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Do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?


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Do you have some statistics to back up your claim, I don't doubt your perception but I find it very hard to believe that the retention rate between generations is positive considering my observations in my own community.

I did read itand that is part of where I derived the hierarchy I described in an earlier post. What concerns me is the existence of different levels of devotion based soley on action rather than spiritual accomplishment.

Yes I do believe, Guru Nanak was a revolutionary; e.g. he attempted to eliminate the caste system. That brings another point when did Sikhs start abondoning the sole use of Singh and Kaur? Isn't pointless to be named Charn Singh Gill as I am. I have often considered eliminating Singh entirely from my name since it serves no purpose alongside Gill. You probably wondering why I would not just eliminate Gill, well once again I am concerned for most with practicality, names are to identify an individual, having the same name has thousands of others doesn't work well in today's world. Education about the ignorance of the caste system would be better served today. That was abit of an off-topic rant, sorry.

I agree but wouldn't it follow that once people actually understood what was being said they maybe inclined to seek more knowledge which would then require learning of Gurmukhi. You cannot expect all to become scholars but they should all be worthy of guidance.

There are many opportunities for showcasing the need to be humble, do you really want to choose a time when people should be listening to teachings and reflecting on their own being. This is probably the only time many people come in contact with the holy book. Why not make it as positive an experience as possible? I realize that it is probably enjoyable for you and those that understand all that is being said. But I am speeking from the perpective of recruitment.

Why not set an example for the state? If the temples can feed the starving through donations that pale in comparison to tax revenue, the state would be forced to sit up and take notice and hopefully effect change. I am not suggesting it to show off.

I agree that I can easily fall into the bliss of my personal utopia but that doesn't fit with my ideals. I am looking for the same thing as Guru Nanak, Karl Marx and others were, that being collective utopia.

I was over simplyfying the issues, I recognize the metaphors and the minuscule portion the 5Ks represents but I am not the one placing so much value on the 5Ks. It is those that are trying to force it on others that have created their distorted value.

Why not suggest to Sikhs that at one point in their life they should make a pilgramage of soughts to visit the Sikh historical sites of Sikhism. And also suggest that they try to emulate the founders during this trip by maintianing the 5Ks etc. I am just thinking out loud here. I would love to do something like that.

I am not concerned with what people think of me, but trying to emhasize that some of the participants in Sikhism have committed a cardinal sin, that being to judge others.

Don't get me started about Dixie Gurudwara, the place IMO has absolutely nothing to do with Sikhism. I will save my comments and experiences of Dixie for another day since I will probably alienate more people than a new comer ought to.

as i said previously... my definition of sikh most definitely contradicts what other people believe as Sikhs. do you have statistics to prove your claim that Sikhi is being stunted by the 5 Ks?

your focus on this hierarchy is another example of looking outwards for recognition. there are many people who ignore this hierarchy and just do their own thing. and the people who look at it in terms of a hierarchy based on whether people are amritdhari or not themselves have no idea what they're talking about. do you want to be concerned about what they say?

when you think of our Gurus as revolutionaries, make sure that you don't forget where their revolutionary ideas came from.

ur rant on last names is appropriate for another thread floating around somewhere in the forum (check in other sections).

of course people would become more interested if they actually understood what was being said. my only concern is that Gurmukhi and the original literature intact with its myriad of symbolic phrases, metaphors and similes, etc. etc. shouldn't be forgotten. i don't know if you've seen this, but AKJ sangat has been very innovative by putting up a projecter that displays the lines being sung and their english translation underneath at some of their Keertans. (great idea.)

there is no recruitment perspective in Sikhi. lol... if anything, most people will tell you that one of many reasons that people flock to Sikhi is because we don't preach anything and we don't wanna force our views on anyone. well, most of us don't but then you get other people with slightly different ideas.

as for your thing on sitting on the floor. it's not really that hard. and if all u can think about is leaving when you sit down, then you really don't need to be there. a little discomfort isn't much. especially for younger people. i'm sure that you know that the rules are definitely bent for people with serious disabilities and older adults who truly cannot sit that long. consider it a matter of discipline.

as for helping the state become aware of how much it could do with the money it's got... lol... do you really think they're going to care? i doubt it.

it's not a matter of personal utopia versus collective utopia. one important thing about Sikhi is the importance placed on Sadh Sangat (meaning the company of enlightened souls). if one person becomes enlightened, then the entire community benefits from their knowledge. that person becomes motivational in each person's quest for enlightenment.

and in the end, it really isn't about collective utopia. it's about your own personal journey.

u answered your own question by identifying that the problem lies in other people's distorted enthusiastic views.

and again, i wonder what your underlying motive is in pointing out a very commonly known thing that other people judge others.

dun worry, i won't get u started in diskhey.

now, having addressed ur comments one by one (which was a lotta fun) i've got one last thing to say to you.

from what you've written you seem to be a very community oriented person. and tha's a great thing, cuz Sikhi is in part a community oriented religion. but having said that, it's important that you realize that underlying all these community oriented details, Sikhi is at heart a VERY personal religion. in the end, it boils down to you and your Guru. no one else.

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there is no recruitment perspective in Sikhi. lol... if anything, most people will tell you that one of many reasons that people flock to Sikhi is because we don't preach anything and we don't wanna force our views on anyone. well, most of us don't but then you get other people with slightly different ideas.

Firstly, where are the flocks? Somebody on the site must have some statistics about membership and growth. But last time I checked I don't remember a subway car full of Sikhs.

How can you say that Sikhism is not concerned with recruitment? How did you hear about it? Was it some divine intervention or was it simply by being born into the faith? Either way there is in introduction of sorts or recruitment. If there was no recruitment parents would be encouraged to allow their children to explore other faiths and then if they choose to, they can become Sikh. I don't know about you but for the most part my parents have told me I am Sikh from the moment I could understand their words. We are at the very least concerned with retention if not recruitment.

As stated earlier, Sikhism is concerned with trying to heal all humanity and therefore must reach as much of humanity as it can. This is implicitly stating that we must recruit.

Now since I have established for myself there is a need to recruit, the question turns back to my original one being, do the 5Ks stunt the growth of Sikhism?

As I stated earlier I believe it does, but I too have no statistics.

So how do we conduct a survey of Sikhs? Is that even possible? Are we that organized yet? Do we have a Vatican type office at Amritsar that communicates to all of the world's Sikhs. If there is they never got to me!

I thank all that have commented but none have really answered the question and maybe that is because we have no statistics.

I have a hunch that even if I had statistics that stated the faith were dying, the powers that be wouldn't care to change anything anyway.

Unfortuntely, this post has got me thinking it maybe my time to say bye bye to the forum since nothing really seems that different from my encounters with other faith. Any changes are viewed as bad or unnecessary and therefore one must adopt rules and rituals established for a different context. I realize that no-one can speak for Guru Nanak but I believe he would be disappointed in our faiths inability to grow. It is kind of nice to think if our faith as a dying jedi knight type thing but wouldn't it be even better to see its influence effect change all over the world.

I am definately an optimist but most of you that have responded are pessimistic. I don't mean that in a negative way but you believe nothing can influence gov't etc. This is not true, I have worked with people that write gov't policies, they are people just like you and me. The difference being that they are influenced by other faiths not Sikhism. E.g The U.S. is currently motivated by the those that appose abortion and gay rights etc.

When will the Sikh mandate ever make it to the forefront if we do not encourage membership. We are a very wealthy body that is relatively powerless in the world today.

We have negative stigma attached to our existence; e.g. today's Toronto Papers carry pictures of a Sikh man wearing a turban. Without me telling you the story do you think it is a positive or negative story for Sikhs. Well, unfortunately it is a picture of an accomplice in the Air India bombing.

When will we control media outlets outside of India? This is a must for any cause in today's world. Without more membership and good guidance from the organizers of our faith we will be left wallowing in our factory jobs, or farming the land in India. (I am speaking about the majority of Sikhs not the professional minority)

Lets create a plan for world domination with the goal being peace on earth. I know the last sentence may have lost you all but I am not joking.

If your path can create what I am looking for sign me up but you haven't sold me on anything yet. And please don't say you don't need to sell me on anything, that is just too predictable.

Charn Gill

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I don't want Sikhism to grow.I want it to die :twisted: .This religion of 5 K's and impotent amrit* (lower case "a" on purpose).Pakhandi nimrata, pakhand kirtan.No love, only "them and us".

However, Sikhi of Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar has no need to "grow".It has always been and always will be.

*Khanda Amrit is Amrit of Shakti Mata, and She must be present when it is prepared.But how many Panj nowadays have Shakti?Panj must have Shakti (Shastarvidiya, symbiotic relationship with Parshakti Mata).

These are my views and are open to criticism.

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SWB, u might already be gone, but i'm still gonna reply...

what is with your obsession with numbers? why is the quantity of sikhs so important to you?

if Sikhi was about numbers, then our Guru's wouldn't have done things the way they did.

all this social revolutionary ideas you're constantly flaunting as good things about Sikhi that can affect the world would've gotten the Gurus killed in their time as well as all of their followers.

yes, they were radical. but they weren't about numbers! if anything, they were looking for people with substance to understand what they wanted!

what does QUANTITY have to do with QUALITY?!

and if you're looking for some sort of official survey on Sikhs, good luck. everyone has a different vision of what defines a Sikh. but i'm sure you can find plenty of sources that will be questioned by one side of the other.

if u feel the need to say good-bye to us already, so be it.

but please don't tell us that your political ideas are most definitely what you believe our Gurus would've considered growth.

once again, don't confuse growth in numbers with better quality.

no one said that we're all pessimistic about our effect on the government. i made a comment on not flaunting our seva, and ur extending that comment to everything else. if you're as smart as you seem, please don't make the mistake that many other people make and take things out of context.

as for the rest of the stuff that you're talking about, i'm not even gonna bother.

and yes, i'm going to be predictable.

we don't have to sell you on anything. this is a place where we come to exchange ideas.

you have great ideas. and i enjoyed reading them. but you don't seem to be open to others' ideas.

anywho. nuff from me. i gotta get back to my essay. buh bye SWB.

oh, and fyi... i did answer your question. but apparently my answer doesn't count. oh well.

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I don't want Sikhism to grow.I want it to die .This religion of 5 K's and impotent amrit* (lower case "a" on purpose).Pakhandi nimrata, pakhand kirtan.No love, only "them and us".

Hari, I want you to clarify are you calling the same amrit "impotent"...which guru maharaj ji himself took it from panj pyares even though Guru Maharaj was nirankar parabrahm himself.

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How can you say that Sikhism is not concerned with recruitment? How did you hear about it? Was it some divine intervention or was it simply by being born into the faith? Either way there is in introduction of sorts or recruitment. If there was no recruitment parents would be encouraged to allow their children to explore other faiths and then if they choose to' date=' they can become Sikh. I don't know about you but for the most part my parents have told me I am Sikh from the moment I could understand their words. We are at the very least concerned with retention if not recruitment.[/quote']

*ALL* parents teach their offspring what they think is best for them.

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we don't have to sell you on anything. this is a place where we come to exchange ideas.

you have great ideas. and i enjoyed reading them. but you don't seem to be open to others' ideas.

I'm still here I don't now whether that will please or not but I'm here.

O.K. don't sell me anything, but then don't regurgitate what others have instilled in you either, rather say what you think, not what ought to be said.

My thoughts are not profound by any means, they are a result of growing up in poverty and sikhism. Sikhism was the shining light that fueled me but has long ago burnt out leaving me scrambling for sustinance elsewhere. What is most upsetting is that Sikhism does have the answers to my problems but I am not entitled to access them since I don't want to fit into a 300 year old mold. My life experiences have probably been duplicated countless times in other Sikh youth but it all goes to waste since there is really nobody listening to our youth.

I am not saying that you or others are not being honest in your answers, rather that they are not personal, they are responses that I can probably get from any temple. I was hoping to discuss the tensions talked of by 'Gupy'. But nobody wants to go there.

Yes you answered my question but to be frank the honest answer you didn't say was you don't know either. But to say that would question your entire existence (I am assuming that you are all that I refuse to become).

I don't need to see the numbers, ask any Sikh scholar (not those on this forum) and they will tell you that the numbers are declining in comparison to the birth rate. It is obvious, but you and others don't want to even accept that point. It is only after you accept this point that you will be able to honestly assess why the numbers are declining. It may have nothing to do with the 5Ks, that is only my hypothesis.

But I will not tolerate someone saying that I am ignorant because I am immature in my experience with your path to sikhism. Someone earlier described me as a person who failed his 12th grade exams and is trying to obtain his PHD. Well you know what, it can be done. I was a high school drop out, I left school at 15. I then re-entered after a long absence straight into Law school. In Canada, Law school is your 2nd degree not first as in the U.K. I am constantly debating PHD and Masters students with them often seeking advice on problems from me. My point is not to toot my own horn but to make you and others realize that there are alot of intelligent people sitting on the sidelines waiting for an invitation to sikhism rather than being shown the exit.

My life has been threatened in the past but not by armed thugs but granthis that don't want Sikhism to change. Why don't these few want it to change? because it is a cash cow.

Our youth is brilliantly talented in anything they wish to do but are not permitted to advise on how to shape the future of Sikhism. This is a great failure and will ultimately spell the demise of Sikhism outside India.

So Sukhi and others say what is at the tip of your tongue when you read my post not what you think you should say. Lets break out of our shells and go a little deeper. I shed mine a long time ago.

Bye, for now

I guess I was typing while the Commander was speaking.

So to respond, if I am the flavour of the month, shame on you for not realizing the gravity of the problem before you. You mean you know all that I am saying and you continue to ignore people like me, that really just want to be included. What is wrong with you, I don't judge you for taking your path.

And am I Sikh? you better believe it. I don't need a book or gurus to guide me in the path of Sikhism I have been lucky to have parents that have taught me to have a conscience and to be aware of my surroundings. You on the other hand have had a constant reminder of pain and suffering but turn your back on it. Are you Sikh?

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its not any kind of pressure . this is simply obeying the order of our beloved guru ji . if you want to become a true sikh or singh you have to obey their teachings and their orders . if not its ok , you can do what evr you want .

Guru Gobind SIngh Ji said :

" rehni rahe soi sikh mera , oh sahib main uska chera "

" rehit bina na sikh kahave , rehit bina dar chota khave "

"rehit pyari mujko sikh pyara nahi "

Guru Amardas Ji said :

" so sikh sakha bandhup hai bhai jo Gur ke bhane vich aaye "

" aapne bhane jo chale vichud chota khave "

"Khalsa is a very unique panth . It goes in the opposite direction in which the materialistic and kalyugi people go "

As u know " gursikhi bareek hai khande dhar gali at bhidi , uthe tike na bhunhara " , so walking on this path of sikhi is not an easy task . u will have to obey all of ur Guru ji's orders .

Wearing 5k's does not make you a " neanderthal". don't care about the stupid modern society or the so called modern sikhs who talk about forgetting or ignoring our puratan maryadas .

that 's why these days we singhs are not as "pratapi" as the puratans singhs used to be becus we r ignoring many rules set up by our Guru ji .

For a sikh , to say that 5k's are not important , is a very foolish thing to say .

This message is for the people of every faith : have a firm belief in your Murshad (who should be "POORA" or complete ) and do whatever he told you to do .

bhul chuk maaf

wjkk wjkf

This was posted on Sikhnet

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/youth.nsf/3...89!OpenDocument

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Khalsa Ji...i have heard that Guru Gobind Singh said "Rehit pyari mujhko Sikh pyara naahi",meaning that "i love the Rehit and not the Sikh"...and at the same time on this forum i have read that Amrit is a choice and not a compulsion...don't these 2 contradict each other?...its also said that one can be dear to Guru Gobind Singh only upon taking Amrit...well,more dearer i mean to say...please shed some light on this...also i must say u are doing a great job in awakening the Sikh youth of today...keep up the good work ji :-)

SatSriAkaal!

*******

REPLY

********

Dear Seeker--

Sat Siri Akaal. [FYI-This forum is moderated by volunteers who have full-time jobs and families. Please be patient!]

First of all, this line/shabd was not written by Guru Gobind Singh, it was written by Bhai Desa Singh Ji (sorry, I do not know who he was). I will give you the full english of this shabd (page 1015 of Amrit Kirtan), because it will help answer your question:

"I love the Sikh Rehit; the Sikh himself is not my beloved.

The one who lives the Sikh lifestyle is my Sikh; he is my master and I am his disciple.

Without the Rehit no one can be a Sikh; without the Rehit one will face difficulties at all times.

Without the Rehit he cannot be comfortable at all; that is why a Sikh should be committed to the Rehit."

Amrit is a choice. Remember that Amrit and the Rehit are GIFTS of Guru Gobind Singh to his Sikhs.

What this Bhai Sahib is saying is that the Sikh who takes this GIFT, and makes the commitment to Rehit is completely one of Guru Gobind Singh's own, because she/he has put their head (ego) in their hand and said to Guru: "I am Yours." Those Sikhs who take Amrit become sons and daughters of Guru Gobind Singh & Mata Sahib Deva, who are thus BOUND to honor, protect, and serve them. The line about 'facing difficulties' indicates not that an Amritdhari Sikh will have a challengeless existence. But the Rehit gives that Sikh the presence of Guru to face the times with victory, knowing VICTORY IS ASSURED. It is the Rehit that makes Sikhs 'strong as steel and steady as stone'. There is this subtle difference between a Sikh and an Amritdhari Sikh. That said, I have seen a lot of Sikhs who act Amritdhari but are not, and just as many Amritdhari who do NOT act it. I have also seen people take Amrit more than once, which is remarkable.

So we cannot judge Sikhs solely by whether or not they are Amritdhari.

What this shabd implies is that Amrit is not a thing to take lightly. It is a Gift and a sworn commitment to do one's best to live the Rehit. That is why it has to be a choice, because not everyone will feel it is their time to receive this gift. Guru loves all his Sikhs, but He has a special commitment to Amritdharis. Amrit should never be forced, and no one should take Amrit who is so young that they do not understand it.

God bless you to take Amrit when Guruji says "it's time!"

--DKK

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Thank you for your insight but you raise a few more questions.

1. What is a shabad? I know it is words spoken in a rythmic tone but what is its purpose? Is it to provide words to meditate to?

2. If you or anyone else doesn't know the writer of the shabad, why does he receive status that allows him to comment on the thoughts of Guru Gobind?

3. Can I write a shabad? If so will people listen to what I believe Guru Gobind might have been saying?

4. Let me take the words as if they were from Guru Gobind, even then they only speak of the discomfort one might face for being without Rehit. I can completely understand why one would choose the path to be chosen but if I feel no discomfort in my path aren't I entitled to choose, as you said?

5. As you said, one must choose the time to except the gift, until then am I barred from participation in the Sikh community. I know the theoretical answer is 'of course not' but practically speaking what is the liklihood of a person like myself being permitted to speak to a congregation? What level of respect does a person like myself have in a temple today? I have heard there was a process of taking Amrit without the 5Ks, what happened to that?

6. I am Sikh and nobody can take that away from me, I will be Sikh as long as I live an honest existence. A more 'godly' Sikh can never take that away from me and is foolish for trying.

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Nobody wants to take your identity as a Sikh away from you. From your posts I get a feeling that you are searching for validation of your identity. I agree with others that told you not to worry, if you believe something then why does it matter what others think. I also agree with you when I see corruptions within Sikhi, which I feel come from the institutionalization of the faith (see topic about this in a different thread). Corruptions such as discriminatory behavior by certain people and “leaders.†You want just our personal thoughts....that is fair, and I will try my best....

My personal view is that you don't need 5k's to be Sikh. To me the very general definition of Sikhi is just a learner (literal meaning of word). So in that respect anyone can be Sikh: Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc... I believe it was said by one of the Gurus, if you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim; if you are Hindu, be a good Hindu.

Now what the word Sikh most typically refers to is the person who believes Granth Sahib to be his/her guru. Just that easy, if you believe in the basic principles of naam japna (remembering god as often as possible, not necessarily through shabad, just in your everyday activities...), working hard and earning what you get, and seva. Personally I think those are the most important characteristics needed to be a good Sikh.

Then I believe there is the Khalsa: the elite socio-military force within Sikhism. The Khalsa are just a part of Sikhism. Khalsa has quite a clear-cut role within Sikhi: they are to uphold all of its principles, defend the honor of all innocents, and maintain the 5ks (which were given to them to assist them in this). To be the Khalsa are an ideal to strive towards.

Now with all that said I don't think every Sikh needs to become a Khalsa, hell I don't think even 70% of those calling themselves Sikhs now will ever become Khalsa. To be there is a difference in Khalsa and a Sikh, in that every Khalsa is a Sikh, but not vice versa.

Also make not that many of Sikhs now a days are spread out across the spectrum of Sikh-Khalsa. Many are in-between or leaning more towards one. Ex: keshdari are closer to being Khalsa, while sejdari might not be, but that does not limit anyone’s spirituality. Having 5ks in the end will not determine who is more religious. (also some non-Khalsa keeping kesh do it because THEY see the importance/practicality of it; it does not mean they are right or that you have to follow suit).

NO ONE IS BETTER THAN YOU! A person that has 5ks is not better than you and vice versa. Those that would claim such things are stupid.

I also disagree with you about recruitment. I agree with commander because I don’t think you have established why it is important. To me one of the best qualities of Sikhi is that unlike most religions we don’t profess to be the best. Sikhism is just another path to god, not the best one. So we can spread the message but to be actively involved in missionary work is a different matter entirely. I don’t support missionary activity because the person is cajoled into a new belief system without choosing for him or herself. The matter you brought up with parents teaching their kids becomes more involved and will just digress from the initial message of my post, so I will avoid it for now.

Well that’s all of my rambling. These are simply my personal beliefs as of now, cause they continue to change the more I learn. So in advance I apologize if I have offended anyone, and if there is some egregious error, then pardon it as I'm running on very little sleep. lol.

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lol seems like we are all saying the same stuff just posting a hell of a lot to explain the same ideas..

I agree with hari - amrit is impotent - And neo I will justify, Something which is said to be the nectar of Gods which turns men into lions blah blah have the power to take severed heads and return them to their rightful bodies even though when guru gobind singh ji takes amrit no one cuts his head off and he was taking the role of sikh at that point. That same amrit is given to Banda Singh bahadar and he messed up and lost the plot.

Nowadays millions have taken that same amrit and what they got from it? Nothing more then a placebo effect which lasts until you suddenly realise that the same sikhs you once looked upto now you are a part of that order (institionally) they are no different from normal people.

Sikhi is Naam :) Khalsa is Degh.. :)

Why is the khalsa and amrit of today impotent, because those who are not ment to take it have began to take amrit it has become an institutionalised ritual of pride of identity.

Sikhs are seen as initiated after taking the initiation ceremony which is called amrit, you will see that concept in most modern books on sikhism be it encyclopedias or others, that is not true on the social level or the individual level, hell its not even true in the old ways, but it is true of the new contemporary sikhism which is nothing but an institutionalised label created so that the colonial administration was able to stick sikhs in a box and hence make them easier to control and rule over.

But thats my view.

The khalsa is the khalsa and only hukam and guru kirpa can make the khalsa khalsa, the amrit is nothing without gurukirpa and sikhi is nothing without Naam, and naam can be whatever you understand it as according to your budhi which guru has graced at this moment in time. for me satgurparsad Naam is truth.

:)

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I agree with hari - amrit is impotent - And neo I will justify, Something which is said to be the nectar of Gods which turns men into lions blah blah have the power to take severed heads and return them to their rightful bodies even though when guru gobind singh ji takes amrit no one cuts his head off and he was taking the role of sikh at that point. That same amrit is given to Banda Singh bahadar and he messed up and lost the plot.

Thats your view mate and I respect it.

Its all about faith at the end of day if you think Guru Ji didn't took heads of 5 beloves then thats your bhavna and faith and if you do think Guru Ji took heads of goats instead then Sikhi should have given to goats anyway not us.

I have this sakhi to share with you...

When Guru Nanak dev Ji asked his son if its day or night outside....his son replied its day.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji asked the same question to Bhai Lehna Ji (Later Guru Angad Dev Ji):

Bhai Lehna Ji replied "Gareeb Nawaz, (Jinna Din Rakhna C tusi Rakh laaya, Jinna Raat Rakhni Ch Tusi Rakh Li).

Now compare to those two answers which has more nirmata and vishvas in Guru Parbarhm????

We spent all our life doubting our Guru then we wonder how come saadia andar Naam Amrit nivas kataie Nahi Hunda.

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I hope you are not offended by this. I had many of the same questions as you did when I started out.

However, you seem to assume to know a lot more than you actually do know.You seem to understand very little about Sikhi but seem very eager to ''reform it''. Generally, what this means is that a person doesn't want to keep kesh for whatever reason. Maybe girls, maybe fear of discrimination. You call it a 300 year old mold, but the Guru called the Khalsa Panth His Guru. The Guru Granth Sahib is not ''some book'', it is our current Guru. And if you think that you don't need the Gurus to guide you in Sikhi, you are mistaken. It seems that like many others, you think that just being a good person is enough to make you a good Sikh. Well, it actually doesn't even make you a Sikh.

A Sikh (disciple) has one major duty: obey the Guru's hukum. Only then can the Sikh be freed. Without Amrit, one does not have a Guru. So you see, there is the importance of Amrit. The 5 K's are part of the discipline attached to Amrit. As for those people who don't live the lifestyle, that is there loss. You can't get water out of a well if you don't pump the handle, right?

You are not barred from participation in the community, I see no reason why anybody SHOULD disrespect you or think that they are above you. However, certain duties are reserved for Sikhs, it is part of the Rehit Maryada (code of conduct) given to us by the all-knowing Guru.

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I sincerely apologize from the bottom of my heart if that post hurt your feelings. It was not my intention. However, what the Guru created does not need to ''reformed'' to make everyday life easier for people. Institutions and committees may be corrupt, but what the Gurus created most definitely should not be done away with. One more thing, without a Guru, one cannot realize God, which is the goal of Sikhe.

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I'm still here I don't now whether that will please or not but I'm here.

O.K. don't sell me anything, but then don't regurgitate what others have instilled in you either, rather say what you think, not what ought to be said.

My thoughts are not profound by any means, they are a result of growing up in poverty and sikhism. Sikhism was the shining light that fueled me but has long ago burnt out leaving me scrambling for sustinance elsewhere. What is most upsetting is that Sikhism does have the answers to my problems but I am not entitled to access them since I don't want to fit into a 300 year old mold. My life experiences have probably been duplicated countless times in other Sikh youth but it all goes to waste since there is really nobody listening to our youth.

I am not saying that you or others are not being honest in your answers, rather that they are not personal, they are responses that I can probably get from any temple. I was hoping to discuss the tensions talked of by 'Gupy'. But nobody wants to go there.

Yes you answered my question but to be frank the honest answer you didn't say was you don't know either. But to say that would question your entire existence (I am assuming that you are all that I refuse to become).

I don't need to see the numbers, ask any Sikh scholar (not those on this forum) and they will tell you that the numbers are declining in comparison to the birth rate. It is obvious, but you and others don't want to even accept that point. It is only after you accept this point that you will be able to honestly assess why the numbers are declining. It may have nothing to do with the 5Ks, that is only my hypothesis.

But I will not tolerate someone saying that I am ignorant because I am immature in my experience with your path to sikhism. Someone earlier described me as a person who failed his 12th grade exams and is trying to obtain his PHD. Well you know what, it can be done. I was a high school drop out, I left school at 15. I then re-entered after a long absence straight into Law school. In Canada, Law school is your 2nd degree not first as in the U.K. I am constantly debating PHD and Masters students with them often seeking advice on problems from me. My point is not to toot my own horn but to make you and others realize that there are alot of intelligent people sitting on the sidelines waiting for an invitation to sikhism rather than being shown the exit.

My life has been threatened in the past but not by armed thugs but granthis that don't want Sikhism to change. Why don't these few want it to change? because it is a cash cow.

Our youth is brilliantly talented in anything they wish to do but are not permitted to advise on how to shape the future of Sikhism. This is a great failure and will ultimately spell the demise of Sikhism outside India.

So Sukhi and others say what is at the tip of your tongue when you read my post not what you think you should say. Lets break out of our shells and go a little deeper. I shed mine a long time ago.

Bye, for now

I guess I was typing while the Commander was speaking.

So to respond, if I am the flavour of the month, shame on you for not realizing the gravity of the problem before you. You mean you know all that I am saying and you continue to ignore people like me, that really just want to be included. What is wrong with you, I don't judge you for taking your path.

And am I Sikh? you better believe it. I don't need a book or gurus to guide me in the path of Sikhism I have been lucky to have parents that have taught me to have a conscience and to be aware of my surroundings. You on the other hand have had a constant reminder of pain and suffering but turn your back on it. Are you Sikh?

it's good that u haven't left yet. it just shows ur willingness to either convince us that ur right or to actually *gasp* learn something.

first of all, SWB, i'm not saying things that i don't believe. i can be a very controversial person in my beliefs, but one thing u should learn to recognize is that what i say is what i mean. unless it's quite clear that i'm joking etc. etc.

secondly, for someone who seems to dislike having assumptions made about his background, ur very quick to make assumptions on the things i say and then derive some sort of background for me. for your information (since i think it might actually interest you in knowing this) i am not amritdhari, i do not have all my 5 Ks, and my reasons for being so are most definitely personal.

once again, you're speaking about scholars that no one knows and your telling us that they're seeing a general decline in the "growth" of Sikhi (i'm still laughing at that notion, btw). first of all, i'd like to know if they're only looking at how many people are shying away from Sikhi without recognizing how many others are becoming attracted to Sikhi. and then we can discuss ur theories. but once again, either way, i couldn't care less about quantity. it's about the quality.

as for our youth in not being allowed to have a hand in shaping Sikhism. i have no idea from reading that statement whether you even bothered to look at what everyone else has told you about Sikhi being personal.

furthermore, would you hand over the presidency of a country to a kindergarten kid? of course not. similary, you can't hand over the reigns of "Sikhism" to talented youth who know nothing about Sikhi.

SWB, i believe that you are a Sikh. what i also believe is that you need to educate yourself on Sikhi before making assumptions on what Sikhi is all about. it's as simple as you opening up your mind to truly take the opportunity to learn about the spiritual aspects of Sikhi as well as the political aspects.

and lastly, i agree with what infernal monk has said and i think it's important for you to take a closer look at what another singh has said about having knowledge of Sikhi.

you can't seriously tell me that everything you need to know about Sikhi can be learned from your parents. trust me when i say this, no matter how educated and high thinking your parents are, there is ALWAYS more to be learned. ther is always MORE knowledge out there.

and now, i'm done for the moment.

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I don't want Sikhism to grow.I want it to die :twisted: .This religion of 5 K's and impotent amrit* (lower case "a" on purpose).Pakhandi nimrata, pakhand kirtan.No love, only "them and us".

However, Sikhi of Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar has no need to "grow".It has always been and always will be.

*Khanda Amrit is Amrit of Shakti Mata, and She must be present when it is prepared.But how many Panj nowadays have Shakti?Panj must have Shakti (Shastarvidiya, symbiotic relationship with Parshakti Mata).

These are my views and are open to criticism.

A clarification is in order.N30 Singh has asked, and I shall clarify.First I must admit to my own fault, I tend to be cryptic a lot.I'm sorry but that's just the way I am.If you were you to get to know more intimately, you would soon become frustrated with my oblique answers and questions.I find it hard to express some things I've experienced.Anyway that's enough.

Right, Khanda Amrit is not meant to be impotent in the first place.It is stirred by a Khanda, a weapon which represents Adishakti Parshakti (read Var Durga Ki, it's there, Khanda = Eka Mai).Therefore it is Shakti Amrit.It is meant to be very potent.But nowadays you get "mass market" "amrit".Which is not good.Khanda Amrit is the Amrit of Death.You have to be willing to die for Dharma if you're going to be Amritdhari.There are many who call themselves Amritdhari, but are they Amritdhari?Are they really?Even if one of the Panj who prepares Amrit is faulty, then that which they make is not Amrit.I know for a fact that Khanda Amrit has been made by paapi "Panj Pyara" (somebody I used to know who used to have sex with his daughter in law, and be a Panj Pyara :x ).So that's one way Khanda Amrit isn't Amrit.Another I believe is if the Panj aren't proper Singh.I mean Shastardhari tyar bar tyar, know how to wield that Khanda they use to make Amrit :twisted: .You know what I mean?

I don't like 5 K's, "Amrit chhako!!", "I am Amritdhari" blah blah Sikhism.This is Sikhism, a religion.Religion is bad, always has been.Ask the Christian Gnostics.

Where is 5 K's mentioned in Gurbani or old history?Nowhere matey!As far as I've found, you have the trai-mudra and Panj Shastar Parvan.Why don't the "Amritdhari'" of today follow this Hukam of 5 Shastar Parvan?Is the 5 K a sort of insipid compromise by boot licking Singh Sabhias?Oh I know we'll just have a pathetic excuse for a kara and kirpan, just so we don't draw too much attention to ourselves, by the fact that the Khalsa Panth is actually supposed to carry weapons not pieces of metal that are "symbols".It's ridiculous how so many Amritdhari are duped into thinking that the piece of metal they wear on a gatra is a kirpan, a nar-nakha maybe, but not a kirpan.And do they know how to use one?Are they willing to put in the years of practice to learn how to use one effectively?

Tiro tufango bado ram jango, dhamak dhar, ani-ar, kamand korara, Panj Shastar Parvan!!Suno Nand Lal yeh saj!!Pargat Karun apna raj!

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I don't have much time today to respond so I apologize for shortness of answers I mean no harm.

1. I stated very early that I have no credibility, it is others that suggested there are no experts here and therefore I should feel free to speak.

2. Yes, I made an assumption about 'Sukhi' but like any good writer I acknowledged it before someone could call me on it, unlike others that made assumptions about me.

3. The fact that you keep the reasons for your non-participation in the 5Ks to yourself is exactly the type of answers I was looking for. I am not asking you to out yourself but realize that if there is anything in your reasons that could apply to others it maybe helpful to hear it.

4. An assumption was made that I believe my parents can teach me everything. I didn't say anything of the sought, in fact my parents no very little about the faith. What I was trying to get at is that there are countless millions of people that live there daily lives in an honest way but have never been influenced by Sikhism. I believe they are also Sikhs even if they don't know it.

5. I have heard some posters tell me that I am Sikh, while others continue to try and strip me of my faith. You need to take long hard look at your actions, what purpose do they serve? If it is the protection of your faith what have I done to threaten it? My only intention is to strengthen it.

6. Yes, I am the first to say I know very little about Sikhi but does that make my comments any less valid? No one has addressed some of the others that have agreed with my comments. I guess they are too ignorant to be answered also.

7. On the topic of my scholars with no names, I am sorry that I don't have time right now to dig up the stuff I have read in the past but I don't lie and have nothing to benefit from lying. The retention rate for Judaism is also on the decline, Jewish scholars recognize it and are trying to address it. Heck they are the chosen people and their numbers are declining what does that say for Sikhs and any other relatively new faith.

8. I asked in one of my posts what happened to the process for people like me that wanted to take Amrit but didn't want to keep the 5Ks? Why is nobody addressing that, was I mistaken? If there was such a process who took it away and who gave them the right to take it away? Did a new Guru show up when I wasn't looking. It is these people that need to be banished from calling themselves Sikh.

9. I remember when I was a kid my mom used to take me to Wednesfield Gurdwara. There was a white brit that used to come in regularily, I often asked my mom why he was here and she would point to a sign that said all are welcome. I loved that sign and despise those that have put up the new sign on the entire faith that says 'enter only when you submit to the 5Ks'.

10. I am a member of student govt at my law school, the faculty and administration include us in every committee whether it is finance, policy, HR etc. but notably we are on the admissions committee. This year I will be reviewing applications to decide who may enter the law school. The faculty and administration are the first to recognize the value of our input. Most bodies welcome input from all participants, it is only dictators that want no input.

11. Even if all of my recommendations are not welcome, we are not even able to move forward on those that we agree on since we have no one listening to us.

Charn

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I feel I have already said this, but I will repeat it again. I don't think one needs to take amrit to be a good "Sikh." I agree with those that said it is just water. If the person taking amrit does not make a decision to live their life according to certain principles then drinking sweetened water isn't gonna do anything for you. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it is just that...sweetened water. If I was to follow the way of the Khalsa without taking amrit, would that mean anything? Not to me, but to others maybe.

I also am opposed to institutionalization of the faith, which is exactly what will happen when people need to define every little thing. To me Sikhism is great because it is a way of life not some rules you follow. SikhWannabe you have a very western mind set; why the need to define and catagorize everything? You seem to just want acceptance from people that look down on you...it seems you are very much for the institutionalization of the faith....you want an example of what happens to a faith in those circumstances take a look at the Catholic Chruch.

I mean the "institutionalization" of Sikhi began back when the British were in India...

I honestly don't understand what more you want. There are so many posts here and you don't seem satisfied with the replies. Perhaps we aren't answering the questions to your satisfaction, but atleast let us know which specific part of your question has gone unanswered..

You asked for personal opinions on whether the 5ks were stunting the growth of Sikhi, and you got many responses...just because they are not to your liking does not mean they are not what you asked for...

Don't take this as an attack, just trying to understand what exactly it is you are asking..

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Nobody can ''strip you of your faith'' and nobody is trying to. But you have the info in front of you about the goal of Sikhe, and one of the necessary steps to reach that goal (Amrit). It's up to you what you want to do with that. And if you do actually have faith, then it would be something that you would prepare to embark upon. A Sikh may have whatever doubts he wants, but ultimately, those who doubt the Guru drown in the world ocean and don't make it to the goal. And it is not totally us who define what a Sikh is, it is the Guru. That is the only definition that ultimately counts.

There is no process to be given Amrit without the mandatory discipline of the 5 Ks. Seriously....is this just b/c you don't want to wear a dastar and keep kesh?

you're complaining about not being 'allowed to give input'? Since when? Every Gurdwara committee is different. Talk to them, some listen, some don't. Some may listen and decide your idea isn't in the best interest of the Gurdwara. Some may think it is.

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What I was trying to get at is that there are countless millions of people that live there daily lives in an honest way but have never been influenced by Sikhism. I believe they are also Sikhs even if they don't know it.

How can someone who doesn't believe in the Guru and Gurbani be a Sikh?

5. I have heard some posters tell me that I am Sikh, while others continue to try and strip me of my faith. You need to take long hard look at your actions, what purpose do they serve? If it is the protection of your faith what have I done to threaten it? My only intention is to strengthen it.

No one can strip you of your faith due to its very nature. As far as your intentions, you probably mean well but changing the Khalsa in the ways you want is beyond any man's reach.

6. Yes, I am the first to say I know very little about Sikhi but does that make my comments any less valid?

We are reading what you have written, and some of us disagree with most of your points. By your own admission, you also lack credibility. You are also confusing some of the issues and do not seem to have an appreciation of Sikh history.

The retention rate for Judaism is also on the decline, Jewish scholars recognize it and are trying to address it.

Again, Sikhs should not care about numbers.

Heck they are the chosen people...

:D Sure they are.

8. I asked in one of my posts what happened to the process for people like me that wanted to take Amrit but didn't want to keep the 5Ks? Why is nobody addressing that, was I mistaken? If there was such a process who took it away and who gave them the right to take it away?

The "5Ks" are a neccessary requirement. Don't want to keep them? Don't become a Khalsa.

Did a new Guru show up when I wasn't looking. It is these people that need to be banished from calling themselves Sikh.

A Khalsa is always a Sikh, while the converse need not be true.

9. I remember when I was a kid my mom used to take me to Wednesfield Gurdwara. There was a white brit that used to come in regularily, I often asked my mom why he was here and she would point to a sign that said all are welcome. I loved that sign and despise those that have put up the new sign on the entire faith that says 'enter only when you submit to the 5Ks'.

You seem to be confusing a Sikh with a Khalsa. And, indeed, all are welcome in the darbar of Guru Nanak without anyone trying to 'convert' them.

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Since I have no credibility maybe you can respond to the scholars below, for the record 'commander', none of us are experts meaning you have no credibililty either.

I endorse Sr. B.S. Mahal’s views expressed in his article ‘Sikhs : A Nation Divided’ (S.R. May 1995) that :

“The current definition of Who is a Sikh? appears inadequate, too restrictive and perhaps outmoded. The writer feels that, in the name of communal peace and growth, consideration should be given to the idea of extending the term ‘Sehajdhari’, or some other terms, to embody the Monais within the Sikh fold.â€

This is possible only if the term ‘Khalsa’ were to be interpreted in the light of the Hukumnamas issued by the Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh administered Khande-da-Amrit, replacing Charan Pahul, on the Baisakhi day in the year 1699. I quote below from Prof. Ganda Singh’s book Hukumnamas :

* Guru Hargobind’s Hukumnama : Purab di Sangat Guru da Khalsa hoe. (P. 66.)

* Guru Tegh Bahadur’s Hukumnama : Patna di Sangat Sri Guru Jida Khalsa hai. (P. 76).

* Guru Gobind Singh’s Hukumnama dated 12th march, 1699 - prior to Baisakhi day : Sarbat Sangat Machhiware ki Guru rakhega. Sangat mera Khalsa hai. (P. 153.)

This historical evidence undoubtedly means that the term ‘Khalsa’ included the whole Sikh Sangat (Amritdharis as well as Sehajdharis). Why should they be excluded now?

Bhai Kahan Singh in his book ‘Sikh Ceremonies’ referring to the Sikh community as a whole, writes :

“The general body of the Sikh community is divided into two classes. The Sahajdhari or Civilian Sikhs and Keshdhari Singhs or the warrior Sikhs.â€

In this background I make an earnest appeal to all the Sikh scholars, theologians, leaders and, especially, the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee to embrace our Sehajdhari Sikh brethren and bring them into the fold of the broad-based Khalsa Sikh Sangat as commanded by our Gurus in their Hukumnamas. They must form an integral part of the mainstream of the Sikh community.

In fact, the answer to ‘Who is a Sikh?" is exquisitely and meticulously laid in the following Shabad by Guru RamDas Ji :

Gur-Satgu(u) ka jo Sikh akhaye

so bhalke uth Har Naam Dhiyave

Udam kare bhalke parbhati

Isnan kare Amritsar Nhavey.

(S.G.G.S. 305)

Similarly, ‘Who is a Khalsa?’ is defined by Guru Gobind Singh

Jagat jot jappey nis-basur, ek bina man naik na aney (33 Swayyas)

The emphasis on the basic and fundamental mandate : Hari Naam dhiyaway andJagat jot jappey must be noted.

Prof. HARMINDAR SINGH

46 Sudbury Court, Harrow

Middlesex HA1 3TD

London (UK)

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In fact, the answer to ‘Who is a Sikh?" is exquisitely and meticulously laid in the following Shabad by Guru RamDas Ji :

Gur-Satgu(u) ka jo Sikh akhaye

so bhalke uth Har Naam Dhiyave

Udam kare bhalke parbhati

Isnan kare Amritsar Nhavey.

(S.G.G.S. 305)

You can follow this quote it will help you with this spirituality but won't get you mukht you know why because Naam is not something you just make it yourself in Sikhi and say i m jappin on this name but rather you get Naam from Sant Mahatama in form of Panj Pyares. Naam which is given by Sant/Mahatama can only be your saviour. Its a same Naam but Sant Mahatama give you Naam which they have done Kaamiya.

Its like if you take amrit from Sant Mahatama in form of Panj Pyares...they are not just giving you Naam but their Kaamiya(acculmation of that Naam) as in they are sharing their bhakti with jagaasou(learner)...obviously then you are not automatically mukht unless you are super blessed (all 5 panj pyares are saints)...you have to make an effort to do simran on that naam..do naam abhayas ...follow- Naam, Dhaan, Ishanan.

So this quote above it applies half to people who don't have amrit with Naam but applies to fully to those Sikhs who have taken amrit.

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All you got to do is Naam, be it through recitation, meditation or good action according to what you understand to be truth at this moment in time according to the budhi maharaj has graced you with and learning to increase that budhi to better understand your truth and hence develope it.

You're all full of contradictions, simply parsing the quote does not answer the questions raised by the existence of a book about the divided sikh nation nor the concern to unite it by the Professor who reviewed it.

These are real concerns, not addressed by anyone here.

The Singh Sabha movement can also be cited as a desire to see Sikhism flourish. I may not agree with how they did it but they evince the desire to grow and yes it is definately a qualitative growth but still growth, which implies recruitment or retention.

And if you read back through the pages of posts it is not I the newbie that knows nothing about Sikhism that has offended its pillars but rather those that think they know more. Eg. making fun of another religion etc.

Charn

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