trade sanctions etc? (cuba pops into mind)

[Guest]

hmmm i herd some one say, "One mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter" bogled my mind for so long

[sexy_singh]

thats stupid. iam my own terrorist and freedom fighter. i know the difference. see? it depends solely on your intentions.

what are the intentions?

- make a country for the poor dying sikhs so that they can be powerful and mighty?

- bad intention.

- make a country where everyone has basic human rights?

- good intention.

[Jamuka]

I think a terrorist is one who attacks civilians as opposed to military targets in order to coerce the one that he terrorises to comply his demands.

I believe that Hamas is a terrorist group whereas the LTTE are freedom fighters.

At the end of the day only cowards will innocent women and children whereas real men will take on military or armed targets.

[Narsingha]

perhaps we can utilise examples from history to explain this further

[Guest]

YEH, plz tell

[mehtab]

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2811

[palm_w1]

I agree Hamas is a terrorist organisation as it has attacked and killed many civilians. However i point out that the Israeli Govt does the exact same thing and kills many palestinian civilians, carrying out air strikes in populated areas knowing they will kill civilians. Also the way they knock down palestinian houses at will, this is destruction of property and I think should be classed as terrorism.

As for the LTTE they recruit child soldiers as young as 12. Is this a form of terrorism, breaking into the homes of the people they purport to protect and taking their children away to fight in their wars against the Sri Lankan Govt forces.

I definately agree with Guv, trade sanctions can be a form of terrorism. Why is the whole cuban population being deprived of commerce just because their rulers decided to become communist? The US embargo has created massive poverty there. Also is the fact that they have a communist government enough to justify the embargo? Why does it affect america, the cold war is over.

[Jamuka]

I agree Hamas is a terrorist organisation as it has attacked and killed many civilians. However i point out that the Israeli Govt does the exact same thing and kills many palestinian civilians, carrying out air strikes in populated areas knowing they will kill civilians. Also the way they knock down palestinian houses at will, this is destruction of property and I think should be classed as terrorism.

There is a difference. Hamas specifically targets civilians with their suicide bombers whereas the Palestinian civilians killed are usually bystanders or coconspirators who were there during confrontations between the IDF and Hamas terrorists. The fault is not in the hands of the Israeli gocerment but in the hands of Hamas terrorists who hide among civilians and the civilians who harbour them. And most of the time these so called Palestinian civilians are not really innocent. I read a story where a Palestinian man killed his kids to make it look like an IDF hit.

Israel is a country recognised by the world. It has every right to defend itself against terrorists even when these terrorists hide among civilians. Those Palestinian houses were housing terrorists. The latest I heard so far are now UN ambulances are being used to transport terrorists into Israel.

If Israel is really a terrorist goverment, why bother doing it themselves? They might as well revive the Irgun and sponsor them to do the killing. The Irgun were an extremist Israeli terrorist organisation that existed before Israels independance. It would be better for the Israeli goverment to secretly sponsor the Irgun and then when Palestinian civilians are killed, they could just feign ignorance and tell the world that they are trying their level best to eradicate them. This is what most Muslimnations are doing.

As for the LTTE they recruit child soldiers as young as 12. Is this a form of terrorism, breaking into the homes of the people they purport to protect and taking their children away to fight in their wars against the Sri Lankan Govt forces.

I admit I do not know much about the LTTE but at least their cause is legitimate whereas the Palestinians isn't. Arafat himself is an Egyptian. What is an Egyptian doing heading the PLO? If this conflict is supposed to be about territory, why is an Egyptian getting involved?

I definately agree with Guv, trade sanctions can be a form of terrorism. Why is the whole cuban population being deprived of commerce just because their rulers decided to become communist? The US embargo has created massive poverty there. Also is the fact that they have a communist government enough to justify the embargo? Why does it affect america, the cold war is over.

Here is the meaning of the word 'Terrorist' by an online dictionary

Definition: [n] a radical who employs terror as a political weapon

[adj] characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/terrorist

Exactly how does an embargo on a nation by another constitue terrorism? Please explain.

By the same token do you also agree to Beasts contention that the US is a terrorist state?

[palm_w1]

There is a difference. Hamas specifically targets civilians with their suicide bombers whereas the Palestinian civilians killed are usually bystanders or coconspirators who were there during confrontations between the IDF and Hamas terrorists. The fault is not in the hands of the Israeli gocerment but in the hands of Hamas terrorists who hide among civilians and the civilians who harbour them. And most of the time these so called Palestinian civilians are not really innocent. I read a story where a Palestinian man killed his kids to make it look like an IDF hit.

I think your last assertion is a little extreme, perhaps u could provide evidence of your ramblings regarding the father murdering his child. If the IDF attacks somebody knowing they will kill innocents it is a terrorist act, simple as. Also the IDF is well known for attacking civilians, shooting little children who throw stones at them etc. Also its a bit rich calling them the IDF (Israeli Defence Forces), i think the ITF, Israeli Terrorist Forces is a more apt name.

Look at how they tortured prisoners in southern lebanon, currently do in palestine, illegal occupation of golan heights, kidnapping the likes of vanunu etc etc.

Israel is a country recognised by the world. It has every right to defend itself against terrorists even when these terrorists hide among civilians. Those Palestinian houses were housing terrorists. The latest I heard so far are now UN ambulances are being used to transport terrorists into Israel.

perhaps u shud check ur sources better, israel is recognised by hardly any of the countries in its region, and most other western countries only recognised it when they had economic stakes involved, e.g. britain and france over the suez canel. the US's major interest is the American Jewish vote.

If Israel is really a terrorist goverment, why bother doing it themselves?

why not? the US govt vetoes any resolutions trying to stop israeli terrorism so they don't have to hide it. And the irgun did openly blow up the king david hotel where they murdered 91 people, the israeli govt grow up out of these terrorist organisations.

Also i must profess ignorance to arafats lineage, could u pls show me some evidence he is egyptian.

Exactly how does an embargo on a nation by another constitue terrorism? Please explain.

because the american govt is stopping medical aid and food getting to innocent people resulting in deaths. i believe this is terrorism. if u look at my first post i simply ask what do people define terrorism as, this is my definition.

By the same token do you also agree to Beasts contention that the US is a terrorist state?

hell yes, don't u?

bush = :twisted:

[palm_w1]

It would be better for the Israeli goverment to secretly sponsor the Irgun and then when Palestinian civilians are killed, they could just feign ignorance and tell the world that they are trying their level best to eradicate them. This is what most Muslimnations are doing.

thats quite a sweeping generalisation, especially considering bush has just classed islamabad as a 'Major US ally'. Perhaps u shud pass on ur secret intelligence to him, seems like the rest of the US agencies aren't doing very well.

I admit I do not know much about the LTTE but at least their cause is legitimate whereas the Palestinians isn't.

no legitimate cause!?!?!?! palestinians had lived there for hundreds of years, then some jews come in and take over, kill thousands, declare a country, kick them out, terrorise them for decades and u say they have no legitimate cause!

[palm_w1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3821485.stm

this in my eyes is an example of israeli terrorism.

they first murdered a british student helping kids cross the road. when british MP's came on an investigation they started shooting at them to terrorise them into leaving and not investigating the previous murder.

as per usual the official israeli line is the palestinians did it.

[Jamuka]

I think your last assertion is a little extreme, perhaps u could provide evidence of your ramblings regarding the father murdering his child.

Check out this link and educate yourself. Plestinians are known to abuse their own young from day one.http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20934

If the IDF attacks somebody knowing they will kill innocents it is a terrorist act, simple as.

Errr no, it's not. Most of the time these so called innocent bystanders are not so 'innocent'. Secondly what do you propose, let those Hamas people have a fiedl day in Israel?

Also the IDF is well known for attacking civilians, shooting little children who throw stones at them etc. Also its a bit rich calling them the IDF (Israeli Defence Forces), i think the ITF, Israeli Terrorist Forces is a more apt name.

Ok, did you like foregt to take your regular prescription of Prozac?

Look at how they tortured prisoners in southern lebanon, currently do in palestine, illegal occupation of golan heights, kidnapping the likes of vanunu etc etc.

The tortured prisoners of S.Lebanon were actually tortured by the Lebanese Christians who were taking revenge againts these Islamos. I don't believe this lie is being regurgitated again and again. As for Golan heights if I'm not mistaken, it was won in the last war between Israel against Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Needless to say, these three countries got their ass whooped by Israel and Golan Heights is fair game. Vanunu is traitor to his country.

perhaps u shud check ur sources better, israel is recognised by hardly any of the countries in its region, and most other western countries only recognised it when they had economic stakes involved, e.g. britain and france over the suez canel. the US's major interest is the American Jewish vote.

Huh?? Are we playing with a full deck of cards here? Hello! Have you heard of the UN? A country in todays world if recognised by the UN is considered a legitimate state.

why not? the US govt vetoes any resolutions trying to stop israeli terrorism so they don't have to hide it. And the irgun did openly blow up the king david hotel where they murdered 91 people, the israeli govt grow up out of these terrorist organisations.

You just don't seem to get now, do you? A terrorist is one who specifically targets women and children which Hamas and the PLO's Fatah movement have beein doing for ages. The IDF have never been involved in any attacks specifically against civilians.

Also i must profess ignorance to arafats lineage, could u pls show me some evidence he is egyptian.

Arafat was born in Egypt. The only reason he is at the forfront at Palestinian politics was because his uncle Haj Amin Husseini was the former Mufti of Jerusalem. Read history, Haj Amin Husseini was offered to live side by side with the Jews under secular rule but he refused. Instead he proclaimed he wanted a Pleastine to be formed with harsh Islamic law implemented. Anyway here is a few links a to Arafats lineage.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/arafat.html

because the american govt is stopping medical aid and food getting to innocent people resulting in deaths. i believe this is terrorism. if u look at my first post i simply ask what do people define terrorism as, this is my definition.

It's a pretty warped definition but no matter, you are entitled to your opinion no matter how looney it is.

hell yes, don't u?

You need help.

thats quite a sweeping generalisation, especially considering bush has just classed islamabad as a 'Major US ally'. Perhaps u shud pass on ur secret intelligence to him, seems like the rest of the US agencies aren't doing very well.

Generalisation? Which planet are you living on? Islamabad is classified as a major ally for political purposes just like how China too is considered an ally dumbo. The terrorist that are being sponsored by Pakistan does not effect the US but Pakistans neighbour India. So I guess Vajpayee and Pervez Musharraff was testing their Nuclear Arsenal in the respective nations for the sake of celebrating 'holi'? Are you nuts?

no legitimate cause!?!?!?! palestinians had lived there for hundreds of years, then some jews come in and take over, kill thousands, declare a country, kick them out, terrorise them for decades and u say they have no legitimate cause!

This is my challenge to you, show me when and where a Palestinian history or civilization ever existed?

FYI dumbo the Muslims only arrived in Jerusalem when it was annexed from the Byzanteums by the Muslims under the rule of Caliph Omar in the 7th century. The Jews faced one of their worst nightamares as they were dispersed by the Muslims.

The term Palestine was given to Jerusalem when the Romans annexed it. They renamed it Palestine after an ancient nemesis of the Jews, the Philistines in order to completely annex the city from the Jews and also to displace them. Ever heard of ancient foxklores 'Samson and Delilah'? Delilah who seduced Samson was a Philistinian. Please note, there no Arabs there at the time.

Judaism existed a good 2000 years before Muhammad was born. With Islam came Arab expansionism which resulted in the annexation of many nations, Jerusalem included. Israel and Judah were ancient nations that existed thousand of years ago when Muhammads ancestors were learning how to tame camels.

And here is a little bonus for you, even todays present day Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are not native to these countries. The real Egyptians are a minority in their own country. They are referred to as Coptic Christians. Jordan never ixisted prior to the Brits arriving there.

this in my eyes is an example of israeli terrorism.

they first murdered a british student helping kids cross the road. when british MP's came on an investigation they started shooting at them to terrorise them into leaving and not investigating the previous murder.

Oh I see, you're a byproduct of the BBC, the British Burqa Corporation.

Just tell me this, Israel only consist 11% of the entire mid east, why can't the Muslims let then have that tiny sliver of land? After the MUslims have the entire Mid East for themselves. This Palestinian/ Israeli conflict has absolutely nothing to do with land. Please read this article and enlighten yourself.

It's about Jerusalem, stupid

By Michael Anbar May 19, 2004

What is the driving force behind the Arab-Israeli conflict? What is its "underlying cause"?

We have witnessed in the last 85 or so years, since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, violent hostilities of Arabs against Jews in the Middle East. These hostilities have taken different shapes over the years, including: (1) Religion-incited mob riots against defenseless ancient Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem and Hebron (1929). (2) Attacks by armed, well-trained paramilitary guerillas against Jewish isolated villages and transportation (1935-9). (3) Concerted invasions by armies of the neighboring Arab countries (1948,67,73). (4) Long-range missile attacks on Israeli towns and villages (1979-81, 2001-04). (5) Arab marine commando raids from the Mediterranean, including kidnapping and murder of individual Jews (1980-2004). (6) Anti-Jewish incitement of Muslim masses by Islamic clergy throughout the Muslim world (1935-2004)). (7) Desecration of Jewish holy sites by agitated Arab mobs (2000-01), and (8) indiscriminate brutal terrorist attacks against Jewish civilians, including suicidal mass murders of non-combatants (1997-2004). Finally, (9) a relentless wave of anti-Semitism emanates in the last 20 years from the Arab world.

In addition, there is a boycott of personal interactions between Arabs and Jews in international forums and ostracizing Israelis in international organizations, including certain European Universities, ostensibly because Jews are according to the Koran subhuman beings - descendents of apes and pigs. There is also a worldwide jihad - a "holy war" against all Jews and their supporters, the U.S. in particular, bombing and desecrating synagogues and Jewish graveyards and religious schools all over the world.

Excuses or "explanations" in Western media for all those murderous outrages and other anti-Jewish manifestations include: (1) Sheer Islamic xenophobia as well as envy of the spectacular economic and technological success of the young Jewish country. (2) Some of the Western commentators suggest that Arab dictators use the Israeli issue to distract their masses from their oppressive misery at home. But even if the latter explanation was partially true, it does not give good reason for why the Jewish presence in the Middle East is such an effective rallying point for Arab masses in despotic regimes. And (3) the western values of Israeli society, especially gender equality, threaten the stability of Arab neighboring societies and therefore the Arab leadership must denounce Israel and its culture.

Then there are "ideological" explanations: (4) Refusal to recognize pre-Islamic Jewish and Christian biblical and post-biblical histories. (5) Refusal to recognize contemporary Jews as descendent of the ancient "Children of Israel." (6) Adherence to Islamic religious tenets that mandate the elimination of "infidels" whose presence "contaminates" "Arab land" (i.e., killing of all non-Muslims who are not readily subjugated by Islam).

Finally there are explanations associated with Western "political correctness" and anti-colonialism: (7) Armed rebellion against an "illegal occupation" of "Palestine" and the "national liberation" of the "Palestinians", who actually constitute just a minute fraction of the Arab nation that happens to live in the Land of Israel. Then there is (8) the need to repatriate refugees of the 1948 "Jewish aggression" (when, in fact, the Israelis were the victims of Arab aggression, fighting for their very physical survival against the armies of seven Arab countries).

The different expressions of Islamic Arab anti-Jewish animosity associated with the presence of Jews as an independent political entity in their ancient homeland (Jews continued to live there under foreign occupation since their loss of independence 2000 years ago), manifest a deep-seated anti-Jewish hatred shared by the majority of contemporary Muslims, especially orthodox ones. The large variety of explanations and excuses for this underlying Arab anti-Jewish hatred strongly suggests that none of those explanations or excuses is the genuine root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The true cause has remained undeclared most probably for political reasons. It must be discerned, therefore, from Islamic and Arab inherent rhetoric and behavior rather than from Arab propaganda aimed at and echoed by Western media.

Why should the presence of a small independent Jewish state in the Land of Israel be so objectionable to Muslims? Why do Arabs dream of elimination of all Jews between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean (some Arabs with the same end goal are ready "expeditiously" to conquer the Jewish state in stages, as they did to the Crusaders)?

Let us remember that a key Arab demand for any settlement of the conflict is the establishment of Jerusalem as an Arab capital. Let us remember that Arafat threatened that he is ready to sacrifice a million Palestinians as martyrs to conquer Jerusalem. Let us notice that the terrorist units of Arafat's Fatah party ("Conquest" in Arabic) are called "The al-Aqsa (Jerusalem's Temple Mount) Martyrs Brigades" and the prime terrorist units of the Iranian-Syrian sponsored "Islamic Jihad" (holy war in Arabic) organization, are called "The Al-Quds (Jerusalem) brigades." The conquest of Jerusalem is evidently the key target of Arab religious and/or political aspirations. Islam is a uniquely political religion, and so its religious and political objectives are inseparable. Therefore other "reasons" for Arab violent behavior are just a cover for this true goal of the Muslims.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is just one of many flash points in the global conflict between Islam and Western Civilization. However, symbolically it is probably the most critical one. The goal of the Muslims - spearheaded by the militant, conservative Wahabists - is to impose fundamental Islam on all of humanity by all means possible - including persuasion, deception, coercion or violence. Basically, Islam is a supremacist ideology that denies the validity, not to speak of equal status of other faiths, and mandates their eventual annihilation. The sovereignty of Muslims over Jerusalem is tantamount to proof of the supremacy of Islam over Judaism and Christianity. The believers in these two faiths are fatally flawed people according to the Qur'an - the Jews are subhuman beings, descendents of apes and pigs who must be killed, at least by the End of Days, whereas Christians are pagans who worship three gods, and are bound to be killed just like the Jews. Islamic sovereignty over Jerusalem is, therefore, symbolically a prerequisite of Islamic global sovereignty. This is the secret reason of the Arab assault on Israel. It is not being proclaimed to the Western public so as to sedate the Christian world until that prime goal is achieved.

The militant Muslims abuse the naivety of the Vatican that, notwithstanding the embarrassment of the Pope in Damascus, does not realize that Islam has changed since the days of the Ottoman Empire when coexistence of Islam and Christianity was possible. The Catholic Church, which hardly understood the spiritual meaning of Zionism in Judaism as well as in Christianity, for that matter, has not realized that sovereignty over Jerusalem by traditional Islamists negates all beliefs about the spiritual role of Jerusalem at the Christian or Jewish End of Days.

The belligerent Muslims in Arabia and Tehran manage to manipulate secular westerners who are insensitive to religion-motivated ideologies and do not care about the sovereignty of any religion over Jerusalem, and persuaded them to support the militant Islamic cause for political or economic reasons. Moreover, some atheistic westerners are even happy to see Jewish and Christian beliefs, strongly associated with Jerusalem, crushed.

Unfortunately, there are many secular Israelis who do not realize the symbolic value of Jerusalem in the current clash of civilizations, and are ready to concede the sovereignty over the "Holy City" to the mortal enemies of their own 3000 year-old culture.

In summary, the sovereignty over Jerusalem is the main motivation of Islamic violence against the Jews and the State of Israel. Unlike the sovereignty over Mecca or Medina, the sovereignty over Jerusalem is not essential for upholding or preservation of Islam as it is not even mentioned in the Qur'an; it is however needed as a proof of the supremacy of Islam, demonstrating Islam's ability to deprive Judaism and Christianity of their spiritual quintessence. This must be realized by the Israelis as well as by the West, which is founded on Judeo-Christian values. Loss of Jerusalem to supremacist Islam might herald the demise of Western civilization. The whole Western World must therefore defend, without compromise, the integrity of Jerusalem, the City of Peace, against the ongoing Islamic violent assault. Until the Muslims accept Jewish sovereignty over Jerusalem as part of the historical rights of the Jewish nation to its ancient homeland, there will be no peace in the Middle East. On the other hand, if the Muslims accept these premises regarding the Land of Israel, there is room for coexistence of Islam with Western civilization to the benefit of both.

http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?en...ws&enVersion=0&

[Sukhi]

Errr no, it's not. Most of the time these so called innocent bystanders are not so 'innocent'.

and u know this how...?

[palm_w1]

Check out this link and educate yourself. Plestinians are known to abuse their own young from day one.http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20934

thank you for trying to educate me on palestinian barbarity to their own children. I have read ur link and once again congratulate you on finding such a reliable source. An israeli website quoting the Israeli army. Most trustworthy and reliable. Also please try not to label all the palestinians with these accusations. tell me do all palestinians kill their children, its a wonder they manage to keep their population going when they kill all their babies as u claim.

Errr no, it's not. Most of the time these so called innocent bystanders are not so 'innocent'. Secondly what do you propose, let those Hamas people have a fiedl day in Israel?

Do u have evidence these people are 'mostly' not innocent. please do share it with the world. To control Hamas i propose Israel withdraws from all occupied terrotories and stops terrorising palestinians. then Hamas' grassroots support will stop and lead to the end of the organisation.

Ok, did you like foregt to take your regular prescription of Prozac?

no, i don't take prozac. Also do u refute that the IDF shoot dead little kids who throw stones at them? I will post some evidence for every1 to c if u like.

The tortured prisoners of S.Lebanon were actually tortured by the Lebanese Christians who were taking revenge againts these Islamos. As for Golan heights if I'm not mistaken, it was won in the last war between Israel against Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Vanunu is traitor to his country.

It was actually the israelis who tortured the lebanese there. i think the incident your referring to is when the current Israeli prime minister, Ariel 'washing powder' Sharon authorised christian militias to murder muslim civilians. Secondly the UN says the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights is illegal. Ironically in ur next point u use the fact that the UN recognises israel as proof of its validity. Why is the Golan Heights fair game? Vanunu is a traitor to his country but a hero to the world. He exposed Israels secret nuclear weapons program, a program they even lied to their greatest ally, the US about.

Hello! Have you heard of the UN? A country in todays world if recognised by the UN is considered a legitimate state.

Perhaps u shud be more specific when u post. world does not equal UN. Once again I reiterate hardly any states in the middle east region recognise Israel as a Government, country or nation.

You just don't seem to get now, do you? A terrorist is one who specifically targets women and children which Hamas and the PLO's Fatah movement have beein doing for ages. The IDF have never been involved in any attacks specifically against civilians.

yawn, once again i repeat, read the first post, the purpose of this thread is to define terrorism.

Arafat was born in Egypt. The only reason he is at the forfront at Palestinian politics was because his uncle Haj Amin Husseini was the former Mufti of Jerusalem. Read history, Haj Amin Husseini was offered to live side by side with the Jews under secular rule but he refused. Instead he proclaimed he wanted a Pleastine to be formed with harsh Islamic law implemented. Anyway here is a few links a to Arafats lineage.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/arafat.html

Once again i congratulate u on posting such an unbiased report. u r seriously deluding urself. the link u have posted to is an extreme right wing israeli think tank in the US. hardly a source of accurate information regarding the leader of a people they have vowed to destroy. arafats official website claims he was born in Jerusalem. http://www.p-p-o.com/Eng/2000/indexce.htm. i think this is a more reliable source of info. to be honest even even though he is born in Jerusalem i am not to concerned where he was born, it isn't that major an issue in my life.

Which planet are you living on? Islamabad is classified as a major ally for political purposes just like how China too is considered an ally dumbo. The terrorist that are being sponsored by Pakistan does not effect the US but Pakistans neighbour India.

So what r u saying, the US is supporting terrorist regimes? by your logic if they are declaring Pakistan an ally and pakistan is commiting terrorism the US is supporting terrorism. Quite a quagmire.

This is my challenge to you, show me when and where a Palestinian history or civilization ever existed?

Thanks for the challenge but no thanks. u obviously have a lot of time but i have a life to live outside this forum and can't be bothered to research middle eastern history from thousands of years ago. my concern is with the current evil being commited by the israelis against innocent civilians, not who populated the area 5000 years ago.

Please read this article and enlighten yourself.

http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?en...ws&enVersion=0&

again thanks for the unbiased article, israeliinsider.com sounds like another reputable news source, i think CNN had better watch out. also interesting to note that the article states: "Loss of Jerusalem to Islam might herald the demise of Western civilization." HA HA HA. I assume that was supposed to be funny, How would giving back one city that rightfully belongs to the palestinians (nb palestinians, i am not saying muslims) bring about the downfall of western civilisation. also it is only the israelis who want this city, not western civilisation as the article claims. Please don't confuse the 2. I have a serious request, please stop wasting my time and the time of others by posting such articles. they are so biased they make u look like a laughing stock.

[Beast]

Rachel Corrie

--> stood in front of a bulldozer that was about to destroy a house. She was unmercifully crushed. There was a documentary on Channel 4 (UK) about her death - I only caught the last 15 minutes. Her parents had gone to the scene of her death to talk with some of the Palestinians. There, the TV crew interview a woman whose home had been recently bulldozed to the ground. She told the reporters and Rachel Corrie's parents that Israeli soldiers came the house. Only women were present, but the soldiers did not care. Rachel's parents then went to the actual spot of her death with special permission from the Israelis. There lived a doctor with his family who Rachel had been staying with for a few days. Whilst there a bulldozer actually started making its way to the very same house that the television crew and Rachel's parents were in! Frantic calls to the US Embassy averted a potential embarrasment for the Israelis.

The Israelis claimed that the bulldozing was required for 'smoothing' the ground over to stop snipers gaining any vantage points. Rachel's father, who was actually in command of a bulldozing team whilst in Vietnam, claimed that the area that they wanted to bulldoze could be accomplished in just a week. Rachel died in 2003.

In conclusion, this war houses many victims on both sides: victims of suicide bombers and victims of Israelis soldiers.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Statement_...rrie_031703.htm

[Jamuka]

thank you for trying to educate me on palestinian barbarity to their own children. I have read ur link and once again congratulate you on finding such a reliable source. An israeli website quoting the Israeli army.

And this is coming from a joker who quotes the BBC, what a joke. I'd rather put my money with Israeli news agencies as opposed to even British ones. So far two of your major media (BBC and the Daily Mirror) have been involved in scandals.

Do u have evidence these people are 'mostly' not innocent. please do share it with the world. To control Hamas i propose Israel withdraws from all occupied terrotories and stops terrorising palestinians. then Hamas' grassroots support will stop and lead to the end of the organisation.

I don't have 'hard evidence' but I have read before of civilians covering up for terrorists. Besides, we all now that fanatic Muslims will lie at any cost to further their couse. If you want to believe otherwise be my guest.

no, i don't take prozac. Also do u refute that the IDF shoot dead little kids who throw stones at them? I will post some evidence for every1 to c if u like.

Go ahead and post them. I'm a strong advocate of freedom of speech. Truth must not be hidden because of biases.

It was actually the israelis who tortured the lebanese there. i think the incident your referring to is when the current Israeli prime minister, Ariel 'washing powder' Sharon authorised christian militias to murder muslim civilians.

Nope, you're wrong. If you're referring to Sabra and Shattilla, you're dead wrong. It is one of histories biggest lies.

Secondly the UN says the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights is illegal. Ironically in ur next point u use the fact that the UN recognises israel as proof of its validity. Why is the Golan Heights fair game? Vanunu is a traitor to his country but a hero to the world. He exposed Israels secret nuclear weapons program, a program they even lied to their greatest ally, the US about.

When it suits you, you quote the UN. The very same UN that has recognised Israel as a state. Are by any chance biased?

As for Golan Heights, why don't you educate all of us here and tell us how did Israel accupy the Golan Heights? How did it come to be part of Israel? Please educate all of us here.

Vanunu is a traitor to his nation and is nobody's friend. But then again, it takes 'one theif to recognize another'?

As for Israel's nuclear weapon, what would you propose when you have 3 neighbours who have initiated two wars so far to exterminate you? Only a fool would rely on the UN. Technically you are right Israel has broken any treaty not to undertake a nuclear weapons program, morally you are wrong to deny a fledgling state the right to defend itself. As for lying to the US, why should it concern you since you hate them so much? Just to make a cheap point, you are willing to whore your own values and use the US being an ally to Israel as an example. Again I ask, are you biased in any way?

Perhaps u shud be more specific when u post. world does not equal UN. Once again I reiterate hardly any states in the middle east region recognise Israel as a Government, country or nation.

Hello dumbo, a country is deemed legitimate when it is recognised by the UN which is what the Khalistani movementtrying to do as well. And as for the Middle East, they can kiss their Israeli neighbours backside for all the Israelis care about their supposed 'approval'.

yawn, once again i repeat, read the first post, the purpose of this thread is to define terrorism.

Of which I have done so many times.

Once again i congratulate u on posting such an unbiased report. u r seriously deluding urself. the link u have posted to is an extreme right wing israeli think tank in the US.

I trust sources from the US more then any source from the UK. Need I reiterate that two of your major media have been involved in scandals so far? Have you no shame?

i think this is a more reliable source of info. to be honest even even though he is born in Jerusalem i am not to concerned where he was born, it isn't that major an issue in my life.

Rubbish! He is an Egyptian and I actually learn this through a class. I actually took a 3 credit class on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and mind you, my professor was an Iranian. If you want to believe in fairy tales, be my guest.

i think this is a more reliable source of info. to be honest even even though he is born in Jerusalem i am not to concerned where he was born, it isn't that major an issue in my life.

BTW from the website you quoted....

"Led the heroic battle against the invasion of Lebanon and the battle of steadfastness during the siege of Beirut by the Israeli forces."

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!! What a joke!!! Lebanon was sponsoring the PLO which they paid dearly.

BTW have you heard of the event 'Black September'? Your beloved Arafat and the PLO tried invading Jordan AFTER they were given hospitality by the royalty of Jordan. Talk about biting the 'hand that feeds you'.

So what r u saying, the US is supporting terrorist regimes? by your logic if they are declaring Pakistan an ally and pakistan is commiting terrorism the US is supporting terrorism. Quite a quagmire.

You truly exhibit a very warped mentality. If the US were to employ a foreign policy not to befriend any nation that is morally questionable, they would be literally freindless. Don't you even have a basic understanding of politics? Allies and pacts are formed to serve a common need. For example during the 2nd world war, the Russians were considered an ally for the Americans but does that mean Americans now support communism? The pact was formed to counter a common threat which was the rise of Nazi Germany.

Thanks for the challenge but no thanks. u obviously have a lot of time but i have a life to live outside this forum and can't be bothered to research middle eastern history from thousands of years ago. my concern is with the current evil being commited by the israelis against innocent civilians, not who populated the area 5000 years ago.

Then don't come here and tell us all that Israel is a terrorist state when you obviously don't even know your basics. pen your eyes, read a little. Don't simply take a side.

"Loss of Jerusalem to Islam might herald the demise of Western civilization." HA HA HA. I assume that was supposed to be funny, How would giving back one city that rightfully belongs to the palestinians (nb palestinians, i am not saying muslims) bring about the downfall of western civilisation.

Tell me how does Jerusalem belongs to the so called 'Palestinians'? Do you know that during the 50's it was the Jews who were referred as the Palsetinians dmbo? How is an ancient Israeli city that belonged to the Jews become the property of Palestinians when in fact there never was a Palestinian civilisation in history ever?

also it is only the israelis who want this city, not western civilisation as the article claims. Please don't confuse the 2. I have a serious request, please stop wasting my time and the time of others by posting such articles. they are so biased they make u look like a laughing stock.

In your entire BS of a post which is full of factual errors, you have finally gotten one thing partially right, it is the Jews who want Jerusalem. Jerusalem to the Jews is what Amritsar is to the Sikhs. It is mentioned like a millions times in the Bible (OT). But as I said, partially....The Christians too hold Jerusalem dear to their hearts. But unfortunately for the rest of the sane world, the Muslims too want it! Nowhere , not even a single time is it mentioned in the Koran yet these Camel Jockeys lay claim to something that was never theirs in the first place.

Muhammad apparently had a dream that he ascended heaven on his horse El Burakh over Jerusalem when he met God. After Muhammad died under the rule of Caliph Omar the Muslims INVADED Jerusalem and the rest of Israel.

As for laughing stock, can I suggets you to buy a mirror?

[palm_w1]

This is going to be my final post replying to Jamuka's fascist ramblings. You obviously find it very difficult to grasp the concept of an impartial and unbiased news source. The BBC for all its faults is far more reliable than an Israeli Govt sponsored think tank. I guess you will start quoting from 'Mein Kampf' as your next impartial source.

You openly admit u have no hard evidence but base it on the fact that they are muslim so must thus be 'not so innocent'. Yet u still have the audacity to claim history is a lie, every1 knows and even the Israelis openly admit Sharon turned a blind eye to the lebanese christian massacres of the lebanese muslims. I do recognise that some Palestinians commit terrorism but that doesn't justify Israeli Govt terror. Almost everything u say is either a lie or highly biased. I suggest all readers read Jamukas posts carefully and make their own judgement.

From ur posts i can see u r becoming more and more frustrated and abusive in ur language. May i suggest u relieve urself somewhat, i am sure u will find some suitable material on the net if u google 'bush' and 'nude' together. I sincerely hope u find what u are looking for in life, perhaps some sort of 'utopian' fascist society like hitlers third reich. Long may u enjoy dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese civilians and revel in the glory of your achievements.

http://www.whtt.org/rpr/021011.htm

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Israeli_Tr...hoot_042503.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in...onflict/nun.stm

From now i will not reply to ur posts as i can see u becoming very abusive and possibly threatening the more ur frustration grows.

[palm_w1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from...ent/3562938.stm

[Beast]

^ Thats just awful.