STOP FIGHTING

[Amrikingh]

17th century? like as if war has stopped , duh :roll:

weapons are not a cause of violence, its people who cant stop causing trouble, if it was such a perfect non violent world, then we probably wouldnt have weapons. what can the one in trouble do? just stand there and take a beating, or even get killed, tortured or raped, so the other person can do it again and again and again

Like in the previous post, weapons serve a purpose, some use it for the wrong purposes and some people use it for the right purposes, who are you to say that weapons should be kept home locked inda cupboard, I aint listening to some fool who thinks weapon is a old no good thing, im listening to guru gobind singh ji who instructed us to carry a kirpan which is used for a good purpose, to protect yourself and others around you

[Guest]

i think weapons are a must have for the simple fact that next joe is also gonna have one n u cant fight a knife bair handed, trust me.

too many ppl have a pasafist thinking, which wen it comes down to it isnt very good, the major difference is if me n u(GanM Ji) are in a forest/jungle, lets say suvival situation i would probably last longer, cuz i would use my "weapons" to get me through the situations.

Also i would probably kill you wid one of my many shaster so that i may survive, thank u GanM u could be my next meal. :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

[da militant]

Rakash singh.u seem to be a insecure person.this is my first time on here so dont be too harsh! lol basically, after reading many upon many articles, i have seen that you seem to have very extremist views.why do you think you have this opinion?

we are not in times of war nor are we constantly embraed in fights.so y do u have such violent opinions?

:?

[Beast]

lol, is this post for real? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Nihal_Kaur]

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

GanM, I have heard young sikh boys talk about how they don't want to go to university as their sole ambition in life was to go to india and train with guns so they could kill to gain khalistan, kill those that hurt the families of shaheeds, kill those that allowed operation bluestar, and kill, kill, kill.

I think your target for these posts is somewhat off the mark.

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

[commander]

Sounds very civilised. Can you describe the "purpose" to me? To rend/tear/eviscerate/puncture/maim/kill?

How about to defend and to protect?

There is nothing beautiful about ANY kirpan.

You just can't appreciate it.

Think about what that beautiful kirpan would look like lodged in [insert any close relative]'s body.

Yeah, its the weapons that kill people right? So why do we punish the person behind them?

You are wrong. They are something very damaging to the human body, refined over many thousands of years.

They are NOTHING compared to today's weapons. You couldn't even kill close to a million people with a sword in your whole lifetime, yet that feat could be accomplished in an instant with an atomic weapon. And you're comparing the two? Hello?

No. I think you and others like you are stuck in the past. I hope you're just romantics (even though that's harmful enough), because then you can be cured. But if you're realists and you see weapons as things which you might use (as indicated by the fact that you carry them, and have not handed them over to a museum/Sikh heritage group) then there's something wrong with you (which I would like to help you with).

Hey, hippie, I live in the USofA. If you want our weapons, first you're going to have to change the US Constitution. Then you're going to have to come take them by force.

So it's "them first", is it? What about white-collar criminals? Or thugs inside your own home? Criminality is a grey area, but your weapons are unequivocal, you see? You're asking for more from the street thugs (whoever they are) than you yourself are willing to do. Is'nt that a bit optimistic? You're the one who's supposed to be the "good guy", so why don't you be the first to drop the tools, and work towards achieving a better society in which people are'nt so scared of bozos on the street that even supposedly brave ones like Sikhs feel the "need" to carry medieval weapons on them?

I'm not asking anything from the "street thugs". If they are legally allowed to carry weapons, then it's just fine with me. As for "medieval" weapons? Do you think Sikhs don't know how to use guns? When we say "weapons", it includes guns too. Comprendo?

There is no relevance

You just refuse to see it.

I do not agree. Weapons are now integral to Sikhism, to the extent that you find shastars in every gurdwara, nihang or not. Weapons in a house of God? And you say that Sikhs are responsible for this damage to their own psyche? Fair enough, but the time's out now, and it's time to give them up for good.

Weapons have _always_ been in Gurdwaras. Your implication that they've "all of a sudden" become part of us is wrong.

No, that was'nt an obvious nor an irrelevant point. The weapons served Sikh political ambitions during some dark times, and now they are treated as if they have spiritual significance (they do not). War is an instrument of policy. Nothing else. It does'nt redeem anyone to be a violent suicidal maniac, whether their ruler says that his cause is just or not. It's just a waste of a life. "Martyrdom" is a monumental lie.

You've just insulted great Sikhs who gave up their lives for causes you will never understand. If it were up to me, I would ban you right here and now, you troll.

[Hari]

Dear GanM,

You say: "Stop fighting".I say: Stop proselytizing.

Live and let live man.Relax.Don't you have better things to worry about?Worry is not good.Relax.All is good.

Jai Mahakaal Kaalika....

[Guest]

to da militant, i could say ur insecure, all u ppl keep doing is speakin about world piece, as u rock side to side in one of the many dark coners of ur room. (JOKE TAKE IT LIGHTLY).

erm honestly i cnt be arsed to explain now, but if u'd like to add me to msn then i would explain all.

[GanM]

How about to defend and to protect?

You are a very thoroughly indoctrinated product of the American "educational" system. Don't the feds have a duty to "serve and to protect"? Who appointed you as anyone's defender or protector?

Did you appoint yourself?

And also, I take it from your comment that you regard the weapon itself (not the wielder) as the thing that allegedly defends and protects.

You just can't appreciate it.

Correct! Things were made to dismember, disembowel, terrify (in a terrorist sense), cripple and kill ANYONE who's targeted by their owner (whether the owner is right or wrong).

You see beauty in a thing that's designed to cut PEOPLE down like hay? Where's the beauty in watching someone's entrails spill out in front of you? I'm at a loss to understand where that beauty is. If you can see that beauty, I can see that there is a very serious problem here.

I refuse to see weapons independently of their intended purpose, unless they are safely locked away in a vault or museum. Someone who carries them around as "tools" is not interested in their "beauty", so please don't try to con me. Besides, you admit that you carry them not as jewellery but in case you need to use them. That's a "butt-ugly" philosophy.

Yeah, its the weapons that kill people right? So why do we punish the person behind them?

A moment ago you stated that the function of a weapon is to "defend and protect". YOU tell me who should be punished: people who want to use them or the weapons themselves? If this is a silly argument, perhaps you should consider just dumping them somewhere and not waiting for someone to do something that warrants punishment?

They are NOTHING compared to today's weapons. You couldn't even kill close to a million people with a sword in your whole lifetime, yet that feat could be accomplished in an instant with an atomic weapon. And you're comparing the two? Hello?

If you're saying that compared to an atom bomb, a knife may be a lesser evil then I am inclined to agree with you. But only because we can STOP you (if you were a crim, and I'm not saying you are) if/when you go berserk with a knife. This will be after you have hurt someone or some people a lot more than you could have done with your bare hands.

If you're saying that your sword or rifle or whatever is a lesser evil, then you're acknowledging that it is a force for evil. If we agree on this, who the hell is making you keep that thing? Let me talk to them.

Hey, hippie, I live in the USofA. If you want our weapons, first you're going to have to change the US Constitution. Then you're going to have to come take them by force.

Changing the US Constitution to take away people's right to carry firearms is a realistic possibility.

Is "force" the only language you understand? What if someone comes to take them by LOVE? Will you shoot them?

I'm not asking anything from the "street thugs". If they are legally allowed to carry weapons, then it's just fine with me.

By definition, if someone is a street thug (i.e. a violent and criminally-intentioned individual) then they are not lawfully allowed to carry weapons, wherever they are. The laws of the State you live in will be construed against someone who walks around on the street with a gun and a provable intention to use it criminally.

You brought up the subject of alleged defence and protection a moment ago. I therefore fail to understand why street thugs carrying weapons is something you are comfortable with. Who are you defending or protecting, and from what threat? If you explain what your concern is, I could suggest a non-violent way to allay it.

As for "medieval" weapons? Do you think Sikhs don't know how to use guns? When we say "weapons", it includes guns too. Comprendo?

Most humans (even some who have learning difficulties) can teach themselves how to use a gun. Even chimps can do it, when they have a little instruction. Is your "skill" at pulling a trigger, sticking ammo in a clip and switching off safety what makes you a "warrior"? Obviously your answer will be "no". But then could you be a warrior without that thing? If not, so what?

Medieval weapons are the traditional weapons you carry on your person and make excuses based on religion to explain your carrying them. I'm talking about any kirpans, khandas, chakkars, etc.

Weapons have _always_ been in Gurdwaras. Your implication that they've "all of a sudden" become part of us is wrong.

I did not imply that it was "all of a sudden". I mean that they are a product of the turn to violence and the threat of violence in the Sikh religion that was adopted by Guru Hargobind. Where were they before that? Why are they still around? There is no reason you should be feeling unsafe. You live in the most protected country in the world, and you have all your freedoms there. You adopted the violent form of Sikhism out of choice, in a peaceful environment.

If you tell me you had no choice but to be a self-appointed neo-Singh, I will disagree, VEHEMENTLY. It would be easy to prove you wrong.

If I may suggest: there is a strong case to be made that you are merely making excuses for your preference to rely on violent instincts (the easy way out) rather than try the much harder approach of actually reaching out and embracing your own and others' humanity. ANY human being can revert to savagery and resort to violence. There is no special breed reserved for that particular "talent". It's the choices YOU make in your life that determine whether you create violence (as you are doing, by carrying a weapon) or quell violence.

You've just insulted great Sikhs who gave up their lives for causes you will never understand. If it were up to me, I would ban you right here and now, you troll.

OK. I can see that you have become hostile. That's what I mean by the easy way out of things. Anyone can lose their temper. I have no wish to encourage your hostility. I only wanted you to awaken to the understanding that if you're packing, you're doing it out of choice and you're making the situation worse. If you don't want to, that's fine. But I reserve the right to prove you wrong here on this forum in front of everyone, so that others are shown a clear choice not to follow in your footsteps. It's not democratic to want to suppress these arguments.

As for insulting great Sikhs who fought for causes, you must be joking. I have not referred to any great Sikh of the past. Furthermore I don't know which cause or causes you are referring to (feel free to be more specific), but I do not respect any cause that wants to perpetuate the cycle of violence.

If you're not angry, please consider this.

Why is a MAN respected when he is dead?

Should'nt that respect be paid to the LIVING instead???

[GanM]

Nihal Kaur, I appreciate your comments. However, we are ALL responsible for the cycle of violence. The most likely people to bring about change in this ill society we live in are not people who have already been brainwashed into becoming terrorists/fanatics though. You lot are ideally placed to change things for the better. What do I have to do to make ordinary Sikhs give up violence? I'm getting really tired of letting the elders (who should know better) turn ordinary Sikh kids into tools. It should'nt be happening like this. In 2004, American, British and Canadian Sikh youth should be CHALLENGING the violent traditions of the past like carrying medieval knives and swords!! Not trying to continue them, in circumstances where there is NO threat to them whatsoever. It seems that shastardhari Sikhs live on a completely different planet to the rest of us. I just want them to catch up, and see the bigger picture so they can compete in the real world of the 21st century. For the sake of peace.

Hari, I don't want to proselytise at all. It would be nice if you could reassure me that you are doing what you can, in the way you know best, to disarm the Sikhs. You are in a better position to do it.

Don't be alarmed, I want to disarm EVERYONE, not just Sikhs.

[GanM]

to da militant, i could say ur insecure, all u ppl keep doing is speakin about world piece, as u rock side to side in one of the many dark coners of ur room

Let the words of our mouths

And the meditation of our hearts

Be acceptable in thy sight, O FarI

[Mugermach Singh]

I want to disarm EVERYONE, not just Sikhs.

ganm, if you really want to do this, then come to svai raksha classes, they will teach you how to disarm a person there. :twisted: :twisted:

It seems that shastardhari Sikhs live on a completely different planet to the rest of us. I just want them to catch up, and see the bigger picture so they can compete in the real world of the 21st century. For the sake of peace.

and what world might you be from???

and do i need a visa in the form of a white pag, and do i get a free mala when i decide to emigrate to your world..

excuse me from being rude, you cant get away by say Shasters are not God.

[Mugermach Singh]

death is not something to be taken lightly.

if you have a shaster, then you must understand the complications of having/using that shaster. not just on you, but your family and loved ones, and not just your family and loved ones but also theirs, they too will be some1s son/daughter etc.

It is not the shasters fault for death, but the person behind the shaster, all things are created for the intention of good, but people screw it up.

The car was invented for the intention of good, although people can run other people over,

the pen is a useful item, and it too can kill,

the keys lock door etc for protection, but u can still stab with a key,

a kitchen knife is used so we can LIVE by cutting and cooking our food, but it can also kill,

mobile phone can save a persons life by using it to ring for an ambulance, but it may give u cancer and kill you (still to be proven),

aeroplanes were used to get from place to place, now they too are shasters.

Its not the Item that is Evil, it is the person controling it.

GanM, you may have had some bad experiences, but you are not making any freinds here by forcing your maryada in our face,

instead of spreading the message of peach which you claim you are trying to do, you are causing more friction. Unless that is you hidden agenda, i do no know, but, u cant say shasters are not god. they are god,

god is within everything, we can do naam simran while training with shasters, we can do tapsia with shaster, get mukhti with shaster, they are our pir.

fateh

[GanM]

Mugermach, on reflection I was being rude (in the way I expressed my point) and you're not.

However, it's a different mindset altogether. That's what I'm saying. To arm yourself and to embed your weapons in your religious life to such an extent that you carry weapons outside every day is so far removed from how the ordinary non-Sikh people think. They simply could not understand such behaviour. Mainstream political interests are interested in the opinions (mostly irrational) of the greater number (the mob). They are the mob themselves, who express with one voice (Parliament) and weapons (modern armies). They are scared of difference.

You protect yourself from them by self-preservation (in a complete form) rather than adaptation. Wearing jeans is'nt an adaptation, if you still carry weapons. The spiritual climate is changing, and there is a violent malevolence everywhere. The kind of malevolence you can't protect against with weapons, only with the power of the human heart. The weapons seem to be aggravating/causing trouble, and making it difficult for people to trust each other.

I was thinking that changing the world to bring about world peace should begin at home. We should move on and defend ourselves with love, to protect against enemies that are now so clever that NONE of them are vulnerable to shastars. These days, even if you kill the weakest of them (e.g. a drunken racist yob) in self-defence, you can lose the fight in the end. It won't stop with imprisonment - the violence will escalate. Because the machinery is all in place for some serious conflict. I just want to take serious conflict out of the equation as an option.

If we start with our immediate localities, making those safer by coercing the authorities to do a much better job would be a much better plan than preparing for the worst possible outcome (which I believe becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because we are in charge of reality although you might not think so and hence carry a shastar).

[Mugermach Singh]

Mugermach, on reflection I was being rude (in the way I expressed my point) and you're not.

However, it's a different mindset altogether. That's what I'm saying. To arm yourself and to embed your weapons in your religious life to such an extent that you carry weapons outside every day is so far removed from how the ordinary non-Sikh people think. They simply could not understand such behaviour. Mainstream political interests are interested in the opinions (mostly irrational) of the greater number (the mob). They are the mob themselves, who express with one voice (Parliament) and weapons (modern armies). They are scared of difference.

You protect yourself from them by self-preservation (in a complete form) rather than adaptation. Wearing jeans is'nt an adaptation, if you still carry weapons. The spiritual climate is changing, and there is a violent malevolence everywhere. The kind of malevolence you can't protect against with weapons, only with the power of the human heart. The weapons seem to be aggravating/causing trouble, and making it difficult for people to trust each other.

I was thinking that changing the world to bring about world peace should begin at home. We should move on and defend ourselves with love, to protect against enemies that are now so clever that NONE of them are vulnerable to shastars. These days, even if you kill the weakest of them (e.g. a drunken racist yob) in self-defence, you can lose the fight in the end. It won't stop with imprisonment - the violence will escalate. Because the machinery is all in place for some serious conflict. I just want to take serious conflict out of the equation as an option.

If we start with our immediate localities, making those safer by coercing the authorities to do a much better job would be a much better plan than preparing for the worst possible outcome (which I believe becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because we are in charge of reality although you might not think so and hence carry a shastar).

if you have listened to the song 'wepons of mass destruction' then you will see the black guy talking to a brick wall. thats me talking to you at this precise moment or you talking to me at precise moment. im ending it here.

see you at sach khand.

fateh.

[GanM]

Mugermach, how can I force you to adopt my maryada? That does'nt make any sense. And I don't have any agenda apart from the one I declared. It's honest of you to mention it, because I would expect a warrior to anticipate an ATTACK whenever someone comes with a message to disarm (I've read Clausewitz). However, there is no incoming attack. Your distrust is what I want to address. I also want to open your eyes to the damage you are causing. It's for you. I've got no use for weapons.

[GanM]

if you have listened to the song 'wepons of mass destruction' then you will see the black guy talking to a brick wall. thats me talking to you at this precise moment or you talking to me at precise moment. im ending it here.

see you at sach khand.

fateh.

Apologies if I misunderstood. I can be slow at times.

We can discuss these things again soon, maybe?

[Hari]

"Finite, it is said, are these bodies of the eternal, indestructible, incommensurable embodied being [i.e., the Self]. Hence fight, O son of Bharata.

He who thinks of Him as slayer and he who thinks [that He can be] slain--they both do not know. He does not slay nor is He slain.Never is He born or dies. He did not come into being, nor shall He ever come to be. This primeval [self] is unborn, eternal, everlasting. It is not slain when the body is slain." - Shri Krishan Maharaj (Bhagvad Gita)

[Rakash Singh]

solid.

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear GanM

Please stop fighting against reality!Maybe the day a Nihang Singh protects you from a gang of racist barbaric skinheads or when he saves yoru daughter from being raped you will appreciate the gift of Guru Gobind Singh: these shastars that you hate so much!!!

If you worship Akal Purakh you surely have to accept all of its aspects, one of it being Kal or Mahakal, Great Death! Unless you are one of those traitors who consider Dasam Bani to be merely poetic!

Welcome to the real world: death is everywhere, suffering is everywhere, whether with or without shastar.

Your attitude is disgusting because you insult the memory of so many shahids and great SIkh warriors who died so that you could be here (that's if you're a Sikh). These shahids of the past, present and future deserve more than your pity.

Shastars are not things of the past because tyranny is not part of the past.

I have shastars with me yet I live in peace with my neighbours be they Sikhs, Hindu, Christian or Muslims. The bounds of love I create around me mean that my neighbour doesn't need to think about neutralising me. You are asking the army of Akal Purakh to lay down arms, why don't you ask the worldly and unligitmate governments who fight for the wrong reasons to lay dwon their weapons?

[Guest]

Wicked Post lalleshvari veer ji ! :D

[sikh_fauge]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeer ji

[Guest Javanmard]

It is indeed sad to see people, who claim to be Sikhs and yet find it OK to insult the sacred chivalry traditions of our faith. Is "progress" the yeard stick to measure Sikhi??? Progress implies the idea of break with tradition and a change in essence not just in form. GanM's ideas are based on Positivism, the quite naive 19th belief that humanity moved away from its primitive initial state and moved on to be "modern" and "progressive" with the help of science and the changes brought through law.

Gurbani is constant, complete and perfect: it does not need to change its essence and traditions.

As Guru Gobind Singh says in Suraj Prakash Granth about kesh:

Times have NOT changed! The sun, the moon and stars are still the same so how can you say times have changed!

The same thing counts for the shastars: just because people have DVD and microwaves doe snot mean they are more civilised and less backward!

By saying that 17th century ways were backward GanM implies that Guru Gobind SIngh was backward, which as a SIkh I CANNOT ACCEPT! Also

This is in utter opposition with Sikhi. Humanity, according to Sikhi, is not moving towards beautiful fields of joy: this is Kal Jug and Kal Jug ends on a quite CATASTROPHIC NOTE!!! A bit like the Ragnaroeg of the Vikings!!!

No GanM we are NOT in a civilised age where people don't need weapons!

The cycle of violence will never end because death and suffering will never end!Also I noticed GanM's point about being "lawful": interesting point: so a SIkh should forget about the commandments of his/her Guru and follow laws that contradict his faith which are the result of a process where people, even if totally ignorant and uneducated vote for someone else to decide for them: where is Divine Hukam in that?!?!?!

[Freed]

A Small benti to Shaka Bhai sahib - could you give a reference for your quote;

"As Guru Gobind Singh says in Suraj Prakash Granth about kesh:

Times have NOT changed! The sun, the moon and stars are still the same so how can you say times have changed! "

I have seen you quote it before but have been unable to find it

( I have tried to find it - so I'm not asking to be Spoonfed !!!!)

It would really make my day if you could give me the reference -

I have the Bhasha Vibhag 1989 edition of Siri Gur Partap Suraj Granth edited by Bhai Sahib Dr Vir Singh.

Many Thanks in advance ! ( & apologies if I've interrupted this discussion thread )

[GanM]

Lalleshvari/Nyorai I read your posts and I am convinced now more than ever that your armed-warrior-ism is pure evil. If only you could understand - your notions about Kal Yug could easily be a self-fulfilling prophecy when you accept them as true. You seem to have chosen to believe a series of medieval prophecies that say: these days are'nt like the good ol' days, and they're going from bad to worse. That's your choice to believe that. I'm asking you to change your choice.

You really have no idea how redundant your ways with weapons are. There is no love without trust, and carrying weapons "just in case" in times of peace and where there is no particular threat against you is a symptom of a serious lack of trust (i.e. paranoia). You have crafted a whole religion around your paranoia.

The ways of 17th century militant religionists are not 21st-century ways suitable for adoption in today's pacified world. This fact is obvious to people who don't identify themselves as feudal warriors. Guru Gobind Singh's ways and habits (i.e. being armed and ready for a ruckus) were meant for his guerrilla struggle in the contemporary Punjab. That struggle is over, much as you seem to want it to continue, with your romanticisation of the killers of those days.

Your ideas are way out there and have nothing to do with how the non-Sikh world thinks, but they will win you friends here on this internet forum. Unfortunately your lack of trust in others reaps its own reward for you (i.e. you will not be trusted yourself) and your being tooled up does'nt exactly emanate good vibes for everyone else as you seem to think. That's why I'm asking you to disarm. For your good and everyone else's.