Lahore Ahmadi Muslims

[Guest Javanmard]

No doubt they would!!! Some groups have done so much taqiyah that they have forgotten about who they really are. Just as some Udasi group who , in order to avoid the SGPC taling over their deras, pretended to be Hindus and within two generation would laugh at the idea that they are in fact Sikhs!!! :wink:

[tSingh]

Y'know what, I can see the link philosophically and I agree that influence is very strong. But I could also argue that they trace back to diogenes and other pre-islamic philosophers, as their influence is just as strong. I have heard Sufis with my own ears state that they go back to before Islam itself.

So to clarify, by saying all sufis are shia do you mean that in principle they descend from a philsophy that is heavily influenced by Shia thought, therefore SHOULD be categorised as Shia?

Then what I am saying is that many sufis, now and throughout history have lived, breathed, eaten sunni islam in the sense that they identify themselves as sunnis, even if the premise of tassuwuf is that standard sunni islam must be transcended to begin the process of lifting veils.

So we are talking about what is the case in principle, against what is the case in practice?

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear TSingh, I am not saying that ALL Sufis are Shi'as. I am just saying that:

1. Most tariqas go back to Imam 'Ali (as) and have a Shi'a origin. The Naqshbandi for example go back to Abu Bakr and have incidentally been involved in the persecution of other Sufis, Shi'as and...Sikhs!

The tariqa's that go back to Imam Ali (as) and that are Sunni on the exterior have conserved the structure of Shi'a Imamology. The notion of qutb goes back to Shi'ism. We are now faced with two positions: either sone Sufis just pretend to be Sunnis or they have forgotten about their origins and are practising a Sunni-fied version of Shi'a mysticism.

2. For the first case there have been examples of orders who were at the beginning "Sunni" but in favorable times revealed themselves as being Shi'a. The Kubrawiya and the Nihmatullahis are the best examples. Also let us not forget that this was possible because Nur Ali Shah had brought about a Shi'a state in Iran and was called "Sufi". Some Sufi shrines in Pakistan have done the same declaring themselves officially Shi'a after centuries of hiding in the Sunni world. Look at Lal Shabhaz Qalandar, his name was Uthman (typical Sunni name) but his whole order is Shi'a and the veneration of the Ahlu ul Bayt is part of the order and they are ithnashari Shi'a! Many Sufi shrines who pretend to be Sunni have Shi'a symbology included in their architecture that only SHi'a can recognise. These shrines that still do taqiyah do secretly curse the false califs on Muharram and mourn Imam Hussain (as).

3. Or there is the second case of orders that have just forgotten about their origins.

4. The case of Iban Arabi remains very interesting and is still controversial. Yes he mentions Abu Bakr and Umar in his writings and criticises the Shi'as but... these could be just "cosmetics" to hide the fact that he has re-created the Shi'a Imamology in his writings. Also he says he was initiated by Khidhr. In the sermons of Imam Ali (as) it is clearly specified that the Imam is Khidhr.