Do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?

[SikhKhoj]

And yes Guru Nanak Sahib had kesh and also gave updesh to keep hair to his Sikhs (Janamsakhis and non Punjabi Nanakpanthis keeping hair in Saudi Arabia, Iraq till last century are witness to that fact). Historians who claim that Sikhs pre 1699 were mostly cleanshaven + wore topi seli (including the Gurus) are wrong.

In my views, Khalsa was created by Guru Nanak Sahib and completed by Guru Gobind Singh.

[drawrof]

I came across a reference, almost a decade ago now, of how the first charanpahul occured with bhai lehna during gurugaddi when bhai lehna ji became guru angad...the source was ishar singh nara. Any comments? can anyone corroborate.

[SikhKhoj]

Charan Pahul existed unlike missionaries would like you to believe. I think it happened before Bhai Lehna too because Sangat in Arabia got Charan Pahul from Jagat Guru Nanak according to Arabic manuscripts in Punjab.

Edited May 17, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

Which arabic manuscripts are these? When are they from and what do they say? Interesting.

[SikhKhoj]

I have been in talks with the person who has them, they will be published soon. Till then no information. Some of the names are available online (Siyahto, etc) but there are many more Arabic Granths obtained and kept safely with some Sikh historians.

[kdsingh80]

And yes Guru Nanak Sahib had kesh and also gave updesh to keep hair to his Sikhs (Janamsakhis and non Punjabi Nanakpanthis keeping hair in Saudi Arabia, Iraq till last century are witness to that fact). Historians who claim that Sikhs pre 1699 were mostly cleanshaven + wore topi seli (including the Gurus) are wrong.

In my views, Khalsa was created by Guru Nanak Sahib and completed by Guru Gobind Singh.

The problem is there is not even a single line in guru granth sahib that say a sikh should keep hair . Not even in bhai Gurdas we found any reference about importance of keeping hair for a sikh . How come Guru prior to Guru Gobind Singh or even Bhai Gurdas did not write about importance of hair for a sikh

[CdnSikhGirl]

As someone who wasnt born into Sikhi, I do not think 5 k's are stunting growth of Sikhi... opposite actually!

I have fully adopted and WANTED to adopt the 5 K's. Coming to Sikhi on my own, I WANTED everyone to know I chose this path. I wanted to stand out, I feel somehow different especially since I started to tie a dastar. Some Sikh guys dislike women tying turbans, but let me tell you, I see something different in me since I have. It's been a full year now and I can't ever see me going back to bare headed. And a chunni is just not possible for anything that involves well... movement lol. Unless you want to strangle yourself with it!

I think the Khalsa roop actually helps to draw people to Sikhi... not prevent it from spreading!

I know turban is not one of the 5 k's but it's still a must and still part of the image of Kkalsa. I also cant imagine cutting my hair.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[IJJSingh]

Which arabic manuscripts are these? When are they from and what do they say? Interesting.

In the year 1511, during Guru Nanak’s journeys in the Middle East, a local author, Taajudin Naqshabandhi, joined Guru Nanak and remained with him for roughly one-and-a-half to two years. Taajudin documented his time with Guru Nanak in great detail. Four centuries later, a young man from Kashmir, Syed Mushtaq Hussain, chanced upon Taajudin’s handwritten manuscript while studying to become an Islamic scholar at the Medina University. This manuscript changed Mushtaq’s life. He converted to Sikhism and went on to become the renowned Sant Syed Prithipal Singh.

An excerpt from Sant Prithipal Singh ji's biography and information on Taajudin's manuscript is available at the link below:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B39vxC8IGIWFbTlST1ctX2psdEk

[SikhKhoj]

That is just the tip of the iceberg, there are many more. And btw, Medina university was founded in 1960s while Syed visited Medina in 1930s, so your source seems to have some mistakes.

[SikhKhoj]

The problem is there is not even a single line in guru granth sahib that say a sikh should keep hair . Not even in bhai Gurdas we found any reference about importance of keeping hair for a sikh . How come Guru prior to Guru Gobind Singh or even Bhai Gurdas did not write about importance of hair for a sikh

hukam rajaee chalna - isn't remaining in an uncircumcised state 'hukam' manana?

napak pak kar hadoor hadeesa, sabat soorat dastar sira

And sometimes historical books do keep quite on 'trivial' or very known facts because they assume everyone knows them and thus they are not worth mentioning. This is also why we have very limited number of accounts of the Vaisakhi where Khalsa was completed by Guru Gobind Singh, perhaps because the authors thought that the whole episode was still fresh in the minds of Sikhs a few decades later.

But if you search you will find quite some manuscripts where Guru Nanak Sahib talks about keeping kesh.

[kdsingh80]

hukam rajaee chalna - isn't remaining in an uncircumcised state 'hukam' manana?

napak pak kar hadoor hadeesa, sabat soorat dastar sira

And sometimes historical books do keep quite on 'trivial' or very known facts because they assume everyone knows them and thus they are not worth mentioning. This is also why we have very limited number of accounts of the Vaisakhi where Khalsa was completed by Guru Gobind Singh, perhaps because the authors thought that the whole episode was still fresh in the minds of Sikhs a few decades later.

But if you search you will find quite some manuscripts where Guru Nanak Sahib talks about keeping kesh.

Saabat sura dastar sira is grossly misinerpreted by many. The whole shabad is addressed to muslim and clearly it reflect that Guru ji is telling them to give more importance to their spirituality rather than outward appearance.

Also where we can find many reference to non sikh historians about sikhs keeping unshorn here pre 1699 . There are plenty by persian and European quotes about sikhs keeping hair after 1699

[SikhKhoj]

Guru Nanak created Nirmal Panth (pure) according to Bhai Gurdas. Nirmal Panth = Khalsa Panth

There was no changing of teachings, it was the same. Shasters were also worn before guru gobind singh. The tenth Guru just finalised Sikh teachings.

A Sikh does not become Khalsa merely by taking 'amrit' but by the following loving Parmatma. The word Khalsa is mentioned in SGGS.

Page 655, Line 1
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਏ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||
Devotee Kabir

And no Dasam Granth does not mention the 5 Kakkaars, it is a shabad attributed to Nand Lal contained in some Buddha Dal gutkas that might confuse you admin.

[SikhKhoj]

But due to some personal commitments (time limit) I can't partake in this interesting debate. I know Sher has some vested interests in denying the importance of kesh and other external rehat which differentiates Sikhs from Hindus.

And its also not the first time that KDSingh and I have the discussion.

Hope someone can take over and guide these two.

The clue lies in the fact that Guru Nanak Sahib wasn't only a saint but also had political teachings and was a revolutionary. Guru Nanak asked his arabic Sikhs to keep kesh (I refer to Syed Prithipal Singh who was an ex Muslim who met these Arabic Sikhs last century). Sobti Sikhs in Iraq also only knew of Guru Nanak but kept uncut hair.

Gyan Ratnavli and other Janamsakhis clearly mention that Guru Nanak asked Bhai Mardana to keep kesh.

Guru Nanak had long uncut kesh according to Mehervaan Janamsakhi.

Hukam Rajaee Chalna is the biggest proof for Khalsa Rehat of keeping uncut kesh & anti circumcision.

[SikhKhoj]

So Shabads adressed to Hindus do not count for Sikhs? Or Shabads to Muslims don't count for Sikhs? Gurbani has one updesh for all humanity, the updesh did not change from person to person. Thats a flawed logic you have there.

Prof Sahib Singh clearly states the the tuk means to stop thinking of hair removal (sunnah - shaving moustache, removing pubic hair, armpit hair) as purity, instead let your sabat soorat (uncircumcised state) be the purity.

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧੨॥

ਹੇ ਅੱਲਾ ਦੇ ਬੰਦੇ! (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ) ਮਲੀਨ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਜਤਨ ਕਰ-ਇਹੀ ਹੈ ਰੱਬੀ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਸ਼ਰਹ ਦੀ ਕਿਤਾਬ। (ਸੁੰਨਤਿ, ਲਬਾਂ ਕਟਾਣ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਰਹ ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ) ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਕਲ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਉਂ ਕਾ ਤਿਉਂ ਰੱਖ-ਇਹ (ਲੋਕ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ) ਇੱਜ਼ਤ-ਆਦਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਵਸੀਲਾ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧੨॥

[SikhKhoj]

Also where we can find many reference to non sikh historians about sikhs keeping unshorn here pre 1699 . There are plenty by persian and European quotes about sikhs keeping hair after 1699

How many pre 1699 non Sikh sources do even exist? Just a few, no?

[kdsingh80]

But due to some personal commitments (time limit) I can't partake in this interesting debate. I know Sher has some vested interests in denying the importance of kesh and other external rehat which differentiates Sikhs from Hindus.

And its also not the first time that KDSingh and I have the discussion.

Hope someone can take over and guide these two.

The clue lies in the fact that Guru Nanak Sahib wasn't only a saint but also had political teachings and was a revolutionary. Guru Nanak asked his arabic Sikhs to keep kesh (I refer to Syed Prithipal Singh who was an ex Muslim who met these Arabic Sikhs last century). Sobti Sikhs in Iraq also only knew of Guru Nanak but kept uncut hair.

Gyan Ratnavli and other Janamsakhis clearly mention that Guru Nanak asked Bhai Mardana to keep kesh.

Guru Nanak had long uncut kesh according to Mehervaan Janamsakhi.

Hukam Rajaee Chalna is the biggest proof for Khalsa Rehat of keeping uncut kesh & anti circumcision.

I am not doubting that Guru Nanak or or his very close sikhs kept hair. The question whether there was a sizeable population of sikhs who kept kesh pre 1699

here is discussion on sikhnet about the reaction of Delhi sikhs about khalsa creation

http://www.sikhmatrimonials.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/35D9143179D11ACD8725734C00530C61!OpenDocument

And also a book which mention

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=q0ZpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=mughal+court++creation+of+khalsa+fight+between+khatri&source=bl&ots=IvYDkf7nKw&sig=0Z2g-jD6l4vp50AEvevRfWF2bjM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qlNaVcj4B9OwuATcuoG4Cw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

That many sikhs were surprised and some even refused to accept the code of conduct of khalsa

also there are hukamnama's of Guru gobind singh telling his sikhs to stop bhaddan ceremony

From that it clearly look that bhaddan was widespread among sikhs pre 1699

[Kuttabanda2]

I have been in talks with the person who has them, they will be published soon. Till then no information. Some of the names are available online (Siyahto, etc) but there are many more Arabic Granths obtained and kept safely with some Sikh historians.

About time. I heard there were manuscript copies kept in England By family members of Sant Sayed Pritpal Singh.

[Kuttabanda2]

K-Banda, do you accept that historically there was a large community called Sahejdharis who did not maintain the external Khalsa Rehat but were still a part and played a huge rule in our Panth i.e. Bhai Moti Ram Mehra, Todar Mal, Bhai Kanhaiya, Diwan Mittha Mal and many more.

Yes I do accept that. They preserved many artifacts, historical places, and shrines of the Guru.

[Kuttabanda2]

I am not doubting that Guru Nanak or or his very close sikhs kept hair. The question whether there was a sizeable population of sikhs who kept kesh pre 1699

here is discussion on sikhnet about the reaction of Delhi sikhs about khalsa creation

http://www.sikhmatrimonials.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/35D9143179D11ACD8725734C00530C61!OpenDocument

And also a book which mention

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=q0ZpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=mughal+court++creation+of+khalsa+fight+between+khatri&source=bl&ots=IvYDkf7nKw&sig=0Z2g-jD6l4vp50AEvevRfWF2bjM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qlNaVcj4B9OwuATcuoG4Cw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

That many sikhs were surprised and some even refused to accept the code of conduct of khalsa

also there are hukamnama's of Guru gobind singh telling his sikhs to stop bhaddan ceremony

From that it clearly look that bhaddan was widespread among sikhs pre 1699

It may have been widespread but it doesn't equate to it being accepted by the Guru.

[SikhKhoj]

The Sikhnet post mentions Sri Gur Sobha. It was most probably not written in 1701 but 1741 as claimed by some scholars. Thus the claims made in those post may not be valid given the gap of 42 years.

The book by Purnima dhavan also quotes Sainapati which is the same source as above.

And if we were to go by some of these accounts then Guru Gobind Singh also meditated on Devi before creating Khalsa or sought her blessings? Just saying that these accounts are not the final word.

Why would Guru and his close Sikhs keep kesh but not more? Why did Arab Sikhs have kesh till the 20th century when they even did not take khandi di pahul? They said they are followers of Nanak and keep kesh as he ordered them to.

Edited May 19, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

Sikhkhoj: Who are these arab Sikhs you're talking about? Where can I read about them and where are they now?

Edited May 19, 2015 by amardeep

[Kuttabanda2]

The Sikhnet post mentions Sri Gur Sobha. It was most probably not written in 1701 but 1741 as claimed by some scholars. Thus the claims made in those post may not be valid given the gap of 42 years.

The book by Purnima dhavan also quotes Sainapati which is the same source as above.

And if we were to go by some of these accounts then Guru Gobind Singh also meditated on Devi before creating Khalsa or sought her blessings? Just saying that these accounts are not the final word.

Why would Guru and his close Sikhs keep kesh but not more? Why did Arab Sikhs have kesh till the 20th century when they even did not take khandi di pahul? They said they are followers of Nanak and keep kesh as he ordered them to.

What is the evidence in regards to Sri Gursobha's date of completion presented by Scholars for this claim? From what I've heard two manuscripts had two different dates penned on them.

Das Gur Katha mentions the praying to the Devi, not Sri Gursobha or Sri Gur Katha.

The Arab Sikhs weren't connected with the rest of the Sikhs of India, so all the developments of the Sikh Panth hadn't reached them. Might have been a reason why Baba Deep Singh Ji was said to have prepared a Bir In Arabic.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Kuttabanda2

[jaikaara]

Of what i have heard from a person there are still some groups who practice indic religions in secrecy in Arabia

[SikhKhoj]

What is the evidence in regards to Sri Gursobha's date of completion presented by Scholars for this claim? From what I've heard two manuscripts had two different dates penned on them.

Das Gur Katha mentions the praying to the Devi, not Sri Gursobha or Sri Gur Katha.

The Arab Sikhs weren't connected with the rest of the Sikhs of India, so all the developments of the Sikh Panth hadn't reached them. Might have been a reason why Baba Deep Singh Ji was said to have prepared a Bir In Arabic.

How come Gur Sobha was written in '1701' but mentions events from1708 too?

'1701' is out of question.

And I didnt say Gur Sobha mentions Devi, I just said "by some of these accounts", meaning some of these so called puratan books. Das Gur Katha is fake too just like Sri Gur Katha. [don't want to discuss on this point]

Exactly my point about Arab and Iraqi Sikhs, they did not have connection with Sikhi after Guru Nanak (or limited) but yet maintain Kesh and recited Japji. They used to say Guru Nanak asked them to keep their hair.

There were dozens of such nanakpanthi families last century, but yes they follow their faith in secrecy in Islamic countries.

[amardeep]

Where can one read about these Arab Sikhs?