amardeep Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 I dont think we will ever be able to know the truth regarding Banda Singh Bahdadur. I have done a lot of reading about him from both sides and my conclusion is that he started as a good guy but fell prey to his ego and , butchered civilians and fought against another fraction of sikh warriors. At the end of his life he realised his mistakes and became "enlightened" when he talked of karma and dharma in the last minutes of his life. This is a conclusion i have reached that im satisfied with. One thing that bothers me however is the mentioning of Mata Sundari and Her Majesty being brainwashed by the mughals and falling into their trap. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhan96Crore Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 1. Why should Banda Singh Bahadur not have got married? -Usually we hear of supposed Hukams from Guru Sahib in this respect, however where are there hukams? lolololololol - this view is totally wrong!!! The reasons why maharaj told him not to get married into gristi life is simple - maharaj wanted baba ji to concentrate only on JUNG, NOTHING ELSE!!! maharaj knew that if he got married he would start to forget about his purpose for his mission, which was JUNG JUNG JUNG. Many past jathedars of the panth did not get married, they did sole seva for the panth e.g Baba Deep Singh, Akali Baba Phula Singh etc. Redarding the hukumnama maharaj sent him it was basically a reminder to Baba Banda Singh Bahadur of what maharaj already told him, that as long as you do what i have told you to do you will have Fateh, when these orders are not followed then you will fall. e.g. this happened when Baba Banda Singh Bahadur split from Tat Khalsa after falling out with the then Budha Dal jathedar Baba Binaud Singh. --- then leading to 96 Crode Khalsa not helping Baba ji in Jung ultimetley leading to his capture and giving shaheedi. Yes Dasam Pita got married 3 times but that doesn't mean that Baba Banda Singh could , or me you or anyone else. That was maharaj and no one should ever try and bring on that view that whatever maharaj did we can do, or he could do because that is beadbi. Baba Banda Singh Bahadur did great things for the Khalsa Panth and his achievements should be looked at rather than the errors he made, at the end of the day he fought great jungs and destroyed everyone in sirhind that never raised a voice at the treatment the sahibzade were given, he gave shaheedi for the Khalsa Panth alongside many great things he did for Panjab. Dhan Shaheed Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 i think that you will find that Baba Binod Singh fell out with Baba Banda Bahadur over battle tactics, and that was way after Baba Banda Bahadur "ignored " guru's hukam. shortly after this falling out between Binod Singh and Banda Bahadur, Banda Bahadur was captured in gurdas nangal and became shaheed in delhi. all the stuff that that we hear bad about him, never actually made Binod Singh leave his side. and this budha dal, jathedar stuff? budha dal wasnt even created then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 According to Suraj Parkash, Baba Binod Singh complained about Banda Singh to Guru Sahib, I don't remember if he was told to carry on his duty alongside Banda Singh or if he left him then. I'll try to find the katha and listen...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhan96Crore Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 uumm not really i think you will find that Baba Binaud Singh and Baba Kahn Singh fell out with Baba Banda Singh Bahadur than more than just 'battle tactics' lol. It all started when baba banda singh got married the first time, then second etc, over jhatka, then when baba banda singh got hankaar and started bandai khalsa leading to the split between tat khalsa and bandai. Please dont believe me just read all the puratan granths suraj parkash, panth parkash too get all the details. and this budha dal, jathedar stuff? budha dal wasnt even created then. lol again read puratan granths to find out panth khalsa full detailed history, budhal dal go's back to Baba Budha Ji in the 6th Gurus time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 lol again read puratan granths to find out panth khalsa full detailed history, budhal dal go's back to Baba Budha Ji in the 6th Gurus time Veer Ji, which granth supports this? Buddha and Taruna Dals were formed in the mid to late 1700s. They certainly don't go back to Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji's time, or even Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 lol again read puratan granths to find out panth khalsa full detailed history, budhal dal go's back to Baba Budha Ji in the 6th Gurus time. only in the minds of Budha Dal. Budha Dal was created for those people of a certain age ie over 40. Taruna Dal was for under 40s. this was under Nawab Kapur Singh. were all of the sikhs over 40 in the 4 battles of Guru Hargobind Sahib? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 What's wrong with if a person wants to marry? Did Baba Binaud Singh jee also remain single all his life? If not, then why would he expect Baba Banda Singh to remain single for the rest of his life? As far as I know there has never been any taboo for marriage amongst the Sikhs. If fact, before the Singh Sabha movement even polygamy was considered normal amongst the Sikhs as it was part of Indian culture. I've always heard that the differences between Banda Singh Bahadur and Binod Singh were based on difference of battle tactics. Binod Singh wanted to carry out guerrilla warfare while Banda Singh Bahadur to carry out a conventional war. It's similar to how the differences arose between the Marathas and Jats right before the 3rd battle of Panipat. The Jats wanted to beat Ahmad Shah Abdali using guerrilla warfare while the Marathas wanted a conventional war with Abdali. This differences of opinion led the Jats to leave the Maratha camp and result was the Marathas lost to the Afghans due to lack of help from the Jats during the 3rd battle of Panipat. And weren't the Buddha Dal and Taruna Dal created by Navab Kapur Singh Jee? I'm not aware of any Budha Dal before that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 What's wrong with if a person wants to marry? Nothing, except in this case, he was told not to. There is good katha of this from Suraj Parkash Granth on gurmatveechar.com and gurbaniupdesh.com. Search for Gyani Thakur Singh Ji's katha, then Suraj Parkash. It comes towards the end. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 But why would Guru Gobind Singh jee tell Baba Banda Singh Bahadur to not marry? Didn't Guru Jee promote Grahisti Jeevan? In fact since Gurus themselves married, isn't it considered Gurmat as exemplified by the fact that the Gurus themselves married and had children? Perhaps we shouldn't take everything in Suraj Prakash as being 100% accurate. After all, it was written about 150 yrs AFTER those events took place. The simple rule is, anywhere in Janam Sakhis, Suraj Prakash where a Saakhi is not in line with Gurmat (according to Sikh canonical writings) should not be considered as being 100% accurate. Sikh cannonical writings are SGGSJ, Dasam Granth, Vara/Kabit of Bhai Gurdas, writings of Bhai Nand Lal and I am inclined to even include Sarbloh Granth in that list. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Of course, you're right that Suraj Parkash is not 100% accurate. However, there seems to be agreement on this issue. Also remember that Bhai Daya Singh Ji didn't marry (I'm not sure about the other Pyaare) so it isn't compulsory. There must have been a reason why he was given that hukam. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Matheen: what was Mata Sundaris view in all of this? the lenghty article on page 1 describes it as she was brainwashed by the mughals etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Valli Singh Ji, what are your sources for this, apart from Niddar's website? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 again i ask the question if budha dal means thsoe over 40, were all of Guru Jis army in the 4 battles over 40? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Nothing, except in this case, he was told not to. There is good katha of this from Suraj Parkash Granth on gurmatveechar.com and gurbaniupdesh.com. Search for Gyani Thakur Singh Ji's katha, then Suraj Parkash. It comes towards the end. But for what reason would Guru Jee make a special rule only for Banda Singh Bahadur and himself live a Grahisti jeevan while also promoting a Grahisti jeevan for the rest of the Singhs. Bhai Daya Singh Jee didn't marry, not because Guru jee told him not to, but because he didn't marry out of his own free will. Same thing with Baba Deep Singh Jee. Then why would Banda Singh Bahadur have this special rule imposed on him alone and not anyone else which doesn't make sense on Gurmat point of view. Other stories also do not make much sense regarding the story of Banda Singh Bahadur. Namdharis made a very good point when they question the whole story of Guru Gobind Singh Jee doing Jhatka of Bakras that were at the Dera of Lachman Das. Since Lachman Das was a fanatical vegetarian, why would he keep Bakras at his Dera???? That's something to think about. Even though Suraj Prakash is one of my favourite books, but not everything in it can be said to be 100% accurate regarding the life of the Gurus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Maybe to see progress and devolopement? Banda Singh Bahadur was given the hukam to go to panjab and kill wazir khan. If he got married and had to support a wife that would interfere in his work and hold him back. so its because it was more practical to keep him on the path of yudh. Besides what kind of husband would he be if he got married and then went to war leaving her behind to support herself 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 The Dals themselves agree that they were formed in the mid 1700s.......it isn't an issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Maybe to see progress and devolopement? Banda Singh Bahadur was given the hukam to go to panjab and kill wazir khan. If he got married and had to support a wife that would interfere in his work and hold him back. so its because it was more practical to keep him on the path of yudh. Besides what kind of husband would he be if he got married and then went to war leaving her behind to support herself Besides Banda Bahadur, every male Sikh was a warrior. There were no civilian Khalsas back then, yet most of them married, in fact due to shortage of men, many had to even support two wives and have a great many number of children to support the next generation of Khalsas. Being a warrior does not prevent one from marrying women and having children. Take for example Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh who killed Massarangarh were also married men, yet that didn't prevent them from killing Massarangarh. I personally know of people who are descendents of Mehtab Singh and that goes for countless other examples of Singhs who were full times warriors, got Shaheed yet were married with a woman and had children. No matter which angle you look at it from, the claim that Guru Gobind Singh jee could have made a special rule for Banda Singh Bahadur alone to be celibate doesn't make sense at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 To me it makes sense. Dont be restrained by a household, you have an important task to complete. therefore remain a celibate.. it was an exception 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhan96Crore Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 lol mithar Look its simple pita ji gave him hukam not to marry because he wanted to , simple as that, why? JUNG JUNG JUNG ONLY! Thats it, simple as that just because maharaj gave him that hukum doesn't mean he was againt gristi life, baba banda singh had alot of work to do in punjab , im talking alot, plus baba banda singh was roughley the same age as maharaj 40-42 abouts when pita ji blessed him in nanded, then maharaj sent him on his mission to kill the malesh. Im talking not just about sirhind but how he raided all of panjab and beyond, sorted out the zimidari system of panjab with the internal politics of that time that the malesh were running on etc. Look this issue with baba ji getting married and so on, so fourth does not matter, theres no deep consipricey to it if you accept this then fine, if not life go's on and you can keep questioning minor issues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 I'll agree to disagree. I'm still not convinced Mahraj would make a special rule only for him. I mean, after Banda Singh, other Sikh Sardars who faced probably even a worse time were all married whether it be Navab Kapur Singh, Sultan ul Kaum Jassa Singh Ahluwalia or the various misl Sardars. Marriage didn't stop any of them from punishing the Malesh or even fighting for Azadi. Differences between him and a few of the top Singhs was only in my opinion because of the meat issue and battle tactics. After his death, writers began writing all sorts of other reason which quite honestly don't make a whole lot of sense. But his ultimate downfall happened as Banda Singh said it in his own words that he was being divinely punished because he was sent to punish the Malesh, but he had over done the punishment for which he had to pay with his life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Mithar, there were many celibate mahapursh/bhramgyani during guru maharaj's time to name few- baba budda ji, baba sri chand maharaj, some say- baba deep singh ji was also an celibate. In Gurmat, both gristh jeevan and behingum(celibacy) is parvaan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Mithar, there were many celibate mahapursh/bhramgyani during guru maharaj's time to name few- baba budda ji, baba sri chand maharaj, baba banda singh bahudar, some say- baba deep singh ji was also an celibate. In Gurmat, both gristh jeevan and behingum(celibacy) is parvaan. But those Mahpursh were celibate out of their OWN free will not because they had a special rule made specially for them alone and no one else. That is what i'm trying to discuss here. Why would Banda Bahadur alone have this rule imposed on him and no one else? He may have made some mistakes no doubt but marriage is certainly not one of them in Gurmat point of view or any other point of view for that matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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