Sampooran Dasam Granth Sahib Ji

[Hari]

Gur Ishar Gur Gorakh Barma Gur Parbati Mai - Jap Ji Sahib

The "Khalsa" Fauj, ever thought that your thinking is going against the Great Divine Mother, who made you and gave birth to you.That you are fanatically macho in going against the Jagat Mata.You got a problem with Eka Mai?Then I feel very sorry for you.

Because when She slaps Her insolent children, boy does it hurt, in this life and lives to come.She can cause such suffering and pain to those who insult Her.

Do not insult Her.Acknowledge Her and praise Her as Satguru Nanak Nirankar did.I wonder if TKF will understand what I have said.

Jai Sarsvati!Jai Lakhsmi!Jai Parvati Mai!

[HeyDudesWassup]

Hari,

Are you reffering to the Divine Father/Mother (1 God)? I'm just asking becuase the Novus spiritus movement believes in both Father God and a Mother God.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

That is mata not jagmaata. There is a difference. It is not your fault for believing in this. It is Guru Ji's bachan so you believing in jagmaat is not a suprise.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear Khalsa Fauj,

Please provide your views on the points raised earlier in the last 5 or so posts on each extract so that the forum may better understand your thoughts.

Thanks,

SMS

[challenge_everything]

Khalsa Fauj can you come up with some textual evidence please.

[sukhsingh]

would someone answer his questions? all ive heard is insults going that way.

[gsingh00]

edit

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

sukh_singh and gurpreet singh,

Khalsa Fauj has had this points addressed, I again post the relevant matters for ALL to consider in order for this to be a fruitful discussion:-

Khalsa Fauj and others, please consider the following with regard to the discussion on the ending stanzas of the Sampuran Kabio Bach Benti Chaupai and the points you raise:

1. Jugmata -What are everyone's views on the following extracts of the Nitnem, which I trust we can all agree is GURBANI:

-“Eka Mai Jugat Viaee” –from JapJi Sahib

-“Namo...lok mata” –from Jaap Sahib

-"Har Jee Pita, Har Jee Mata" from the Anand Sahib

2. Is the celebrating of Gurprubs (which even Bhai Gurdas Jee makes reference to in his Varan) incorrect, as we supposedly do not belive in ‘special’ days? Why do we celebrate with so much pomp the GurGaddi of the Guru Granth Sahib (i.e. its completion and formal inauguration)? Which asks, why would Guru Sahib choose the date of Vaisakhi for the Amrit Sanchar? Moreover why do we hold this day in reverence? More generally, is it wrong to celebrate our birthdays?

3. Finally according to the Jap Ji Sahib pauris “Sunia Sidh Pir sur Nath...”, it would literally mean having anyone ‘listen’ to the Naam who automatically become a Sidh, a Pir, a Nath, a master of Yoga, have knowledge of the earth and skies, feel no pain or illness, become a god like indra or bhrama, become an emperor etc etc.

These effectively answer all of Khalsa Fauj's doubts when addressed and moreover are not too far from the santhiya that the Taksal will provide in this respect.

"Jagmata" can be ascertained from point 1 above.

The reason that Khalsa Fauj has given for the exclusion of these lines by the SGPC for the "minimal" rehit a Sikh should follow are incorrect, it is not concerning any paranoia over Sanatanist Hindu angles, but simply that "they" view these two lines and the Arill and Chaupai as being "references" for the actually bani.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

So, 'The Khalsa Fauj', were the Gurus were off their rocker when they celebrated festivals such as Vaisakhi, Holla Mohalla, Diwali (..or "Bandi Shor" as "Panthic" Sikhs call it), Navratra, Dussera, Gurpurbs, Massia, Pooranmashi, Holi, etc that fell on SPECIAL DAYS?

Who said Guru Sahib Ji celebrated navratra, dussera, massia, pooranmashi, holi?

How is disrespecting Guru Ji by making them celebrate brahmnical teohaars?

Celebrating navratra, dussera, massia, pooranmashi, holi, etc. are hindu festivals. Sikhs don't celebrate them. Only hindus or vipran kee reetees do it. Not Sikhs. Go check out the Akal Takht maryada at SGPC.net.

Jub eh ghay vipran kee reet Mai naa karoo in kee parteet

so this is the case now. Sikhs are slaves of hindus because of people like you guys. Who backstab for personal benefits.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Answer the questions about chariters that i have posted. Only Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru, not any akhauti granth such as dasam granth or sarbloh granth.

As for dasam granth, it was brought into our panth by Malcolm to cause division. He said that Guru Nanak's mission was not to fight and said Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sikhs are the ones that fight. He said Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave 5 shashter instead of five Ks'. This is what a professor was telling on Gurbani program.

Until we don't clean up the garbage from dasam granth, there willl be no Khalistan as their won't be unity until it is cleaned up.

Please refrain from inslting the Dasam Granth regardless if you find it not fitting in your views. I am most certain God has given you the ability to express your views in a professional manner. Please make use of that Gift. We are not censoring you from presenting your view, but please do so in a respectfull manner. You have been fore-warned.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Guru Ji will also not no our parteet, no parteet from Guru Ji means no Khalistan.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

If you are going to celebrate navratra, dussera, massia, pooranmashi, holi then put on a janju. What is the use of putting on a kirpan then? Only one reason, which is RSS.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Some of you guys won't get Mukti this lifetime for sure.

[Morpheous]

Thank you Guru ji.

[Morpheous]

Until we don't clean up the garbage from dasam granth, there willl be no Khalistan as their won't be unity until it is cleaned up.

Thats your opinion.

But in my view, it think there is a need to clean up the garbage in the minds of some people first.

Especially those who have the nerve to call Guru Ji's bani 'garbage', without scientifically or even historically disproving it.

RSS !?!- not needed with 'faujis' like you in the panth.

Kind Regards

Harps

[The Khalsa Fauj]

What proff do you need? Go to any university in Punjab and they will give you all the proofs you need. Look for professors. Biggest proff is all the differnet versions. There is no mention of Dasam Granth in old rehatnamas. Malcolm was the first one to call it dasam paatshah kaa granth. later it became dasma granth with thanks to people like you guys. Even Akal Takht says charitter is not Gurbani.

[SAadmin]

Ok guys, please stick to the topic.

Can someone actually answer the questions that The Khalsa Fauj asked.

I have full faith in sampooran dasam granth . I think its bani but for ethical debate purposes we requesting answers to Khalsa Fauj questions(only questions with sense) and requesting Khalsa Fauj to answers that were raised by other members.

If one cannot engage themselves in intellectual debate then its best to avoid the topic all together.

[Niranjana]

What proff do you need? Go to any university in Punjab and they will give you all the proofs you need. Look for professors. Biggest proff is all the differnet versions. There is no mention of Dasam Granth in old rehatnamas. Malcolm was the first one to call it dasam paatshah kaa granth. later it became dasma granth with thanks to people like you guys. Even Akal Takht says charitter is not Gurbani.

Dear Khalsa Fauj,

A few questions, have you actually read the Dasam Granth? Internal evidence links all the compositions to one author -Guru Gobind Singh.

As per your assertion that no old rehitnamas refer to it, perhaps you should read the works of Kesar Singh Chibber who was, with the exception of Kavi Sainapati, was perhaps an individual more closely linked to the Guru Darbar than most of the authors of the latter rehitnamas.

His works in Banasivalanama, clearly point to the use of the Dasam Granth.

As per the Akal Thakt directive, it is again typically sitting on the fence as a means to bind Panthic Unity, just as they do with the Raagmala issue. The interesting thing is that they do not go without the Kabhio Bach Benti Chaupai bani which is part of the Charitropakhyan Granth, yet are quick to speak ill of the latter -somewhat like yourself, unless you wish to clarify your position on Benti Chaupai.

I have spoken of this elsewhere before and more recently on Sikh Sangat, bodies like IOSS who actively disown the Charitropakhyan Granth are interesting to observe, since the key individuals within these bodies actually are suffering from the wordly issues and plagues described in the Charitars when one looks at what happens in their families and social circles -which is exactly what these banis aim to address.

Finally on the cutting short of the Chaupai Sahib Path by the SGPC/Akal Thakt and the Rehras, I have often in the past spoken against this move, however would like to, upon closer reflection restate my personal statement on this front to avoid confusion.

It has been for some time my personal belief that the closing stanzas of the Chaupai ("Kirpa Kari Hum Par Jagmata...") and the subsequent Arill and Chaupai were omitted by the SGPC owing to their paranoia and misunderstanding of the term Jagmata and reference to the Charitars.

Upon closer reflection, I am of the opinion that this was not originally the case and this issue was taken up by the Taksal, Nihangs and others to undermine the SGPC, whereas in reality all they did was to omit these lines, as they considered them to be "references" to the paath and to the Granth, not the Chaupai Sahib paath itself.

The choice not to recite is not necessarily the same as denial, otherwise the recitation of only 5 verses of the Jap Ji or Anand Sahib, as done when commencing a Sehaj Path or concluding any ceremony, respectively, would also need to be viewed in the same light.

This much said, I told true to my view that the present incumbents of the SGPC and Akal Thakt are in fact continuing to maintain this omission because they ARE in fact paranoid and DO misunderstand the meanings of these lines and fail to accept Dasam Bani, just like our anti-Dasam Granth crusadar "KHALSA" Fauj!

There can be NO Khalsa without the Dasam Granth!

[challenge_everything]

Well said niranjana!

[Narsingha]

Dasam Guru Durbar was kept in the Akal Takht since Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Sewa Panthi's time, and was only removed from there in 1941 by the SGPC.

Dasam Guru Durbar was also present in the Amrit Sanchars conducted in the institution today known popularly as "Dam Dami Taksal" (during Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa's time).

[The Khalsa Fauj]

There was Khalsa before dasam granth as dasam granth was first compiled at end of 18th century. There was no dasam granth before. Guru Gobind Singh Ji bowed in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and gave GuruShip. Not to any dasam or sarbloh. There are many different versions of dasam granth. Saying that dasm granth was first complied by Bhai Mani Singh is a pure lie. This is often used by dasam granth followers. Dasam Granth was placed in Gurudwaras when Sikhs went into jungles and mahants and udasis took control over Gurudwaras. Brahmans had a lot of time so they used it to write literature such as portions of dasam granth and make a granth and defame the Guru and make them look like worshippers of godesses. This way it would make it easy for them to say we are a sect of hindus and finish off Sikhism just like they did to Buddhism in india. Unfortunately, our people, under the influence of personal benefits and egos, don't understand these tactics as are calling these brahmanical contents as Gurbani.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

As for Gurbachan Singh, he also said that Akal Takht maryada is the real one. He said taksal maryada is only for the dera.

[Niranjana]

Dear "Khalsa" Fauj, please consider the following:-

There was Khalsa before dasam granth as dasam granth was first compiled at end of 18th century. There was no dasam granth before.

"KHALSA" Fauj, your understanding of my comment here, displays why others like you who oppose the Dasam Granth do so, the sheer inability to look beyond the ‘literal’.

I am fully aware that the Khalsa Panth is regarded to have been in existence prior to the formal compilation of the Dasam Granth, however this is exactly the same for Sikhi –there were Sikhs prior to the formal compilation of the Guru Grant Sahib and they used the Mool Mantar and the Jap Ji. Similarly, the Khalsa Panth requires use of 3 Banis from the Dasam Granth, two of which come from the compositions that anti-Dasam Granth supporters like you have issues with namely, Akal Ustat and the Charitropakhyan. This is why I stated there can be NO Khalsa without the Dasam Granth, just like there can be no Sikhs without the Guru Granth Sahib, even though the former existed prior to the first compilation of the latter.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji bowed in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and gave GuruShip. Not to any dasam or sarbloh.

We are not discussing “guruship” here, this is a separate topic and a thread I believe already exists to this effect (re: should we do parkash of Dasam Granth).

There are many different versions of dasam granth.

The same is also true of the Guru Granth Sahib prior to the standardisation exercise conducted to arrive at the present day version. Even then, we have the legacy of the Teja Singh Bhasauria inspired Sikhs who have issue with parts like Raagmala, it is in the same vein as Bhasauria, that the anti-Dasam Granth proponents air their flawed agenda. Moreover, even today, if one goes to the district surrounding Patna Sahib, one will find the Guru Granth Sahib saroops are more aligned with the Bhai Banno vali Bir (this is also a separate topic, which we can have elsewhere, it is mentioned here to illustrate the point).

Saying that dasm granth was first complied by Bhai Mani Singh is a pure lie. This is often used by dasam granth followers.

This is far from being a lie, ample evidence as such that provided by Kesar Singh Chibbar is testimony to this fact. So too are the letters provided to Bhai Mani Singh Shaheed by the wife of Guru Sahib.

Dasam Granth was placed in Gurudwaras when Sikhs went into jungles and mahants and udasis took control over Gurudwaras. Brahmans had a lot of time so they used it to write literature such as portions of dasam granth and make a granth and defame the Guru and make them look like worshippers of godesses.

This is this actual lie. There is no evidence to support this claim, it is simply speculation by anti-Dasam Granth proponents like all Sikhs who live continuously with a deep seated paranoia of Hinduism to justify anything that does not ‘fit in their little box what they term Sikhi’ as the works of Brahmins right down to the monuments erected in memory of the wives of Guru Sahib, which no doubt according to these conspiracy theorists was built by the Brahmins in their white dhotis!

A “Mahant” is a title, i.e. leader or elder, not a sect as is made out by many modern day writers. The role of the Udasis and Nirmalas was ordained by the Khalsa themselves, they did not ‘takeover’ control of the Gurdwaras! This nonsense that Guru Sahib worshipped goddesses is the works of the stupidity of Sikhs, who fail to read and understand things beyond literal meanings, NO WHERE in the Dasam Granth or anywhere else has Guru Sahib worshipped any goddess or god, failure to understand this basic point is what leads to so called “Khalsa” Singhs of today to vilify the celestial writings of Guru Sahib as mere stories, fairy tale, pornography and other such rambings.

This way it would make it easy for them to say we are a sect of hindus and finish off Sikhism just like they did to Buddhism in india.

This is a flawed argument used by paranoid Sikhs many times. Buddhism continues to grow as a world religion independently of Hinduism the world over, including in India, particularly in the Southern Hemisphere, where their numbers are quite large and also in the extreme Northern parts. If one reads and UNDERSTANDS the Dasam Granth properly, it is actually very easy to chose quite to the contrary, i.e. Dasam Bani amply proves that Sikhs are NOT any sect.

Unfortunately, our people, under the influence of personal benefits and egos, don't understand these tactics as are calling these brahmanical contents as Gurbani.

The unfortunate aspect is in fact those people who call themselves Sikhs and even “Khalsa” yet speak against and disown the bani of Guru Gobind Singh and even refer to them as the works of Brahmins purely “under the influence of personal benefits and egos”

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

The letter you are talking about were proven to be from early 1800s. The leeter have the use of Aadhuk, bindi and the words are not connnected.

There is only one version of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There is only debate about raagmaala. Nothing else, if yes what? As for speelings, it is possible to make a mistake or 2. There is no debate on what is bani and what is not except raagmaala.

What benefit am I going to have from this?

What benefit?

As for these dasam granth followers, their benefit is fooling people, making them join, them and build deras so they could live richly without moving a leaf.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

The letter you are talking about were proven to be from early 1800s. The leeter have the use of Aadhuk, bindi and the words are not connnected.

There is only one version of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There is only debate about raagmaala. Nothing else, if yes what? As for speelings, it is possible to make a mistake or 2. There is no debate on what is bani and what is not except raagmaala.

What benefit am I going to have from this?

What benefit?

As for these dasam granth followers, their benefit is fooling people, making them join, them and build deras so they could live richly without moving a leaf.