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Raag-malla Debate once again on panthik level...

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Guest Javanmard

Again I can only re-iterate the fact that one has to carefully differenciate between the four sampradays created or blessed by the Gurus and the jathas, groups created by human beings.

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I take it you don't beleive in Bhagat Kabir Ji's Bani either then :LOL:

From seeing angels of death [fearing death] now I see but Ram [Ramachandar/Nirankar God].

My suffering has fled and comfort taken abode [in my heart].

Those denying God [the five senses], have become noble [having acknowledged Nirankar God].

Now I have attained complete bliss.

I have been cooled [mind settled] when I appreciated Gobind [God].

In the body are found innumerable troubles.

Now, spontaneously in comfort, I am absorbed in God.

I have recognized my true self.

Now no ailment of the three fevers affects me.

Now my mind has changed and become Sanatan.

Now I appreciate [Truth] having died whilst alive [meaning being unaffected by temptations of the world].

Says Kabir, in comfort spontaneously be absorbed in God.

I fear no one, nor am I intimidated by anyone.’

(‘Adi Guru Durbar’, Raag Gauri, Pa.326-327)

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Guest Maha_Pavitar

Just for reference..I found another document listing how Raag Mala is not bani.


Here is the summary of their points:

i. Raag Mala was not composed by any of the Gurus.

ii. It was not a part of the original Bir compiled by Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, nor of the Damdami Bir.

iii. Raag Mala is part of Madhavanal Kandala written by the Muslim poet Alam, about twenty-one years before the original Bir was compiled.

iv. There are a number of raags in Sri Guru Granth Sahib which are not included in Raag Mala and vice versa.

v. The meticulous uniform system of numbering of all the Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, has not been used in Raag Mala. Raag Mala has no system of numbering as each portion has been numbered as one (1) which reveals nothing and is confusing.

vi. There is no mention of the name of the composer anywhere as against the procedure employed in the rest of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

vii. In some of the handwritten Birs there exist a number of other extraneous writings, including Raag Mala. When all other compositions have been rejected it is not understood why this composition, which was at the end, has been retained.

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Guest Sardar Moderator Singh


Here's the real IDOL-SMASHER...get back to the topic at hand and stop bleating on with the usual "tu-tu-ma-ma" that appears as soon as a subject gets beyond copying and pasting other people's work or goes against your personal views howsoever they may be supported by Sant or Scholarly figures.

RAAGMALA...that's what this thread concerns...let's get back to it: please start a new thread to discuss Sanatan vs Tat Khalsa and other similar topics.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 year later...

this debate will forever be on going.

the only reason why this arguement started was due to Teja singh Bhasaur who was a puppet of the british brought foreward to split the sikhs.

will put on raag mala katha by Baba Sukhchen Singh Ji soon which was done in Leicester some time ago. Also Raag mala Katha by Baba Jagjit Singh Ji harkhowalae and Baba Hari Singh Ji Rhandawa Walae.

Those who do not believe Raag mala should not pay their respects to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it only makes them hypocrites paying respect to something they believe is false.

kam veer ji, do you still have the katha of ragmalla by sant baba jagjit singh ji harkhowale and baba hari singh ji randhawaley. if you do please hook it up, upload it on gurmatveechar.com or keertan.org.

It be much appreciated.

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Neo i dont have the katha at present but will get it again. i suggest listening to the raag mala katha on gurmatveechar.com by sant kartar singh ji bhindrawalae, sant jarnail singh ji bhindrawalae, sant pooran singh ji delhi walae, bhai harjinder singh ji damdami taksal.

the katha by sant pooran singh ji is the best out of the lot and you get deep meanings for raag mala

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Guest SAdmin

There are two or three great debates on this topic on our forum.

1. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3833 ( Guest who is responding in this debate is Bhai Amritpal Singh "Amrit" of www.amritworld.com. His ID was corrupted, so we had to delete but we want to give him credit for his efforts in that debate)

2. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=8376

3. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=619

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happy unfortunately i am not aware of the book by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji about the Raagmala. The only two pieces of work i have of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji is the Katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Steek 1 and Gurmukh Parkash which is the life story of Baba Sundar Singh Ji Bhindrawalae.

I am not aware of any other book. The one book released by Damdami Taksal that you may be referring to is 'Raagmala Bani Hai.'

This is a debate that will never see unity i guess. Those who belive will and those who dont wont. Unfortunatly i think no matter how much you try to pursuade a person to understand your views on the Raagmala their will always be doubters.

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that is true kam1835 this is why i am askimg javanmard to provode evidence of the great akali baba deep singhs gutka containing ragmala if this is the case then it will prove to be intereseting, one needs to varifiy and study knowledge in oreder to obtain the truth

thanks for the reply anyway

peace out :D :D :D :D

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I was reading the topic of bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji admitted that ragmalla is bani on tapoban,

Found respond by kulbir singh interesting...especially stuff in bold, like to get some confirmation in this.

It’s totally absurd to think that Bhai Sahib admitted to Raagmala being baani in secret but did not admit it in front of Singhs out of the fear that they will lose faith in him.

It is further ludicrous to imagine that Bhai Sahib got impressed with the deep meanings of Raagmala that Sant Gurbachan Singh jee told Bhai Sahib. I have read these meanings and they absolutely make no sense and are totally meaningless. Bhai Sahib who was a master of Gurbani Viyakaran, could have not got impressed with these meanings since they are against Grammar and even simple human logic.

Bhai Sahib would have never felt ashamed if he had realised his mistake of not reading Raagmala all his life. Bhai Sahib was a man enough to admit his mistake. The fact of the matter is that such conversation never took place between Sant jee and Bhai Sahib. Sant jee and Bhai Sahib respected each other despite this minor difference.

During the times of Bhai Sahib, he was not the most prominent opponents of Raagmala. At that time Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha and Bhai Shamsher Singh Ashok were leading the movement against Raagmala. Who in Panth could have dared to talk in front of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha? Ordinary so called gyanis used to tremble before him. Pandit jee was an ocean of knowledge and many scholars of that time had been his students at some point in life. If Sant Gurbachan Singh had to resolve to issue of Raagmala, he would have gone to convince Pandit jee and his group of scholars and not Bhai Sahib who was not leading the movement against Raagmala. Once Sant Amir Singh of Taksal tried but lost miserably to Pandit jee.

Rumours like this one are lurking within Taksal for long time. Another one of the rumour is that during his end days, Bhai Sahib was suffering a lot and requested Sant Gurbachan Singh to save him. Sant jee asked him to admit his mistake of Raagmala and only then he was released from the suffering. Such a bogus story this is. Total nonsense. Dr Tarlochan Singh was there during the last moments of Bhai Sahib and he has written how peaceful Bhai Sahib was. He was in total bliss and had no suffering.

Another absurd story about Bhai Sahib is that when Bhai Sahib tried to enter Sach Khand after passing away, doors were shut on him because he did not read Raagmala. These jokers who make up these stories don’t know that Bhai Sahib was a resident of Sach Khand right while living. Who could have denied him Sach Khand after leaving this body?

Don’t believe such stories. Bhai Sahib stayed in Chardi Kala till his last days on this planet and he never admitted Raagmala to be baani.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh

who is pandit kartar singh? is he a nirmala? if yes, then is he nirmal panchyati akhara?

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  • 1 year later...

This discussion is a waste of time. The AKJ will always deny Raagmala as Gurbani and have their own takes on what constitutes Kakkars etc etc.

Good for them and glad it helps them on their path.

What we are concerned with is Sikhism, the AKJ are free to follow whatever they like - the Sikh Rehit Maryada, in the tradition of tolerance exemplified by the Sikh Gurus and several Sikhs thereafter through today, even accomodates their peculiarities regarding subjects such as Keski, Ragamala, Vegetarianism etc, however the AKJ in their typical intolerant and authoritarian attitude cannot even accept the rest of us as "sikhs" - it is a laughable.

The debate is useless, Sikhs simply need to protect the Sikh Rehit Maryada from infiltrators such as the AKJ (who most Sikhs are quite happy to let live) and ensure that young impressionable Sikhs are not misled into loosing faith in Gurbani or the tradition by the false propaganda of groups like the AKJ.

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