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Shift in Philosphy of Sikhism after Guru Arjun Dev


Does this theory make any sense???  

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The Mool Mantra of Sikhisim contained in the Bani of First 5 and 9th Guru.

There seems to be a shift in the philoshphy of Sikhisim after Guru Arjun Dev.

As my knowledge go the 9th Guru are of the same time as of Guru Arjun Dev so hence his teaching reflect the same Philosphy.

Does it sound right or wrong?

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

All the Gurus were one jot. Its true that every jot of Guru Sahibaan had a new message, but I'd say the basic philosophy in essence was the same. None of the first 5 Gurus advocated non-violence, but never picked up arms either, as that was to be done by the sixth and tenth Gurus. The 6th, 7th and 8th Gurus' Bani is not recorded in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB, but that doesn't make their message unimportant either.

bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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There is nothing new in this question

It is a new question as I've not read the work of any Scholar to reach this conclusion. If there is a suspicion in my mind by just going through the Sikh history then it seems a very valid question.

The teaching of the early Guru's have been to peacefully practice the Jaap of Waheguru and those are the only teaching compiled in the Guru Granth Sahib. That seems to be the true Philosphy of Sikhisim.

But the Philosphy later have changed to 'Politicalized' the Guru Home the Gurudwaras, that is what is diturbing to me and seems a different Philosphy. There is no reference to bearing arm or solving political issues in the Gurudwara's but it has become the way of Sikhs. This is Muslim Philosphy, the Quran contains reference to solving Political issues has complete punishments for act of crimes.

Guru Granth Sahib is different, it has the teaching the bring humans together to reach the goal of meeting the Waheguru.

So answering the question:

You have neglected to mention what you think is the "philosophy of Sikhism", what "shift" you think took place and how you reached your conclusions. Without this information, it is very difficult to answer your question.

The true Philosphy of Sikhism begining with Guru Nanak to Guru Arjun Dev with Sthapana of Guru Granth Sahib in 1604 is to promote harmony, purifying souls, bringing people together and search for truth and nothing else.

But the Philosphy was later influeneced by Muslim Philosphy of ruling by Islam Law where by Punjab is now ruled by AmritDhari Sikhs enforcing Draconion rules. If people on the raods starting telling girls "why are you not taking Scarf on the Head while walking on the raod, Why are you wearing any other clothes" or asking the boys on the road "Why the turbans are small or not there at all" shows that there is no difference of Philosphy of the AmritDhari Sikhs and Muslims.

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Another change in the Philosphy of the Sikhism:

In the initial phase the 'best disciple' became the next Guru that goes with the Philosphy of the best man gets the job.

But it changed to the 'heir to the Guru Gadi" became the next Guru. How can you say a Good Guru son will always be a Good Guru. In Nature that is not true. So that is also a big shift in Philosphy.

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The change of Philosphy in my sense begins when Bibi Bhani asked for Guru Gadi to be in the Guru Ghar.

This seems to be an act of selfishness and under human. Prior to this there was more immortal qualities in Gurus than a normal human but with this there is more human qualities in Guru than before that might be the reason for 'Guru Granth Sahib' to contain Bani's from earlier Gurus than later Gurus.

I'm not sure about anyone else but thinking of Bibi Bhani as some one great is not correct. The act of asking for Guru Gadi to be in her house is too selfish to even call her a great human than calling her any thing more.

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The true Philosphy of Sikhism begining with Guru Nanak to Guru Arjun Dev with Sthapana of Guru Granth Sahib in 1604 is to promote harmony, purifying souls, bringing people together and search for truth and nothing else.

What does this "true Philosophy" dictate one should do when someone comes to kill him? Talk him to death? Do you have the audacity to think that Guru Nanak Nirankaar did not know what was coming? What shape would Sikhi be in, what identity would we have, if we had adoped this "true Philosophy" of yours?

Chu kar az hama heelte dargujasht,

Halal ast burden ba shamsheer daste.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

:twisted:

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Chu kar az hama heelte dargujasht,

Halal ast burden ba shamsheer daste.

When there's no other course open to man, it is only righteous to unsheathe the sword."

Let me give you the meaning too as I know you just follow blindly and don't try to find even out what it means.

It is true when some comes to kill you, you have the right to bear arms.

But who tells you that it is right to keep the arm with you ever where there by increasing the animosity between human being.

When there is no need to bear arm, then the arms should be left home and not to be carried with you.

Also talk about the today. The Kirpan you have won't help you or your loved being, You in this case start bearing AK-47 and a Helmet not turban 24 hours.

The lines mean when the need be then bear arm and not wear these 24 hours.

SO that why I said you are a blind follower and doesn't know what the religion is.

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Let me give you the meaning too as I know you just follow blindly and don't try to find even out what it means.

Yeah, I typed them without knowing their meaning :roll:

It is true when some comes to kill you, you have the right to bear arms.

How are you going to know when someone's coming to kill you?

But who tells you that it is right to keep the arm with you ever where there by increasing the animosity between human being.

A Kirpaan is more than an 'arm'. Besides, ever bothered to look the U.S. Constitution?

When there is no need to bear arm, then the arms should be left home and not to be carried with you.

And who's going to tell me when I'm in need of it, you? The Government?

Also talk about the today. The Kirpan you have won't help you or your loved being, You in this case start bearing AK-47 and a Helmet not turban 24 hours.

This doesn't make any sense. You'll have to elaborate. What does a Kirpaan have to do with an AK-47?

The lines mean when the need be then bear arm and not wear these 24 hours.

Again, how are you going to know when you need it? Ask a fortune teller?

SO that why I said you are a blind follower and doesn't know what the religion is.

Thank you for the personal attack. I knew you'd get there, eventually. You must be proud.

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How are you going to know when someone's coming to kill you?

Let me make it really clear that

YOU DON'T Know the Sikh Religion.

Because if you know you do know that Gurbani says

"Hum Nahi Changee Bura Nahi Koi".

So I don't fear for my life and know no enemies.

You are an overly obssessed AmrithDhari who feel proud to carry the Kirpan. But in the essence forget that it has no bearing in today's society. you cann't even kill a dog with that else save yourself on US crime fested downtowns.

Do you think I Sikh with his turban and Kirpan is safer than a Sikh with no turban and no kirpan?

You must be dreaming if you think you are more safe with a Kirpan and Turban, while it might be the other way.

If you are so particluar about saving your life then carry AK-47 and wear Helmet that make more sense and is logical with your physche if you believe in the following:

"HUM HI HAI CHANGEE BURAE HAI SARI DUNIYA"

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Let me make it really clear that

YOU DON'T Know the Sikh Religion.

Because if you know you do know that Gurbani says

"Hum Nahi Changee Bura Nahi Koi".

So I don't fear for my life and know no enemies.

You are an overly obssessed AmrithDhari who feel proud to carry the Kirpan. But in the essence forget that it has no bearing in today's society. you cann't even kill a dog with that else save yourself on US crime fested downtowns.

Do you think I Sikh with his turban and Kirpan is safer than a Sikh with no turban and no kirpan?

You must be dreaming if you think you are more safe with a Kirpan and Turban, while it might be the other way.

If you are so particluar about saving your life then carry AK-47 and wear Helmet that make more sense and is logical with your physche if you believe in the following:

"HUM HI HAI CHANGEE BURAE HAI SARI DUNIYA"

There you go with the assumptions and insults again. Your philosophy of Sikhism in action, right?

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Let me make it really clear that

YOU DON'T Know the Sikh Religion.

Because if you know you do know that Gurbani says

"Hum Nahi Changee Bura Nahi Koi".

So I don't fear for my life and know no enemies.

You are an overly obssessed AmrithDhari who feel proud to carry the Kirpan. But in the essence forget that it has no bearing in today's society. you cann't even kill a dog with that else save yourself on US crime fested downtowns.

Do you think I Sikh with his turban and Kirpan is safer than a Sikh with no turban and no kirpan?

You must be dreaming if you think you are more safe with a Kirpan and Turban, while it might be the other way.

If you are so particluar about saving your life then carry AK-47 and wear Helmet that make more sense and is logical with your physche if you believe in the following:

"HUM HI HAI CHANGEE BURAE HAI SARI DUNIYA"

Newage,

I want to make one thing clear. If you are here to mock 5k's (gift of guroo maharaj ji) then you are in the wrong place.

Defination of Kirpan- Kirpa-aaan. Loka taie kirpa karni and defend not only yourself and defend people who are weak and who are in needy.

Lets take a scenario-

You going with your family to super market..just walking down the street. Somone mugged your family. What do you do then???

a. piss in your pants

b. cry like a baby

c. beg

or

d. try to negotiate- If not then at last restort use your shastar(kirpan) to defend your family/stranger by using sava-raksha skills (check out- http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/shastar...iques_past.html )

In my opnion you will go for-d. If you got any Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj spirit of khalsa in you!

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Does anyone think this guy's just an angry Sahajdhari?

AK47s arn't allowed on the streets I'm affraid, but a Kirpan is legal and less intimidating being tucked away.

As for the turban, well who wears body armour or helmets on the street?

And if you're actually talking about war rather than real life situations than use your commoun sense, do you really think that Singhs in the Indian army pull out their talwars to fight? Anyway Singhs in the US, British and Indian armies (as far as I know) are allowed to keep their 5 ks so I guess the kirpan is a convenient substitute for a combat knife which they would obviously use when there is no other alternative.

By the way I know this may be a silly question but do kirpans have to be shaped in the traditional style that they are or other kinds allowed?

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Lets take a scenario-

You going with your family to super market..just walking down the street. Somone mugged your family. What do you do then???

a. piss in your pants

b. cry like a baby

c. beg

or

d. try to negotiate- If not then at last restort use your shastar(kirpan) to defend your family/stranger by using sava-raksha skills (check out- http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/shastar...iques_past.html )

In my opnion you will go for-d. If you got any Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj spirit of khalsa in you!

i think he would take a,b, then e.

e. repeat vedic mantras till the mugger is struck down by a spaceship piloted by a drink driver

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think he would take a,b, then e.

e. repeat vedic mantras till the mugger is struck down by a spaceship piloted by a drink driver

I don't know what will happen if this situation arise with me but it seems that it happened to you recently, so your were able to narrate so seamlessly.

Just to mention that I keep a licensed 'Bersa Thunder .380 ACP' and may be able to use it if need be.

But before you were able to swing your Unlicensed 6" Kirpan, you might be left for your hell abode.

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Personally, i think new age Sikh isnt even Sikh but someone from a different faith hiding behind his user name, his theory is a common one which muslims try to argue, but we heard it all before. What is for sure was that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Your theory does not make sense, please dont make a mockery out of the 5K's.

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Personally, i think new age Sikh isnt even Sikh but someone from a different faith hiding behind his user name, his theory is a common one which muslims try to argue, but we heard it all before. What is for sure was that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Your theory does not make sense, please dont make a mockery out of the 5K's.

That is jumping to conclusion without any sound reasoning.

I don't need to prove to you what I am.

But I certainly not dumb like you. I just try to find my own path. I think I'm lost as till I was child I didn't have means to know or read about Guru's except what I was taught by my parents or from Gurudwara.

After practicing blindly I now realize why I'm doing what I'm doing and trying to find answers to my curiosities.

I've seen everyone I talked to in person or on computer has always shown this concern. Why cann't I get straight answers instead of blind statements.

If I'm not a Sikh then it doesn't make any sense to be looking for answers to all these because then I won't care.

I'm looking for these answers so that I can satisfy myself. I don't wear Pugg or keep beard as I'm unable to find any support for these in the Gurbani.

But I won't be able to convince my family in India so trying to look for answers.

But the more I look the more I feel that there is no relevance to these in the Gurbani.

If you can help find some answers well and Good otherwise I'll be the lone searcher

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I don't know what will happen if this situation arise with me but it seems that it happened to you recently, so your were able to narrate so seamlessly.

Just to mention that I keep a licensed 'Bersa Thunder .380 ACP' and may be able to use it if need be.

But before you were able to swing your Unlicensed 6" Kirpan, you might be left for your hell abode.

i don't carry a kirpan. if u had paid attention to my posts in other topics u wud know i was not amritdari! :LOL:

also i never knew it was necessary to have kirpans licensed. is that the case where u live?

your statement about the 38 seems to be in contrast to ur protestations of peace etc in other threads

and also i do also get the feeling that lion king may be right in his analysis of your religious leanings.

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Benti to the sewadars of this website to either control every word that the moorakh 'new age sikh' says or completely ban him

So far he has mocked our great gifts of the punj kakkar given to us by Guru Ji. Now he has also made a claim that the Guru Ji's were not of the same joth. He claims that the Gurship from Dhan Dhan Guru Arjun Dev Ji onwards changed sikhi.

GUR KEE NINDAA SUNEH NAA KAAN!!

He then goes onto question whether the correct decision was made regarding appointing the next Guru. This is completely unacceptable!!

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"NewAgeSikh"

Just to point out, the keeping of hair was stated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, our 10th Guru, what he has said is just as important as what is said by our 11th Guru: Guru Granth Sahib.

Also about the kirpan, nowadays it is very small and blunt, and not typically used as a weapon. But Sikhs still wear them because of what it means: it symbolizes the Sikh value of defending oneself and the weak. It is about defending the helpless: note the use of the word kirpan and not tulwar.

I get the sense that you are just attacking the identity of Sikhs: the five k's. The thing is I can't figure out why you are doing this. You say everyone else is blind, but you are the one calling your self sikh while questioning those that created Sikhism. You know more that the Guru's did?

Also try and keep this civil, and don't resort to petty personal attacks.

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i agree wid giani_g u jus sound very angry, i advise some anger control lessons.mite help.

on ur case about not haveing to carry arms at all times. was it not Guru Gobind Singh Ji that sed "dnt ocme to me without ur weapons n uncut hair. well or sumthing like that.

in my eyes the akalis were the "true" sikhs bk in the day, they all kept arms wa is ur argument against this.

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on ur case about not haveing to carry arms at all times. was it not Guru Gobind Singh Ji that sed "dnt ocme to me without ur weapons n uncut hair. well or sumthing like that.

I think there is no need to carry any arms around in today's word. We should concentrate on Guru's Gurbani:

Guru Arjun Dev ji Said on Page 1299 of SGGS:

bisar ga-ee sabh taat paraa-ee

jab tay saaDhsangat mohi paa-ee

naa ko bairee nahee bigaanaa sagal sang ham ka-o ban aa-ee

jo parabh keeno so bhal maani-o ayh sumat saaDhoo tay paa-ee

sabh meh rav rahi-aa parabh aykai paykh paykh naanak bigsaa-ee

This shabad is very self explanantory.

I think we should follow the Gurubani. Keeping Kirpan may not bring peace but bringing yourself to Sad Sangat will.

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