Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh JSB I understand your point that you cannot take a few lines of Gurbani to justify an argument but the verses I have taken from the Koran stand on their own. These are entire verses and not as your state 'a few lines'. My point still stands for JTSingh to provide an alternative translation. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Gurfateh Bikramjit I see little point in continuing this 'debate'. To finish with, I shall post a few quotes from the respected Islamic scholar Prof. Hasan Qaribullah: This is from a translation of the Holy Koran by the Grand Shaykh, Professor Hasan Qaribullah, Dean of Umm Durman Islamic University. He states: There is not one single verse in the Koran that says “O Believers, do not befriend the Jews and the Christians … ” however in bad translations from Urdu to English you may find such mistranslation. The Arabic verse clearly states “Believers, take neither Jews nor Nazarenes (Christians) for your guides … ” in spirituality, which is understandable see also: [4.144] Believers, do not take the unbelievers for guides instead of the believers, or do you desire to give Allah a clear authority over you? 9.23] Believers, do not take your fathers or your brothers for a guide if they love disbelief rather than belief. Whosoever of you takes them for guides are the harmdoers. There are several verses in the Koran that refer to killing the unbelievers (worshipers of stones), such verses relate directly to the battle fields of 1500 years ago, when early Muslims were persecuted as the early Christians persecuted. True path of Islam is moderation, therefore Muslims should lead exemplary lives and preach the religion to non- Muslims and not kill them. Over the centuries many non-Muslims choose to live under Islamic protections (i.e. Spain) and were never subjected to persecution One thing I have noticed from a quick search on the internet is that these distorted quotes of verse 5.51 and 4.89 only appear on either Wahabi or Christian fundamentalist websites with that I'll bow out - for good this time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh JtSingh If there's one thing that we agree on, it is that this thread is going nowhere. I was not going to make any extra comments on your post but you posted a translation of the verses I put on and claimed that the translations used by me were distorted from Wahabi or Christian websites. FYI The translations are from virtually word for word the same as those of three of the most respected translators of the Koran. Yusef Ali, Mohammed Pickhtall, and Shakir. Here is verse 5.51 again (The Koran) [5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." And here are the translations of the three most widely respected translators of the Koran. YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. Rather than your 'respected Islamic scholar Prof. Hasan Qaribullah's' contention that the word 'friends' does not occur in this verse from the Koran, all these three translations use the word 'friends' and not the more PC and acceptible 'guides'. This is my final reply. I have posted my understanding of this issue on here and you posted yours. let us allow the other forum members to make their own minds up based on this or make further comments. To The moderators. Can this thread not be locked for a few days. I would welcome the views of the other forum members on this issue. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Yaa hoo!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d33p Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 On an earlier page, i think either [2] or [1], BikramjitSingh says that sikhs dont believe in a transcedent creator, but rather one who's eminent. There was a quote by Bhagat Kabeer that was used as proof. I remembered seeing the word transcedent in translations so i looked it up and it comes up each time the word prameshar is used. It translates to Transcedent Lord on the sikhitothemax.com website. so whats the truth? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 On an earlier page, i think either [2] or [1], BikramjitSingh says that sikhs dont believe in a transcedent creator, but rather one who's eminent. There was a quote by Bhagat Kabeer that was used as proof. I remembered seeing the word transcedent in translations so i looked it up and it comes up each time the word prameshar is used. It translates to Transcedent Lord on the sikhitothemax.com website. so whats the truth? I think you misunderstood. I was remarking on that fact that many Muslim singers will choose to sing verses from the Guru Granth which do not go against their own beliefs. Many Muslim singers have chosen to sing Bhagat Kabir's shabad ' Avval Allah Noor Upaiya' because they believe that it glorifies the God of the Koran. What I had said was that later in the same Shabad Bhagat Kabirji decribes God as being immanent which is contary to how the Koran views Allah. I did not say that we only believe in a transcendent God, we believe in both transcendent and immanant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d33p Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 I think you misunderstood. I was remarking on that fact that many Muslim singers will choose to sing verses from the Guru Granth which do not go against their own beliefs... I did not say that we only believe in a transcendent God, we believe in both transcendent and immanant. Sorry phaji, my mistake. Pardon my ignorance, but my intuition had led me to to the idea that Waheguru is transcendent alone. Thats what i got from my cursory study of gurbani. Could you please direct me to evidence showing sikhs believe that Waheguru must be within some or all of creation. Thanks again. I think i came across some gurbani the other day that might hint towards an immanent creator. The message was something like "he created the universe and having done so he watches over it with delight". I am not sure what bani it was, i think Japji Sahib. But now that i think of it, this implies the former idea of the creator. Am i correct in understanding that Waheguru in Sikhi is transcedent or immanent. Because if you use 'and' instead of 'or' you end up with a contradiction. Would i then be correct still to say we dont know, as sikhs, which one of these He is, because that information is subject to His Will alone? btw. as you may have noticed iam new. so i hope i am not making too many crass newbie mistakes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 Hey D33p, Welcome, we're all newbies here in terms of knowledge, actually I can only speak for myself so join the club Ji :wink: maeraa prabh bharapoor rehiaa sabh thhaaee || My God is pervading and permeating all places. gur parasaadhee ghar hee mehi paaee || By Guru's Grace, I have found Him within the home of my own heart. sadhaa saraevee eik man dhhiaaee guramukh sach samaavaniaa ||1|| I serve Him constantly, and I meditate on Him single-mindedly. As Gurmukh, I am absorbed in the True One. ||1|| Gurfateh! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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